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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
638
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Posted - 2012.04.17 05:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:
This whine is just about making PvP more affordable/cheaper without meaning anything in terms of consequences.
So the F what? |
Torothanax
6
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Posted - 2012.04.17 05:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Wow, got enough bitternoobs 'round here? So some of us found the game before you, that means we shouldn't be able to enjoy it as well?
Sigras wrote:Honestly, as a fairly high SP character, i find clone costs extremely reasonable; and if you dont want to worry about buying new clones, fly in low sec, because if you get podded there . . . i dont even know what to say to you. Yeah, because lag never happens, no one flies sensor boosted interceptors, and no one lives right next to the server cluster with a 1 ms ping. Oh right, and no one EVER parks a smart bombing mother ship on a gate. Granted I don't get podded often, but it happens. As it is currently, I can't mitigate the risk. I HAVE to pay 45mil minimum for a clone. That's a good game mechanic in pvp game?
BTW killmail does show the implants you had in now. So have hunting for people that have like to fly with expensive implants. That's not me btw. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
235
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Posted - 2012.04.17 05:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
IIRC soundwave said something about doing something about excessive clone costs at fanfest. Soundwave owns and loves fun, I'm sure he'll come up with a good solution. |
Torothanax
6
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Posted - 2012.04.17 06:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:[quote=Marlona Sky][quote=Sigras]This whine is just about making PvP more affordable/cheaper without meaning anything in terms of consequences. There is no "whine" here. Well you sound kind of whiney, but that's beside the point. I've made a suggestion based on my experiences in game, and on sound logic.
Eve is supposed to be about risk vs reward. It's supposed to be about choices. The risk is supposed to be in the ship you fly, and the modules you put on it, whether or not you want to insure it, what you do with it, and the implants you want to put in your head. Clone costs on the other hand are mandatory. And don't give me any garbage about "don't buy one." The whole point of being a pod pilot is having a clone. NOT optional. How many of you all even know what happens when you get podded with an outdated clone?
Anyway, extremely high clone costs are just a punishment for playing the game. It's not like it's a huge game balance issue to adjust it. No one likes getting podded, and a higher SP total does nothing to reduce how often it happens. Why the unreasonable extra cost for vets? |
Torothanax
6
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Posted - 2012.04.17 06:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:IIRC soundwave said something about doing something about excessive clone costs at fanfest. Soundwave owns and loves fun, I'm sure he'll come up with a good solution. Awesome. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness
Psychotic Tendencies.
783
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Posted - 2012.04.17 06:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:This whine is just about making PvP more affordable/cheaper without meaning anything in terms of consequences.
Pretty ******* sure if you are podding someone, it means you or someone else, just blew up their ship moments before. Your argument on this issue is just plain weak and pathetic. 
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Kusum Fawn
State War Academy
Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.04.17 07:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
ah, just to address a few people here,
Buzzy -
Its true that you may look at it as a broken mechanic, but i said its another answer, not the only one. part of flying small low hp ships is the fact that there is a pretty good chance of getting explodified, and possibly podded. the higher sp a character you have generally the more knowledge you have about the game, course you could have bought the character, and then well that's on you. but the knowledge of the game means that you should have some way to support yourself. clone costs are something you have to support in return for having more sp. you dont have to do that you know. its a trade off for the better abilities that you have. even if they arent relevant to the ship or play style you are used to. you can always use one character, but there are risks to everything, the reward you already know about, better skills.
Gizznitt Malikite -
Gizznitt wrote:The only real advantages an older player has is contacts with whom to work with, capital to invest, experience to know what is worth their time, and what is not. However, since their clone costs so much more isk, anything they do with a high likelyhood of clone loss essentially equates to a "tax" for being older... and it's not a minor, no big deal tax.... Especially for 100+m sp characters...
as you get to older and more sp characters, you generally deal in progressively larger amounts of isk. because i imagine i know to a certain degree what it is that i am doing i can recoup my losses fairly easily. many people have a second character to fund their pvp habit. but not everyone does. ratting or plexing often is the main source of income. being older usually means you have contacts or links to larger groups (if you are pvping) the prices aren't that different then the ship/ fitting you will generally be in. i don't see the prices as being that absurd. if you make an effort to support yourself.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Station_services
Marlona Sky + Adunh Slavy
Because eve really likes to make you feel loss, when you feel loss it means you are invested emotionally. and when you are emotionally invested you keep playing to go find and kill that ******. or you sit and cry and never pick up the game again. the choice is yours, but you know when you do pod that guy, its a validating feeling, because its costing them.
Torothanax
Clone costs are not mandatory, in fact they aren't even required. You have to buy one distinctly, they aren't assigned automatically. however you will never stay dead unless you biomass. The risk is in everything. your ship, your fitting, your clone, your implants. where the hell did you get the idea that it wasn't in the clone too?
torothanax wrote:Clone costs on the other hand are mandatory. And don't give me any garbage about "don't buy one." The whole point of being a pod pilot is having a clone. NOT optional. How many of you all even know what happens when you get podded with an outdated clone
of course I know what happens when you don't buy a new clone, they get progressively cheaper. the way you wrote that makes it seem like you don't know what happens.
you always have a clone, always.
it doesnt always support your sp amounts.
