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alexreborn
Sekura-Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:48:00 -
[31]
Good post mickey.
while yes the PLEX market is player driven and could potentially be worthless, I did state that it could be governed with certain rules: e.g. a price threshhold. and certain contracts being not capabale of being made.
For instance the threshold would work something like this: Right now say the market for plex is 300 mil. You could have a low being 50 mil, and a high being 850 mil. If the market somehow reaches the high of 800 mil- it wont happen over night, CCP can then adjust threshold to allow for higher pricing points. And vice versa for lowest price point- Which to be frank would never happen unless CCP made PLEXs useless over night, however again that would be a huge problem.
For contracts, Im refering to Scams. Scams are like this: You give me plex card and 500 mil... so you end up losing a plex and 500 mil... hard to do but Im sure it happens out there. And other such type scams..
Theres no reason for someone to lose 30$ because they miss-read a contract in game, or something stupid like that.Thats all Im saying. Also its not like the price would be set by CCP either. IT would just limit the scam potential of such a valuable commodity.
I thank you for your good response though Mickey, unlike some of the other posters you acutally replied with logic and common sense, rather then "you must hate this game, youre bitter and stupid, and u should give up the game and go to wow".
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Amarria Drezine
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Posted - 2008.12.26 23:43:00 -
[32]
Something tells me the op got scammed....
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Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.12.27 00:36:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Kuranta on 27/12/2008 00:39:03
cba to read through all the OPs....whining...rambling...trolling??
If you can't figure out why moving PLEXes is not allowed....well... . CCP wants to stay out of a grey are. That's all.
I guess CCP has paid quite some RL ISK to some lawyers to figure out what is the best way to go. They don't need an armchair troll like you to figure that out.
If you got scammed (you didn't state how) - contact CCP. I'm sure they wouldn't like you to get scammed over a PLEX.
Edit: Hope you got scammed and will not be reimbursed. You deserve it.
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StoreSlem
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.27 00:56:00 -
[34]
Agree with OP.
CCP have always made an effort to control the trades of, and prevent scamming, of GTCs, character transfers and the like. Plexes do have a value in real money and should be protected in the same way. This is imo not scamming but fraud, especially when contracts are advertised as something they aren't.
That being said I am running 12month subs and never sold or bought a single gtc, I am just of the opinion stealing someones space pixels is okay, stealing someones paycheck isn't.
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alexreborn
Sekura-Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.27 02:48:00 -
[35]
I just love the non constructive trolling that goes on, on these forums from these air heads that just jump in and say "gtfo, give me your stuff, ur a nub," very mature way of handling a legit discussion. Rather then giving some valuable input youd rather just tell people to stfu "thats how it is" blah blah blah. It really shows how mature you are. Whats more amazing is how you can tell by their posts that these individuals are just fuming with anger, probably never been laid or something? Hard to say.
In any case, Ive never been scammed in this game, ever. This isn't about me. This is about the game mechanics and CCP and how things dont add up when some things are allowed but others aren't.
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.12.27 03:08:00 -
[36]
 Originally by: alexreborn
I just love the non constructive trolling that goes on, on these forums from these air heads that just jump in and say "gtfo, give me your stuff, ur a nub," very mature way of handling a legit discussion. Rather then giving some valuable input youd rather just tell people to stfu "thats how it is" blah blah blah. It really shows how mature you are. Whats more amazing is how you can tell by their posts that these individuals are just fuming with anger, probably never been laid or something? Hard to say.
In any case, Ive never been scammed in this game, ever. This isn't about me. This is about the game mechanics and CCP and how things dont add up when some things are allowed but others aren't.
PPl just troll you because just by creating the topic you clearly point out that its not worth it to have a serious discussion with you.
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Szent AdamKiraly
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.12.27 03:09:00 -
[37]
I am a relitively prolific scammer and even i think something needs to be done about this.
On the other hand i couldn't care less though.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.12.27 08:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: StoreSlem
Plexes do have a value in real money
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Once you hit the convert button, the PLEX is an ingame item. You cannot get your money back and cannot freely exchange it for real life cash of any kind. It is an ingame item, and even though it is not a normal ingame item it should be governed by all the rules that all of the other items in EVE are governed by.
They don't allow GTC scamming by the method of giving out faulty codes. If you typed in WTS 60D GTC 60m (instead of 600m by accident) and sent an offer to someone for 60m and they accepted it, guess what you are dumb and there is nothing anyone can do to help your dumb ass.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Angela Moore
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Posted - 2008.12.27 09:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: alexreborn
Edited by: alexreborn on 26/12/2008 15:20:39
Let me start off by saying Ive never been scammed, nor scammed anyone. But you gotta be freaking kidding me when youre allowed to scam GTC's (plex) cards in game. And this is a legit part of the game? How? They got rid of 30 day time codes, replaced them with super expensive 60 day time codes, pretty much destroyed a pretty good system of them in game, and replaced them with scamable PLEX cards.
