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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.11 07:13:00 -
[1]
...is usually zero when they're spouting nonsense.
Just because somebody has an opposing viewpoint doesn't mean we should feel the least bit obligated to respect it without reserve, especially when that viewpoint stems from an acute lack of education, understanding, knowledge or mental acuity.
Actually, quite the contrary, it is a major disservice to the human race as a whole just as for the local society and even the particular person with the opposing viewpoint NOT to point out the glaring defficiencies in his logic.
What I'm probably trying to say, Political Correctness as a concept... it's just bullcrap.
And trying to not hurt somebody's feelings regardless of why... even moreso.
Yeah, sure, you're free to think your kids are smart or your wife beautiful, and I can respect that since it hurts nobody.
But when you let your at-best-mediocre wife attend a beauty pageant then get upset she didn't win, now that I can't be possibly expected to respect, that's just silly.
Or worse, when you try to enrol your stupid kids in the same class as the actual smart kids then complain "the education system has a problem", now then we have a serious problem, and all due respect is way, WAY out the window.
Respecting other people's opinions regardless of their quality or veridicity is crap.
And people who try to push that particular viewpoint on the issue are worthy of nothing but contempt, if not downright hatered.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.01.11 08:12:00 -
[2]
... is exactly zero. Congratulations, you have an opinion, that's hardly a respect-worthy feat of brilliant intellect. Now, I'm not completely heartless, if I feel someone is wrong, I give them a chance to listen and discuss the subject reasonably. But if they just reject that chance and continue ranting on, ignore everything I said, start insulting me, etc, respect is gone and their only purpose is entertaining me and/or anyone who happens to be watching the execution.
If you want respect, you get it by doing two things:
1) Having an opinion that fits into reality. Some things are up for debate, but if you ignore science/logic/etc in forming your opinions, you get zero respect.
2) Defending your opinion rationally. If you don't understand your positions well enough to defend them against criticism, how exactly are they any better than if you'd just flipped a coin to decide and managed to get the right answer by blind luck?
Oh, as you might guess from this thread, I have even less respect for pseudo-scientific frauds, and I will do what I can to publicly expose and humiliate them. Don't expect to bluff your way to an image of intelligence by throwing around of scientific-sounding nonsense and hoping your audience won't know enough to call that bluff, and don't expect any kindness when you run into an expert who does. |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.01.11 08:19:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Sera Ryskin
1) Having an opinion that fits into reality. Some things are up for debate, but if you ignore science/logic/etc in forming your opinions, you get zero respect.
2) Defending your opinion rationally. If you don't understand your positions well enough to defend them against criticism, how exactly are they any better than if you'd just flipped a coin to decide and managed to get the right answer by blind luck?
My reality and rational are totally different to yours. I wouldn't possibly expect you to understand where my point of view comes from, not in the least because you haven't seen, heard or felt the things I have. Unless you have witnessed a revolution or two and have seen the horrible things people do to eachother.
Originally by: Akita T
... is exactly zero.
And what makes your opinion respectable over mine? Unlike most people I have witnessed what I speak of but because I don't fit in within the scope of what they have been fed my idea's are 'extreme'.
Ignorance is bliss and that's how most people live their lives, making those who have not witnessed what they speak off irrelevant. Think about that. |
Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.01.11 08:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 11/01/2009 08:31:34
Originally by: Super Whopper
My reality and rational are totally different to yours. I wouldn't possibly expect you to understand where my point of view comes from, not in the least because you haven't seen, heard or felt the things I have. Unless you have witnessed a revolution or two and have seen the horrible things people do to eachother.
I think you're thinking of something a bit different here. I'm talking about objective facts, not personal experiences (which I will respect just fine). For example, if you claim that Jesus made the entire universe 6000 years ago and defend that position in defiance of all evidence otherwise, don't expect me to respect your nonsense.
That falls under point #2, by the way, personal experience is just fine for supporting your positions (though it doesn't overrule everything else, if there is contradictory evidence).
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Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.11 08:59:00 -
[5]
There is no other place to put this link without starting a new thread, which I was thinking about. This is from back in 1991 and I just refreshed myself with the album when I opened up my box of tapes.
Prove You Wrong
Diggin' for answers you fall in a hole
Lessons of nonsense shall cast the first stone
Pontifical preachings past now quick to forget 'em
I'm depending on no one I distrust and oppose
Prove you, prove you wrong
You can bet on it, I'll prove you wrong
Prove you, prove you wrong
Depend on it, I'll prove you wrong
Quest for solutions
You ain't gonna get one here
Why waste my breath upon the ears of the deaf man
Skeptic acceptance caution
Fraudulent cause
Dependence on no one best distrust and oppose
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
≡v≡ |
Elron Hubward
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:02:00 -
[6]
Wow. A thread about respect in OOPE.
I think my Iron-o meter just melted. You guys are americans aren't you? Go on, admit it.
