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Back for the 5 day and the belts are gone...

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Piran Eligius The Merovingians	Posted - 2008.12.31 00:31:00 - [1] I come back after a year to do the five day re-up. So I light up my hulk and take off to do some quick mining to get back into the groove with the interface. And fly through 23 hi-sec belts, all stripped, around Perdan until I come across an orca and four hulks working on a near dead belt. So I chat them up in local. No response. So I cut and paste some traditional chinese greetings a friend put together for me (hee hee hee). And I get "German please". One babelfished bad grammar conversation later I glean that this is how hi-sec is now since the Orca came out? And that mission running has taken a big hit as well due to changes to missiles? Someone catch me up please. P.S. - Hi Chribba!
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.31 01:16:00 - [2] The Orca is CCP's attempt to increase wardecs on carebear corps
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.31 01:40:00 - [3] The belts are stripped out because the value of Tritanium is so high. Orcas just make the strip mining operations a little more efficient. Mission running in under-skilled Ravens has taken a hit, since cruise missiles don't do anywhere near as much damage to frigates unless you use Target Painters. Hope this helps!
Mr QUE Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.12.31 01:41:00 - [4] LOL the belt have been stripped for years long before the Orca came out. Macro miners have seen to that. so don't even try to put blame on the Orca. although now rather than takeing all day it might cut that buy 1/4 hehehe and you can bet it will be the Macro miners doing it. there is no hope for the avrage joe to make isk mining unless he can stay online mining 23/7 just like the Macro Miners and have 10 accounts doing it. someday CCP will fix this. Woot
Piran Eligius The Merovingians	Posted - 2008.12.31 01:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Mara Rinn The belts are stripped out because the value of Tritanium is so high. Orcas just make the strip mining operations a little more efficient. Mission running in under-skilled Ravens has taken a hit, since cruise missiles don't do anywhere near as much damage to frigates unless you use Target Painters. Hope this helps! Actually it does. Skip mining for now, or look for npc crap to reprocess for trit. And mission run in a BC so I can uphit with missiles rather than down hit 3 steps from a raven. Thank you very much!
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2008.12.31 03:05:00 - [6] They removed NPC sell orders for shuttles, which removed the artificial cap on trit prices. Since this time, highsec mining has become considerably more profitable, and thus the belts tend to be more mined out. That said, with a little looking - mainly out of Caldari space - you can still find systems that stay largely untouched. ----------------
Ruby Roidraper Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.12.31 03:32:00 - [7] So, I was thinking of joining a corp.... finally and I'm a miner. Should I look for one with an orca and take the chance of getting war dec'd or should I go another way... like maybe a corp in an alliance with 0.0 space to mine in? I hear they get ganked as well. Thought this question relevant to the discussion about orcas and mined out systems.
Manipulator General o.0	Posted - 2008.12.31 03:57:00 - [8] That'll teach you for trying to mine in empire, eh?
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2008.12.31 05:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Ruby Roid**r ...like maybe a corp in an alliance with 0.0 space to mine in? I hear they get ganked as well... People get ganked in 0.0? NEVER! Jokes aside, go with what suits your playstyle. Empire mining is safer and requires far less attention. 0.0 mining requires more commitment, and far more attention - but is more profitable for it. That said, very few 0.0 alliances want/recruit players for strictly mining. There are some, but it's unusual. ----------------
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.12.31 05:26:00 - [10] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 31/12/2008 05:32:26 Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 31/12/2008 05:26:22 Originally by: Lui Kai [...] That said, very few 0.0 alliances want/recruit players for strictly mining. There are some, but it's unusual. I guess this is one of the reasons many stays in empire. They eare simply not wanted by the 0.0 corps and alliances as miners. Even over all their speaks they do about CCP should be forcing these people out into deep space. TBH I would like to see Deepspace corps and alliances beeing "forced" to accept these people as a neccesety more then today. Maybe then we would see a lot more of these carebears finding their way into deep space, and eventually - maybe - develope some pvp teeth too. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL

Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2008.12.31 06:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker TBH I would like to see Deepspace corps and alliances beeing "forced" to accept these people as a neccesety more then today. Maybe then we would see a lot more of these carebears finding their way into deep space, and eventually - maybe - develope some pvp teeth too. The only way to "force" 0.0 corporations to want miners would be to make it impossible to transport ships/modules/anything significant to 0.0. Which would make invention, and thus T2 production, nearly impossible. Equally, for T1 production, a single dedicated industrialist could support any corp needs easily, if not an entire alliance. ----------------
