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Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
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Posted - 2009.01.23 01:25:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 23/01/2009 01:41:26
Maybe i am the only one who thinks a bit different. For me the mineral prices seem preety low. Because behind mining there are players. And their time should cost more than what it does now. Despite the hysteria about veldspar costing too much mining pays little. It is still better doing other things.
So veldspar is not now overpriced. It was just underpriced all this time for a bunch of reasons.
Each player has the right to determine the price for their efford. There should not be a supposed fixed price for the minerals. The price of minerals should be mostly determined by the miners themselves. Of course supply and demand plays it's role but it is the miner who makes the initial deal. and the miner should have more self respect for his time/work aka more respect for himself. All this time everyone was getting richer by the minerals prices except of the miners. This happens in real life too. The people who produce the stuff with lots of hard and boring work get the least of wealth while others that take advantage of their labor and manipulate the markets without doing anything very useful gain much much more.
It looks to me like these people now are complaining because the supposed raise in price of trit will cut them a share of their humongus profits. I say it was about time.
But anyway. In worst case scenario what will happen will be the prices to get raised accordingly. In effect what will happen will be the average miner's time/isk ratio to rise while everybnody else's to fall a bit. And i think it would befair because despite the hysteria about the tremendously high prices of trit not one of you would go mine still. Think why you don;t go and then you will realise that what happens now is the right thing.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.01.23 02:23:00 -
[92]
Oh it's a great time to be a miner, you can make lots of cash with very little actual effort, I can clean the kitchen and read the kids a bedtime story while grinding away at veldspar in the safety of hi-sec.
It's also a boring time to be a miner because almost anything else I can mine will be less profitable
- no point ninja mining in low-sec
- no reason to scan down gravimetric signatures
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.01.23 06:20:00 -
[93]
Akita T's proposal entirely misses one reason why Tritanium is so expensive: it's so bulky compared to its per-unit value that hauling it any significant distance is counter-productive. Being able to suck up even more ore per cycle will not help make Tritanium more available.
All you folks thinking that depleting veldspar from Empire will push people out into lowsec are mission another point: mining is not something that people do for fun. Mining is an incidental activity which generates lower income than mission-running. The only advantage of mining is that it doesn't require complete attention.
If mining is changed to require more manual interaction with the game, you'll find the price of minerals skyrocketing. This will occur for two reason - people who currently mine semi-AFK will stop mining, and those who keep mining will be seeking more remuneration for their real world time.
If mining is changed to encourage miners to enter lowsec, you'll again find the price of minerals skyrocketing. This will (again) occur for two reasons - people who currently mine in hisec will be shy of going into lowsec and will want to make more money for exactly the same work due to the risk of loss. People who go into lowsec to mine will also be hiring bodyguards, who will want fair recompense for their time.
One "solution" to the "tritanium is too expensive" problem is to make tritanium take up half (or less) of the volume it currently does. This will not alter yields, this will not alter refining. It will have an impact on tritanium compression schemes, and it will make a single run with a freighter load of tritanium more profitable in terms of ISK/hr.
In the meantime, the supply of tritanium will go up exponentially as the price rises, simply because the rising prices will bring more veldspar-laden systems into the jump-radius inside which it will be profitable to mine it.
I am actively mining veldspar in systems up to 12 jumps away from trade hubs. This is my semi-AFK activity. I then run the veldspar to the trade hub while semi-afk, occasionally guiding my convoy to warp-to-zero instead of letting it lumber its way across 15km of the most dangerous space in EVE (that's the area around stargates, especially near trade hubs).
In order to convince me to mine and haul as my at-keyboard income earning activity, tritanium would have to be three times as valuable as it is now. That of course would end up pushing GTC prices out of my realm of affordability.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.23 08:11:00 -
[94]
 Originally by: Mara Rinn
Akita T's proposal entirely misses one reason why Tritanium is so expensive: it's so bulky compared to its per-unit value that hauling it any significant distance is counter-productive. Being able to suck up even more ore per cycle will not help make Tritanium more available.
Well, if you could suck up an (almost) equivalent ISK/hour worth of Veldspar locally compared to any other ore type (including others that have a noticeable amount of Tritanium), wouldn't that basically mean "hey, how about I just mine it here" would become the norm a lot more often ? 
Quote:
If mining is changed to require more manual interaction with the game, you'll find the price of minerals skyrocketing. This will occur for two reason - people who currently mine semi-AFK will stop mining, and those who keep mining will be seeking more remuneration for their real world time.
