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sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.31 21:12:00 -
[1]
Used/exploited to get around losses in PVP.Ive seen this used tons of times and gets more and more common with freighters and other ships that cannot be killed although warp disrupted in the short timer.
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Wardo21
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Posted - 2008.12.31 22:06:00 -
[2]
Out of curiosity, what would your proposal be to replace the "I quit" shortcut?
The slightly longer to perform action of Escape - Quit will do the same thing, won't it?
Worst case if you remove all the "get out of the game quick" methods, ctrl-alt-del and cancel running application in windows will do the same thing.
The server will see an unresponsive connection and "safe-warp" the ship regardless. (I think.)
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Dhejay Centrix
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2008.12.31 22:15:00 -
[3]
Why don't we nerf the "pull cable out of the router" function as well?
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Wardo21
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Posted - 2008.12.31 22:25:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix Why don't we nerf the "pull cable out of the router" function as well?
Good one, I hadn't even gotten to hardware. Don't forget the "oops I hit the reset button". (Or power button) Not very good on your equipment, but most modern machines will get over it well enough.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2008.12.31 23:30:00 -
[5]
CCP has stated that in order to fix this legitimate connection drops would be facing (too) harsh consequences.
These would either have to be taken care of through reimbursements or face the risk of losing players.
So they have to find a balance between preventing logoffski's and protecting legitimate disco's and they feel the current status is the best they can think off.
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.12.31 23:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: sneak's Used/exploited to get around losses in PVP.Ive seen this used tons of times and gets more and more common with freighters and other ships that cannot be killed although warp disrupted in the short timer.
tell you what... how about every time you go into a PVP game... I call your ISP up and have them pull the plug on your connection so it looks like YOU are chickening out of the game by running from loss.
let's see how you like that for a while.
Seriously.... this isn't that hard to figure out.... =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.01 23:15:00 -
[7]
Point being if you lose connection and happen to be warp disrupted then you should die.Not the end of the world but as for now its being used all the time.
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sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.01 23:20:00 -
[8]
Where i see it used the most is jumping through a gate holding cloak then ctrl q so maybe put a longer timer if you recently have jumped before you disappear from space.CCP is more than competent to find a way to put a damper on people trying to exploit this feature.Anyone with useful idea's?
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NightF0x
Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders
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Posted - 2009.01.01 23:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: sneak's Where i see it used the most is jumping through a gate holding cloak then ctrl q so maybe put a longer timer if you recently have jumped before you disappear from space.CCP is more than competent to find a way to put a damper on people trying to exploit this feature.Anyone with useful idea's?
The real question should be if the killmail system wasn't in-place, would you really care that you didn't get a kill? Chew on that for a bit... ------------------------------------
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0oKronoso0
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Posted - 2009.01.02 00:40:00 -
[10]
0.0 is supposed to be the lawless, dangerous, real PVP area of the game. All this CTRL-Q sh!t pretty much negates all of that. Going out and ratting / mining with immunity was surely not what CCP had in mind, but that's what 0.0 has become. Bears and farmers....C'mon down! Don't worry about a thing. Who needs Concord when you have the all mighty CTRL-Q at your side.
Seems to me CCP could easily add a way to detect when you have CTRL-Q'd or had a legit disconnect. Also, when you are tackled and scrammed, you should NOT simply vanish shortly after logging out. Logging in space is cool, but using it as the sure fire escape from PVP is BS, and should really be considered an exploit as it stands.
/rant
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2009.01.02 00:42:00 -
[11]
Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaambulance .............
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sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.04 07:24:00 -
[12]
bump
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Jonas Barcal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.04 07:51:00 -
[13]
CCP have already said tough luck on ths one matey.
They can't tell a legit disconnection from people doing it on purpose and they didn't fancy getting 8 million petitions from high sec mission runners every week.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.01.04 11:38:00 -
[14]
Look at all the carebear tears. Man, bunch of whiners. If yer scrammed and lose your connection (or break your connection), you should be screwed. You were probably screwed anyway. If your connection is that bad, maybe you shouldn't pvp.