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Torothanax
6
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Posted - 2012.04.17 07:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Just this one Kusum, I'll humor you with a reply. You troll me and you go on ignore.
Explain to me exactly what happens when you get podded without an updated clone. I don't think you really understand the mechanics and you are showing your ignorance.
It's not a real option to fly with an inadequate clone. It defeats the entire purpose of the skill training system to lose sp and go backward. The only reason you have to actually update your clone manually is to give a feel of realism, loss, and a sense of responsibility for one's self. It's for immersion. It's also a "duh" check to weed out people who probably shouldn't play eve. If it were an option we'd be able to delete skills.
Eve isn't just about risk, it's about choice. Sand box ring a bell? I should be able to choose what I risk. I don't have to fly expensive ships. It's my option. I don't have to fit implants. It's my option. I don't have to go into null space or even low sec. It's my option. SP isn't optional though, it's required to do anything in game. It's earned over time. It's a reward for sticking around. Everyone who plays for long enough will get to where I am, so why punish everyone for playing the game? |
Beat General
Sons of Retribution
Malice Alliance
10
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Posted - 2012.04.17 09:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Make clone upgrade costs as much as making a jump clone...
Cheap as hell.
This encourages pvp because people won't be scared of being podded then having to fork up.
Why would a 70mil SP pilot ever go into 0.0 with a cheap frigate if he has to pay a fortune if he dies in a bubble / next to an inty. |
Whitehound
116
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Posted - 2012.04.17 10:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
While I agree with Marlona's direction do I still think that some costs should be. Some players fly without any implants to be as cheap as possible. For them it would play directly into their style and I do not want to support this. Some cost needs to remain. The chance or the fear of losing some skills alone does not do it. Pod kills need to have some factor that makes them unwanted or people start using it as a transportation system (pod kill gets you home fastest). |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
649
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Posted - 2012.04.17 15:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Marlona Sky + Adunh Slavy
Because eve really likes to make you feel loss, when you feel loss it means you are invested emotionally. and when you are emotionally invested you keep playing to go find and kill that ******. or you sit and cry and never pick up the game again. the choice is yours, but you know when you do pod that guy, its a validating feeling, because its costing them.
I'm into my seventh year on Eve, I'm already invested, thank you for your concern with regards to my emotional state. |
Astroniomix
EliteTroll
51
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Posted - 2012.04.17 16:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Torothanax wrote:Just this one Kusum, I'll humor you with a reply. You troll me and you go on ignore.
Explain to me exactly what happens when you get podded without an updated clone. I don't think you really understand the mechanics and you are showing your ignorance.
It's not a real option to fly with an inadequate clone. It defeats the entire purpose of the skill training system to lose sp and go backward. The only reason you have to actually update your clone manually is to give a feel of realism, loss, and a sense of responsibility for one's self. It's for immersion. It's also a "duh" check to weed out people who probably shouldn't play eve. If it were an option we'd be able to delete skills.
Eve isn't just about risk, it's about choice. Sand box ring a bell? I should be able to choose what I risk. I don't have to fly expensive ships. It's my option. I don't have to fit implants. It's my option. I don't have to go into null space or even low sec. It's my option. SP isn't optional though, it's required to do anything in game. It's earned over time. It's a reward for sticking around. Everyone who plays for long enough will get to where I am, so why punish everyone for playing the game?
You lose skillpoints from a few randomly selected skills equal to a percentage of the difference between your current clone's sp limit and how many sp you actualy have. |
Torothanax
9
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Posted - 2012.04.18 00:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:You lose skillpoints from a few randomly selected skills equal to a percentage of the difference between your current clone's sp limit and how many sp you actualy have. This is what I'm talking about. People posting here don't even know what happens when your clone isn't up to date and you get podded. So much ignorance behind the "he's got more SP then me so he deserves bad stuff". |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae
ROMANIAN-LEGION
121
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Posted - 2012.04.18 00:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
I agree that it is starting to get expensive. In null, I must watch when and how I pvp, really limits how much I am willing to risk simply because of how I earn isk. I can fly my implant free clone, I can fly cheap ships. but it is a tossup, cheap and useless for the SP I have to replace many clones, or fly actual end game style ships. I choose latter, but must be cautious because of it. |
Torothanax
9
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Posted - 2012.05.01 11:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:I agree that it is starting to get expensive. In null, I must watch when and how I pvp, really limits how much I am willing to risk simply because of how I earn isk. I can fly my implant free clone, I can fly cheap ships. but it is a tossup, cheap and useless for the SP I have to replace many clones, or fly actual end game style ships. I choose latter, but must be cautious because of it. Exactly.
