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Dear CAOD...i have a question

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RedSplat Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:03:00 - [1] Edited by: RedSplat on 21/12/2008 01:05:13 Evening CAOD There is something bothering me. Scroll to the bottom for my question in red text if you have a short attention. I promise its not complicated, i even highlighted certain bits so even Goons don't miss the key points; you boys have fallen far from the tree haven't you (please don't derail the thread ). (more)Boring stuff starts here. Large 0.0 alliances fight large 0.0 alliances. Smaller forces nap them, attack them and are swiftly crushed or get given a shiny new collar of their very own along with a patch of crappy space, in return they are meatshields making it less likely that the core of an empire can ever be significantly threatened. When large entity's clash the losses, on paper so to speak, seem considerable. But powerful alliances have resources so vast (in practice essentially unlimited?) Take BoB for example- do they even have enough pilots that they could field even a fraction of their wealth in a campaign?) that they can afford to replace entire capfleets many times over and it is not uncommon for there to be spares hanging around for just that eventuality. So it is exceedingly unlikely that one powerful alliance can inflict decisive damage on another or similar or comparable power bloc. The presence of outposts, Sov. 4 systems, the current linking of POS to Sov. and Cyno networks/Titan Bridges give a serious advantage to the defenders in any conflict while making it easier for groups to claim larger areas of space; sometimes of no benefit besides the having, or as buffer regions or sometimes productive areas that represent a considerable economic boon. My question is How are current game features and the political landscape of 0.0 conductive to anything but stagnation? There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Faekurias Caldari Black Legion Command Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:15:00 - [2] Until the "old guard" dies it will be pretty lame. If/when. ------------------ Recruiting..
Milkman Dani Gallente RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:22:00 - [3] Curse is fun though. Love Curse.
Rejected Enlightenment Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club Otherworld Empire Productions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:31:00 - [4] Originally by: RedSplat How are current game features and the political landscape of 0.0 conductive to anything but stagnation? Currently, they're not. Major 0.0 powerblocs are able to run massive areas of 0.0 space with little risk of being attacked by anything other than another 0.0 bloc, and as this seems to be :effort: most people are content just to wait it out and not really do anything conductive to changing the political landscape of the game.
laotse Gallente The Flying Dutchmen	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:53:00 - [5] Edited by: laotse on 21/12/2008 01:55:25 as long there are moons giving isk in this game at the same place the stale you talk about still happening it is time that ccp put all dyspro moons at different locations . if they dont do that eve will be the same even after all people from beta will be old
Misanth Amarr RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:38:00 - [6] You also have to define on what level you want a response. From the individual-, corp-, or alliance perspective? (and I do assume all of them that replies do have an interest in 0.0, it'd be pointless to bring in high- and low-sec variables). Why? Because on a personal level things might never be an issue. Put it this way, if I was leading an alliance that wanted a piece of 0.0, I would worry about getting enough attendance to run PvP ops, get some active and decent FC's, and ultimately I might be worried about getting kicked out by force from 0.0. But from a personal level, I can easily overcome those issues by moving to a corporation that is part of a bigger powerblock. Another dimension, if we consider the personal level, is to ask yourself what you want out of 0.0. I'll illustrate it again; on a personal level, I have spent my whole EVE career (3year+) based out of low- and nullsec. Currently I live in low sec, and I have an interest in 0.0. Does 0.0 provide what I want/need? Yes it does. Will that change, no matter if one or several powerblocks control all of it or not? Not really, no. Thus you might want to argue that it's not a major concern for the average joe that powerblock A, B and C, or just simply A and noone else, controls all/parts of 0.0. Sov mechanics is non-issue for the average joe. At least it is, in my case. Hell, I could live without t2 items. I did it most of 2006 when modules were really silly expensive, I can do it again. So, as I see it, the question is what tradeoffs an alliance leader can go with, to maintain interest for his members, but also build himself a little hometurf in zero zero. It might be worth to sell your butt, or lie, and decieve, even bigger powerblocks.. for your own long-term interests. I think people tend to paint things way too black and white at times. And alot of people might forget that EVE is a game that eventually, one day, will die. No matter what. So it's also a question if you think you got a reasonable amount of time to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve. It's not that hard to live in 0.0 without owning stations or sovereignity. It cost you more, but is it really a necessity to own space? Furthermore, NPC space is the pwnz, always have been, always will.