Why is it okay to scam PLEX cards, but you cant scam people with characters transfers? And this scamming has turned rampent. Is anyone even playing the game anymore? You know, flying a space ship and shooting at things? Or is that what everyone is doing docked up in station? Just setting up scams?
Someone pays real life money for a plex card, sells it in game, gets scammed anad pretty much loses it all. Thats okay, but other scams are against the EULA? Wait, we cant sell our characters for real life money, we cant sell isk or buy isk for real life money, but, we can scam PLEX cards that bought with real life money?
And thats okay? Im all for scams in game. You buy a myrmidon, or a shuttle for 500 mil, youre an idiot.. but PLEX cards shouldn't be scamable There should be a price threshhold for the item. Oh no but CCP Doesn't want to do that because they dont want to put a monetary value to ISK OMG what will the world come to if CCP says you cant setup contracts of PLEX cards, or sell them, with ******ed isk values. omg!
DUDE!!!!!
its a game
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.12.27 09:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: alexreborn
Someone pays real life money for a plex card, sells it in game, gets scammed anad pretty much loses it all. Thats okay, but other scams are against the EULA? Wait, we cant sell our characters for real life money, we cant sell isk or buy isk for real life money, but, we can scam PLEX cards that bought with real life money?
So what about a situation like this:
You bought a GTC, converted it to a PLEX and sold it for say 400mill. With those Isk you try to buy a faction BS, and get scammed.
You just got scammed out of your RL money in another way.
Point is, as soon as you received your ingame item (the PLEX), all connection to your RL money is lost as far as CCP is concerned, it is just an ingame item you paid a stupid amount of RL money for  .
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.12.27 09:59:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/12/2008 09:59:57
Originally by: StoreSlem
CCP have always made an effort to control the trades of, and prevent scamming, of GTCs, character transfers and the like. Plexes do have a value in real money and should be protected in the same way. This is imo not scamming but fraud, especially when contracts are advertised as something they aren't.
Isk infact have a value in RL money, it depends directly on the price of the GTCs (you get playtime which would cost RL money) and Characters (you get the RL moneys worth in training time).
Basically scamming someone out of Isk always equals scamming them out of RL money, as the time they spent making that Isk also has a value in RL money attached to it.
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Awesome Marie
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Posted - 2008.12.27 11:31:00 -
[42]
I agree with op. Some lines should not be crossed in a game.
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Price McChecker
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Posted - 2008.12.27 15:08:00 -
[43]
Op has comprehensively failed.
So you can get scammed? Big deal. All of the systems are set up so that *IF YOU ARE PAYING ATTENTION* then you cannot get scammed. None of these scams rely on the scammer hiding information from the victim, so in all cases, it relys on the victim actively scamming himself by being too lazy to pay attention.
Originally by: alexreborn
They got rid of 30 day time codes, replaced them with super expensive 60 day time codes, pretty much destroyed a pretty good system of them in game.
The "super expensive" aspect of the 60 day cards is nothing to do with CCP. They cost twice as much as the 30 day cards. Obviously any change in isk-value is because of the player driven market for them, and not CCP.
OP, if you want to know why many many people are replying to you negatively, perhaps you should re-consider your approach to this topic. An agressive incredulity does not help your cause. It makes you look like a whining idiot who got scammed. It does not matter that you claim not to have got scammed. It still makes you look like a whining idiot. Your stalwart refusal to listen to anyone who has actually attempted to reason with you, only adds to the communities ire.
In fact, quite a few people agree with the principle of what you are saying; they either disagree with how you've said it, or just do not actually care that much. Either way, you come out of it looking angry and childish.
- P.McC (yes I know this is an alt, however my corp has strict rules on mains posting)
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Raul Watanabe
Gallente
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.12.27 15:48:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Raul Watanabe on 27/12/2008 15:52:02
Its nice to see that there are some people who get what your on about, the rest is just typical C&P background noise just ignore it.
The OP is absolutely right on this one i think. I buy timecards through the forums so i have no first hand knowledge of what you are saying. However if what you saying is true then CCP have truly messed up and need to fix this.
Some lines need to be drawn and allowing people to basically scam something that was meant to be 100% secure is very bad form indeed. It is also bad business practice, you can guarantee some rage quits over this one for sure.
Of course only suckers and drunk people get scammed but not everyone is prepared for a game brimming with butt holes when they join
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Celestal
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Posted - 2008.12.27 15:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kuranta
Edited by: Kuranta on 27/12/2008 00:39:03
cba to read through all the OPs....whining...rambling...trolling??
