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Loaby	Posted - 2009.01.02 06:43:00 - [1] i just set up my first region-wide buy orders and i¦m wondering how i find out the best route to pick all my stuff up in the whole region. i could use the autopilot option to optimize all the waypoints but wouldnt that take a ridiculous long time with 30 (or something) waypoints? do i have to do it myself with the 2D maps? how do you do it?
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force The Leathernecks	Posted - 2009.01.02 07:09:00 - [2] set up a bunch of contracts and have someone else haul all your stuff to a central location. Only haul yourself from there. -- Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
Clovis Fontaine	Posted - 2009.01.02 07:26:00 - [3] Do not use auto pilot, it will just get you killed. Research, research and more research on the systems you are jumping through. Make sure you know how to use a scanner on the gates to seek out pirates ready to scramble you and hold your pod for ransom. I do hauling for contracts on a daily basis. its not as easy as open the map, click and add waypoint, auto pilot and go afk. in fact, 9 times out of 10 it will get you into trouble somewhere along the line.
Loaby	Posted - 2009.01.02 07:26:00 - [4] Edited by: Loaby on 02/01/2009 07:26:31 Quote: set up a bunch of contracts and have someone else haul all your stuff to a central location. Only haul yourself from there. thats not an answer to my question as i am not looking for the most convenient way but for getting the perfect route. that hauler must have a way to get that route, too.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.01.02 07:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Loaby i just set up my first region-wide buy orders and i¦m wondering how i find out the best route to pick all my stuff up in the whole region. i could use the autopilot option to optimize all the waypoints but wouldnt that take a ridiculous long time with 30 (or something) waypoints? do i have to do it myself with the 2D maps? how do you do it? You're asking for something that doesn't really exist. A perfect route would be specific to YOU based on which region you're in and which station you're operating from. Either break out the 2D maps and start connecting the dots, or... A) Don't use regional buy orders. Find the best systems and place your buy orders there. More work? Not really. B) Use contracts to drag your stuff to centralized locations. C) Don't use regional buy orders. D) Don't bother picking up EVERY SINGLE ITEM each time; go for the largest concentrations or have a minimum number of items in a system/station that makes it worth your time to go there.
Loaby	Posted - 2009.01.02 07:35:00 - [6] Quote: Make sure you know how to use a scanner on the gates to seek out pirates ready to scramble you and hold your pod for ransom. even in empire space? Quote: I do hauling for contracts a few questions about that. a) if i set a contract the person who accepts it will have automatically access to my hangars and can see all my assets in the region? b) what happens if pirates catch you and my stuff is lost? c) how are the costs calculated? by jumps? amount of items? high sec/low sec? how in quality and quantity? d) how do i prove if the person is trustable? e) what else do i have to mind?
Izodel Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.01.02 07:36:00 - [7] It strikes me that the autopilot route optimization utility is the best way to optimize a route of many waypoints into solid jumps. I believe the earlier suggestion was to get multiple smaller hauler contracts to deliver the items individually. Many people haul to you, and then only once consolidated do you haul. The earlier comments about autopilot getting you killed refer to activating your autopilot. Never fly on autopilot. But using the autopilot's optimization command as you suggested is the best way to do what you want to do. However, you should make multiple hauling contracts - one for each very close together cluster of systems, at least, ideally one for each system where you have items you need hauled. Obviously there's gonna be some isk involved in doing this. :)
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.01.02 08:48:00 - [8] If your flying in pure high sec route and dont haul 100s of million of isk in material in a badger using afk for long legs of route is usually fine. I make long runs using a transport or a frighter afk all the time, but at the same time I usually try to keep my total isk value I am hauling in moderate range.
winning colors	Posted - 2009.01.02 10:19:00 - [9] I normally select one route at a time fom the map. optimize it for safest route with autopilot and bookmark it. Then once I have all my bookmarks for each pick up/ delivery, i throw it all together and figure out which is the shortest route, etc. That became too tiring and time consuming. So i hired Clovis to do the deliveries to my corporation hangar. :) saved me time and very inexpensive.
Fearless Angel	Posted - 2009.01.02 11:29:00 - [10] Can I have your stuff after you have filled your hangars with crap full region wide and you get bored on hauling?
SharpMango 14th Legion	Posted - 2009.01.02 11:54:00 - [11] If you operates in the big leagues, you will have to get used to making a massive number of jumps everyday/time you're on. use the optimize settings on autopilot and get to it! I probably average about 50jumps per day when im on. And sometimes 100plus. And i know im not unusual in this. Hell to give you an idea of what i did yesterday (that i can remember) 4 x 8 jump round trips. one x 46 (?) Jita-Rens round trip. Odd jumps here and there 20. Also when you make a lot of jumps, get used to modding your hauler to your exact specific requirements. Like carry only as many expanded cargoholds as u need, fit inertia stabs etc.