I love the whole "ccp said tough t!tties in the past" rebuttal. It gets old. If enough people cheat, people will complain. If enough people complain, changes will be made. So for all you people out there cheating/eploiting questionable game mechanics, keep it up. The more you do it, the quicker the nerf bat cometh.
(And seriously why in hell is "t itties" censored? Who doesn't like breasts?)
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Klutte
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: sneak's Where i see it used the most is jumping through a gate holding cloak then ctrl q so maybe put a longer timer if you recently have jumped before you disappear from space.CCP is more than competent to find a way to put a damper on people trying to exploit this feature.Anyone with useful idea's?
that is also where i see most of my legitimate crashes. I got a quite unstable internet connection and right after jumpin it is not uncommon for it to drop, especially if there is a lot of people on the other side.
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sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.15 08:03:00 -
[16]
If there is alot of people on the other side of the gate your dead anyways its the people that jump threw the gate and see 3 people and say if i ctrl q now my tank should hold until i disappear.They can keep the warp out feature but if you get warp disrupted before you warp out its no different than you were there at the comp anyways.
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xVx dreadnaught
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Posted - 2009.01.15 08:22:00 -
[17]
to resolve the "equipment failure" problem why not just have it that if you lose connection all (currently active mods) continue to run for 5 minutes before your ship vanishes. that way npcers tanks will still be running and runs working giving them a higher chance of escaping a crash and die scenario. and PVP'ers still contribute aslong as there guns are active and there tank is on when they crash... But all together I would make that you cannot use ALT+Q if you are being targeted. (make them use CTRL+ALT+DEL or pull the router out! Why give them a shortcut for the act? |
H Lecter
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.01.15 10:10:00 -
[18]
Oh, another logoffski thread
Let's make it quick and let me get to my final statement right now - if it is legitimate to lose your ship to lag it should also be legitimate to lose it to a disconnect!
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.01.15 15:00:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 15/01/2009 15:01:01
Originally by: 0oKronoso0 0.0 is supposed to be the lawless, dangerous, real PVP area of the game. All this CTRL-Q sh!t pretty much negates all of that.
Think about what you're saying. What you're really saying is that given the chance, a lot of the targets you're trying to kill are logging off to avoid a fight. Consider the mentality that accompanies that act.
People who aren't prepared to play the 0.0 game to PvP, who want to avoid a fight, will find ways to avoid fights until the game is nerfed to the point where you auto-win by entering the system (slight exaggeration). Next up will be cloaks no doubt.
Originally by: xVx dreadnaught But all together I would make that you cannot use ALT+Q if you are being targeted. (make them use CTRL+ALT+DEL or pull the router out! Why give them a shortcut for the act?
It takes such an awfully long time to reach over and pull the connection out the back of the PC?
Originally by: sneak's They can keep the warp out feature but if you get warp disrupted before you warp out its no different than you were there at the comp anyways.
Of course the one thing EVE needs is gatecamps to get even easier - and since when did people not carry disruptors?
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass If your connection is that bad, maybe you shouldn't pvp.
You mean play the game, since this is a PvP game and you can strictly be engaged at any time. So CCP really should say 'don't play our Internet-based game unless you have a perfect Internet connection that never disconnects ever, and we promise our client won't ever crash on you'. I can see that going down well.
Losing ships to a crash or a disconnect is a surefire way to really really irritate players (and lets not kid ourselves that you can't as it stands, it's just difficult); unless this game is about to change to one where losing ships isn't a real loss, that is. You can call this a carebear whine if you want, but as a person who has done PvP and spent time in low-sec, I know this would irritate the hell out of me. As for your comparison about disconnects and lag - lag is almost always server-based and thus affects everyone equally. Losing a ship to lag means that someone else managed to shoot it whilst lagging. Disconnects affect only one person. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Straight Chillen
Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.01.15 16:04:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Straight Chillen on 15/01/2009 16:15:31 I think the simplest and easiest way to rectify the issue, would be to make it so that if you are warp scrambled, or within a bubble, your ship will not emergency warp (aka disappear) when you quit out.
