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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:28:00 -
[31]
Easy fix...
- Remove the range bonus on the falcon in favour something else.. i.e Strength bonus to remote ECCM mod bonus.
- Give ECM scripts .. Either range or strength.
- Add stacking penalty to ECM, when used against a single target.
This bring the falcon inline with the Arazu, which is supposed to be its counter.
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Mouji AlMefel
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:32:00 -
[32]
You have a better point for buffing the other ships than nerfing the one people are using. I mean isn't the point of these ships to make gang and fleet battles more interesting and real world? Or am I mistaken and it's really just targeted at people who want to fly big mean blocks of metal around and fire until one ship or the other dies?
It is a pain when someone drops in on you with these guys but how much fun would Eve be if it was a one dimensional game?
I would vote, buff the other EW ships if they need it.
BTW are you really asking for them to make the outside range of the Falcon to be the opt. range of your guns by chance?
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Kurt Ambrose
Caldari
Point Blank.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:43:00 -
[33]
Quick! all falcon pilots get into this thread and flame the OP.
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:48:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: Toshiro Khan
Easy fix...
- Remove the range bonus on the falcon in favour something else.. i.e Strength bonus to remote ECCM mod bonus.
- Give ECM scripts .. Either range or strength.
- Add stacking penalty to ECM, when used against a single target.
This bring the falcon inline with the Arazu, which is supposed to be its counter.
* Give damps racial divisions
* Weaken damps to be unable to do jack when not on specialised ship(boost ship bonus instead) & with lows full of ampifiers
* Remove damage bonus, drone bay and disruptor bonus on arazu
There, Arazu is inline with Falcon 
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I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: FlameGlow
* Give damps racial divisions
OK, as long as 1 or 2 bonused damps can be worth a damn.
Quote:
* Weaken damps to be unable to do jack when not on specialised ship
Already the case. 
Quote:
* Remove damage bonus, drone bay and disruptor bonus on arazu
Make damps useful, and I don't have a problem with that.
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Mickey Simon
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:57:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mouji AlMefel
BTW are you really asking for them to make the outside range of the Falcon to be the opt. range of your guns by chance?
I think that's probably what it's about =P
It's already really easy to make a falcon pilot leave the field if you know what you're doing, it's possible to catch one too if you're sneaky about it.
Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . . |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.12.26 16:12:00 -
[37]
The falcon is totally broken. Give it some tank, speed or DPS. It's a 1 trick pony.
Boost the falcon!
In all seriousness, I want a boost to ECCMs. I want ECCMs to protect the user from being jammed...completely (sub capitals, at least). Even if there was a module to prevent jamming, most people wouldn't fit it. The people that want the falcon nerf'd don't want "balance." THey don't want to ahve to alter thier fits in any way to counter falcons. It has nothing to do with balance.
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.26 16:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: FlameGlow
* Give damps racial divisions
* Weaken damps to be unable to do jack when not on specialised ship(boost ship bonus instead) & with lows full of ampifiers
* Remove damage bonus, drone bay and disruptor bonus on arazu
There, Arazu is inline with Falcon
- sure.. 4 x racial damps that are stronger then they are now and a universal in the same vein as the multispec.
- Already the case.
- Sure.. what do you suggest that is put in the place of the damage bonus? maybe a damp range bonus? to match the bonuses of the Falcon..
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 16:19:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 26/12/2008 16:23:08
Originally by: GateScout
THey don't want to ahve to alter thier fits in any way to counter falcons. It has nothing to do with balance.
Refitting an entire fleet to counter one kind of ship/mod is terrible game design. You know how precious mids are, and there are damn few ships that can drop their MWD or scram or cap injector. Least of all shield tankers.
Funny thing is, of course, Falcons aren't nearly as overpowered as some people seem to think because a Falcon is rarely actually "at range".
Originally by: Mouji AlMefel
BTW are you really asking for them to make the outside range of the Falcon to be the opt. range of your guns by chance?
Well, that's pretty much where all the other recons are stuck
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.12.26 16:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Refitting an entire fleet to counter one kind of ship/mod is terrible game design.
If you're refitting an entire *FLEET* to counter falcons, you're doing it wrong.
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
You know how precious mids are, and there are damn few ships that can drop their MWD or scram or cap injector. Least of all shield tankers.
That's my point. MWD, scrams, sensor booster, cap injectors, shield mods....no one wants to give up those to counter ECM. As I said..it has nothing to do with "balance." Most people don't want to have to alter their fits in any way to deal with ECM. It isn't a balance issue.
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Funny thing is, of course, Falcons aren't nearly as overpowered as some people seem to think because a Falcon is rarely actually "at range".
This is absolutely correct. I would add that most people don't know how falcons are fit or how ECM works.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:17:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 26/12/2008 17:18:43
Originally by: GateScout
If you're refitting an entire *FLEET* to counter falcons, you're doing it wrong.