Umm so lets see , you were not prepared to read his post , but you replied to it and gave your opinion about something you did not read !!!
did you look the title of the post , or just look at the posters name , think what you would have written with that name/title and then create a reply ?
Dou you realise how stupid it is to reply to something that that in your own words you `cba to read ` ?
are you really that stupid ?
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Atharax
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Posted - 2008.12.27 17:19:00 -
[46]
Hello /waves
I agree fully with the reasoning of the OP alexreborn, its a clear difference between being scammed of one item that originated in the game, such as the freighter mentioned in this thread.
And that of a PLEX that have originated from a GTC that have been bought directly from real life money.
The way the PLEX have been setup should safeguard most transaction, but if it have grown into a problem, its time that we get a clear resolution and policy on this matter.
((...and no, havn't been scammed either, two attempts total and both in the early game and I spotted both, one was the 'disconnect' method in the hope the tradebox wouldn't update or I wouldn't note the switch, but it did update anyhow. ))
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Xen Mind
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.12.27 17:21:00 -
[47]
Bear with me here ......
having fixed isk prices for GTC's will kill Eve ... you say how? let me refresh your mind or enlighten you whatever.
only 1 game so far has had a fixed IGM -> RL money exchange rate .... GOONS might know this one ...... "Second Life" but in that game you can take your igm and transfer it to RL cash you cant do that in eve.
Well that not an issue about 2 years ago several IRS's from different countries where trying to get a taxation in on your ingame income theese ppl where spearheaded by the US IRS
And you say what the hell has this got to do with GTC's, well here goes : as soon as you make PLEX cards with fixed value you will effectively bring the isk currency into RL, meening you will have a fixed currency exchange, then you WILL have to pay taxes, because the IRS dont give a hoot about the game provider not alllowing selling off he ingame money, where did i get this ...well first game to open their eyes to taxation on "gold" "isk" what ever was WoW yes WoW
i know that this is a real RL grey area but so far the only games that have active taxation (remeber the IRS offices) is Second life because they had a fixed currency exchange rate do you really want a RL tax on Eve?
I suggest you read up on different articles in the interwebs and maybe look at some national or internationl tax laws before making stupid whine threads about gtc prices need a fix .... i wanna bet that CCP are standing on the line balancing between players have to pay taxes or not
Flame away
PS check the link its just one article and there is dozens more out there
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Cierejai
Caldari
BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2008.12.27 17:25:00 -
[48]
If it is such an issue for you, then why don't you buy a gtc on the forums, you can't be scammed on those.
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Xen Mind
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.12.27 17:32:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Xen Mind on 27/12/2008 17:33:15
Originally by: Cierejai
Edited by: Cierejai on 27/12/2008 17:30:59
If it is such an issue for you, then why don't you buy a gtc on the forums, you can't be scammed on those.
edit: how do you scam a plex anyway? same way you scam people with navy ravens and illiteracy?
ermmm yes wtb PLEX 485 mill :S or 485 k if you look at the contract
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Zaknussem
Caldari
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2008.12.27 19:47:00 -
[50]
I haven't given PLEX cards any attention until I recently saw a PLEX scam in Jita, but it was then that I realised that there was a real problem brewing here. From my perspective, CCP are digging their own graves with the PLEX cards. They are the closest thing EvE has to an item of real-life value. As a result, they are the most valuable items in EvE, having some real-life value in addition to whatever in-game value they have.
CCP at least recognize this and have sensibly placed in-game restrictions on them...but sadly they amount to diddly-squat. Players can still lose them with no return via trade window scams/exploits, or only receive a fraction of their real-life value via contract scams. Regardless of where the blame should lie in any such scam, the simple truth is this: Any in-game possibility to scam PLEX cards should not exist, let alone be tolerated. To allow otherwise is for CCP to invite disaster.
One of three things will come from this:
# CCP stays the course. Eventually they will get sued due to a PLEX scam. Regardless of how the case goes it will hurt CCP, if not in the wallet then in the eyes of the public. CCP can afford neither.
# CCP drops the PLEX cards. This is the best and easiest solution for everyone. Sure, it closes off a possible source of revenue for CCP, but at least it won't cost them anything...if done in time. Whether CCP drops the PLEX cards or just replaces it with a better and safer system is irrelevant.
# CCP bans all scamming in EvE. Not just with PLEX cards, but everything and anything. Barring the other options, it's really the only way CCP can protect themselves from damage. It'll also inevitably improve the public's opinion of EvE, so it might actually work out in CCP's favour. |
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kublai
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.12.27 19:49:00 -
[51]
Can someone explain to me how the plex card mechanics work, I haven't ever actually used them and frankly i'm a bit lazy.