Theres absolutely no reason why it should be any other way. If your drives are warp inhibited, you should not be emergency warping. Plain and simple
Logging off your Dreads while bubbled to hell and back should not be the best way of saving your capfleet!
edit: i also cant imagine that it would be too difficult to make the client send 1 final packet to the server when you use CTRL + Q before the client closes, so that way the server can tell the difference between a quit out, and a legitimate disconnect. But then I suppose we will have the losers who pull the plugs from their modems, ahhh reminds me of good ol EQ1
And also a little point for the carebears crying that CCP has said its vaild tactic in the past. I would like to point you to the case of ghost training, and how it was an advertised feature before they changed their minds. If you look over alotta the changes in the previous years, you will see that the case is the same for alot of things. |
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Total Disaster
Caldari Frontier Industry
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Posted - 2009.01.15 16:11:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Total Disaster on 15/01/2009 16:11:15
Originally by: Straight Chillen I think the simplest and easiest way to rectify the issue, would be to make it so that if you are warp scrambled, or within a bubble, your ship will not emergency warp (aka disappear) when you quit out.
Theres absolutely no reason why it should be any other way.
i got one.
last time I was in a lvl 4 mission with my drake and I was warp scrambled my one of those frigs. Then my brother had the brilliant idea to plug in that old toaster which of course smoked the fuses (sp). so I had to reboot my machine, wait for all those pesky applications to load, start up eve and luckily my ship did disappear in space.
long story short. You just can't punish all honest players just because others choose to abuse the system. |
Straight Chillen
Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.01.15 16:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Total Disaster Edited by: Total Disaster on 15/01/2009 16:11:15
Originally by: Straight Chillen I think the simplest and easiest way to rectify the issue, would be to make it so that if you are warp scrambled, or within a bubble, your ship will not emergency warp (aka disappear) when you quit out.
Theres absolutely no reason why it should be any other way.
i got one.
last time I was in a lvl 4 mission with my drake and I was warp scrambled my one of those frigs. Then my brother had the brilliant idea to plug in that old toaster which of course smoked the fuses (sp). so I had to reboot my machine, wait for all those pesky applications to load, start up eve and luckily my ship did disappear in space.
long story short. You just can't punish all honest players just because others choose to abuse the system.
Interesting, but now what if your modules remained active when you disconnected, as was proposed above. I think your drake would probably be able to tank it.
But ive got one for you too,
Last weekend we were having an awesome fleet op. Hostiles jump in their dreads to kill our tower, we bubbled the hell outta them and start opening up on them. A bunch go down, The rest just 'poof' disappear, right out of the bubbles. Disappear as they are taking serious damage, and tackled by god knows how many support ships. End result, we get a bunch, but the majority disappear into the ether.
And your going to tell me thats ok? I understand your concern from the PVE aspect, but if you look at it from the otherside of the fence, its a completly ****ed mechanic, that rewards the cowards.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2009.01.15 18:14:00 -
[23]
Take away local and then we'll talk about taking away logoffski. .............
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Wardo21
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Posted - 2009.01.15 18:59:00 -
[24]
Anyone saying the client should notify the server of Ctrl-Q needs to read the second post in this thread, followed by the third post in this thread.
Just for good measure I will sum it up here. Notifying the server will just get folks to use alternate methods to disconnect and save their ship.
For those who are complaining about logofski, why aren't you waiting for them to come back? On the subsequent login, don't you warp right back to where you were at disconnect? Those caps that were bubbled near your station, will be back at some point. Yes it may tie up some resources waiting to guard the station, but pick the battle and the setup and wait. Leave a dictor to re-bubble and someone to control the pos guns to smoke the dreads as they come back online and try to run away. |
Straight Chillen
Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.01.15 19:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wardo21 Anyone saying the client should notify the server of Ctrl-Q needs to read the second post in this thread, followed by the third post in this thread.
Just for good measure I will sum it up here. Notifying the server will just get folks to use alternate methods to disconnect and save their ship.
For those who are complaining about logofski, why aren't you waiting for them to come back? On the subsequent login, don't you warp right back to where you were at disconnect? Those caps that were bubbled near your station, will be back at some point. Yes it may tie up some resources waiting to guard the station, but pick the battle and the setup and wait. Leave a dictor to re-bubble and someone to control the pos guns to smoke the dreads as they come back online and try to run away.