IBTL for the inevitable re-railing of this transplanted thread.
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Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Elron Hubward
You guys are americans aren't you?
WTF does that have to do with anything?
Oh yes, I am from the US 
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
≡v≡ |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:15:00 -
[8]
Respect has to be earned (over and over again).
Respect is given, not demanded or taken.
Reasons to give respect are subjective.
Things that earn you respect from one person earns you despise from another.
You do not need respect from everyone.
You do not need to (cannot) respect everyone.
Getting offended is your fault for taking another's opinion more seriously than your own views.
If you get hurt by the words of another person you just need to develop past being a spineless, thin skinned maggot.
That is all.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:23:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Akita T on 11/01/2009 09:26:11
Originally by: Super Whopper
And what makes your opinion respectable over mine ?
That's the beauty of it : by default, absolutely nothing 
You can be the most respected <insert profession here> in the world, when you present some opinion, it SHOULD be considered by the same standards one would consider a layman's opinion, and vice-versa.
Agreed, the specialist is very likely to be correct and the layman is quite likely to be wrong if the subject of that opinion is related to the specialist's field of expertise, but that doesn't mean you should automatically "respect the opinion" put forth by any of them - feel free to disagree, criticize and attempt to prove them wrong (assuming you are able to do so in the first place anyway - meaning you will argue your own conflicting opinion).
Each individual opinion has to be separately weighted for its own merits or demerits, without regard for the opinion holder's status.
And the USUAL, RECOMMENDED, ADVISABLE approach towards any opinion that isn't already identical to your own should always be "it could be wrong".
Progress is not acheived by agreeing to disagree.
Progress is made by proving the other guy wrong while confirming what you know to be right as actually being such (or accepting you are wrong in case you are wrong, and adopting the opinion that was proven to be right).
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:28:00 -
[10]
Progress is made when both parties accept that they are wrong and a combination of both their opinions is closer to reality.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:31:00 -
[11]
The only thing I read so far, is that you will only tolerate my opinion if I earned your respect before. Sorry but this is totally wrong. It has also nothing to do with science.
What is happening right now is, when someone makes an argument, the people who disagree are attacking the person that made the argument, not the argument itself.
Scientists are not calling each others Noob and that their arguments should never be considered because the people who made the argument are coming from a carebear university, or something like that.
What scientists will do is attack other scientists theories, rip it apart and put it back together, just to check if there is any flaw in it and the scientist who proposed the theory, should better hope his theory can stand the test.
That is real scientific method and discussions in this forum would be better if people would learn to attack an argument and not the person behind it.
There is no reason to agree to a flawed argument out of politeness, but there is never a reason to start an ad hominem attack because you think the poster is stupid. If you think someone is stupid, keep the thought to yourself and instead tell them why their arguments are wrong.
Respect be damned, we are not in a Ghetto and I do not care about your respect. Give me a reason to agree or disagree to what you say, I will never just believe your argument because you are in the super-elite PvP corp or are a forum ***** since the dawn of the internet.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.11 09:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
The only thing I read so far, is that you will only tolerate my opinion if I earned your respect before.
Precisely the opposite. Read it again more carefully.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Davina Braben
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:18:00 -
[13]
You have to respect people's right to their opinion and you have to treat them with some respect regardless of what you think of their opinion.
It's quite possibly to have a difference of opinion with someone and still respect them and/or treat them with respect.
I don't regard this as being a new idea but rather a fairly old one.
You also have to realize that not everything is a question of right or wrong and that not every opinion is a falsifiable hypothesis to be proved or disproved. Sometimes you just disagree with people because you're coming from fundamentally different places. This is OK.
Quote:
You can be the most respected <insert profession here> in the world, when you present some opinion, it SHOULD be considered by the same standards one would consider a layman's opinion
Yes it should, but as a layman considering an experts opinion you should probably give them some benefit of the doubt and read what they're saying carefully because if it's their field they might know what they're talking about in the same way the man on the street doesn't.
OFC being an expert they will also be expected to set all this out carefully and explain their reasoning.
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Zetsubou Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:21:00 -
[14]
Surely respect is something that is earned? A lot of people seem to have the attitude that you start off having respect, and then lose it if you act like a ****. Is it just me, or does this seem completely wonky?
____________________
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Surely respect is something that is earned? A lot of people seem to have the attitude that you start off having respect, and then lose it if you act like a ****. Is it just me, or does this seem completely wonky?
You get a certain amount just for being a human being actually.
Notice how people don't spit at you in the street, refer to you as "****breath" and urinate through your mailbox?
That isn't because everyone likes you.
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Zetsubou Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Davina Braben
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Surely respect is something that is earned? A lot of people seem to have the attitude that you start off having respect, and then lose it if you act like a ****. Is it just me, or does this seem completely wonky?
You get a certain amount just for being a human being actually.
