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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.12.31 18:05:00 -
[61]
To the OP:
Because the universe is expanding the speed of light does not change. However it gets red-shifted the further the light travels.
If you go far enough away the combined expansion of the universe is faster than the speed of light. As such the actual universe may be a lot larger than the observable universe. Since light speed is an absolute limit however anything beyond that horizon can have no effect on us so, in a manner of speaking, may as well not exist as far as we are concerned (basically we can ignore it).
Eventually this expansion will carry all the other galaxies out of range and we will be seemingly floating in a universe with nothing else in it but us.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Mind bending stuff.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Wild Rho
Amarr Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2008.12.31 18:11:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h To the OP:
Because the universe is expanding the speed of light does not change. However it gets red-shifted the further the light travels.
If you go far enough away the combined expansion of the universe is faster than the speed of light. As such the actual universe may be a lot larger than the observable universe. Since light speed is an absolute limit however anything beyond that horizon can have no effect on us so, in a manner of speaking, may as well not exist as far as we are concerned (basically we can ignore it).
Eventually this expansion will carry all the other galaxies out of range and we will be seemingly floating in a universe with nothing else in it but us.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Mind bending stuff.
I've pretty certain I've got this all wrong but I wondered if because space and time are curved wouldn't all the galaxies flying away eventually curve back around and smack into each other?
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Golan Cinquanteneuf
Gallente Carthage.
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Posted - 2008.12.31 18:16:00 -
[63]
I would like to thank some of you who have chosen to provide a response to my (completely unserious) question. I particularly enjoyed this one:
Originally by: Avon I tested it and found out that light travels fractionally slower than sound. I got my mate to yell at me when I turned my car headlights on down the street, and accurately measured the time between me turning them on and hearing him yell. The distance was measured by using fixed distance markers (street lights).
I also discovered that light can only travel about 330 yards, because past that I couldn't hear my mate informing me that the light had reached him.
Science is ace.
As for some of the others who were particularly offended by the pixels I put on their computer displays, may I suggest that the aliens forgot to remove their anal probe.
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Golan Cinquanteneuf
Gallente Carthage.
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Posted - 2008.12.31 18:31:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h To the OP:
Since light speed is an absolute limit however anything beyond that horizon can have no effect on us ...
That seems like a broad statement. I believe I've read that if you could make matter appear out of nothing, then the gravitational effects (although small) are instantly measurable any given disance away. Seemingly unconstrained by the speed of light. But of course gravity is an entirely different subject.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.12.31 18:37:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 31/12/2008 18:43:55
Originally by: Wild Rho I've pretty certain I've got this all wrong but I wondered if because space and time are curved wouldn't all the galaxies flying away eventually curve back around and smack into each other?
Nope.
It is not that the galaxies are flying away from each other so much (although they are mostly...Andromeda will crash into the Milky Way in the future so we are getting closer) as space itself is expanding. Think of taking a marker and putting dots on a balloon then blowing up the balloon. All the dots will get further from each other without actually moving because "space" (the balloon) is expanding.
As far as galactic motion they are slow pokes compared to light. Since the universe is expanding faster than light speed they cannot possibly travel around to bump into you again (and that is assuming the universe is spherical). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.12.31 18:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Golan Cinquanteneuf
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h To the OP:
Since light speed is an absolute limit however anything beyond that horizon can have no effect on us ...
That seems like a broad statement. I believe I've read that if you could make matter appear out of nothing, then the gravitational effects (although small) are instantly measurable any given disance away. Seemingly unconstrained by the speed of light. But of course gravity is an entirely different subject.
Nope.
You are talking about "action at a distance". Einstein did away with that with General Relativity. Information cannot propogate faster than light speed and feeling the gravitational tug of something else is "information". If you magically made the sun disappear the earth would continue orbiting for ~8 minutes till the gravitational information, moving at light speed, reached us. Then we'd sail off into space.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.31 19:06:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Antimony Noske http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4
OMG THIS VOICE !!! Fetchez la vache !
