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Don't buy isk: 20.000$ Isk Buyer goes to the danish court and fails...

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Ecatherina W Gallente Dromedary Goat Albatross and Fish Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:41:00 - [31] Key parts with translation Det er under sagen ubestridt, at kortudstederen, VISA, ikke har indgset en indl°sningsaftale med OwnYourGame, og at OwnYourGame derfor ikke er berettiget til at modtage betalin¡ger, der foretages med et VISA-kort. It is during the trial unopposed that the credit card company, VISA, has not made a pay-back agreement with OwnYourGame and that Own your Game therefor is not rightfully qualified to receive payments done with a VISA card. Det er endvidere oplyst, at VISA og PayPal har indgset en ind¡l°sningsaftale, men ikke en formidlingsaftale, og at PayPal derfor alene er berettiget til at mod¡tage betalinger, der foretages med et VISA-kort. It is also into evidence that VISA and Paypal has signed a payback agreement, but not a distributionagreement and that PayPal based on this is only rightfully qualifed to recieve payments made with a VISA card. Det bemµrkes herved, at [NAME] med sit VISA-kort har k°bt og fset leveret e-penge af PayPal. Den omstµndighed, at PayPal efter aftale med [NAME] har benyttet de k°bte e-penge til at betale de ydelser, som han har k°bt hos OwnYourGame, er visasystemet uvedkommende. It is noted that [NAME] used his VISA card to buy and get a delivery of e-money from PayPal. The fact that Paypal after agreement with [NAME] has used the purchased e-money to pay services from OwnYourGame is not relevant to the VISA system. My verdict: Serves him well, buying ISK is stupid... *** Ecatherina W *** Empress of the Multiverse DGAF Newbie Guide Kaths blog about all things Eve
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:43:00 - [32] roflmao. In my honest oppinion the guy somewhat deserved it, and it shows that dealing with isk seller is bad and you will face the turnout. Don't Buy Isk and Items for real money. In turn it will combat Farmers/Macros in game.... ------------------
Dal Thrax Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:50:00 - [33] I'm just floored that there is anything in this game that somebody would need 400B or more isk for. I wonder if there isn't some backstory here. Maybe somebody using ISK as part of some type of RL financial dealing?
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Dal Thrax I'm just floored that there is anything in this game that somebody would need 400B or more isk for. I wonder if there isn't some backstory here. Maybe somebody using ISK as part of some type of RL financial dealing? I'm thinking any of the following are possible: 1. Obsessed individual (or perhaps a minor with a parent's credit card) buying a huge amount of ISK for solo use. 2. Ill-conceived scheme of buying ISK low and then reselling it for RL cash to someone else at a higher price. 3. This guy was a frontman for a group of ISK buyers who, combined, had invested around $20k for ISK. Big alliances can quickly convert 400 billion ISK into a multitude of cap ships and/or faction deathstar POSs after all.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:18:00 - [35] Edited by: Pohbis on 30/12/2008 18:21:05 Originally by: Khemul Zula Maybe it is the translation but I'm not quite sure what the issue was. Was this a loophole in the commercial code or an issue of who needs to make the refund? Cutting all the bias of this being an MMO RMT away, the main issue in this case is that the bank in question has made charge-backs on payments that involved eBay/PayPal before, but refused in this case. One of the main reasons the court ruled the way it did, was a VISA representative explaining that PayPal does not have a licens from VISA to serve as a gateway for VISA transactions, they are only licensed to receive payments. Much like any other shop that offer VISA payment. This means that in legal terms when you buy, say GTCs, with VISA through PayPal, you are not actually making a VISA transaction all the way and merely using PayPal as a gateway for the transaction, like one would expect in these kinda transactions were you are not using already existing money you have in a PayPal account, or even an account at all. You are paying PayPal and their e-money system, who in turn then pay the seller within their own system. This is a giant loophole in danish consumer law which guarantees a "14 days money back" clause for goods bought online with Dankort/Credit Cards, 'cause the consumer has no way of knowing if a gateway site, like PayPal, used for the transaction is actually licensed by VISA as a gateway, or just licensed to receive payments. I don't think a lot of people here actually know that PayPal are classified by VISA as a mere shop licencesed to receive VISA payments, and not an actually gateway for VISA transactions. Especially considering the fact that they are owned and used by eBay for payments. This means that when you pay for your eBay auctions, you are not doing a VISA transaction, you are paying PayPal and the VISA transaction ends there, the rest of the transaction is considered a payment within PayPals own system and none of your rights as a credit card user apply after that. PS. The ISK and services bought were not for one individual, it was a corp who pooled all the money in this oen guys bank account, which he then used to buy services/ISK for the entire corp for.