B1FF	Posted - 2008.12.31 12:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 31/12/2008 05:32:26 Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 31/12/2008 05:26:22 Originally by: Lui Kai [...] That said, very few 0.0 alliances want/recruit players for strictly mining. There are some, but it's unusual. I guess this is one of the reasons many stays in empire. They eare simply not wanted by the 0.0 corps and alliances as miners. Even over all their speaks they do about CCP should be forcing these people out into deep space. TBH I would like to see Deepspace corps and alliances beeing "forced" to accept these people as a neccesety more then today. Maybe then we would see a lot more of these carebears finding their way into deep space, and eventually - maybe - develope some pvp teeth too. How exactly does this system of forcing 0.0 corps to take miners work?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2008.12.31 12:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 31/12/2008 05:32:26 Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 31/12/2008 05:26:22 Originally by: Lui Kai [...] That said, very few 0.0 alliances want/recruit players for strictly mining. There are some, but it's unusual. I guess this is one of the reasons many stays in empire. They eare simply not wanted by the 0.0 corps and alliances as miners. Even over all their speaks they do about CCP should be forcing these people out into deep space. TBH I would like to see Deepspace corps and alliances beeing "forced" to accept these people as a neccesety more then today. Maybe then we would see a lot more of these carebears finding their way into deep space, and eventually - maybe - develope some pvp teeth too. almost no alliance will deny you access because you are mainly a miner. As long as you are not dead weight and can and WILL field a Battleship with t2 guns for OPs. Simple, very simple. Eve is a harsh world and if you cannot help with defense you are dead weight. You bring nothing to the alliance. Why should them just let you access their minerals while you give nothing in return? Or at least nothing they need? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.31 13:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Kagura Nikon almost no alliance will deny you access because you are mainly a miner. As long as you are not dead weight and can and WILL field a Battleship with t2 guns for OPs. And you don't see that you are making your first phrase false with the second? "almost no alliance would deny you access because you are mainly a miner if you have trained 10 millions SP in gunnery and another 5 in BS and support skills." So if you are on par with a fully trained PvPer you are allowed to mine in 0.0 and pay the relative refining tax. Moronic.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Free Ammatar Aid Organisation	Posted - 2008.12.31 13:58:00 - [15] Go into space that isn't so populated. Ammatar space for instance has got tons of belts just waiting for you to munch on. Hmm, maybe i shouldn't have said that.. GO AWEH! THEY'RE ALL MINE!
Stubek Cogito Facio Fio Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.12.31 16:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Kagura Nikon almost no alliance will deny you access because you are mainly a miner. As long as you are not dead weight and can and WILL field a Battleship with t2 guns for OPs. And you don't see that you are making your first phrase false with the second? "almost no alliance would deny you access because you are mainly a miner if you have trained 10 millions SP in gunnery and another 5 in BS and support skills." So if you are on par with a fully trained PvPer you are allowed to mine in 0.0 and pay the relative refining tax. Moronic. You're both right, sadly. 0.0 organizations make far more money from moon mining, than they will with a dozen hulk pilots in their space who have nothing else to offer. They really don't need the extra income from your mining, so its up to you to give them a reason to let you mine in their space. Broken, yes, but also how it works, currently. Also, mining in 0.0 is MUCH less stressful than mining in empire. Far more profitable, too. ------------------------ Life sucks. Buy a helmet.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.12.31 16:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Venkul Mul So if you are on par with a fully trained PvPer you are allowed to mine in 0.0 and pay the relative refining tax. 0.0 alliances need people to fight first and foremost. Some fighters might mine to pay the bills, others might rat. Either way it is pvpers that are valued. There isn't much need for industry or miners otherwise in 0.0. Most stuff is built in empire and hauled into 0.0. Less risk and just takes a few alts. All that is really needed is maybe one decent industry alt with refine skills per corp plus a few haulers to keep the moon mining going. Maybe an ice miner or two with some alts to help with pos fuel. There might be room in an alliance to have maybe 1% of players dedicated industry. Anything over that may as well be in alt corps in empire. Even that 1% will likely be asked to have some role in pvp. Otherwise industry folks in 0.0 are typically a liability. It doesn't make sense to have serious industry in 0.0. Even supercap ship production only take a few people to run. The pvpers generally lose isk protecting industry folks who lose ships and assets in the most ingenious ways possible. Then the pvp folks need to ask for a replacement where they likely won't get much of a discount. Then the industry folks make isk from their mining activities and selling it to the pvpers. From the pvp perspective, this is a net loss, while for industry it is a net gain. Much easier for a pvper to buy stuff in Jita. Isk can be made in 0.0. For example for a dedicated ice miner can make some isk in a quiet system. However they'll be expected to sell the ice to the corp at a deep discount compared to Jita. This runs the pos they'll be based out of and makes it worth it for the corp to support their activities. The ice miner gets a quiet system but must watch local as if they're tackled no one is going to help. The core issue is that empire pays too well for missions and mining. It makes sense to make isk and products in empire. There isn't anything compelling to drive masses of players to 0.0. There isn't anything where a miner must sell ice at 50% of Jita to alliance but mine 10x faster. The risk versus rewards aren't balanced. Not only are industry folks impacted. Many pvpers fund themselves using mission empire runners.