Myth'or Cordalan	Posted - 2009.01.02 11:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Loaby i just set up my first region-wide buy orders and i¦m wondering how i find out the best route to pick all my stuff up in the whole region. i could use the autopilot option to optimize all the waypoints but wouldnt that take a ridiculous long time with 30 (or something) waypoints? do i have to do it myself with the 2D maps? how do you do it? That's really a problem, since they've used a brute force algorithm for calculating the shortest route. There are better solutions for the Travelling Salesman Problem. At least they should give us a stop button. I ended up on trade routes, along which i'm buying with multiple orders. So I always know where to jump.
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2009.01.02 12:31:00 - [13] If you want to make region orders your 'work' best thing to is only pick up at the station that are highly filled.So don't pick up every item just pick up the big ones that should be enough to keep you from draining your isk before you can set up new orders or/and adjust them. Once you are fed up with it , and i think most people are VERY fast then you can select from all stations and see the final profit.I myself am doing this now for 2.5 months and expanding with items/regions every month but i know a lot of people burn out fast on regional orders specially if you don't have enough spare isk to make sure you don't have to haul every day. For example i haven't hauled any of my orders for at least a month.I just let it pile up and in the meantime do trades from one major hub to the other.The regional orders is my biggest income but also is something i do aside to make sure that even when i am not online i am making isk.The hauling from hub to hub then makes sure i am making profit immediatly wich again makes sure i don't run out of isk for my regional orders.
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools	Posted - 2009.01.02 13:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Loaby perfect route http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral ~~compression~~expansion! WTF?
Iosue Brau Haus	Posted - 2009.01.02 15:11:00 - [15] For region wide buy orders, I use a combination of 2D maps and the Asset window. I find that breaking up the routes by constellations makes the process much easier with the 2D maps. First, determine the most efficient route between constellations (should be fairly easy with OmbeyÆs maps). Next, travel to your starting constellation and open the constellation tab in the asset window. Identify which systems you will need to visit and plan a route with your 2D maps, taking into consideration your optimal end-point given the next constellation you want to visit. Rinse and repeat until the entire region has been covered.
Indec	Posted - 2009.01.02 15:45:00 - [16] Edited by: Indec on 02/01/2009 15:46:26 Edited by: Indec on 02/01/2009 15:46:13 Originally by: Loaby a) if i set a contract the person who accepts it will have automatically access to my hangars and can see all my assets in the region? No, when they accept it the goods that are to be moved they are transferred to that guy's hangar in the same station. Originally by: Loaby b) what happens if pirates catch you and my stuff is lost? You set a collateral that he automatically pays when accepting the contract. If he delivers the goods in time he gets it back, if not (by any reason) you keep it. Originally by: Loaby c) how are the costs calculated? by jumps? amount of items? high sec/low sec? how in quality and quantity? You set the reward yourself and then it's up to the haulers to choose wether its worth the risk/time or not. Originally by: Loaby d) how do i prove if the person is trustable? There is no need to, as long as you set a collateral that will cover the loss of the hauled items. Originally by: Loaby e) what else do i have to mind? Nothing :)
Loaby	Posted - 2009.01.02 18:44:00 - [17] ok, thx all for your answers
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.02 18:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Motivated Prophet Originally by: Loaby perfect route http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete This. You are trying to do a variation of the traveling salesman problem. Finding the perfect route through 30 systems might be doable with the computing power you have, but it's probably not. Having said that, you should be able to come up with a short enough trip by plotting out your path on a map.
Icarus Flame Amarr Van Ness Pet Hospital	Posted - 2009.01.02 18:56:00 - [19] LOL at the OP asking for a solution to the Traveling Salesman problem... If I knew the answer, I would be a millionaire.
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.02 21:09:00 - [20] EMMA (check my sig) can optimise routes with several hundred waypoints in no more than a couple of minutes. It does not guarantee to find the best solution, but it will find a good solution. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Writ Insand	Posted - 2009.01.02 22:04:00 - [21] Edited by: Writ Insand on 02/01/2009 22:14:09 Quote: This. You are trying to do a variation of the traveling salesman problem. Finding the perfect route through 30 systems might be doable with the computing power you have, but it's probably not. Err...making a minimum spanning tree for a graph of 30 nodes would probably take less than a second... Edit : n/m, you said 'the perfect' route, which I missed...
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.02 22:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Writ Insand Quote: This. You are trying to do a variation of the traveling salesman problem. Finding the perfect route through 30 systems might be doable with the computing power you have, but it's probably not. Err...making a minimum spanning tree for a graph of 30 nodes would probably take less than a second... That's not the problem that needs to be solved though I think I grossly exaggerated the problem. If I traverse the tree, there are 29 connections between the 30 systems. Each connection is jumped twice, once while traversing down the tree and once while returning. That's 58 jumps total, if I want to end up where I started. Since most regions have loops, there are parts that don't need to be traversed. Those can be traveled once. This actually doesn't sound that bad since every connection is 1 jump. If the whole region was one giant loop, you'd get the minimum number of trips possible, 30, in a Hamiltonian cycle. It changes, if you takes warp times in system into account. If you try to optimize with that data (especially if there are systems with a large number of stations in system, then you're dealing with the full blown traveling salesman problem.