What scams exactly are people pulling with them?
I ran a petition by CCP on the legality on this and from the responses I got its fairly obvious they don't approve, but that it is indeed legal (for now, I forsee it being changed personally but we'll see).
Win 2B isk |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.27 19:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: kublai
Can someone explain to me how the plex card mechanics work, I haven't ever actually used them and frankly i'm a bit lazy.
What scams exactly are people pulling with them?
I ran a petition by CCP on the legality on this and from the responses I got its fairly obvious they don't approve, but that it is indeed legal (for now, I forsee it being changed personally but we'll see).
Presumably freeform contracts and a bit of jimmy-jamming around to make it look like a genuine contract.
On the matter of the legality of the scamming: It is an in-game item, but tied to real money. If you were dumb enough not to pay attention to the manner the contract or trade was set up, it is your own fault.
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Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
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Le Poupon
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.12.27 19:57:00 -
[53]
I would assume people are doing the usual contract scams like selling them for minus figures and such.
Like any other item really.
Its a tough one. Ingame item but bought with real money. Yet people could get scammed out of isk bought with selling GTCs bought with real money as well. Its just skipping a step i guess.
OMFG I made a serious post.
-------sig------------------------------------
Thing is I'm not acctualy an Alt
Post like a butterfly
Sting like a bee |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.12.28 04:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Zaknussem
They are the closest thing EvE has to an item of real-life value. As a result, they are the most valuable items in EvE, having some real-life value in addition to whatever in-game value they have.
Close doesn't cut it. You cannot freely exchange it for real life currency. A PLEX is an ingame item that you can only use and sell. It is not the most valuable item. If it is then you'll give me an estamel's invulnerability field for a PLEX, right? Please explain how *after* the GTC -> PLEX transfer is complete how a PLEX is has anymore real-life value than any other item in EVE.
Originally by: Zaknussem
Players can still lose them with no return via trade window scams/exploits, or only receive a fraction of their real-life value via contract scams.
Exploits are a *completely* different matter.
As far as legal manners are concerned. I would like to see these imaginary lawyers try to sue CCP, I bet CCP has a legal team that will tear any noob player with an "internet lawyering degree" to shreds. As far as a blow to reputation, that is bull****, I know a lot of players that specifically joined eve because of famous scams and corp thefts. People play EVE because it is a sandbox and sandboxes can have evil crabs that pinch you.
Anyone that dares sue a video game when people in the actual world are scamming for over $50 Billion USD is a moron and should be shot.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Terra Mikael
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.28 12:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: alexreborn
If enough people stop buying PLEX in-game for inflated values, the value will drop and they will be worth less! 
This.
________________________________
Originally by: Korovyov
You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.28 15:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: StoreSlem
Plexes do have a value in real money
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Once you hit the convert button, the PLEX is an ingame item. You cannot get your money back and cannot freely exchange it for real life cash of any kind. It is an ingame item, and even though it is not a normal ingame item it should be governed by all the rules that all of the other items in EVE are governed by.
Actually it does.
PLEXs have a fixed real-world monetary cost, you can't loot PLEXs ingame - you can only create them as a consequence of spending real money.
Everything else in game whether it be an Estamels Invul or a Caldari Shuttle has no real value outside of the game. Although you could look on ISK-selling sites and do a rough conversion based on current market prices it doesn't alter the fact that the value of these items is transient, changes daily and is subject to the usual market mechanics ingame. If Estamels Invuls starting dropping everywhere their value would go down appropriately, you can't say the same of PLEXs.
I'm not against scams, if someone gets scammed for 300m on a standard Raven then more fool them for not reading the description, but all they've lost is ingame ISK which has no value, whereas someone who gets scammed on a PLEX has lost an actual sum of real-world money as a consequence.
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alexreborn
Sekura-Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.28 15:50:00 -
[57]
good post Durzel.
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Raul Watanabe
Gallente
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.12.28 15:58:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Raul Watanabe on 28/12/2008 16:00:20
I am amazed at the amount of intelligent thoughtful posts that this thread has delivered, what the hell has happened to C&P?
Edit: CCP needs to fix this already.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2008.12.28 16:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tyranthin
I firmly believe that anyone who is an idiot and doesn't pay attention to what they're doing deserves to get scammed. What they're getting scammed out of is quite irrelevant.
This
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Asuka Smith
Gallente
StarHunt
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.28 17:17:00 -
[60]
You get scammed in this game, ever, under any circumstances, you are an idiot. I have never seen a scam clever enough to defeat common sense... How is the PLEX scam carried out though for my curiousity?
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