Enjia Fullblood Gallente Black Serpent Technologies Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:50:00 - [7] study the sov map, and you will see that you have no idea what you are talking about, space changes hands all the time. alliances come and go. and if a large alliance can't be taken out, soon the leaders get bored, got off to another game and the alliances dissolve, or they get caught cheating and get banned. =P
Proteaus Minmatar modro B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Proteaus on 21/12/2008 12:41:27 If you actualy look at most if not all of the major updates and content added to EVE , you will see that all these added stuff does is makes (what I like to refer to as )the large 0.0 hog alliance's strangle grip on 0.0 even stronger.There are large sections of 0.0 not ever used but it is claimed.One of the main reasons I feel this is so is because its not that the sov alliance wants to use them but to deny their use to any one else. They need to limit how many sov systems one alliance can control, because even though the names of the alliances change its still the same people controling 0.0 that have always controled it, and all that faction wars is , is an attempt to get people to forget that they are not allowed into 0.0 Peoteaus PS: What they need to do is make a new server because that way any one who wants to start on even footing with every one else could go there .We wouldnt have to worry about the 0.0 hogs on the old server because they have become so spoiled they wouldnt last on a new server:)
RedSplat Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:27:00 - [9] Edited by: RedSplat on 21/12/2008 13:28:21 Originally by: Enjia Fullblood study the sov map, and you will see that you have no idea what you are talking about, space changes hands all the time. alliances come and go. and if a large alliance can't be taken out, soon the leaders get bored, got off to another game and the alliances dissolve, or they get caught cheating and get banned. =P I have studied the sov map. I have also looked at older third party maps of sov and from what i can see while the outline of a given alliances territory changes shape or rather the borders move back and forth, there is no significant deviation from the situation described in the OP post and the primary power blocs are essentially fixed entitys. Out of (further) interest how much of an uproar would a complete re-set of Sov and the destruction of every POS and outpost in Lowsec/null/high(?) cause? I am personaly against a complete server reset and think a second server would be a mistake....but does 0.0 need to be broken up by an arbitrary and unbiased hand; like CCP? and please no Band of Devs jokes.. Would this be best done by changing the locations of Dispro moons? Having Jove forces invade and simply kick the hell out of certain systems; arent we due a in game event like that? Do those that live in 0.0 and have been around since beta prefer the current circumstances or would they like a return to the earlier days of Eve where everything is still up for grabs and there arent any (or more likely not AS many) napfests? All issues i would be interested to hear the opinions of highups from the larger allainces on, then again i want lots of things i cant have edited for spelling There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Lister Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:38:00 - [10] Edited by: Lister on 21/12/2008 13:43:35 Originally by: laotse Edited by: laotse on 21/12/2008 01:55:25 as long there are moons giving isk in this game at the same place the stale you talk about still happening it is time that ccp put all dyspro moons at different locations . They should do like it used to be in SWG and that is have the resouces change randomly. This could be done by each moon having a finite resource, and when its gone its gone (and respawned elsewhere in the universe) and being replaced randomly with something else. This would give explorers something real to do as well, in the form of selling locations. On the main topic - there is always room for fun, however if you fun is the ever changing politics of Eve then I can see how it could look stale right now. Change always comes from within - people can only take so mucn boredom then they will either leave or they will look to change the situation. You see - the current Eve situation will change soon.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.21 16:21:00 - [11] Edited by: Janu Hull on 21/12/2008 16:24:00 Edited by: Janu Hull on 21/12/2008 16:21:19 Originally by: Lister Edited by: Lister on 21/12/2008 13:43:35 Originally by: laotse Edited by: laotse on 21/12/2008 01:55:25 as long there are moons giving isk in this game at the same place the stale you talk about still happening it is time that ccp put all dyspro moons at different locations . They should do like it used to be in SWG and that is have the resouces change randomly. This could be done by each moon having a finite resource, and when its gone its gone (and respawned elsewhere in the universe) and being replaced randomly with something else. This would give explorers something real to do as well, in the form of selling locations. On the main topic - there is always room for fun, however if you fun is the ever changing politics of Eve then I can see how it could look stale right now. Change always comes from within - people can only take so mucn boredom then they will either leave or they will look to change the situation. You see - the current Eve situation will change soon. And here's why that won't fly, even though it looks good on paper. What is the #1 biggest complaint point about the sovreignty game, whether you're one of the superpowers (BoB,AAA,Goonswarm) all the way down to burnouts heading back to empire? POSes. They are the **ing bane of 0.0 logistics, but they are ultimately the fulcrum of the whole ordeal. Its difficult enough just getting a patch of dirt secured in the first place, getting the supply chains in reasonable working order, and finally making something out of it that sustains an alliance. But now, one of the most expansive forms of POS slavery we deal with, you want to go and turn into a lottery? Pass. I'd rather go a year trying to pry a Dyspro moon out of Goon's or BoB's hands than spend a year chasing Dyspro spawns all over 0.0, putting up, servicing, breaking down, moving, setting up again, servicing, breaking down, moving, setting up a set of damned moon mining POSes. Ye Gods, you think the current system gets on your nerves, wait till you have a go with that kind of operation. Your alliances' logistics backbones will shatter under the pressure before the second respawn cycle is out.\ EDIT: At the very least, you can kiss goodbye ever bothering your industrial players ever X-ing up again. Chasing randomly relocating spawns will become a massive fulltime job, to say nothing of the insane time sink of setting the POS modules up. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.**
fishblades Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.21 16:54:00 - [12] Nothing is stopping a bunch of small unaffiliated alliances banding together to create a new power bloc.