Notice how people don't spit at you in the street, refer to you as "****breath" and urinate through your mailbox?
That isn't because everyone likes you.
Surely, it's a linear scale with "derision" at one end, "respect" at the other, and by default we start halfway between the two?
____________________
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:31:00 -
[17]
I've always wondered why certain opinions even *expect* to be respected and respond violently if you question even the must stupendous claims they make.. |
Davina Braben
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:31:00 -
[18]
Quote:
1) To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2) To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3) To relate or refer to; concern.
I'd say the middle definition meant that if people who don't like you (there's lots. Hate makes the world go round) aren't actively ****ing with you then they are showing you some respect. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:43:00 -
[19]
Respecting the speed limit is a bit different than respecting the claim that a virgin had a baby. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.01.11 11:02:00 -
[20]
It all depends, if it's an opinion (art, music, stuff like that) then I have no problem with it, to each their own etc.
If it's about belief then I have more trouble with it as the rational me cannot understand why people would cling to stuff like that, but as long as those people have the decency to not state their beliefs as facts and not force others to share them or be influenced by them, it's still ok.
Sheer stupidity, obvious lack of braincells/logic or moronic ideas I have no respect for and I'm more than willing make that person understand he's a ret@rd.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2009.01.11 11:17:00 -
[21]
FACTS ARE LIES THE TRUTH IS EVIDENT WITH OUT EVIDENCE BECAUSE OBJECTIVE IS SUBJECTIVE DUE TO PERSPECTIVE, MAN |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.01.11 11:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin
That falls under point #2, by the way, personal experience is just fine for supporting your positions (though it doesn't overrule everything else, if there is contradictory evidence).
What is contradictory evidence than being told what anyone or anything wants you to know?
I will give examples below that I do not want to turn into some stupid political discussion. I will report all who flame this.
Fact I:
Iraq will welcome its liberation with open arms.
Truth:
Do I even need to provide any?
Fact II:
China is a dictatoriship that squashes all religious, political and other forms of speech.
Personal opinion:
I can, without a doubt, say that what you are told by the media is a lie.
Now is this about respect or is this about who has the biggest mouth? You can provide whatever 'proof' you want but you will never prove me right, not in the least because your 'evidence' is not first hand or polluted.
I do not want to discuss Tibet, Xinjiang, Burma, or any other place on earth. Remember this thread is about respect and all I wanted to do was prove that personal experience, by far, outweighs what you think you know just because you have never experienced it. If you don't want to experience something that is fine but do not claim something just based on what the media tells you, that is the least respectful thing you can do.
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Blue Binary
Polychoron
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:04:00 -
[23]
imho, Respect is what you value. It could be someone's thoughts, feelings, experience, ability, etc.
Opinions are subjective, facts are truth. People often confuse the two which can cause this.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:07:00 -
[24]
Facts are not truth, they are widely agreed upon assumptions. |
Blue Binary
Polychoron
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vabjekf
Facts are not truth, they are widely agreed upon assumptions.
A Court of Law does not operate on "assumptions".
Facts are generally accepted as proven truths, until proven otherwise.
______________________________________
Backup & Restore settings for Eve |
Vabjekf
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:23:00 -
[26]
sure it does, it decides if people are guilty beyond REASONABLE doubt, not ALL doubt, that would be impossible! A fact is just something that everyone agrees is probably true, and is important enough within the currently understood model of the universe that people drop the probably.
The only truth that can be absolute is the kind that does not require anything external to be evident. And those are very few in number and rarely go beyond 'stating the obvious' |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin
I'm talking about objective facts
This in a thread about science made me lol. |
Kessiaan
Minmatar
Army of One
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:35:00 -
[28]
It all comes back to the Golden Rule: "He who has the gold, makes the rules." |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.11 13:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vabjekf
sure it does, it decides if people are guilty beyond REASONABLE doubt, not ALL doubt, that would be impossible! A fact is just something that everyone agrees is probably true, and is important enough within the currently understood model of the universe that people drop the probably.
The only truth that can be absolute is the kind that does not require anything external to be evident. And those are very few in number and rarely go beyond 'stating the obvious'
If you want to be more accurate you will have to say that no human being can actually grasp absolute objective truth. The mid is limited in its capacity and it is limited to the information it gets from the senses.
Objective reality exists without being perceived. As a human you can only belief that this objective reality exists. It could all be in our heads only and we wouldn't be able to know the difference because everything *is* actually only in our heads. The mind is isolated from reality through its senses, filtered and limited to what can be grasped.
Have fun dissecting what you know to what is real even without being defined, interpreted or perceived. What is a color? What are words? What are morals? What is heat? What is time? |
baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.11 14:01:00 -
[30]
While I might not respect a point of veiw or opinion, merin's opinions about bombers for instance, I still make a point about being a gentleman about it. Afterall there are several things we do agree on. |
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