Some people actually mine as an income source because they can't run missions, or are simply not interested in running missions. I should know, I had personal experience with several of them, you actually have to remind them every now and then that they should at least tag along in missions for a bit of standings. They're not exactly AFK either, they just consider solo missions too risky (after a couple of ship losses due to inexperience)... and yes, there's also the mostly AFK type, and then there's the "I want to be a builder" type, and so on and so forth.
People who mine now won't stop mining, a minority might, but most of them will keep going. And besides, for the "base ore types", compared to right now, the actual yield only would go UP, so if *everybody* is too lazy to mine a bit more interactively, we would just have a situation identical to that we have now.
The proposal only opens up the *possibility* of faster lowend mining, wether anybody takes it or not is another problem. My bet is that most would, you assume almost nobody would.
Quote:
If mining is changed to encourage miners to enter lowsec, you'll again find the price of minerals skyrocketing. This will (again) occur for two reasons - people who currently mine in hisec will be shy of going into lowsec and will want to make more money for exactly the same work due to the risk of loss. People who go into lowsec to mine will also be hiring bodyguards, who will want fair recompense for their time.
If the ratios for the densities are properly set (according to base costs of ores derived from desired base prices of minerals), then the desire of miners to make as much ISK/hour as possible can only have one single final result, namely a rebalancing of mineral (and ore) prices along the same RATIOS as the base.
Also, if you set the density multiplier of 0.4 vs 0.5 different enough, then those people going to mine into lowsec WILL make more money, since they can mine a lot faster (while the individual ore trends would still be towards base price ratios).
The overall price of minerals can only go DOWN since the overall supply would go UP. But it won't go down much because we're at insurance-scam-levels, so all it will happen is we'll see a gradual, slow auto-rebalancing of everything towards base price ratios (just a bit lower due to insurance premiums).
Buy yeah, trit compression could be some kind of a problem - but it is only a problem for those that want to mine for purpose of selling minerals. People who would instead choose to use the tritanium "on the spot" and sell the manufacture results locally would only see benefits.
But since the main ISK-equivalent mining income will actually come from 0.0, that means all big 0.0 blocs will ship out less highends and just build all needed things locally, since getting enough Tritanium locally won't be much of a problem... thus helping resolve the current issue for lowsec too, indirectly, even if people there choose to NOT mine Veldspar
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
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Posted - 2009.01.23 12:19:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Oh it's a great time to be a miner, you can make lots of cash with very little actual effort, I can clean the kitchen and read the kids a bedtime story while grinding away at veldspar in the safety of hi-sec.
It's also a boring time to be a miner because almost anything else I can mine will be less profitable
- no point ninja mining in low-sec
- no reason to scan down gravimetric signatures
I start to belive that people who say that have never actually mined. I bet you mean mining in a Hulk/Covetor because you can't afk mining in anything else simply because with the open can method you need to be there to drag and drop....
But the afk mining in hulk/covetor has another little problem apart the rather rare but always possible high sec ganging you might get.
The ores usually last for about 2 cycles each. Others last for 2 and 1/2 before they get depleted and all your hard earned skills to increase ore yield goes out of the window.
Even with an ore scanner you will have to waste cycles or lose entire laser cycles in cases were the laser A will need 1 more cycle before it gets the ore finished while the other has already stoped. If you are afk mining you will miss all that and i doupt you can occupy with your kid for less than 6 minutes then run in haste to your computer to pick new targets and set new cycle and then return to finish the story. All this is hilarious and can't really happen.
Of course you can make some profit with AFK mining but that profit is about 50% of what your in paper/EFT profit seems initially. Now if you could find ores with 120.000m3 Veldspar (found in mission pockets) you can afk mining but you may get the occasional rats that will spawn in the mission pocket if you are mining and are harder than the "normal" ones spawned in belts of high sec so you will be better in Hulk for safety reasons.
But to do this you will have to run missions which pays more. So theafk mining you so much praise can happen if you are runing missions with your main and have a hulk alt that you can set to afk mine while you will be salvaging with the other at the end of mission. Still not many players have 2 accounts configured like this and are set to do this everytime for a couple of millions more in profit.
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Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
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Posted - 2009.01.23 12:22:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
....(stuff)
Nice post. I agree. |
Forceflow
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.23 13:18:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
But the afk mining in hulk/covetor has another little problem apart the rather rare but always possible high sec ganging you might get.
The ores usually last for about 2 cycles each. Others last for 2 and 1/2 before they get depleted and all your hard earned skills to increase ore yield goes out of the window.
Nope. Problem lies with you. You need a better location.
Quote:
But to do this you will have to run missions which pays more. So theafk mining you so much praise can happen if you are runing missions with your main and have a hulk alt that you can set to afk mine while you will be salvaging with the other at the end of mission. Still not many players have 2 accounts configured like this and are set to do this everytime for a couple of millions more in profit.