Manfred Sideous Amarr H A V O C	Posted - 2008.12.21 17:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Enjia Fullblood study the sov map, and you will see that you have no idea what you are talking about, space changes hands all the time. alliances come and go. and if a large alliance can't be taken out, soon the leaders get bored, got off to another game and the alliances dissolve, or they get caught cheating and get banned. =P Ok lets study it. Delve area - Bobs owned it for like years Impass - AAA had it for 2 years Tribute - MM has had it forever Tenal/Branch - Razor Pretty much the same stuff keeps happening. Circle Jerk in Napfest ! If someone threatens your space. 1) Bring your buddy his buddy his second cousin and the cousins dog. 2) Fight a lil 3) When the opponent realizes its futile 4) Exclaim how awesome you are on COAD 5) Profit ______________________________
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:30:00 - [14] Correct me if I am wrong, but a big stagnation contributing factor is the nano nerf. Prior to the nerf, a alliance like Pandemic Legion that excelled at nano gangs, could and did force a alliance out of their sovereign space (Bruce). With the speed gone, I suspect we will see less fast moving gangs disrupting a alliances space and thus leading to more boredom (for pvp pilots). CCP still fails at times to have a clear idea of what blocs of players want and pushes for a more homogeneous play style that really disenfranchises the older more highly skilled pilot. Forced mediocrity is not what players want as they rise through the skill tree. It takes a group like Bob to come out with their Max campaign to stir us up from our mining/ratting/exploration/POS fueling ennui and get the blood flowing.
Popperr Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:33:00 - [15] the only thing that ever matters is originality
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:06:00 - [16] Originally by: RedSplat My question is How are current game features and the political landscape of 0.0 conductive to anything but stagnation? Not sure about stagnation, all the major powers have been involved in significant wars recently. I think most of the complaints come from those in smaller corps/alliances who want a piece of the contested space pie but not fight large scale fights. If you just like small scale fights and no capitals then you don't need the resources of conquerable space. It is unlikely you will suffer casualties in the trillions with a roaming gang. A lot of the large power blocs have risen to power as a consequence of BoB. BoB will push people around if they can, people have learned that they need to have the firepower to stop being pushed around. CCP can lower the size of corps and alliances but that may result in just many informal alliances. There is lots of things they can do to make the game friendlier to smaller alliances, however, there can't be significant change to sov, jammers, etc without making the game prone to being controlled by alarm clock ops.