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Gunnanmon
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2008.12.31 19:30:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Michelle Raynor threathwinna
Erm, eh? The Ghost-training vote thread |
Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.31 19:53:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Avon Darkness is faster than light.
Yep... No matter where light goes Darkness has always got there first.
I believe the most recent measurements of the speed of light came up with results around the 15m/s mark. Though that was in Sulphur or something similar. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.12.31 20:53:00 -
[70]
There is an interesting phenomenon I observed.
You know how they say that space bends around strong sources of gravity/great mass and that black holes are called black holes because they "suck in the light"`?
Well, that's all wrong.
In reality black holes are just dark places and space bends around the absence of light. Want proof? Alright, here's how it's done:
In the afternoon take a stopwatch and measure the time it takes you to get to the nearest pub. While you're there, wait til it gets dark, grab a few beers in the meantime. Hell, drink yourself senseless if you want. Then go back home, when its dark outside and note that you will take considerably longer.
Therefore darkness bends space, my logic is flawless. FLAWLESS, I tell you.
Q.E.D.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.01.01 00:04:00 -
[71]
All I know for certain is that humans like to strut around proclaiming that they know everything when in fact they know very little and most of that is wrong.
True astronomy involves realizing that a mere five senses aren't enough to really analyze the universe in great detail. ---
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.01 00:26:00 -
[72]
Edited by: AkRoYeR on 01/01/2009 00:27:25
Originally by: Atama Cardel
Originally by: AkRoYeR
Originally by: Golan Cinquanteneuf In Eve we deal in AU's per second. But I started thinking about recent developments in cosmology. We know in that our observable universe, space (i.e. the universe itself) is expanding. In the 1990's we discovered that the rate of expansion is not slowing but is in fact increasing. It occured to me that these observations take into account that the speed of light is a constant. But has anyone checked the speed of light lately? And if they have, what was the methodology? And what are the consequences if the speed of light is changing. This probably belongs in OOPE but somehow that didn't seem like the appropriate place.
OP=Fail. If anything attains the speed of light with mass, it becomes infinite, therefore it is everywhere at once, so how can something that is everywhere at the same time travel if it's already where it was traveling to?
I'm pretty sure you got that wrong, mass is not the same as size, that's why different things have different densities, more mass in the same amount of space. In fact, the faster something is going, the shorter it is.
This type of thinking is exactly why it will take us so much longer to achieve things. It's okay if your small mind doesn't comprehend what I typed, it is rather a concept left for those that think outside the box. I highly recommend you go deeper in your studies. Next your going to tell me that atoms stick together with glue.
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Wired
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.01 00:44:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Concorduck i was about to write
The speed of light in the vacuum of free space is an important physical constant usually denoted by the symbol c0 or simply c. The metre is defined such that the speed of light in free space is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second (m/s).
but then
# Lightspeed, a space simulation computer game released in 1990 # Lightspeed Media Corporation, a company active in erotic modeling and internet ****ography # Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue, the eighth Power Rangers television program # Lightspeed Endodontics, a company producing dental equipment that is used to treat diseased dental pulp. # Lightspeed (film), a 2006 science fiction film # Lightspeed, a 2003 puzzle game for Windows # Lightspeed, a space opera role-playing game by Christian Conkle using the Fuzion system # Lightspeed Venture Partners, a venture capital firm # Lightspeed Aviation, a manufacturer of aviation headsets # Lightspeed Consumer Panel, a large, UK-based online market research agency. # Julie Power, a Marvel Comics superhero who goes by the name Lightspeed.
You quite clearly forgot: # Lightspeed Briefs, style and comfort for the discriminating crotch
For everyone now joining this thread thinking "tl;dr" here's a summary.
Light: it's pretty quick =============================================
My sig got edited, and all i got was a lousy e-mail |
MEBHansen
Darwin With Attitude
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Posted - 2009.01.01 01:50:00 -
[74]
Originally by: DiaBlo UK
light has mass. its both a particle and a wave. unless ofc you follow one of the newer theories and believe everything is just i vibration felt from another dimension.