Rothgar Detris	Posted - 2008.12.31 20:05:00 - [18] Crackzilla, While your perspetive about miners needing protection from/against PvPer's is true, your summation that miner's are, somehow, a net loss to corps in 0.0 is totally false. In fact miners/industrialist are the only organizations that can GUARENTEE income in low-sec space. PvP is NOT a viable income source. Pvper's are money drains, not income generators, except when running missions (in empire). It's a 2 way street, with miners needing protection and PvPer's needing the minerals/ISK to replace and/or upgrade their ships. Corps make good money running mining op's, not running wars. I do think that the whole mining area needs a serious overhaul. I really think Orcas, like cap ships, should be limited to lower-sec space as it is causing major disruption and inequalities in empire mining. I also think they need to regenerate fields more than twice a week. Weekend mining is damn near impossible anymore, due to Orca crews/macro-farmers depleting everything during the week (not so much a problem for me, but a major pain for others). Also, this problem will only get worse with more new players. Even more competetion for ever more limited reasources. More skills and money for ever diminishing returns. Just my 2 ISK..
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.12.31 20:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Rothgar Detris miner's are, somehow, a net loss to corps in 0.0 is totally false. ... PvP is NOT a viable income source. ... miners needing protection and PvPer's needing the minerals/ISK to replace and/or upgrade their ships. Corps make good money running mining op's, not running wars. There is a loss of morale and purpose with a heavy industry ratio. The losses on the killboard suck morale. The tensions about differing objectives isn't worth it. Then you get into the complaints where industry folks complain about having to pay refine tax, corp tax, then sell stuff to the corp at a discount. Industry folks make isk doing their jobs, pvp folks lose isk doing theirs. Then you get the tension where pvpers are fighting a war, losing isk, while the industry side is busy making personal isk. Most alliances have found that much industry simply isn't worth it. What little isk to be gained is best done by moving industry people into renter corps. No one cares if the renters get popped. No one cares if renters mine during a war. Just as long as the rent is paid when due. Ultimately the only protection that a pvp group can offer industry is advanced notice of incoming hostiles and maybe a pos to safe up in. It just doesn't make sense to have a pvp group on standby to protect a mining operation. The difference is attitude. Most pvpers see themselves as doing what needs to be done. Fighting is the first priority. Then maybe ratting/mining to pay those builds. Making isk for the idea of making isk isn't much of a priority. So most pvpers rat. Maybe a small ship alt out on a roam while the cap ship pilot rats. They use this isk to buy stuff in Jita. Some stuff might be available from the corp for a discount (battleships built from reprocessed rat loot or caps built in low sec). Ratting is taxed. More isk for a corp. Most mining activity with the exception of ice mining avoids corp taxes. We're left in a situation that for good or bad the industry half of the house is sidelined. Originally by: Rothgar Detris I do think that the whole mining area needs a serious overhaul. ...think they need to regenerate fields more than twice a week. Agreed about the overhaul, but I think that mining and mission running in empire needs to be seriously toned down. In 0.0 the good ratting spots are a limited commodity. Mission running/mining is safer and until recently hasn't had the pinch of limited availability.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.31 20:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Rothgar Detris I also think they need to regenerate fields more than twice a week. They do. The problem is that we haven't quite figured out why some fields regenerate faster than others… No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.