RedSplat Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Veldya Not sure about stagnation, all the major powers have been involved in significant wars recently. So which Major Powers have been involved in wars recently that have had a clear loser; and by that i mean one whom has suffered serious damage that they cant repair ovenight? Is your definition of significant in this context simply taking into account ship losses etc... and not how much of a blow to a given power bloc said losses were in reality? There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Magna Star Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Lrrp Correct me if I am wrong, but a big stagnation contributing factor is the nano nerf. Prior to the nerf, a alliance like Pandemic Legion that excelled at nano gangs, could and did force a alliance out of their sovereign space (Bruce). With the speed gone, I suspect we will see less fast moving gangs disrupting a alliances space and thus leading to more boredom (for pvp pilots). This is wrong. HACs now warp 30% faster so it is faster for Nano gangs to travel then before the nerf. The problem (as has been pointed out a million times) is that an alliance can hold a huge amount of space relatively easily due to JB, Cyno Beacons, Jump Clones, Titan bridge, Carriers, and Jump Freighters.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.21 21:22:00 - [19] Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: Veldya Not sure about stagnation, all the major powers have been involved in significant wars recently. So which Major Powers have been involved in wars recently that have had a clear loser; and by that i mean one whom has suffered serious damage that they cant repair ovenight? IAC. They had Catch forever, and lost it recently under a reshuffled AAA juggernaut. Red Alliance splintered into a myriad of lesser alliances, eliminating what was arguably a the second most massive player in the Goon/BoB war. Triumvirate v1.0 had Deklein for a while before its first failure cascade. Roadkill/SMASH was flattened by Goonswarm. The map is still in motion, you have a few really massive superpowers that aren't going anywhere, shy of internal strife, but that doesn't imply the game is over by a long shot. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
RedSplat Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.21 22:13:00 - [20] Edited by: RedSplat on 21/12/2008 22:14:00 Originally by: Janu Hull Red Alliance splintered into a myriad of lesser alliances, eliminating what was arguably a the second most massive player in the Goon/BoB war. Triumvirate v1.0 had Deklein for a while before its first failure cascade. Roadkill/SMASH was flattened by Goonswarm. The map is still in motion, you have a few really massive superpowers that aren't going anywhere, shy of internal strife, but that doesn't imply the game is over by a long shot. So, AAA, Goons and BoB smashing alliances that were smaller than they are (they were smaller werent they?). When one of those three bite the dust i'll certainly take notice, untill then as you say the largest powers arent going anywhere at the moment- to me when the situation is static in tha tmanner and there is no sign of such changing that says to me that the game is over. Is it even possible for BoB to wipe out the Goons anymore? Or Goons vs AAA or any combination of such? Does alliance income outstrip what can be considered to be reasonable or even unreasonable losses by such a degree of magnitude that ship loss essentially means nothing for them... If so any war between the biggest powerbloc's seems destined to be a slogging match between two people with god mode on and nothing will ever change until CCP /sv_cheats 0 There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Minigin Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.22 00:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Rejected Enlightenment Originally by: RedSplat How are current game features and the political landscape of 0.0 conductive to anything but stagnation? Currently, they're not. Major 0.0 powerblocs are able to run massive areas of 0.0 space with little risk of being attacked by anything other than another 0.0 bloc, and as this seems to be :effort: most people are content just to wait it out and not really do anything conductive to changing the political landscape of the game. and the irony of this post is that in other threads you seem more than happy enough to belittle the efforts of other groups that try to break this stagnency. "im viper ****zel... im joining the NC... rararararar" . MINIGIN! The original colour poster - now surrounding you in limegreen.
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.12.22 02:57:00 - [22] Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: Veldya Not sure about stagnation, all the major powers have been involved in significant wars recently. So which Major Powers have been involved in wars recently that have had a clear loser; and by that i mean one whom has suffered serious damage that they cant repair ovenight? Is your definition of significant in this context simply taking into account ship losses etc... and not how much of a blow to a given power bloc said losses were in reality? NC was primarily formed of MM, Razor, IRON, Pure and Hydra. In the conflict with BoB Pure and Hydra bit the dust and IRON collapsed. Territory in Deklein, Pure Blind, Fade, Vale and Geminate were lost. Perhaps you need to define what you consider to be serious damage because 3 out of 5 alliances and 5 regions seems pretty significant in my books.
