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Something to make ganking a little more spicey

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tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 14:40:00 - [1] - Quote Hi long story short I've recently begun my own little jihad purge of highsec ganking Hulks and Haulers and I've come to realize this is pretty much Easy Mode and needs a bit of a change. That got me and my friend into a discussion about how exactly this could be changed. After awhile we figured out two things 1) Beef Hulks a little. That a 10m ISK Catalyst can kill a 300m T2 cruiser-sized Exhumer is a bit daft, let's be realistic. I'd suggest requiring something with a bit more punch, say a fully T2 gank fitted Thorax doing ~850 DPS (or a gankfit BC from any other race) to kill an untanked Hulk. I'd still happily throw away a 20-30m ISK cruiser or even a ~60m ISK BC to kill them and that's still easily 5-10 times its own worth, but far better than the current 50x ratio Catalysts get 2) At Fanfest there was discussion about overhauling criminal flagging system, and briefly, a blurb about making it so that anyone who steals from a can/wreck will become universally flagged as "Suspect" and attackable by anyone, not just their victim. I think this would add a little more risk to the suicide ganking of highsec haulers a little, as when you have your alt scoop that wreck he'd immediately become fair game to everyone else in the system. This allows those silly white knight vigilante-wannabes to spend hours camping popular gankcamp gates in their "counter-gank" Tornados ganking gankers' gankloot-scooping haulers... or more likely, allows competing gankers to kill the others' hauler if they go for a kill. The effectiveness of this last instance became obvious to me last night as I found myself sharing a gate with another ganker, both of us having hauler alts on grid. I'm pretty sure we both knew at the time that if either of us did gank something, the other could easily gank the other's hauler alt and take the spoils for himself. If our alts would've been flagged as suspect by the act this would make it pretty much a given that we would've taken out each others' haulers on the spot So yeah, do this.
stoicfaux 951	Posted - 2012.04.17 14:47:00 - [2] - Quote You want the crimewatch thread. You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 14:56:00 - [3] - Quote This thread is to specifically discuss the effects of Crimewatch on highsec suicide ganking not a discussion on Crimewatch itself.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6138	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:03:00 - [4] - Quote tmasher wrote: 1) Beef Hulks a little. That a 10m ISK Catalyst can kill a 300m T2 cruiser-sized Exhumer is a bit daft, let's be realistic. As luck would have it, a 10M Catalyst can't kill a 300M T2 cruiser-sized Exhumer. Unless the Exhumer has been a bit daft and not fitted a tank. As for realism, it's not so strange that a destroyer can kill a huge resource extraction vehicle. Quote: 2) At Fanfest there was discussion about overhauling criminal flagging system, and briefly, a blurb about making it so that anyone who steals from a can/wreck will become universally flagged as "Suspect" and attackable by anyone, not just their victim. I think this would add a little more risk to the suicide ganking of highsec haulers a little, as when you have your alt scoop that wreck he'd immediately become fair game to everyone else in the system. It doesn't really change anything, since the alt will just dock-up. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
THE L0CK Denying You Access 231	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:05:00 - [5] - Quote When I want to give spicy I type to my victim in a Latin accent. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Testerxnot Sheepherder DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew 108	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:05:00 - [6] - Quote I did not except tippia to post here... Given up on the "cost is not a factor in balance hurr durr" argument, have ya?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6138	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:09:00 - [7] - Quote Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote: Given up on the "cost is not a factor in balance hurr durr" argument, have ya? Nope. Still using it, as you can see, largely because it's still as true as ever. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Benny Ohu The Lazy Dragoons True Apathy 50	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:14:00 - [8] - Quote Or the ganker will blue the wreck for his alt to pick up? Really this looks like a 'buff Hulks' thread in disguise
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 1524	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:20:00 - [9] - Quote Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote: I did not except tippia to post here... Given up on the "cost is not a factor in balance hurr durr" argument, have ya? Why would anyone "give up" on a proven design principal in EVE? People that don't understand the concept are the reason we have far too many Super Caps in game currently, and why CCP no longer uses cost as a balancing mechanism. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point. Also, I can kill you with my brain.
Five Thirty School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:23:00 - [10] - Quote The way suicide ganking is right now is going to get nerfed. This is a fact. If more suicide gankers like the OP would suggest nerfs that they believe would bring the cost / benefit ratio back in line, maybe CCP would implement those ideas instead of whatever the developers decide to do. Maybe make some concessions of their own instead of just crying anytime a supposed nerf is suggested or released.
MeestaPenni Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent 209	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:28:00 - [11] - Quote Duuun dun duuun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6142	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:29:00 - [12] - Quote Five Thirty wrote: The way suicide ganking is right now is going to get nerfed. This is a fact. Really? What do you base this ~~fact~~ assumption on? Here's a solution to put the GÇ£cost / benefit ratio back in lineGÇ¥: fit a tank. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Lanasak School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 77	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:33:00 - [13] - Quote expensive ships die to cheap ones all the time deal with it
tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:48:00 - [14] - Quote First off let me clarify that my position on this issue isn't complete altruistic and in fact is quite self-serving. There are far too many highsec gankers right now, and as I am one myself, this overabundance of competition is bad for my business model. Most of the decent gates are occupied at all hours of the day. The abundance of Hulk gankers is causing more Hulk pilots to either fit ridiculous tanks or fly Covetors. Haulers will or already are autopiloting less, using the tanked transports or freighters. I think ganking a Hulk or a hauler with lots of ** in it (and getting that **) should be something of an accomplishment, but at this point I just feel like a drop in the ocean for all my efforts.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6143	Posted - 2012.04.17 15:58:00 - [15] - Quote tmasher wrote: There are far too many highsec gankers right now, and as I am one myself, this overabundance of competition is bad for my business model. [GÇª] at this point I just feel like a drop in the ocean for all my efforts. Self-balancing emergent gameplay. Working exactly as intended. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:06:00 - [16] - Quote Tippia wrote: tmasher wrote: There are far too many highsec gankers right now, and as I am one myself, this overabundance of competition is bad for my business model. [GÇª] at this point I just feel like a drop in the ocean for all my efforts. Self-balancing emergent gameplay. Working exactly as intended. I'm sorry, for a moment there I thought you suggested that Hulks et al being so easy to gank is a self-balancing feature.