Alija de'Chiarr CF Capitalists Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.03 02:34:00 - [23] Edited by: Alija de''Chiarr on 03/01/2009 02:37:44 Quote: i could use the autopilot option to optimize all the waypoints but wouldnt that take a ridiculous long time with 30 (or something) waypoints? Yes. Don't even attempt to do that. I've given up on it and forcefully shut EVE down with 19 or so waypoints in my route after waiting for two hours or so. Since the whole thing scales badly, 30 or so should take... very long. You'd probably be done with just visiting them in random order by the time calculations are done. On a semi-unrelated note, if the OP is fine with not having an optimal route and a near-optimal one is sufficient, he may just try to apply genetic algorithms, hillclimbing and alike. Actually I have something like that sitting in my VisualStudio projects folder as I find myself in similar problems every now and then, but I haven't checked if the whole thing actually works yet. Also, minimal spanning trees aren't the answer for such a problem. They're mostly good at finding a route from one specific node to any other node within the graph, but this problem involves jumping back and forth between multiple nodes. Take this minimal spanning tree for instance and use it to "plot" a route from the bottom node to the one on the left. You'd end up with 8+8+2+3 instead of the direct route, which is 9.
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.03 09:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Alija de'Chiarr On a semi-unrelated note, if the OP is fine with not having an optimal route and a near-optimal one is sufficient, he may just try to apply genetic algorithms, hillclimbing and alike. Actually I have something like that sitting in my VisualStudio projects folder as I find myself in similar problems every now and then, but I haven't checked if the whole thing actually works yet. I guess you missed my post wo I'll post again in case anyone else missed it as well. EMMA can optimise routes with hundreds of waypoints in just a few seconds/minutes (depending on your PC ofc) My solution was to use a genetic algorithm as you suggest. It works better than I expected acutally and has proven very useful on a couple of occasions. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Loaby	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:13:00 - [25] whats emma?
jenga Caldari drunken bums	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:50:00 - [26] would something like eve map be what you are looking for eve map
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:54:00 - [27] Edited by: RaTTuS on 03/01/2009 12:57:29 Originally by: Loaby whats emma? check his sig - very useful it is here -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
Alija de'Chiarr CF Capitalists Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Ambo My solution was to use a genetic algorithm as you suggest. It works better than I expected acutally and has proven very useful on a couple of occasions. I wasn't aware of that, thanks. TBH I didn't have the heart to actually buy it as the errors that greeted me when I started it coupled with the pricing immediately made me go for the "uninstall" button. The approach however is a good one, kudos for implementing the genetic algorithm. I'm a bit curious though, have you tried hill climbing yet? I've seen it significantly outperform genetic and annealing algorithms when trying to tackle most problems (even if more than one hill climbing algorithm was running, tackling the problem per se from a different angle to avoid being trapped in local optima; shortest route from a to b in a graph was one of them). I almost feel tempted to call for a challenge along the lines of "x ISK for the best route optimization algorithm related to its runtime."
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Alija de'Chiarr Originally by: Ambo My solution was to use a genetic algorithm as you suggest. It works better than I expected acutally and has proven very useful on a couple of occasions. I wasn't aware of that, thanks. TBH I didn't have the heart to actually buy it as the errors that greeted me when I started it coupled with the pricing immediately made me go for the "uninstall" button. The approach however is a good one, kudos for implementing the genetic algorithm. I'm a bit curious though, have you tried hill climbing yet? I've seen it significantly outperform genetic and annealing algorithms when trying to tackle most problems (even if more than one hill climbing algorithm was running, tackling the problem per se from a different angle to avoid being trapped in local optima; shortest route from a to b in a graph was one of them). I almost feel tempted to call for a challenge along the lines of "x ISK for the best route optimization algorithm related to its runtime." Define "best". Remember to be careful--there are many algorithms that produce a very short runtime on average, but have outliers expressed with exponents. As a simple example, imagine a brute-force "perfect" technique that always chooses the left side of branch #1 as its first choice. This algorithm will* outperform any other brute-force algorithm in half of all cases, and will spin forever for the other half. Personally, I'd go with the Google approach--start one method on each (core/HT core/box), and see which one finishes soonest, then kill the rest. MP : Okay, "could conceivably" would be more accurate, but it's a simple example, so work with me here. -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral ~~compression~~expansion! WTF?*
Alija de'Chiarr CF Capitalists Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.03 17:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Alija de''Chiarr on 03/01/2009 17:23:59 Originally by: Motivated Prophet Define "best". Quality of a complete result in relation to the time the algorithm required to find it, not taking into account factors such as determinism. Naturally, outliers of most algorithms cannot exceed worst case complexity of O(n!), with the possible exception of algorithms that may try the same combination multiple times or can run into cycles. As with the outperforming thing I've mentioned above, I did say that there were multiple instances of the same algorithm running, outliers weren't an issue. Of course, running different algorithms may be more feasible, however local search algorithms will most likely outperform global search algorithms in most of the cases due to their limited scope while at the same time there is no guarantee for optimality. Killing all other searches because one local search algorithm thinks it has a solution may still be far away far from the quality all other instances would have found. I'd rather wait until I have multiple results from different strategies, or time's up, whichever happens first.

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