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Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:20:00 - [1] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/12/2008 07:19:53 After flying a Paladin for the last few months, I came to realise its salvage potential is a waste of time when you have a rigged Catalyst at hand to do the job faster. I think all Marauders are in need of a slight boost these days: Golem: Needs the Raven's ROF bonus to mitigate the missile changes and make it worthwhile over the Navy Raven which is still arguably better. Kronos: Needs a 125m3(or 100m3 at least) drone bay so its DPS can match the Hyperion. Vargur: Definitely needs a powergrid boost so it can field the heavy artillery. Paladin: Needs a tracking bonus to better compete with the Nightmare. Please tear these suggestions down if you like. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:21:00 - [2] Varguar, maybe. As for the others; why do they have to be better than those ships? Surely if those ships are cheaper and better, buy them instead. -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban)
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Ralarina Varguar, maybe. As for the others; why do they have to be better than those ships? Surely if those ships are cheaper and better, buy them instead. I'm not trying to argue from a PVE point of view per se.. I think they'd be more likely to be used in PVP if they had these bonuses. And I've been itching to fly one in PVP but of course it's still incredibly idiotic when you consider the price. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Ralarina Varguar, maybe. As for the others; why do they have to be better than those ships? Surely if those ships are cheaper and better, buy them instead. I'm not trying to argue from a PVE point of view per se.. I think they'd be more likely to be used in PVP if they had these bonuses. And I've been itching to fly one in PVP but of course it's still incredibly idiotic when you consider the price. Because of the low sensor strength, they wont be used in PvP all that much. They are designed as PvE ships. -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban)
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:29:00 - [5] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/12/2008 07:29:03 Originally by: Ralarina Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Ralarina Varguar, maybe. As for the others; why do they have to be better than those ships? Surely if those ships are cheaper and better, buy them instead. I'm not trying to argue from a PVE point of view per se.. I think they'd be more likely to be used in PVP if they had these bonuses. And I've been itching to fly one in PVP but of course it's still incredibly idiotic when you consider the price. Because of the low sensor strength, they wont be used in PvP all that much. They are designed as PvE ships. With all the Falcons flying around, an extra +10 base sensor strength will not save you anyway. I've flown a dual eccm'd Rokh, Geddon, and Mega before and they all get nicely jammed by a Falcon. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:44:00 - [6] Originally by: Ralarina Varguar, maybe. As for the others; why do they have to be better than those ships? Surely if those ships are cheaper and better, buy them instead. Marauders should be the premier mission running ships. There should be nothing better for running missions than a Marauder. That being said, they absolutely SUCK for running missions when compared to other ships, particularly taking into account ISK and opportunity cost. The whole concept of a salvaging while you mission BS is flawed. Remove the T-beam bonus and give each BS another damage or tracking bonus. Increase the DPS and the damage per ammunition consumption to make them more efficient than other ships at running missions. Peak tank is adequate. What we need now is more peak DPS to run missions faster. And the Vargur needs more grid. It's horrible. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:53:00 - [7] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/12/2008 07:54:21 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Marauders should be the premier mission running ships. There should be nothing better for running missions than a Marauder. That being said, they absolutely SUCK for running missions when compared to other ships, particularly taking into account ISK and opportunity cost. The whole concept of a salvaging while you mission BS is flawed. Remove the T-beam bonus and give each BS another damage or tracking bonus. Increase the DPS and the damage per ammunition consumption to make them more efficient than other ships at running missions. Peak tank is adequate. What we need now is more peak DPS to run missions faster. And the Vargur needs more grid. It's horrible. So hoping this isn't a troll. I think most of the Marauders' DPS is quite good. The Paladin can do 900+ with tachyons or megapulse. The Kronos is capable of 1300 with blasters... below 10km. The Golem and Vargur are pitiful at it though. The Vargur can't fit the guns to deliver the punch and the Golem can't hit hard enough without two or more painters. It certainly can't beat the Navy Raven. The web bonus is officially useless unless used as a PVP tool and the tractor bonus makes the ship inefficient and painfully slow over a dedicated salvage boat. Marauders excel at putting out and tanking an arseload of damage in a short time. I think these strengths should be enhanced and the obsolete bonuses removed. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Towelieban Minmatar Comrades in Construction	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Towelieban on 24/12/2008 07:58:53 Kronos already has a 125m3 dronebay
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Towelieban Edited by: Towelieban on 24/12/2008 07:58:53 Kronos already has a 125m3 dronebay Orly? It's 75m3. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:16:00 - [10] So use a navy raven, a navy mega or whatever. If those ships are cheaper, and better, (and more insurable) then go for them instead of marauders? -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban)