Ctrl + Q, log on, while at black "loading space" ctrl +q again. Ship appears at its emergence warp spot, and again warps 1million KM in what ever direction, Rinse repeat. This is how you can make unbustable safespots 200 au's out. So no, you dont come back to where you "logged out"
While I do agree, that people will find a way around the server sending a data packet when they ctrl +q, I feel it is better then nothing at all.
Maybe its something should be designed specifically for 0.0 space, so all the carebears in empire can still be safe in their drakes and ravens. But for someone who is traveling around in 0.0, they obviouisly know and accept the risks that come with being here, And should not be able to ctrl + q to safety, because they jumped into a gate camp, or got caught by a scout. Thats pretty much bull****. However making it 0.0 only would kinda screw the people who run missions outta NPC 0.0.
Maybe the simplest way to fix the issue is to differentiate NPC and player warp inhibitors. If your scrammed by an NPC and your connection drops, your ship will still emergency warp. But if your tackled by another player or a bubble, you stay put. That seems like a farily logical compromise to me, And then theres really no way to circumvent it. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.16 01:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Straight Chillen
Originally by: Wardo21 Anyone saying the client should notify the server of Ctrl-Q needs to read the second post in this thread, followed by the third post in this thread.
Just for good measure I will sum it up here. Notifying the server will just get folks to use alternate methods to disconnect and save their ship.
For those who are complaining about logofski, why aren't you waiting for them to come back? On the subsequent login, don't you warp right back to where you were at disconnect? Those caps that were bubbled near your station, will be back at some point. Yes it may tie up some resources waiting to guard the station, but pick the battle and the setup and wait. Leave a dictor to re-bubble and someone to control the pos guns to smoke the dreads as they come back online and try to run away.
Ctrl + Q, log on, while at black "loading space" ctrl +q again. Ship appears at its emergence warp spot, and again warps 1million KM in what ever direction, Rinse repeat. This is how you can make unbustable safespots 200 au's out. So no, you dont come back to where you "logged out"
While I do agree, that people will find a way around the server sending a data packet when they ctrl +q, I feel it is better then nothing at all.
Maybe its something should be designed specifically for 0.0 space, so all the carebears in empire can still be safe in their drakes and ravens. But for someone who is traveling around in 0.0, they obviouisly know and accept the risks that come with being here, And should not be able to ctrl + q to safety, because they jumped into a gate camp, or got caught by a scout. Thats pretty much bull****. However making it 0.0 only would kinda screw the people who run missions outta NPC 0.0.
Maybe the simplest way to fix the issue is to differentiate NPC and player warp inhibitors. If your scrammed by an NPC and your connection drops, your ship will still emergency warp. But if your tackled by another player or a bubble, you stay put. That seems like a farily logical compromise to me, And then theres really no way to circumvent it.
AGREED
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sneak's
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.16 01:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 15/01/2009 15:01:01
Originally by: 0oKronoso0 0.0 is supposed to be the lawless, dangerous, real PVP area of the game. All this CTRL-Q sh!t pretty much negates all of that.
Think about what you're saying. What you're really saying is that given the chance, a lot of the targets you're trying to kill are logging off to avoid a fight. Consider the mentality that accompanies that act.
People who aren't prepared to play the 0.0 game to PvP, who want to avoid a fight, will find ways to avoid fights until the game is nerfed to the point where you auto-win by entering the system (slight exaggeration). Next up will be cloaks no doubt.
Originally by: xVx dreadnaught But all together I would make that you cannot use ALT+Q if you are being targeted. (make them use CTRL+ALT+DEL or pull the router out! Why give them a shortcut for the act?
It takes such an awfully long time to reach over and pull the connection out the back of the PC?
Originally by: sneak's They can keep the warp out feature but if you get warp disrupted before you warp out its no different than you were there at the comp anyways.
Of course the one thing EVE needs is gatecamps to get even easier - and since when did people not carry disruptors?
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass If your connection is that bad, maybe you shouldn't pvp.
You mean play the game, since this is a PvP game and you can strictly be engaged at any time. So CCP really should say 'don't play our Internet-based game unless you have a perfect Internet connection that never disconnects ever, and we promise our client won't ever crash on you'. I can see that going down well.