Virum Acuedalla Amarr Unity Of Legends Manifest Destiny.	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Virum Acuedalla on 22/12/2008 12:56:20 Yea with lots of dyspro moons to fund there war machine it can stay this way untill enough pilots go up against them. Way i see it, CCP should introduce moons having a static amount of certain materials.. like for instance the way asteroids only have a certain amount of ore before it dissapears. then respawns again the next day, but with moons id say make it respawn every couple months..(the moon stays there obviously.. just the materials dont) that gives people the chance to take space and it can be ever changing. my 2 cents
RedSplat Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.22 13:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Veldya NC was primarily formed of MM, Razor, IRON, Pure and Hydra. In the conflict with BoB Pure and Hydra bit the dust and IRON collapsed. Territory in Deklein, Pure Blind, Fade, Vale and Geminate were lost. Perhaps you need to define what you consider to be serious damage because 3 out of 5 alliances and 5 regions seems pretty significant in my books. Ah, interesting. Picking up past history from CAOD is...problematic at best. Thanks There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
O Thief Amarr The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.22 13:26:00 - [25] Edited by: O Thief on 22/12/2008 13:27:49 Originally by: Lrrp Correct me if I am wrong, but a big stagnation contributing factor is the nano nerf. Prior to the nerf, a alliance like Pandemic Legion that excelled at nano gangs, could and did force a alliance out of their sovereign space (Bruce). With the speed gone, I suspect we will see less fast moving gangs disrupting a alliances space and thus leading to more boredom (for pvp pilots). CCP still fails at times to have a clear idea of what blocs of players want and pushes for a more homogeneous play style that really disenfranchises the older more highly skilled pilot. Forced mediocrity is not what players want as they rise through the skill tree. It takes a group like Bob to come out with their Max campaign to stir us up from our mining/ratting/exploration/POS fueling ennui and get the blood flowing. er... you're citing the only possible example of one alliance forcing another from their space through primarily attacking them with nano ships. and They didn't force them out, so much as BRUCE failcascaded internally. Also, I'd hardly call BRUCE an 'established 0.0 powerbloc' of the kind described by the OP. PL were successful opportunists and they deserve credit for that, but you simply cannot claim that nanogangs were effective in removing people from their space based on that sole example. So, consider yourself corrected because your assertion that nanogangs could conquer the 0.0 powerblocs is wrong. If it could, MM would have fallen long ago (look at how much you lost to daily TRI Mk I nanogangs back in the day, and yet... you still have your space). edit: and yes, to break things up I'd add dynamic moons of fixed but variable mineral amounts and random respawns, all over 0.0 and lowsec... the current static system is outdated and should go the way of static complexes
Deagon Droga Caldari The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.22 15:06:00 - [26] I've spent over two years training on this character. I'd leave that all behind in a second if there was a new server! I might keep the character and play it for fun, but, I would definately be starting a main and an alt on the new server. Tranquility is fully owned and operated by the big powers. It's just that simple. They own the moons and have control of the markets. There is no end game for the average player on Tranq. you can't slide...UPHILL
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.22 15:08:00 - [27] Originally by: O Thief Edited by: O Thief on 22/12/2008 13:27:49 Originally by: Lrrp Correct me if I am wrong, but a big stagnation contributing factor is the nano nerf. Prior to the nerf, a alliance like Pandemic Legion that excelled at nano gangs, could and did force a alliance out of their sovereign space (Bruce). With the speed gone, I suspect we will see less fast moving gangs disrupting a alliances space and thus leading to more boredom (for pvp pilots). CCP still fails at times to have a clear idea of what blocs of players want and pushes for a more homogeneous play style that really disenfranchises the older more highly skilled pilot. Forced mediocrity is not what players want as they rise through the skill tree. It takes a group like Bob to come out with their Max campaign to stir us up from our mining/ratting/exploration/POS fueling ennui and get the blood flowing. er... you're citing the only possible example of one alliance forcing another from their space through primarily attacking them with nano ships. and They didn't force them out, so much as BRUCE failcascaded internally. Also, I'd hardly call BRUCE an 'established 0.0 powerbloc' of the kind described by the OP. PL were successful opportunists and they deserve credit for that, but you simply cannot claim that nanogangs were effective in removing people from their space based on that sole example. So, consider yourself corrected because your assertion that nanogangs could conquer the 0.0 powerblocs is wrong. If it could, MM would have fallen long ago (look at how much you lost to daily TRI Mk I nanogangs back in the day, and yet... you still have your space). First off the OP said nothing about "established" alliances. On the other hand Bruce was one of the largest alliances and they were established in Fountain. While it is true the leaving of FOOM put the nail in the coffin, One could argue that the relentless incursions by PL lead to FOOMs departure. However tho, this post is not about Bruce but the continual process by CCP to homogenize the game to the point of mediocrity. I suppose it will take someone from PL to post as to how effective their small gang incursions are against larger alliances nowadays. PL was always effective at run and gun tactics that disrupted anyone's space. PL was like a flash flood sweeping through a small summer pond, stirring up the algae and moving the sediments. In short the game needs pilots and groups of pilots that really excel at what they do. If CCP keeps chopping back innovation we might as well play any old mmorph. How long before the whiners start crying it is not fair that they loose their precious ship and CCP should introduce some sort of a respawn scheme?