Erm, What? Got a link to some info or something?
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Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.01.01 02:02:00 -
[75]
c is constant, it does not change and is only an upper bound on the speed of light. The speed of light in a given medium does change and has even been stopped: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/01.24/01-stoplight.html
c = 299,792.458 km/s and will not change because the value of c has been agreed to be the distance traveled in 1/299,792,458 of a second, which is what we call, 1 meter.
under general relativity, c is constant regard to the spacetime of the observer and is the speed of light, in a vacuum in free space ....i.e. your on earth which travels around the sun at about 30km /sec you would measure the same value for c standing on earth or in a space ship not moving with regard to the sun.
In simpler terms the c is independent with regard to the velocity of the observer. This has thus far been backed up with over 100 years of experimental data.
This conclusion is even more interesting when you think about what speed is (distance / time) since time and distance are dependant on the local distortion in spacetime.
As an example gravitational time dilation predicts that time passes slower in areas with high distortion of spacetime (such as near a massive object, such as the earth). This is proven to be true in practice as the GPS system does have to insert a time correction due to the atomic clocks in the GPS satellites running at a different speed than those on earth due to their distance from the earth.
Time also slows down for an object at high speed, the object becomes shorter in the the axis of travel, and becomes more massive, in relation to an observation frame at rest. The person at speed however, would feel no difference.
it is a grade school simplification to state that "nothing can travel faster than light" there are several cases where faster than c for a given reference frame has been observed. the proper statement is that "information can not travel faster than light"
an example is a light wave with group velocity = c, its phase velocity would be much higher than c, but since information can only be transmitted at the group velocity it does not violate the laws of relativity.
Quantum entanglement is another example of faster than light travel but again, it can not transfer information faster than light, therefore still holds with general relativity (i guess one of the few things quantum mechanics agrees with GR on).
sorry for the rant, kinda like physics :/
-xian
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Egenli
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Posted - 2009.01.01 02:02:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Information cannot propogate faster than light speed and feeling the gravitational tug of something else is "information". If you magically made the sun disappear the earth would continue orbiting for ~8 minutes till the gravitational information, moving at light speed, reached us. Then we'd sail off into space.
But all astronomical computations of orbits assume negligible gravity propagation delay. More importantly, observation confirms a different speed for light and gravity. The earth is attracted to a point in space about 20 arc-seconds ahead of where the sun looks to be right now. During total solar eclipses, the visible maximum eclipse differs from the gravitational maximum by 38 seconds, which is how long it takes the moon to move through an angle of 20 arc-seconds.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.01.01 02:20:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Xianthar c = 299,792.458 km/s and will not change because the value of c has been agreed to be the distance traveled in 1/299,792,458 of a second, which is what we call, 1 meter.
I never agreed to this... ---
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MarleWH
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.01 05:53:00 -
[78]
As far as I know you can smoke crack out of a lightbulb.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.01.01 06:38:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Misanth on 01/01/2009 06:41:40
Originally by: Avon I tested it and found out that light travels fractionally slower than sound. I got my mate to yell at me when I turned my car headlights on down the street, and accurately measured the time between me turning them on and hearing him yell. The distance was measured by using fixed distance markers (street lights).
I also discovered that light can only travel about 330 yards, because past that I couldn't hear my mate informing me that the light had reached him.
Science is ace.
Isn't that how kids start with it? It won't be long until you build your own rocketship out of cardboard in your backyard.
Originally by: Avon Darkness is faster than light.
All the po(a)sting in CAOD this autumn got to me. I read that comment of yours with three s on the end of the first word. Suddenly the whole tri-bobpet RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE (some free advertisement for my corp there, *cough*) got a new meaning.
Either I'm too sleepy, it's just past 07 after new years. Or I'm too drunk. Or, the speed of light is going so fast that by the time I read stuff from my shining lcd screen, it has actually changed! Maybe you did write three s in Darnesss!