Losing ships to a crash or a disconnect is a surefire way to really really irritate players (and lets not kid ourselves that you can't as it stands, it's just difficult); unless this game is about to change to one where losing ships isn't a real loss, that is. You can call this a carebear whine if you want, but as a person who has done PvP and spent time in low-sec, I know this would irritate the hell out of me. As for your comparison about disconnects and lag - lag is almost always server-based and thus affects everyone equally. Losing a ship to lag means that someone else managed to shoot it whilst lagging. Disconnects affect only one person.
Yes people that PvP do carry warp disruptors so why should they not work as intended just because you decide to Ctrl Q to save your ship.And if you get caught at a gate should you not have to escape or fight? I bet i know what makes it easier for you, Ctrl Q right?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.01.17 17:56:00 -
[28]
You disconnect while scrammed, you die. Really simple.
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.01.17 20:26:00 -
[29]
Yet another unfixed exploit that makes it easy for carebears to be lazy. 3 Situations, highsec, lowsec and 0.0:
1. Highsec - logoffski occurs when someone jumps into their WT's gatecamp that they didn't bother scouting, or notices WTs arriving in local when they're mining without adequate protection. Both cases, exploiting the game because they're lazy. There's no way to get the person in the first case, because they're already logged by the time you know where they are, and in the second case the only way to get them is to use an alt to suicide them then scan out their ship and get a very unsatisfying kill of an unoccupied ship.
2. Lowsec - occurs in the same situations, except it's not just WTs. Everyone knows the risks of lowsec, and logging off shouldn't be a way to avoid them. The highsec methods of catching people who do this don't even work in lowsec, because the same people will disappear as soon as they see anyone come near them.
3. 0.0 - occurs in much the same situations, but when Reds or neutrals are involved. There are intel channels for a reason. There is no excuse for jumping into a camp, or being surprised by reds in local. 0.0 alliance members should defend their space. Reds shouldn't be able to enter your space unnoticed, and if they can, that probably means you're holding too much space to guard properly.
My proposed solution would ideally be that all ships remain in space for 15 minutes when they log. If it's a genuine disconnect, it's highly unlikely anybody will be looking for you. If it's a logoffski, you'll be easily scannable. And, if a ship gets scrambled, even post logoffski, it should not emergency warp, or disappear. |
Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.01.17 23:16:00 -
[30]
Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but we all read this as ships should stay in space if they get aggressed after the logout, right?
Because I read a lot of 'disrupted people shouldn't warp off' and 'bubbled people shouldn't warp off' right around here.
Now, from the back of my head:
- If a player is pointed or bubbled and loses his connection, his ship stays in game 15 minutes and it does not warp out. It stays were it was, and vanishes after 15 minutes. If the ship gets destroyed in that time, the timer resets and the pod has new 15 minutes (maybe at a safespot if there is no bubble).
- If a player is pointed after he lost his connection, his ship does not warp off but vanishes after 1 minute, because when he left the game, he was not aggressed.
- If a player gets bubbled after he lost his connection, he warps off. That is the usual bubble mechanic that the bubble needs to be up before warp is initiated.
"lost connection" can mean anything here. House maid cleaning the core switch down in the cellar, lightning strike, broken fuse, ctrl+q, Ragnarok, whatever.
Point 2 seems to be the most controversial one. People would like to scramble the logout animation of a player, and force him back ingame - because that is what an emergency warp is - a logout animation. CCP decided it would be immersion breaking to have ships suddenly disappear in space all over the place, so the vanishing takes place somewhere where noone sees it (default case).
If they had decided to make the logout animation a .01 second black hole that opens up and swallows our ships, we wouldn't have this discussion. Because noone would get a point on such a short animation.
I'm as mad as anyone when I tackle someone only to have his ship disappear at 20% hull because he logged before I got the point on him and then lacked the dps to finish him fast enough. I really am.
But, at that point the ship technically wasn't ingame anymore. I can't just warp to a gate and summon a logged out ship so I get a kill. Imho that's one of the harsh realities one simply has to accept. |
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