O Thief Amarr The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.22 15:22:00 - [28] Well, we can break down 0.0 into 4 moon-rich powerblocs (NC, Drone Russians, GBC, Goon & Co), and one smaller entity who could only realisitically be removed by one of the powerblocs due to also owning lots of moons and being immune to large-scale cap losses (PL). BRUCE were a large but also largely ineffective alliance, especially when it came to shooting things. There is simply no way that nanogangs now or in the past can remove a half-capable entity from 0.0 - and given that the vast majority of 0.0 is owned by a Powerbloc or associated pet to whom the powerbloc will provide assistance, you have stagnation. Only the powerblocs can challenge a powerbloc, and even there then is not a single example of any powerbloc killing off another powebloc. There are lots of potential solutions to this, all of them quite radical and likely to run into much resistance.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.22 18:18:00 - [29] Edited by: Orange Faeces on 22/12/2008 18:20:09 So, you don't like powerblocs or stagnation? Don't like being on the outside of the decision making or profit? Well, maybe you'll recognize yourself in the video below. You're the one with a red flag and a black face mask. g8 protestors get the beatz Sadly, these people tend... to smell. Enjoy your rage. edit: Brought to you by... THE INTERNET. O. Faeces --- The Other Orange
Trellish Amarr Ten Ton Hammer Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.12.22 18:39:00 - [30] Edited by: Trellish on 22/12/2008 18:41:47 sooooo... You want a new server so that you have the chance to form your own powerbloc? I'm still not clear as to what prevents you from doing it on this server. Another guy did point out that nothing's preventing another block from forming. Also, as to the "nothings happened" among the powerblocks... I grant I wasn't here then, but what I read seemed to imply that in goons and bob's early battles, goons did ultimately lose and received some aid/space from RA from when they were enabled to regroup and become a major power again. Not trying to do a goons vs bob thing here (and I admit that was a while ago), but boy does that seem to me as if it's an example of exactly what you're talking about... a major power having had a significant deleterious effect on another major power. On the same order... wasn't that why goonfleet was formed in the first place? To take on BOB, the then current major powerbloc? They seem to have done ok to me... even if they kicked me out of the space I lived in a few months back. Anyway, my point is... the opportunity exists here and now to do these things. These things weren't only possible a long time ago, there's really nothing preventing it from happening now. The real answer is that most groups that try to build themselves up like this end up with an internal failcascade. It's HARD to manage a massive powerbloc like that... quite frankly, not eveyone can do it. And even if you have a leader who has the capacity to do it, you still have to have people who are capable of following them. A large powerblock has it's own "humps" that have to be crossed, and frankly most fail at crossing them. Most groups are made up of a crapload of people who all want to be leaders, and few people who understand that you have to have followed before you can lead. Is it a suprise that groups that have managed to form a bloc are now working towards keeping that bloc? A certain amount of stability is only expected. There's plenty of groups working to destabilize things too.
Shamis Orzoz Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.22 18:41:00 - [31] It is too easy to move around. Between pos jump bridging, titan jump bridging, and jump clones, there is really no way to get the jump on somebody. Combine that with long pos timers, and you could invade somebody's space while they were 200 jumps away, and they'd still be able to get their entire alliance back before you kill a single tower.
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.22 19:02:00 - [32] Maybe one day a player owned alliance can achieve the same status as an NPC empire? If EVE continues to grow it certainly could be a possibility in the very distant future. If it continues to grow that is... --- Put in space whales!
VCBee80085 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.22 19:16:00 - [33] I think you overestimate the value of 0.0 tbh. Most of it is a barren, worthless wasteland and the systems that hold no value outnumbered the few scattered systems where an average pilot can actually make more ratting than empire mission running. Moon mining is the primary value of 0.0 for big alliances and the random allocation of moons means space can vary in value significantly. When you factor in the time spent and isk spent by logistics people to hold all that space, I think you realize that most regions are only turning a fairly medicore profit - its certainly not an endless isk fountain that will enable you to lose 50 cap ships every day. When it comes to cap ships and super cap ships, don't forget that the raw isk is often the easiest part of the deal. You can't lose those 50 cap ships and then just go to the dread store and press a button to turn your 100b isk into 50 new dreads. The contract market for cap ships can be very low supply and after big fights, there can be literally zero dreads for sale in the entire game. It takes massive amounts of logistical work to have the production needed to replace those kind of losses and titans take literally hundreds of freighters worth of low ends to build. You are right that the current setup of 0.0 means that defending is usually easier than attacking.
