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Appolymi
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Appolymi on 14/01/2009 08:31:50
Hey all - I've searched and browsed through pages in this forum, and I've been unable to find something identical to my idea. Therefore please help me find the pros and cons of the following.
I'm a new player of Eve, myself; just about two weeks old. I was quickly explained the concepts of isk, corps and skills. It's paramount for any player to have a number of developed skills in order to do anything efficiently - and this takes time. Loads of time. I myself like to do things in order, and by EvemonÆs calculations, the fastest I can be through even with just my learning skills is the 30th of June - that is if I use implants and skill 24/7. A staggering amount of time! After that I have to skill general power, gunning, navigation etc. to be able to actually play the game on a level where I feel like I'll be able to participate on the same level as older/experienced players - fleet ops and such. Even with imps and learning skills, I won't be done till 2010. That's quite annoying to be honest, when Eve is a game, where powerleveling doesn't exist and the only benefit of playing many hours a day (except social aspects) is more killmails and more isk.
So here comes my actual proposition:
When a new player starts he should be awarded an amount of skillpoints - not attribute points - to disperse as he sees fit. The amount of SP would be calculated from a set date û 1. jan of 2005/2006/anytime. These points wouldn't be associated with attributes and they need not be many - maybe a thousand per day from the set day till the day the player joins. If for instance a thousand SP per day is decided on from the date of 2005 1. Jan. and a player joins 14. Jan. 2009, this player would be awarded 1000*4*365+1000*14 SP. This wouldn't be enough to max out any skilltree, but it would still serve as a boost to the important learning skills for instance. Or any other skilltree of the users choice.
This would also be retroactive for players that aren't entirely new - a player from 1. Jan 2007 would as such be awarded 2*365*1000 SP. (with a set start date of 1. Jan 2005 that is)
This would help new players to faster enjoy the main gameplay of Eve faster and with a better ability to partake.
Notice however that both the 1000 SP/day and the set start date as 1st Jan 2005 are only examples.
Besides, regardless of what amount of SP/day would be used, it is crucial that it's less than what one could get with 24 hours of regular training with average attributes - this is in order to make sure older players will still be more advanced and feel as though they are. This might help reduce their reluctance against this proposition. I hope.
Now the interesting part are the pros and cons of this suggestion, I'll cover what I think are the most obvious ones and hope, that you'll add more a criticize the general idea.
Pros:
1.New players would be able to join the core gameplay faster.
2.The gap between newer and older players would be minimized û not removed, though.
3.The game would be more accessible.
4.A somewhat larger number of staying new players who would have otherwise left because of the learning curve and prospect of using months to skill for even basic efficiency.
Cons:
1.The overall community might become less ôleetö. (one could argue whether this is indeed a con)
2.Older players may feel treated unfairly, if newer players are awarded this ôadvantageö.
3.Might make for a rise in bot alts and gold farmer.
Other than that? Go ahead please
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Sir Substance
Minmatar
MagiTech Alliance Inc.
MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.14 09:05:00 -
[2]
this is an old idea. and it is also hellishly exploitable by people who train and then sell characters.
i wanna make a little sidemoney?
simple, get an account, start a character, put all the free skill points into learning skills, sell the character a little while later.
you just know thats where everyone is gonna dump their extra SP, why not just gie everyone lvl 5 in all the learning skills?
hell, why not get rid of learning skills? |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 09:13:00 -
[3]
Erm..no...eve already has diminishing returns in the sense that a one year old player can be 90% as good as a four year old player. |
Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.01.14 12:55:00 -
[4]
Much better to give newly created characters quadrupled training speed for the first two weeks, and then double training speed for the next six weeks.
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:02:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Sir Substance
you just know thats where everyone is gonna dump their extra SP, why not just gie everyone lvl 5 in all the learning skills?
hell, why not get rid of learning skills?
CCP admitted, quite some time ago, that it was a mistake to have learning skillz in the game.
In theory, it lets players differentiate and specialize their characters further, but in practice everybody trains all of them (learning to 5, basics to level 5, advanced to level 4, with Charisma being the most commonly skipped one attribute skill) which means they do no good, while they do do harm to new players.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Sir Substance
you just know thats where everyone is gonna dump their extra SP, why not just gie everyone lvl 5 in all the learning skills?
hell, why not get rid of learning skills?