mirel yirrin Gallente Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:16:00 - [11] Wrong Forum. Also no. ---------------------------------
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:20:00 - [12] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/12/2008 08:23:03 Originally by: mirel yirrin Wrong Forum. Also no. Explain your argument against it instead of pronouncing judgement or GTFO. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Ralarina So use a navy raven, a navy mega or whatever. If those ships are cheaper, and better, (and more insurable) then go for them instead of marauders? Then there'd be no reason to build or fly Marauders. They should be useful to fly, it's that simple. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/12/2008 07:57:52 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Marauders should be the premier mission running ships. There should be nothing better for running missions than a Marauder. That being said, they absolutely SUCK for running missions when compared to other ships, particularly taking into account ISK and opportunity cost. The whole concept of a salvaging while you mission BS is flawed. Remove the T-beam bonus and give each BS another damage or tracking bonus. Increase the DPS and the damage per ammunition consumption to make them more efficient than other ships at running missions. Peak tank is adequate. What we need now is more peak DPS to run missions faster. And the Vargur needs more grid. It's horrible. So hoping this isn't a troll. I think most of the Marauders' DPS is quite good. The Paladin can do 900+ with tachyons or megapulse. The Kronos is capable of 1300 with blasters... below 10km. The Golem and Vargur are pitiful at it though. The Vargur can't fit the guns to deliver the punch and the Golem can't hit hard enough without two or more painters. It certainly can't beat the Navy Raven. The web bonus is officially useless unless used as a PVP tool and the tractor bonus makes the ship inefficient and painfully slow over a dedicated salvage boat. Marauders excel at putting out and tanking an arseload of damage in a short time. I think these strengths should be enhanced and the obsolete bonuses removed. Edit: The Golem as a PVE boat is a complete joke! It's designed around the alpha strike of torpdoes. And you won't shoot very far beyond 60km with them provided you have max skills, tech 2 range rigs and javelins. The cruise missile is the premier Caldari battleship PVE weapon. The Golem has no real value over the CNR. No, it's not a troll. Why would it be a troll? The Kronos' effective DPS output as a mission runner (what it's 'made for') is just horrible. No, "1300 DPS from blasters" doesn't count. The Paladin is fairly viable, and the Golem is so-so, but the Vargur and the Kronos are sad replacements for the Maelstrom and Dominix. So what are you arguing for exactly? Marauders to be better at PVP or PVE? The Golem is already the best of the four for PVP. Nothing can beat it's tank/gank once you have a set of crystals installed. The Vargur is still hard as hell to fit. The Paladin is really good, but the Kronos doesn't offer much over what my Abaddon can accomplish. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.24 09:38:00 - [15] If the Vargur had more grid, fitting it with 3 heavy neut and 4 autocanons might be a bit over the top. ------------------------------------------
Neamus	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:19:00 - [16] I only have experience with the Paladin so that's all I'll comment on. I think its a brilliant PvE ship as it stands. It has a huge cargo hold, 40k tractor range, a solid tank and more dps than it knows what to do with. Really, what's not to like? Its expensive yes, but after switching from two separate ships (one a fully rigged salvager) its cut my mission running time nearly in half. Don't get me wrong, sure it would be nice if it had better tracking, but I'm not sure that there's a convincing argument that it needs it.
Gone'Postal Aztec Industry	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:32:00 - [17] Golem is a great PVE ship, I've never had to change my ommitank setup for a mission, Just jump in and undock, Never even been close to losing the ship either. It's damage outout was dropped a little due to the missile changes but overall it's still quicker to run missions with that then a CNR. (using Cruise setup) Buy My Mines!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:41:00 - [18] Edited by: Qui Shon on 24/12/2008 10:44:15 Looks like the real motivation for at least two of the posters in this thread is to get back the 1700dps blaster boat that the Kronos was upon release. Obviously for pvp. Tractor bonus is quite beneficial actually, and certainly worth it from an isk/h perspective. And what's this about a rigged catalyst being faster? That's ridiculous. There is no comparison between the two, in fact, no other ship can come anywhere close to competing with Kronos/Pally when it comes to salvaging. Unless all the wrecks are already gathered into a ball, but for that you've already made use of the tractor bonus. Golem already has a T3 flare rig pre-fitted, "to mitigate the missile changes". Not that it mitigates them, of course, but neither would a ROF bonus. Paladin is decent, and doesn't need to obsolete the Nightmare. Kronos is a bit meh, but still fine if you specialize for it. With just navy guns and lacking the hybrid imp it's not impressive. The only reason Pally/NM are great even with navy guns is because of Tachs, i.e. the guns, not the ships themselves. Vargur, well, I don't use projectiles, but it does seem to need a boost.
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:50:00 - [19] Signal strengths: Chimera: 38.3 Thanatos: 38.9 Nidhoggur: 42.1 Raven: 20.9 Navy Raven: 17.0 Golem: 41.0 Megathron: 19.0 Navy Megathron: 16 Kronos: 38.4 Tempest: 17.9 Fleet Tempest: 16.2 Vargur: 38.6 As long as they basically generate an Overview Beacon to everyone with Frigate 4 and Astrometrics 3, they cannot ever be the best PVE option.