Small gang. ~15-20 people. Go up against a similar sized gang with 4 falcons without ECCM on ALOT of your ships, and you're ****ed.
Don't give me the ****amamie line about snipers, either. You know as well as I do that snipers will get owned in seconds in a small gang knife-fight.
Quote:
That's my point. MWD, scrams, sensor booster, cap injectors, shield mods....no one wants to give up those to counter ECM. As I said..it has nothing to do with "balance." Most people don't want to have to alter their fits in any way to deal with ECM. It isn't a balance issue.
Sure as hell is a balance issue. You're forced to fit an ECCM just to stay in the fight, meaning you have to drop something else that's pivotal to your acting in the fight: shield tank? disruptor? web? MWD?
Essentially, the Falcon is still reducing the effectiveness ships that DID fit to counter it.
Quote:
This is absolutely correct. I would add that most people don't know how falcons are fit or how ECM works.
And those of us that do, well... some of us STILL think Falcons are pretty damn ridiculous. Just not quite as ridiculous as those who come on this forum and spam falcon whines every hour.
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:25:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Small gang. ~15-20 people. Go up against a similar sized gang with 4 falcons without ECCM on ALOT of your ships, and you're ****ed.
Don't give me the ****amamie line about snipers, either. You know as well as I do that snipers will get owned in seconds in a small gang knife-fight.
All my 15-20 ships and gang members are smart enough to dictate range and where the engagement starts as well as being smart enough to reposition if necessary, so the falcons are either at close range and die or spend all the fight repositioning.
Im sorry you feel you should be able to jump into a 20 man pre-setup camp with your gang of close range wanna be pwn mobiles and not win but that is neither the games or the falcons fault its yours.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:26:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 26/12/2008 17:35:54
Originally by: maralt
All my 15-20 ships and gang members are smart enough to dictate range and where the engagement starts as well as being smart enough to reposition if necessary, so the falcons are either at close range and die or spend all the fight repositioning.
Im sorry you feel you should be able to jump into a 20 man pre-setup camp with your gang of close range wanna be pwn mobiles and not win but that is neither the games or the falcons fault its yours.
It's usually to be avoided. But, sometimes you don't have a choice, Einstein!
Btw, the (two) fights in particular that I'm thinking about, we kicked ass. Oh well. I guess there's something to be said for fitting for the occasion. You can't always do that though, and specific situations don't make for good balancing discussion. (That goes both ways, of course.)
There's a better way to deal with falcons than a dedicated sniper, anyway. Can anyone guess what it is?
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:36:00 -
[44]
Edited by: maralt on 26/12/2008 17:37:59
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
It's usually to be avoided. But, sometimes you don't have a choice, Einstein!
Wrong.
There is always a choice.
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Oh well. I guess there's something to be said for fitting for the occasion.
Fitting for the occasion is ok but fitting and being prepared/trained for as many possibilities eve can drop on you is better.
The ability to evaluate a situation very quickly and know if to engage, not engage, pop a single ship and run/reposition are things you learn from experience and will gain you more victories than any single ship including the falcon.
The falcon is just the new ship the tards in eve are blaming instead of themselves because they suck.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:37:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 26/12/2008 17:42:07
Originally by: maralt
Wrong.
There is always a choice.
Uhm, ok. I don't know what "mode" of PVP you pursue, but... I promise you, sometimes you don't have a choice.
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baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:37:00 -
[46]
I find it rather funny to think that me in my solo bomber can do what entire fleets seemingly cant.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:39:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 26/12/2008 17:41:16
Originally by: baltec1
I find it rather funny to think that me in my solo bomber can do what entire fleets seemingly cant.
Well, this is the flaw in the arguments of the falcon-whine-spammer legion. Falcons aren't uncounterable. They're just heads and shoulders above the other recons. I'm not sure which one is being *****ed about by which people. I ***** because I think the Arazu is a POS, and it's the ship I spent a good amount of time training for... and frankly, I love watching the hordes of falcon alts squirm about when I/we come here and **** them off.
If people actually think Falcons can't be countered, they need to think a bit.
Otoh, if they aren't going to fix the other recons, I'd be plenty happy to see Falcons brought down to their level.
It's worth noting at this point that Zulupark seems plenty happy with how damps are functioning at this point. And so my mission to troll falcon whine threads resumes.
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Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:44:00 -
[48]
Originally by: GateScout
That's my point. MWD, scrams, sensor booster, cap injectors, shield mods....no one wants to give up those to counter ECM. As I said..it has nothing to do with "balance." Most people don't want to have to alter their fits in any way to deal with ECM. It isn't a balance issue.
Doesn't that work the other way around too? Actually noone HAS to fit something to counter EWAR from other races, because it's just to weak to take into consideration. ECM however can be a major problem and a battlewinner.