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:30:00 - [36] long story short: DONT BUY YOUR FRIKKIN ISK Cheers, Faros
C601	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:33:00 - [37] I say name the shame CORP. Total bunch of idiots, they deserved what they got. Danish court 1 ISk buyers/corp 0
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Khemul Zula Maybe it is the translation but I'm not quite sure what the issue was. Was this a loophole in the commercial code or an issue of who needs to make the refund? The way I read it is that the person should be looking to Paypal for a refund, not their bank. His bank seems to basically be saying they payed the money to Paypal and Paypal payed the ISK seller. He can't claim a chargeback on the VISA card because it wasn't used (directly) to purchase the product in question, but instead to purchase a electronic funds transfer for the product. Since the bank honored their end, and Paypal sent the money, there is no reason for the bank to refund the money. But then there is mention of some commercial codes and regulations so I may be missing something. Same here. A pays B and reclaims the money from C where A is Paypal, B is the isk seller and C is the credit card company. Therefore C cannot be held responsible for the purchase from B. FRom my understanding, it's Paypal he should have taken to court. My guess is that he hasn't even gone to Paypal to have the original transaction reversed under their Payment Protection policy, he wrongly jumped on the Credit Card company who only made the payment to Paypal in accordance with his agreement between him and Paypal. All this is irrelevant now though, it just needs me to make the obvious post... OMFGPWND -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Bimjo Caldari Domination. Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Deimos Regal Holy crap! 19,000USD? If I had that much money to throw around, I'd buy a friggin' house, not some interweb spaceship money. scuse my ignorance, but can you buy a house in the USA for $19000 ? or just one of those "Trailer Trash" contraptions we see alot in the UK when they show USA material ? ====================
Gut Punch Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Deimos Regal Holy crap! 19,000USD? If I had that much money to throw around, I'd buy a friggin' house, not some interweb spaceship money. scuse my ignorance, but can you buy a house in the USA for $19000 ? or just one of those "Trailer Trash" contraptions we see alot in the UK when they show USA material ? $20K is enough for a down payment for a house to secure a loan in certain sections of the country. However, in my section of the country $200K house is as bargan basement as you can get. Its more like $350-500K for an average house.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:21:00 - [41] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 30/12/2008 20:26:42 Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Deimos Regal Holy crap! 19,000USD? If I had that much money to throw around, I'd buy a friggin' house, not some interweb spaceship money. scuse my ignorance, but can you buy a house in the USA for $19000 ? or just one of those "Trailer Trash" contraptions we see alot in the UK when they show USA material ? Depends how you aquire the house. If you are simply buying it on the market, it'll probably be old (by our standards ), lack any new upgrades, and the town population probably hasn't gone above four digits yet. If you have the cash laying around and are willing to take some pretty big risks, you can aquire a rather nice house in a major city for that much from the local government. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Cpt Lollercakes Warriors of COAD	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:59:00 - [42] Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 30/12/2008 20:26:42 Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Deimos Regal Holy crap! 19,000USD? If I had that much money to throw around, I'd buy a friggin' house, not some interweb spaceship money. scuse my ignorance, but can you buy a house in the USA for $19000 ? or just one of those "Trailer Trash" contraptions we see alot in the UK when they show USA material ? Depends how you aquire the house. If you are simply buying it on the market, it'll probably be old (by our standards ), lack any new upgrades, and the town population probably hasn't gone above four digits yet. If you have the cash laying around and are willing to take some pretty big risks, you can aquire a rather nice house in a major city for that much from the local government. Or you could live in Albania. Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 30/12/2008 12:47:12 13.500 euros spent on isk. isk.. That act has to be classified as some sort of mental disorder somewhere. I think you will find CCP regard it as a sign of good mental health if you're buying ETC's from a endorsed reseller and trading securely. I'm fairly confident Oveur would ring you up at home and tell how sane you were. However, I strongly suspect a rich mommy or daddy, as anyone whose had to earn it is unlikely to be parted with that much of it so easily.