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Ralarina So use a navy raven, a navy mega or whatever. If those ships are cheaper, and better, (and more insurable) then go for them instead of marauders? Then there'd be no reason to build or fly Marauders. They should be useful to fly, it's that simple. Well, it took 3 years for AFs to be useful, over a year for black ops and they're still not useful... Don't hold your breath :D -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban)
Anile8er Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:59:00 - [21] blah
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/12/2008 08:23:03 Originally by: mirel yirrin Wrong Forum. Also no. Explain your argument against it instead of pronouncing judgement or GTFO. this nonsense should be in ships and modules /reported
Angel Lightbringer Caldari Dark Evolution Industries	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The Golem as a PVE boat is a complete joke! It's designed around the alpha strike of torpdoes. And you won't shoot very far beyond 60km with them provided you have max skills, tech 2 range rigs and javelins. The cruise missile is the premier Caldari battleship PVE weapon. The Golem has no real value over the CNR. I laughed so hard I almost woke up the whole block! thinks On the other hand, I'm done explaining the best Caldari PVE ship (along with Cerberus for lower missions) Get back in your CNR, Move along, nothing to see... Hint: Caldari Cruise launchers, regular cruise missiles, t2 med drones. All you need. Oh, and the missile side skills... yeah those help. Done! -Angel
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Angel Lightbringer Edited by: Angel Lightbringer on 24/12/2008 12:22:34 Originally by: Arthur Frayn The Golem as a PVE boat is a complete joke! It's designed around the alpha strike of torpdoes. And you won't shoot very far beyond 60km with them provided you have max skills, tech 2 range rigs and javelins. The cruise missile is the premier Caldari battleship PVE weapon. The Golem has no real value over the CNR. I laughed so hard I almost woke up the whole block! thinks On the other hand, I'm done explaining the best Caldari PVE ship (along with Cerberus for lower missions) Get back in your CNR, Move along, nothing to see... Hint: Caldari Cruise launchers, regular cruise missiles, t2 med drones. All you need. Oh, and the missile side skills... yeah those help. Done! Edit Originally by: Bellum Eternus Marauders should be the premier mission running ships. There should be nothing better for running missions than a Marauder. That being said, they absolutely SUCK for running missions when compared to other ships, particularly taking into account ISK and opportunity cost. Damn, is the whine flavor of the month Marauders now? I was wondering what it was gonna be, but never thought someone would argue about Marauders. Golem is teh DPS, Kronos is teh tank, the other two I have no clue about. They're perfect mission running... I must have warped in a twilight zone here.. Or trollzone... I'm in shock, really! The Kronos doesn't do anything the Hype or Dominix can't already do. Same with the Golem and Vargur. ATM, the only really superior ship is the Paladin, with it's unique combo of tank, slot layout and DPS efficiency. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:58:00 - [25] Originally by: Angel Lightbringer Golem is teh DPS I don't know how you pulled this idea out of your ass with a straight face. CNR has higher DPS than the Golem in all situations. Torps don't have the range(in PVE) to compete, especially when you're firing them out to 30, perhaps 40 km. And if you do go down that road, you can use enough expensive fittings to set up a torp CNR. I'll break it down for you: 7 launchers + 25% ROF bonus > 4 launchers that do the damage of 8 launchers. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Nuuskur	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Angel Lightbringer Golem is teh DPS I don't know how you pulled this idea out of your ass with a straight face. CNR has higher DPS than the Golem in all situations. Torps don't have the range(in PVE) to compete, especially when you're firing them out to 30, perhaps 40 km. And if you do go down that road, you can use enough expensive fittings to set up a torp CNR. I'll break it down for you: 7 launchers + 25% ROF bonus > 4 launchers that do the damage of 8 launchers. 7 launchers + 25% ROF bonus < 4 launchers that do the damage of 8 launchers in killing speed. Torpgolem alpha can still nuke BC's and most cruisers with one volley, provided you use target painters. Torpgolem takes 2-4 volleys to destroy a battleship due to the alpha. Can the CNR increased RoF compete with it when it takes 3-5 volleys for the same thing? PS. 40km torp range is more than enough with the exception of a few specific situations. You just need to fight the right enemies.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Nuuskur PS. 40km torp range is more than enough with the exception of a few specific situations. You just need to fight the right enemies. I run plenty of missions where 40km is half the range of many of the rats. I think you're idea that 40km is long enough range is ridiculous. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Commanderess	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:01:00 - [28] Stealth Amarr nerf thread?

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:10:00 - [29] moved to Ships and Modules from General Discussion Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online

Chillshock	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:18:00 - [30] Are there any NPC except angel who have no 50km orbiting BS? I always fit for "being able to tank 550-600 dps and killing a BS in decent amounts of time at 30-52km". I don't like killing NPCs at 80km cause its a pain to salvage, even with my salvage golem. Getting Torps out to 52km is not quite easy. Try a nightmare or paladin with tachyons.

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