Xiong Yoshi Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.22 19:26:00 - [34] Nano's versus Cyno Jammer Deathstar - How many Nano hacs (prior to nano nerf) would it have taken to kill a cyno jammer on a deathstar.... that happened to be protected by a Titan? I'm thinking that the Nano nerf (roughly 1 month old) did nothing to create stagnation (which people have complained about for a long time). Moving the rare moon minerals around is a good idea on it's own, but I can't see RAZOR/MM/BOB/GOOONS giving up their SOV just because a few moons went dry. More likely those moons would just respawn to a different moon in their SOV and the individual members of that specific power block would want to keep POSs up everywhere in the hopes of scoring a rare mineral spawn on their personal POS. I see a lot of people say that it is the Jump Bridges, Jump Clones, etc that lead to the stagnation - I disagree. If alliances couldn't move around then the powerblock would encourage it's members to stay home and rat as opposed to trying to mount a huge offensive on the other side of the map. There might be more roaming gangs active - but huge cap fleet combats of the sort seen in E-O this fall would be a thing of the past. No powerblock would want to take its cap fleet so far away from home if their pilots couldn't JC back or if Jump Bridges didn't allow for re-entry into important jammed systems. Resetting the server or putting up a new server? No thanks. It would probably be a lot of fun starting the game afresh with everyone, but unless there were major changes to some aspect of the game.. It would have to be along the lines of completely new SOV mechanics + completely new corp/alliance mechanics + completely new Standings mechanics.. and maybe new skill learning mechanics on top of that... without this kind of major change, it'd be hard to justify a reset as being anything other than cold shoulder to those who have been with the game for years. And to finally answer the OP's question: They aren't - but they probably aren't supposed to be. You call it stagnation, but in reality the game is a living world which evolves over time. Any of the major powerblocks can be removed pretty quickly - all it needs is for another powerblock to have the resources and willpower to do so. ------------------------------------------------ There are only two types of ships: those which have blown up; and those which will.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.12.22 19:57:00 - [35] I think the biggest issues with 0.0 and power blocks are from the people on the outside looking in. First I would say the biggest issue is that every up & comming corp and nupty alliance thinks they have some kind of god given right to own a chunk of 0.0, This is not so. You have to be willing to fight tooth and nail for it, To wake up for an alarm clock op at 4 am when uve got work at 6. To completly exhaust your resources and still press on. And even all that that wont guarentee success. To steal a quote, "no sacrifice, no victory" Look at the established power blocks. They have fought with everything they have to gain control of their space. And you think what? you should beable to come and undo that in what a day? a week? 2 weeks time? They have fought for years to establish what they have, and it should be quite an undertaking to dislodge them. Look at what happened to Bob & Co last year, They were pushed back into one region. They Went into an alamo style of fighting. The aggressors eventually got bored, and went home. BOB & their pets were removed from every other region they had. Had the coalition succeded in breaking their morale in delve, BoB would just be a part of EVE history today. And i think most of the people have a great misconception that 0.0 powerblocks have trillions upon trillions laying about and just hand out ships by the hundreds to get blown up. That all the regular members can simply throw around isk like a footbal. This is simply not true. You dont see the unsung heros of the alliances, The average members. Who do their part and X's up for gangs and CTA's. The guys who lose their BS and then have to go rat, mine or mission to replace it. Sure some of the old garde who have been playing since beta can lose hundreds of ships with out batting an eye. But they are not the average player in any alliance. Also anyone who thinks that small gang roaming warfare is dead is a friggen idiot. Theirs always hostile gangs roaming around Established space, Killing **. And as has been said a few time, theres nothing to stop a bunch of third rate alliances from simply banding together and pushing out another alliance. The people who are calling for random redistribution of moon minerals are missing a huge point too. High end moons is truly the icing on the cake for any alliance. Its really the only profit that comes out of the entire bull** that is the POS system. Randomizing the moon mins makes little to no sense from both a realistic and gameplay stand point. The impact it would have on the markets would be catastrophic & we would be back to the days of 90m isk cov ops cloaks and other retartedly expensive t2 mods. If 0.0 is so stagnant (which i disagree) Then it is only due to human nature, Not because of POS or high end moons. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Magna Star Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.22 22:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Xiong Yoshi I see a lot of people say that it is the Jump Bridges, Jump Clones, etc that lead to the stagnation - I disagree....There might be more roaming gangs active - but huge cap fleet combats...would be a thing of the past. No powerblock would want to take its cap fleet so far away from home... So you are for keeping things the same so we can have less active roaming gangs, huge massive blobs that kill the server, and people will not be able to bring their cap ship from halfway across eve in an instant? I guess if this is your definition of fun, then things in Eve are perfect.