Oh man, I need to get me some cardboard boxes.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.01.01 13:26:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 01/01/2009 13:26:04 I pose the following: Mobius Strip How fast does light travel around it's edge?
Weeee! ---
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Daenes Nague
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Posted - 2009.01.01 13:54:00 -
[81]
Quote: I've pretty certain I've got this all wrong but I wondered if because space and time are curved wouldn't all the galaxies flying away eventually curve back around and smack into each other?
think of it this way: our 3d space sits on the surface of a giant baloon. now if the baloon expands, so do all distances in our 3D space, but they dont smack into each other. If the force that expands the baloon is strong enough, they will never meet again and the universe will be ripped apart.
(our universe is more like a torus, but you get the general idea)
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.01 14:59:00 -
[82]
One thing I know for sure is that humans may think they have it cut and dried but they are wrong. Knowledge is limited by the very definition of the word. There is a lot we don't know and a lot of things we can't account for in science. Once we learn to understand those things we can't account for, new horizons will open up including FTL travel and maybe even time travel.
On the other side of the coin, to begin to understand, we would have to abandon our ideals of absolutes since these only represent what we know now and create limits to our ability to understand other things.
An analogy would be that if you are a member of a remote tribe and believe that all liquid will douse a fire, you have not yet discovered oil. All the time you use this as an absolute, you will never throw new liquids on a fire to see what happens. The ability to use oil as fuel for a fire will then only be discovered by complete accident. If you still stick to your beliefs, a lot of people may be killed before you finally figure out why because you would always condemn it as a fluke.
What we know will always change, what we understand will always change. It stands to reason that a combination of these two may cause a change in our knowledge of absolutes.
Light speed is a standard, not an absolute. It is the standard by which we measure speed. In the same way that we count in multiples of 10, if we counted in multiples of PI, things could be a lot different, even counting in the base of a prime number would create a lot of new results for math where infinite recurrences in base 10 become integers in base 3 for example.
There is a famous quote, I can't remember the exact words but it goes something like: "The only limits are those we create for ourselves".
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Harrent
Caldari The Leathernecks
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Posted - 2009.01.01 16:10:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Cpt Hound
Originally by: ouroboros trading that's the speed of light in a vacuum iirc, speed of light is not a constant :P
Hold on there, the speed of light IS a constant
You lose
"The speed of light when it passes through a transparent or translucent material medium, like glass or air, is less than its speed in a vacuum. The speed is controlled by the refractive index of the medium. In specially-prepared media, the speed can be tiny, or even zero." =----------=
Semper Fi |
Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.01 19:42:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Stuart Price Light is also affected by Gravity. You can see this effect in pictured of Black Holes, where light appears to be distorted around the singularity. In fact, light is pulled INTO the centre, where it cannot escape, if it gets too close.
Is that really the case though? All matter distort space not just black holes so all matter bends light a little. ==================================================
I should really get a sig. |
Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.01.01 20:05:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Harrent
Originally by: Cpt Hound
Originally by: ouroboros trading that's the speed of light in a vacuum iirc, speed of light is not a constant :P
Hold on there, the speed of light IS a constant
You lose
"The speed of light when it passes through a transparent or translucent material medium, like glass or air, is less than its speed in a vacuum. The speed is controlled by the refractive index of the medium. In specially-prepared media, the speed can be tiny, or even zero."
ya'll are really arguing semantics and its mostly the fault of the history channel and grade school science teachers constantly saying "c is equal to the speed of light".
They are separate values and only equal in one special case (vacuum, free spacetime). The rest of the time the speed of light changes based on its medium and spacetime distortion while c stays the same. You wouldn't change c to the value of the speed of light in your current situation to use c in a equation.
the misconception comes from c being calculated using the speed of light back in the day, in reality c is really just the upper limit on the transfer of information yet constantly articles say "at the speed of light" what they really mean is c. For instance EM waves in vacuum also travel at c but the wiki article says "at the speed of light" which is misleading at best.
c is a universal constant, the speed of light is just one of its implications.