Now this is just odd. People would rather just bring their hulk out once the mission is done but before they turn it in. |
Oru Tek
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Posted - 2009.01.23 13:26:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Now if you could find ores with 120.000m3 Veldspar (found in mission pockets) you can afk mining but you may get the occasional rats that will spawn in the mission pocket if you are mining and are harder than the "normal" ones spawned in belts of high sec so you will be better in Hulk for safety reasons.
Depends on the mission. I can think of only one mission that might have the above problem. Virtually all missions with roids have normal belt rat activity when you mine. |
Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
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Posted - 2009.01.23 14:26:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Forceflow
Nope. Problem lies with you. You need a better location.
Well if you have to make 10 jumps it doesn't worth it.
Quote:
Now this is just odd. People would rather just bring their hulk out once the mission is done but before they turn it in.
It still doesn't worth it with one account. It is better go salvage and turn the mission in instead of salvage then grab Hulk mine and then turn mission in. The profit you will make from mining Veld in mission pocket is less than if you would spend that time doing next mission. |
Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
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Posted - 2009.01.23 14:28:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Oru Tek
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Now if you could find ores with 120.000m3 Veldspar (found in mission pockets) you can afk mining but you may get the occasional rats that will spawn in the mission pocket if you are mining and are harder than the "normal" ones spawned in belts of high sec so you will be better in Hulk for safety reasons.
Depends on the mission. I can think of only one mission that might have the above problem. Virtually all missions with roids have normal belt rat activity when you mine.
Th eother problem with roids in mission pockets isthat not always are near the entrance point. Having to run 10 to 50km in Hulk is a tedious task. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2009.01.23 15:50:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Originally by: Oru Tek
Depends on the mission. I can think of only one mission that might have the above problem. Virtually all missions with roids have normal belt rat activity when you mine.
Th eother problem with roids in mission pockets isthat not always are near the entrance point. Having to run 10 to 50km in Hulk is a tedious task.
I haven't noticed any notably different rats around my mining attempts in missions so I'm in agreement with Oru Tek on the rat thing. But Zaran Darkstar is quite right about travel times. There's a number of missions (eg, recon 1/3) where you have to fly a bunch (and jump through a couple of gates) to get to the good stuff. The hulk is a terrible ship when it comes to speed. The grid is amazingly low so you can't fit a useful AB. Even a cruiser AB (assuming you sacrifice some combination of low slots, riggings, and implants to fit one) doesn't do that much for you since the hulk weighs about 3-4 times as much as the average cruiser. You'd probably be better off fitting speed riggings, if you want more speed.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.01.23 15:54:00 -
[102]
Oh there are many problems with mining in mission pockets, the main one being getting the good missions to spawn.
Best IMHO is 'Break Their Will', it's a level 1 mission which has about 3million Veldspar and some scordite. The Veldspar rocks are about 70k each and in a 50km ring around the repair station, and no Mission rats spawn until you attack the repair station. The mission isn't in deadspace so you can bookmark the rocks and warp to them.
Jetcanning in mission spaces is a whole lot safer since you pretty much have to get scanned down for people to flip your can. But I'm in a hulk which can carry more than any hauler I can fly so I don't even use a jetcan, except for excess left over at the end of a cycle. |
alexxr
Gallente
Trader's Academy
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2009.01.23 16:20:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Some people actually mine as an income source because they can't run missions, or are simply not interested in running missions. I should know, I had personal experience with several of them, you actually have to remind them every now and then that they should at least tag along in missions for a bit of standings. They're not exactly AFK either, they just consider solo missions too risky (after a couple of ship losses due to inexperience)...
hey thats me to a tee i would even say as proof to her statement |
Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.01.23 19:12:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ulstan
So, low sec ore could be 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 times as valuable as hi sec ore, most of the people mining in high sec simply couldn't mine in low sec.
EVE history suggests you are wrong, because a lot of people actually did bother to live in lowsec MAINLY because lowsec ore used to be about twice as valuable as highsec ore, and that was about two years ago (before the drone regions).
Yes, back before the drone regions, big 0.0 alliances, the sov system, mass L4 mission running, the explosion of pirates making low sec dangerous, etc etc, people DID mine in low sec.
I don't really see how that's relevant to a discussion of low sec mining in today's game state, however. Obviously if enough other variables are changed low sec mining could be profitable. My point is simply changing the isk value of low sec ore to hi sec ore will accomplish little.
The danger in low sec is not simply twice the danger in highsec, to be neatly balanced out by twice the income potential.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.24 00:10:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ulstan
My point is simply changing the isk value of low sec ore to hi sec ore will accomplish little.
Well, it's a start  |
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