CCP admitted, quite some time ago, that it was a mistake to have learning skillz in the game.
In theory, it lets players differentiate and specialize their characters further, but in practice everybody trains all of them (learning to 5, basics to level 5, advanced to level 4, with Charisma being the most commonly skipped one attribute skill) which means they do no good, while they do do harm to new players.
Well if they really regret it, why not remove them and give people higher starting attributes to begin with? |
Grigo
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:11:00 -
[7]
skill training times are ok the way they are now
Originally by: Salpad
CCP admitted, quite some time ago, that it was a mistake to have learning skillz in the game.
they will never remove them for a good reason...all old players that actualy trained them will want the sp's back as they pay'd for learning skills that will not exist if they take them out |
Super spikinator
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:22:00 -
[8]
As far as I can remember the only skill ever taken out of the game was smuggling but that didn't quite matter since it was a character creation only skill and you either had it or you didn't.
Learning skills would be quite another matter though. Some of the better solutions would be to increase the new players skill base into learning skills (most professions give some learning skills, maybe expand on them?) or to change the SOCT in some way such as increase points, decrease time to skills that use (attribute) as a primary attribute by a larger bonus, etc.
I think the best solution by CCP though would be to do the more unpopular move: increase the base attributes then remove SOCT or Basic or remove both. Sometimes you've just got to bite the bullet. They will lose players over this but if they're going to be sore losers about it and would rather sulk then there was no real need for them. |
Re'taka
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:57:00 -
[9]
Buy Game time codes here, sell them to players here, then buy a pilot pre-trained to your liking here, that is as close to instant skills as Im willing to go.
Past that the skill system is fine, and as far as your search to see if your topic has been brought up, try here
If you think skilling takes time now, there didn't used to be learning skills, and when they added them then the advanced skills you had to get the basic learning skills to 5 instead of 4.
Past even that, you started out with with? 500 to 900k sp? I started with 30,000 sp, people from 05 stated with 5k sp, so you noobs have been handed quite a bit already, you can be pvp effective at 3 months or less, and guess what, eve is a MMO that means play with other players, and stop trying to say if I had x skillpoints I could solo ppl, when the truth is, solo pvp is a thing of the past, simply put, get some friends and cover each others weaknesses, you will be fine, and please learn to play the game before you ask for something stupid like this.
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Mazaron
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 19:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Re'taka
people from 05 stated with 5k sp
Didn't we start with 80k or so? It was a long time ago so I can't really remember, but I do remember the good old days of living in 0.0 with 500k SP :P
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Mia Sin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.14 20:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Grigo
they will never remove them for a good reason...all old players that actualy trained them will want the sp's back as they pay'd for learning skills that will not exist if they take them out
I read that before. How do you people come up with something like that? Unless you finished maxing those learning skills shortly before the patch that would remove them, you have already profited from them and thus are not eligible for compensation.
All it would take is for CCP to make an announcement that in one year from now learning skills will be removed. People could then either use their brain or a tool like EVEmon to calculate how many learning skills they want to train before that date (and I'm sure that even for a new character, that would still mean to skill at least a 4-5 learning skillset just for the meantime). |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:02:00 -
[12]
I agree they should take out learning skills (and give us all the training rate of having perfect 5's) but do not agree with the OP's suggestion of giving him two years worth of free SP so he can "skill general power, gunning, navigation etc. to be able to actually play the game on a level where I feel like I'll be able to participate on the same level as older/experienced players".
You can PVP within one day of starting the game. One day. You can ninja salvage and make 6-year-old battleship-flying oldbies cry within 2 or 3 days. Learn to play the game before you come here trying to convince us that you won't be able to do anything until 2010. |
Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mia Sin
Originally by: Grigo
they will never remove them for a good reason...all old players that actualy trained them will want the sp's back as they pay'd for learning skills that will not exist if they take them out
I read that before. How do you people come up with something like that? Unless you finished maxing those learning skills shortly before the patch that would remove them, you have already profited from them and thus are not eligible for compensation.