Sikozu Prioris Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.12.30 21:04:00 - [43] Just goes to show that isk sellers would far rather rob you blind, both in real life and in game, than actually give you the isk that you "brought".
Cpt Lollercakes Warriors of COAD	Posted - 2008.12.30 21:29:00 - [44] Originally by: Sikozu Prioris Just goes to show that isk sellers would far rather rob you blind, both in real life and in game, than actually give you the isk that you "brought". You cannot "buy" that which was not theirs to "sell" - its data that only exists on CCP servers, and guess who they think it belongs to . . . For the hard-of-thinking it is in the EULA where they assert their intellectual property rights, which includes everything any of you mistakenly think you "own" in game. If you pay a sub and don't violate the terms of usage they won't take it away from you. Unless they feel like it, cos the EULA says they can if they want to.
Nova Satar Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.30 21:56:00 - [45] Edited by: Nova Satar on 30/12/2008 21:56:56 im glad this has happened, however im not glad that the isksellers have amde this money for nothing... ...they are a bunch of chinese ****s who should be flat out banned from the game, and don't tell me they cant be traced, give me an interceptor and 24 hours, ill burn round 0.0 and give you a list of 500. (this post contains no offensive material towards the people of China, except the ones that iskfarm)
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.12.31 14:11:00 - [46] This is why real life is sometimes as much fun as eve. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Big Gray Minmatar Rowdy Ramblers	Posted - 2008.12.31 16:08:00 - [47] Originally by: McFly 13.500 for us people is that $13,500 Euro or $13.50 Euro??? if it's thirteen and half grand someone is really really stupid.... 1 USD = .78 Euros
Amantus Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.12.31 16:09:00 - [48] Haha what. Sad to see the money go to the ISK sellers though. I'd rather the guy got his money back, spent it on legit GTC ISK then acted as a 400b ISK loot pi±ata for the rest of us. ------------
Mya ElleTerego The Hull Miners Union Primary.	Posted - 2008.12.31 18:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Dal Thrax I'm just floored that there is anything in this game that somebody would need 400B or more isk for. I wonder if there isn't some backstory here. Maybe somebody using ISK as part of some type of RL financial dealing? I'm thinking any of the following are possible: 1. Obsessed individual (or perhaps a minor with a parent's credit card) buying a huge amount of ISK for solo use. 2. Ill-conceived scheme of buying ISK low and then reselling it for RL cash to someone else at a higher price. 3. This guy was a frontman for a group of ISK buyers who, combined, had invested around $20k for ISK. Big alliances can quickly convert 400 billion ISK into a multitude of cap ships and/or faction deathstar POSs after all. This is what I would guess, It was a investment ploy that failed. That if done properly over multiple accounts and multiple low ball chinese dealers would probably yield a better return than playing the stock market with insider info. Unfortunately some chinese dude now has 50 new bicycles and is the envy of his entire country. CEO For the Hull Miners Union [ONION] The Hull Miners Union [ONION]
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2009.01.03 09:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Malcanis What I want to know is, what was he intending to buy in game that the 400 billion ISK he'd have got from GTCs wasn't enough, so that he had to buy cheaper illicit ISK? I'm guessing he wanted Fountain. He was trying to buy himself a sponsor in Goonswarm...but what the story DIDN'T tell you was, the Danish judge was a Goon also, and he skated with the iskies and then judicially pwned him. Typical Goons, fugging up the works once again... --- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.01.03 10:49:00 - [51] I like how easy it is to see who all the poor bastards in this thread are. While 13.5k Euros might be a lot to you, if he is able to spend that amount on ISK and then hire a lawyer and take the company in question to court. Well I would assume that 13.5k Euro is not a great deal of money to him. Could of been an investment. Could of been a conglomeration of ISK buyers. Could of been one rich player that wanted to buy his way into power. We don't know, but really what is the difference between this and say spending that amount of money on a weekend trip somewhere? Are all the people that spend a few thousand on a private jet to fly them to some exotic location for a few nights of fun crazy as well?