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Carton Mantory
Occassus Republica
Trade Wind Commodities
10
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Posted - 2012.05.01 12:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
I think all clones should cost the same. Just like switching stations and Modify orders.
Make clones cost 1million isk . They should cover the sp as long as you have one.
Clones should not be a isk sink.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
349
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Posted - 2012.05.01 15:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:
The only solution to this is to remove clone upgrades all together.
Well I'm not sure it needs a solution and I do think there are better solutions. Older characters get a clear advantage in combat. But lets be precise on what that advantage is:
It is the option to have more skills. Its not that they have more skills. Its that they tend to have the option to have more skills.
Right now I am considering whether I want to train capitals on my main or on an alt. There are pros and cons of each but one factor is that i do more pvp on my main and the cost of clone will go up for him. I'm not saying its a big factor but I at least thought about it.
And again lossing your clone actually doesn't cost anything. It is replacing your clone with one that will save your skill points that costs isk. I'm not saying that people don't almost always choose to pay this. They do. But don't ignore the fact that it is a choice.
You pay isk so you keep the skill points that make the clone upgrade cost more. Now currently the system of how you lose skill points for getting podded is fairly arbitrary. But what if they changed that?
What if you could choose where you would lose your skill points if you were podded without an upgraded clone. You could choose to lose those mining skillpoints or whatever and then your clone wouldn't cost so much. I'm not saying people would do that but who knows.
What if you could decide what skillpoints you would lose and you would actually get back 1/2 or 2/3s of them to assign where you want?
I am not in favor of removing choices from the game. The problem isn't so much that the cost of the clones is high. Its actually that the cost of the clones is so low that we don't even recognize it as a choice to upgrade the clone.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mordus Angels
245
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Posted - 2012.05.01 15:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
Maybe I missed it, but I think I have a good solution for this.
Make the clone upgrades like buying a skillbook.
Clones themselves are free, but you must purchase upgrades to higher levels. Each level of clone upgrading should have a one time cost, each time becoming more expensive.
The higher level books should cost billions.
And really, the penalty for forgetting to upgrade your clone, the way it is now? Ridiculous.
Only people who actually forgot, often for reasons they never planned, will ever be affected by this. Noone is dumb enough to say let's take a risk like that with years of training at stake.
You cost someone years of training, how happy and likely are they going to be with continuing to play EVE? Let's not forget this will impact other players, especially if they supported a corporation in a manner that is no longer possible. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
30
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Posted - 2012.05.01 15:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Well since we already have the skill point alocation function in the game, why not use that to resolve the issue..
Clones cant train skills say without the setting of "original" Just the highest skilled clone.
When you install a clone you get to buy the number of skill points in it, and ofc you own max say minus 10%.
You can not train and inject new skills, so it would basically be a lighter version of your main clone.
Yes you would need to spend a while setting up your skills, but a simple auto fill feature would make this a non issue.
Auto fill by skill group would be optimal.
The prices should not only stay, they should be hiked up to about twice the price. So old players would be more willing to make light versions and even loose more in per SP death then everyone else.. Would be healthy for pvp and for distribution of wealth to the rest of the playerbase and a nice considerable isk sink..
Dunno how coding heavy, but its the solution type that really would motivate old carebears to risk a lot more..
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Carton Mantory
Occassus Republica
Trade Wind Commodities
10
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Posted - 2012.05.01 16:22:00 -
[50] - Quote
how about this.
I believe that we should remove skillbooks.Instead use memory cards. Levels of memory cards is a time factor you have played the game.
You should be able to sell memory cards on the market. You want a racial BS IV buy it. I think thats uber. The longer you play the more memory credits you earn and you can purchase memory cards.
An Account has three slots and at any time you can move those memory cards around. If you want to pvp in a clone that worth 3mill isk cool if you want a capital ship move your memory cards to that clone. Therefore you only have one char to an account no more alts. Those are actual clones. Jump clones are the same. Your memory cards are downloaded to that clone.
So to clearify. You start with three clones you play will all your memory cards assorted between your three clones. When you get podded ,your memory cards are downloaded and backed up all the time, are replaced based on your clone grade. Jump clones are bodies you can download your memory cards to.. |
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Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
208
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Posted - 2012.05.01 18:47:00 -
[51] - Quote
Simple idea to decrease a faucet without losing a sink:
Subtract the clone cost from insurance with a minimum of 0. If I lose a ship insured for 200M with a clone worth 50M, I get 150M back. If I lose my pod as well, I lose SP if I'm below the clone's SP limit. If I lose a ship insured for 2M with a clone worth 10M, I get nothing for insurance.
Then we can add something fun like: if you lose a ship in a manner that does not pay out insurance, CONCORD will not cover the difference. |
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
10
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Posted - 2012.05.01 19:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
let the market decide. player owned stations/pos modules that can do this and charge at whatever rate they decide
ONLY THE HARD.-á ONLY THE STRONG. |
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