BRooDJeRo Gallente Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 00:57:00 - [37] Originally by: RedSplat My question is How are current game features and the political landscape of 0.0 conductive to anything but stagnation?[/quote Welcome to EvE
HakanSherif Minmatar Amok.	Posted - 2008.12.23 01:44:00 - [38] Fortune favors the bold. There is nothing in this game stopping anyone to start from scratch and form his/her legacy.
Lumen Atra Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.23 13:36:00 - [39] Originally by: RedSplat Edited by: RedSplat on 21/12/2008 22:14:00 Originally by: Janu Hull Red Alliance splintered into a myriad of lesser alliances, eliminating what was arguably a the second most massive player in the Goon/BoB war. Triumvirate v1.0 had Deklein for a while before its first failure cascade. Roadkill/SMASH was flattened by Goonswarm. The map is still in motion, you have a few really massive superpowers that aren't going anywhere, shy of internal strife, but that doesn't imply the game is over by a long shot. So, AAA, Goons and BoB smashing alliances that were smaller than they are (they were smaller werent they?). When one of those three bite the dust i'll certainly take notice, untill then as you say the largest powers arent going anywhere at the moment- to me when the situation is static in tha tmanner and there is no sign of such changing that says to me that the game is over. Is it even possible for BoB to wipe out the Goons anymore? Or Goons vs AAA or any combination of such? Does alliance income outstrip what can be considered to be reasonable or even unreasonable losses by such a degree of magnitude that ship loss essentially means nothing for them... If so any war between the biggest powerbloc's seems destined to be a slogging match between two people with god mode on and nothing will ever change until CCP /sv_cheats 0 The whole problem with your line of questioning is a supposition that there is an end. Why does sov have to change hands for there to be proof that a system works? Why does an alliance have to die to show activity? The real problem with the game, aside from poor networking, is that people think of the game as some sort of shooter or RPG, which is what it is marketed as. In truth, it is an RTS game, where each unit is controlled by an individual, and there are many sides. People don't play it like an RTS, and so the strategy involved is unimaginative, lackluster, and long winded. Some of the game mechanics also push things into the long winded category, but those mechanics wouldn't be as noticeable if more people tackled it as an RTS game.
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.12.23 15:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Deagon Droga I've spent over two years training on this character. I'd leave that all behind in a second if there was a new server! I might keep the character and play it for fun, but, I would definately be starting a main and an alt on the new server. Tranquility is fully owned and operated by the big powers. It's just that simple. They own the moons and have control of the markets. There is no end game for the average player on Tranq. I don't think it would matter. You make it sound like there is a lack of opportunity. There isn't. There is just a lack of leadership. The reason the current powerblocs exist and survive is because of good leadership. The reason smaller alliances survive and thrive is because of good leadership. If you go to a new server you are likely going to be left behind by better leaders eventually. Like most of the players we have seen so many corps and alliances rise and fall. Invariably it is not a lack of opportunity that sees them fail, it is greed, poor management, poor leadership skills, poor communication skills, mild to severe psychological disorders and the like. There have been some great alliances that have just self-destructed due to incompetence. Current powerblocs exist only because of BoB. They have and continue to plow through people not big enough to stand against them. It has seen the arms race to get to that size. The good leaders knew what they had to achieve to survive. This has caused issues for smaller corps and alliances but there have not been a shortage of opportunity. You just have to be very careful of who you **** off and in what circumstances. Some poor judgement decisions are often fatal.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.23 19:05:00 - [41] Originally by: Veldya Current powerblocs exist only because of BoB. YOU ARE A GENIUS! And here I was wondering when someone would come along and explain it all to me. TYVM! Everyone should read this. O. Faeces --- The Other Orange
BeefSupreme Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.23 19:27:00 - [42] Grow a spine, and get in on the action. You can either pick a powerbloc to back, or go your own way and try to take a slice of the 0.0 pie. Start off in NPC 0.0, and move on from there. Goons did it, and we're useless ******s.

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