All it would take is for CCP to make an announcement that in one year from now learning skills will be removed. People could then either use their brain or a tool like EVEmon to calculate how many learning skills they want to train before that date (and I'm sure that even for a new character, that would still mean to skill at least a 4-5 learning skillset just for the meantime).
This is wholly inaccurate.
People who have their learning skills taken away to be given +5 or +10 to all attributes as a replacement for the lack of learning skills will have a right to more SP in the form of skill training that "should have" been training with the full bonus as opposed to skill training that they were already "compensated" for which would be a total mess, they would also deserve reimbursement of the wasted time of those skills trained. |
Camdim
Caldari
The first genesis
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:48:00 -
[14]
They could remove the skills easily.
They can then award the points people have invested into the training skills to each person to be placed where they like. So they have the benifit of the learn skills for the last X time and now can allocate those skill points to other areas.
New players would get a set number of skill points ( same number of skill points the learning skills equal for levels 5 and 4 ) to allocate to a new character to customize the characters skills a bit beyond the basic skills given.
They would have to setup a strick once the points are put down then no changes or allow a easy method to change the skill points later if someone made a mistake. I prefer the former but the later could be done but could be something of pain.
This could all be tied in with the attribute point reallocation they have talked about doing.
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Jmarr Hyrgund
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:12:00 -
[15]
It has to be said that alot of the skills required to play EVE have nothing to do with Skillbooks. If it were just a numbers game it wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting.
Tips for the OP:
1 - learn to really fly your ship, don't simply rely on 'Orbit' and 'Keep at range' to give you that killer shot.
2 - Forget your assumption that the Skills you have trained have anything to do with your success in the game. This game is about people and how you interact with them, not about numbers.
3 - Solo players mission, Social players PvP. Its that simple.
4 - You cannot PvP without backup, because you can be sure that your target has friends and they will get you...eventually.
5 - Learn something from every defeat, Teach something with every victory.
6 - Read Sun Tzu's Art of War.
I really hope you stick at it and don't get disheartened by not being able to fly the big shineys straight out of the tutorials. I've been playing for nearly 5 years now and only just trained my first battleship skill. The beauty of EVE is that the smaller ships have just as much of a role to play as the bigger ones and its not all about who has the bigger guns. Find a good corp who needs frigate pilots (they make great tacklers and interference runners and are better for taking down drones), fly with them and learn the things you won't get from the skillbooks. You'll have a much more rewarding experience. |
Stygian Knight
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2009.01.16 14:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jmarr Hyrgund
It has to be said that alot of the skills required to play EVE have nothing to do with Skillbooks. If it were just a numbers game it wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting.
Tips for the OP:
1 - learn to really fly your ship, don't simply rely on 'Orbit' and 'Keep at range' to give you that killer shot.
2 - Forget your assumption that the Skills you have trained have anything to do with your success in the game. This game is about people and how you interact with them, not about numbers.
3 - Solo players mission, Social players PvP. Its that simple.
4 - You cannot PvP without backup, because you can be sure that your target has friends and they will get you...eventually.
5 - Learn something from every defeat, Teach something with every victory.
6 - Read Sun Tzu's Art of War.
I really hope you stick at it and don't get disheartened by not being able to fly the big shineys straight out of the tutorials. I've been playing for nearly 5 years now and only just trained my first battleship skill. The beauty of EVE is that the smaller ships have just as much of a role to play as the bigger ones and its not all about who has the bigger guns. Find a good corp who needs frigate pilots (they make great tacklers and interference runners and are better for taking down drones), fly with them and learn the things you won't get from the skillbooks. You'll have a much more rewarding experience.
Nicely said 
bump for good post
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.16 15:09:00 -
[17]
so another noob with too ambitious goals without the paitence to work for them ...
listen, these kind of proposals show up quite regularly. there's nothing new in what you suggested. live with the current system and set some intermediate goals so you can enjoy the game while you are training for the final goal you have ...
you will never be satisfied with the skills you have ... I can tell you from experience ...
btw if you can manage to meet the skill goal by June, be happy. you have something to hold you in this game and work for it ...
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