I'm not saying nerf the Falcon, but bring other Recons in line with it (because I'd like my Arazu to be usefull).
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:45:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 26/12/2008 17:45:17
Originally by: Cohkka
Doesn't that work the other way around too? Actually noone HAS to fit something to counter EWAR from other races, because it's just to weak to take into consideration. ECM however can be a major problem and a battlewinner.
I'm not saying nerf the Falcon, but bring other Recons in line with it (because I'd like my Arazu to be usefull).
Precisely.
Of course, I don't care if they nerf the crap out of the Falcon or bring the other recons up a bit. Either one is fine with me. I'd enjoy the cries as much as I'd enjoy my Arazu being useful.
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: maralt
Wrong.
There is always a choice.
Uhm, ok. I don't know what "mode" of PVP you pursue, but... I promise you, sometimes you don't have a choice.
Pretty much all of them and since 2003, and your wrong there's always a choice in fact its the foundation for every successful engagement. You may have heard if it we call it "patience" and it the most effective tool in eve when used correctly.
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Maeda Toshiie
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Malcanis
Oh christ, not another nerfwhine.
Were everything screwed up in Eve begins.
No more nerfs, ever.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: maralt
Pretty much all of them and since 2003, and your wrong there's always a choice in fact its the foundation for every successful engagement. You may have heard if it we call it "patience" and it the most effective tool in eve when used correctly.
Yet, the fact that no other single ship changes the decision from "engage" to "do not engage"/"deagress and GTFO" is rather telling.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:57:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Maeda Toshiie
No more nerfs, ever.
Only buffs?
Or no buffs, either?
Maintain a **** state of game balance? Erm...
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Maeda Toshiie
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:02:00 -
[54]
No nerfs, no buffs, only expansion. A very slow release of improving counter-technologies.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:02:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Maeda Toshiie
No nerfs, no buffs, only expansion. A very slow release of improving counter-technologies.
Counter technology is an implied buff/nerf? I guess I'm not following you here.
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Xiaodown
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:04:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Omu Negru
Originally by: Malcanis
Oh christ, not another nerfwhine.
Yes, another punk who is complaining again about Falcons. They will never stop untill falcon will be removed from the game for good.
After that they will complain about something else of cource.
They are the ppl I will never understand, who moan on forums about everything they think is "overpowered" - a scuse for their incapabilities to ACTUALLY ENJOY THE FREAKIN GAME. Which is btw one of the most ballanced game ever made.
period/
It would be sufficient to reduce it's ECM strength bonus to what it was a year ago, i.e. 10% per recon level, and not 20%. I think that would be sufficient; but it might be nice also to remove the jamming strength rigs or the low-slot jamming modules.
As I've said before - extreme range, ship crippling ability, ability to fly cloaked - pick only 2 out of three, please.
I still have no idea to this day why they upped the bonus to 20%, in one fell swoop making the falcon overpowered and the rook useless.
~X
--
Sig under construction.
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:10:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Xiaodown
As I've said before - extreme range, ship crippling ability, ability to fly cloaked - pick only 2 out of three, please.
Sit a rook cloaked in a pounce point and apart from the slight locking time increase its just as effective as a falcon in static gate camps, the falcon is just move convenient.
Scorp is a better ECM ship within a roaming RR BS gang.
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Maeda Toshiie
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:12:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Maeda Toshiie on 26/12/2008 18:12:57
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Maeda Toshiie
No nerfs, no buffs, only expansion. A very slow release of improving counter-technologies.
Counter technology is an implied buff/nerf? I guess I'm not following you here.
A nerf hits everyone using that ship/module instantly. There is no choice involved. You wake up and the toys you had yesterday are not the same as the ones you have today. Skills wasted, plans useless. Release a new module/ship, with it's own benefits and drawbacks, and you leave the players choices. You may choose, for example, to employ this new toy to counter the big bad Falcon, or you may not, because you don't like the price. There is still an element of the unpredictable in encounters because there is more variety in outfitting.
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baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:14:00 -
[59]
Edited by: baltec1 on 26/12/2008 18:14:50
Damps work perfectly fine on my bomber. The trick is to use the cloaking devices to get in range of the target and using your little gray cells.
The OP is very wrong in saying the falcon has an unfair advantage over the other recons. I would love to see a falcon take on an abaddon solo and win like the pilgrim.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:16:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Maeda Toshiie
A nerf hits everyone using that ship/module instantly. There is no choice involved. You wake up and the toys you had yesterday are not the same as the ones you have today. Skills wasted, plans useless. Release a new module/ship, with it's own benefits and drawbacks, and you leave the players choices. You may choose, for example, to employ this new toy to counter the big bad Falcon, or you may not, because you don't like the price. There is still an element of the unpredictable in encounters because there is more variety in outfitting.
Interesting, and good idea in theory.
However, it doesn't allow devs to deal with unintended consequences/"emergent behavior".
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