Kara Mitsui The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:10:00 - [52] Originally by: Schalac I like how easy it is to see who all the poor bastards in this thread are. While 13.5k Euros might be a lot to you, if he is able to spend that amount on ISK and then hire a lawyer and take the company in question to court. Well I would assume that 13.5k Euro is not a great deal of money to him. Could of been an investment. Could of been a conglomeration of ISK buyers. Could of been one rich player that wanted to buy his way into power. We don't know, but really what is the difference between this and say spending that amount of money on a weekend trip somewhere? Are all the people that spend a few thousand on a private jet to fly them to some exotic location for a few nights of fun crazy as well? Exactly. There's a ton of people around for whom 13 grand isn't much more than a good night out. Just one example: All those people working for investment banks who make 25m a year just in bonuses. There's a lot of them, and they have kids. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if one of them said he wanted 400b ISK for christmas. There was a TV show a year or two ago showing the lavish parties given to kids by their parents. Seriously, some people spend a million dollars on a bar mitzvah. These are the idiots who throw down 500 grand for a nokia phone with some diamonds stuck on it. Anyway, in this case I think earlier in this thread someone said it was a whole corp who had pooled their money. It might have only been $100 each.
Atedar Kerane HeXstoof	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:14:00 - [53] Just wanna use this thread as a reminder to everyone Do not buy timecodes from eve-codes.com They steal your money...
Antoine Dupont	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:22:00 - [54] €13k to buy ISK?! CCP, you should start a group called EVE-players anonymous.
Bimjo Caldari Domination.	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:35:00 - [55] I don't get it , this part reads "The virtual services, which had a total value of ca.100.000 kroner, was bought over a period of approximately. 3 months in several steps. Since there after several reminders still not happened delivery" So, did he get some/all his money,but CCP took it away ? or , buyer just paid and paid for ISK over 3 months and never saw any ISK ?(this sounds unlikely,even tough the report says so,who in their right mind would buy an item from any shop and keep going back to buy more, having no received any goods ?) confused ====================
Alexandria Li Better Than You	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:26:00 - [56] Edited by: Alexandria Li on 03/01/2009 12:26:23 Originally by: Bimjo who in their right mind would buy an item from any shop and keep going back to buy more, having no received any goods ?) Who in their right mind would spend 150.000 on space monopoly money?
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:32:00 - [57] considering this guys intelligence even if he did get that much in game money the pirates of eve would have made sure he didn't keep it for very long. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Alexandria Li Better Than You	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:34:00 - [58] Originally by: Schalac I like how easy it is to see who all the poor bastards in this thread are. While 13.5k Euros might be a lot to you, if he is able to spend that amount on ISK and then hire a lawyer and take the company in question to court. Well I would assume that 13.5k Euro is not a great deal of money to him. Could of been an investment. Could of been a conglomeration of ISK buyers. Could of been one rich player that wanted to buy his way into power. We don't know, but really what is the difference between this and say spending that amount of money on a weekend trip somewhere? Are all the people that spend a few thousand on a private jet to fly them to some exotic location for a few nights of fun crazy as well? It's not a function of poverty to think that blowing money on this is stupid. Primarily - it's like buying electronics out of the back of a car. When you engage in business with people performing on the edge of questionable legality, with no reputation or presence (or even need) to defend, 9/10 they're just going to take your money. Secondarily - A majority of the laughing at this sum comes mainly from the sheer ludicrousness of it. Short of trying to be the next Entity, there's no real and reasonable use for that quantity of isk. Hell, even if (as some are positing) it was a whole corporation - you could build 1-2 DOZEN outposts on that fund, while still having enough left over to put every pilot in a dread or carrier to defend them. So - it's a stupid business transaction, conducted to an end that makes no sense. I agree he's likely wealthy to be able to afford the expenditures he's done - but that doesn't make him less stupid for the expense.
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:43:00 - [59] Originally by: Atedar Kerane Just wanna use this thread as a reminder to everyone Do not buy timecodes from eve-codes.com They steal your money... Just do not confuse it with evetimecodes.com, those can be trusted. Originally by: AkRoYeR ...the beauty of EvE. You have to live on the edge all the time. If you don't stay frosty, you will die! Best game ever!
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:03:00 - [60] I don't see what the big deal is. The court case was not focused on the ISK purchase. The focus of the court case was the applicablity of consumer protection policies on payments made via PayPal: in Denmark, PayPal does not offer the same protection that direct credit/debit card payments offer against non-delivery or other such issues. For all that the court ruled on, the case could be about non-delivery of real goods instead of virtual goods: the key point is that PayPal != Credit Card. I read nothing about a court ruling on the specifics of a consumer purchasing goods for which he had made an agreement that he had no right to purchase, or a retailer selling goods for which he has no right to sell.

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