Jabezhane	Posted - 2009.01.01 00:17:00 - [21] Edited by: Jabezhane on 01/01/2009 00:18:49 Edited by: Jabezhane on 01/01/2009 00:18:10 Have to say I hadnt bothered with mining for quite some time till I got a note a few weeks ago from an old corp mate to join him and a few buddies doing some mining and a chat. I thought why not and dusted off the old Hulk. Anyway I get there and I see an Orca and 4 hulks sitting there. I join in and it was just silly. We were clearing belts in what seemed like 25 mins a go. I remember when I started it took that long to pop a single roid. It was even less fun than the dismal experience I remember mining was a year ago. At that point I felt a dark disturbance in the force, like a million whiners crying out.....a nerf must be on the way.
Breaker77	Posted - 2009.01.01 02:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Rothgar Detris I also think they need to regenerate fields more than twice a week. They do. The problem is that we haven't quite figured out why some fields regenerate faster than othersà No they don't. A lot of the 1.0 and 0.9 systems regenerate every day, but when you get into 0.7 and 0.6 systems it's 2 times a week. I would be more than happy to give you a couple of systems and let you check on them everyday after downtime and you can see the empty belts everyday except for 2 days.
Ironshirt Ocean Level Deep DeStInY.	Posted - 2009.01.01 02:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker TBH I would like to see Deepspace corps and alliances beeing "forced" to accept these people as a neccesety more then today. Maybe then we would see a lot more of these carebears finding their way into deep space, and eventually - maybe - develope some pvp teeth too. Why should they HAVE to? Just because you might enjoy PVP in 0.0 doesn't mean everyone does. Leave them to play the way they WANT TO.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.01.01 03:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Ironshirt Just because you might enjoy PVP in 0.0 doesn't mean everyone does. Leave them to play the way they WANT TO. The issue is that there isn't much of a balance of trade between 0.0 and high sec. There isn't much of a reason for folks to go to 0.0, and 0.0 doesn't need much industry in 0.0. Effective empire is the production line and 0.0 the playground. No compelling reason to mix the two.
Vall Kor Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.01 03:26:00 - [25] Yea now try being new.... It's fun trying to eek out at least some isk, while the bug boys get all the dough.
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.01 06:00:00 - [26] Look at it this way: Maybe with what will most likely be an upsurge in new players, due to a number of factors, (ambulation, atari box deal, tech 3) will create a situation that will basically force people to seek out more fertile, yet rather dangerous, grounds. With so few resources readily available in empire for harvest perhaps low sec will be invaded as noobs have no choice but too swarm. Filthy little maggots that they be.... Or maybe I should lay off the beer... shin ku myo u
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2009.01.01 08:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Go into space that isn't so populated. Ammatar space for instance has got tons of belts just waiting for you to munch on. Hmm, maybe i shouldn't have said that.. GO AWEH! THEY'RE ALL MINE! This guy wins the thread. Get out of Caldari space especially and hit the quieter areas. Alternately, get out a copy of Ombey's 2-D maps and check, there are regions that are mostly lowsec, but with pockets of 5, 10, or even 20 highsec sitting inside of them. Places like Aridia (around Haimeh), Bleak Lands (around Komaa), Molden Heath (around Eldulf), Devoid (around Halenan), and Placid (around Vivanier). Get out there, mine your little heart out, and then sell the ore at a premium price to the locals out there. They'll buy it rather than lug it out from a hub anyways. Happy roiding. --- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.01 11:44:00 - [28] Khanid,Ammatar, Metropolis <- Go there, hardly anyoen is siting there. Stop mining overfarmed kernite belts in amar which is wrth less than veld.
melonboy	Posted - 2009.01.01 12:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Ruby Roid**r So, I was thinking of joining a corp.... finally and I'm a miner. Should I look for one with an orca and take the chance of getting war dec'd or should I go another way... like maybe a corp in an alliance with 0.0 space to mine in? I hear they get ganked as well. Thought this question relevant to the discussion about orcas and mined out systems. Join our smnall corp there is another miner guy in corp its all he does... mine...! regards MB
Joss Rockefeller	Posted - 2009.01.04 14:27:00 - [30] why the hell should we miners be forced into alliances? the last one i was in demanded i cross train a miner to pvp, despite my having a pure pvp alt! The local station was a crap 35% refine rate, 15% tax on refines, 20mil per week payment to the corp and a 15% corp tax! and the icing on the cake was no damn help whatsoever if reds came out for a day trip, they just sat in the station all day long and let them station be camped by 5 or 6 reds despite there being anything upwards of 60-70 players docked! Then when there was an op (which was every damn day due to someone being bored) you werent allowed to rat or mine.....I make more in empire now than i ever did in 0.0 and a lot less hassle too......



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