-x
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Jonny Hawks
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Posted - 2009.01.01 20:13:00 -
[86]
OK, believe it or not, I actually read everything and I even got most of it. Not bad with a High School education that ended in the R.Reagon years. Good thing I read a lot, and I mean A LOT of sci-fi.
One thing that has always bugged me though: If a black hole can effect light, does that mean light has mass and that all energy states have mass? Or is the effect of gravity bending space/time in a way that makes it only look to the observer that light is going into the black hole?
If anyone knows I'd love to read about it.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.01.01 20:33:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge One thing I know for sure is that humans may think they have it cut and dried but they are wrong. Knowledge is limited by the very definition of the word. There is a lot we don't know and a lot of things we can't account for in science. Once we learn to understand those things we can't account for, new horizons will open up including FTL travel and maybe even time travel.
On the other side of the coin, to begin to understand, we would have to abandon our ideals of absolutes since these only represent what we know now and create limits to our ability to understand other things.
An analogy would be that if you are a member of a remote tribe and believe that all liquid will douse a fire, you have not yet discovered oil. All the time you use this as an absolute, you will never throw new liquids on a fire to see what happens. The ability to use oil as fuel for a fire will then only be discovered by complete accident. If you still stick to your beliefs, a lot of people may be killed before you finally figure out why because you would always condemn it as a fluke.
What we know will always change, what we understand will always change. It stands to reason that a combination of these two may cause a change in our knowledge of absolutes.
Light speed is a standard, not an absolute. It is the standard by which we measure speed. In the same way that we count in multiples of 10, if we counted in multiples of PI, things could be a lot different, even counting in the base of a prime number would create a lot of new results for math where infinite recurrences in base 10 become integers in base 3 for example.
There is a famous quote, I can't remember the exact words but it goes something like: "The only limits are those we create for ourselves".
Well said!
Originally by: Jonny Hawks OK, believe it or not, I actually read everything and I even got most of it. Not bad with a High School education that ended in the R.Reagon years. Good thing I read a lot, and I mean A LOT of sci-fi.
One thing that has always bugged me though: If a black hole can effect light, does that mean light has mass and that all energy states have mass? Or is the effect of gravity bending space/time in a way that makes it only look to the observer that light is going into the black hole?
If anyone knows I'd love to read about it.
Personally I don't think gravity affects light itself as much as it affects the space through which light travels. My theories aren't popular though and work off the assumption that even basic human math is fundimentally flawed. ---
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MEBHansen
Darwin With Attitude
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Posted - 2009.01.01 21:42:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Jonny Hawks
One thing that has always bugged me though: If a black hole can effect light, does that mean light has mass and that all energy states have mass? Or is the effect of gravity bending space/time in a way that makes it only look to the observer that light is going into the black hole?
If anyone knows I'd love to read about it.
Light does have mass and is affected by gravity. Basically If it doesn't have mass, It doesn't exist. Well, atleast not in this dimension
Originally by: Par'Gellen My theories aren't popular though and work off the assumption that even basic human math is fundimentally flawed.
O'rly? Go on..
/me breaks out popcorn and cola.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.01.01 21:50:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Harrent
Originally by: Cpt Hound
Originally by: ouroboros trading that's the speed of light in a vacuum iirc, speed of light is not a constant :P
Hold on there, the speed of light IS a constant
You lose
"The speed of light when it passes through a transparent or translucent material medium, like glass or air, is less than its speed in a vacuum. The speed is controlled by the refractive index of the medium. In specially-prepared media, the speed can be tiny, or even zero."
no no he think it IS a constant because WHILE it's traveling through each of those it's always going the same speed.
which is dumb, because that is the very idea of something not being constant.
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MEBHansen
Darwin With Attitude
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Posted - 2009.01.01 21:55:00 -
[90]
Threads like these, that evolve into heavy science and theory discussions, is exactly why I love Eve and it's forums.
I love this
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