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 569	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:44:00 - [17] - Quote Tippia wrote: Self emergent gameplay... so Tippia says the player is responsible for what happens to them(Fit tank, hulk don't go boom). Then CCP can go back and un-nerf Titans and Super Carriers , since they must be fine being all powerful and the players bitching how Titan's track so well means that the ones bitching should shut up and just fly a super cap of their own. See, logically if the player gets out of their crappy battleship blob ship and get into a cap ship of their own then Titans with a full rack of tracking enhancers are less of a problem. In short, fly a cap ship = to fitting tank mods on a hulk...player prevents their own loss by being pro-active and CCP don't need to step in. Yup, lets get back those Titan fleets then.
Whitehound 118	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:48:00 - [18] - Quote reads subject sees OP's avatar ... It needs no more spice than that ugly face!!!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6146	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:57:00 - [19] - Quote tmasher wrote: I'm sorry, for a moment there I thought you suggested that Hulks et al being so easy to gank is a self-balancing feature. No need to apologise. The availability and value of prey and the amount of competing predators is self-balancing. Aqriue wrote: lol Tippia bringing RL into EVE? No. The OP did. I just recalibrated that RL comparison. As for your counter, it doesn't seem to actually counter the fact that a destroyer cannot kill a Hulk unless the Hulk pilot has been a bit daft. I suppose this is largely because it isGÇª you knowGÇª a fact, and thus quite hard to argue against. Quote: Then CCP can go back and un-nerf Titans and Super Carriers , since they must be fine being all powerful and the players bitching how Titan's track so well then that means the ones bitching should shut up and just fly a super cap of their own. Non sequitur, since what you're describing is why cost isn't a balancing factor, whereas what I'm pointing out is the ecology of professions. The two have nothing to do with each other (aside from supercaps showing that it's good design for Hulks being weak to cheaper ships). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Sentinel Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:01:00 - [20] - Quote tmasher wrote: I'm sorry, for a moment there I thought you suggested that Hulks et al being so easy to gank is a self-balancing feature. Hulks aren't 'So easy' to gank, unless the person using it doesn't know how to fit it. A Hulk can easily tank a Destroyer if it properly.. With implants and fleet bonuses it can even tank a Tornado in most of highsec.. Most people whining about losing their Hulks haven't fit a tank, haven't trained the skills to support their ship, they just mine with it.. Sorry, no sympathy. EVE is a PVP game, if your ship isn't taking that into account it's no ones fault but your own.
tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:30:00 - [21] - Quote Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks. Let me remind you that there is no "learning curve" for Hulk pilots like there is for almost every other aspect of this game -- PVErs spend their first few months climbing from doing L1 missions in frigates to L4 missions in battleships and learn their way up, losing ships occasionally, usually cheap ones, and adapting along the way; likewise PVPers usually start out in frigates, end up losing dozens but for 500k a piece who gives a **. Hulks on the other hand will overwhelmingly have not a single shred of experience in dealing with protecting their ships from gankers (because who the ** ganks Retrievers and Covetors, and even if people did, there's literally no way to actually tank them anyway) and if held to the same standard, which you seem to support, should expect to lose billions of ISK on Hulks before they too finally "get it" and learn to adapt accordingly.
Karl Hobb Imperial Margarine 102	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:41:00 - [22] - Quote tmasher wrote: Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks. Those Hulk pilots could, you know, ask how to protect against ganks. They generally just don't like the answer/receive **** advice. Hulk pilots could also play the game, but I suppose that would be too much of a bother. "Fun fact: carebears are not necessary for the game to function." --áTippia
Whitehound 120	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:43:00 - [23] - Quote tmasher wrote: Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks. Let me remind you that there is no "learning curve" for Hulk pilots like there is for almost every other aspect of this game -- PVErs spend their first few months climbing from doing L1 missions in frigates to L4 missions in battleships and learn their way up, losing ships occasionally, usually cheap ones, and adapting along the way; likewise PVPers usually start out in frigates, end up losing dozens but for 500k a piece who gives a **. Hulks on the other hand will overwhelmingly have not a single shred of experience in dealing with protecting their ships from gankers (because who the ** ganks Retrievers and Covetors, and even if people did, there's literally no way to actually tank them anyway) and if held to the same standard, which you seem to support, should expect to lose billions of ISK on Hulks before they too finally "get it" and learn to adapt accordingly. I can agree with this. People now need to learn that we can only fix ourselves and maybe other players, but the ships when unbalanced can only be fixed by CCP. I think there is a weakness in all mining ships and it is unnecessary (35PG for a 300m ISK hull is a joke), but it is not the gankers problem to care for it, nor should the miners complain about getting ganked. Now I would like to talk about your face.
Killer Gandry V I R I I Ineluctable. 279	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:46:00 - [24] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Now I would like to talk about your face. Shhh, that's the roadmap incase the TomTom fails.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts 259	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:48:00 - [25] - Quote tmasher wrote: Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks. If they can't figure it out the first time they see or hear of a Hulk getting ganked, then they deserve to get ganked. If they've managed to get into a Hulk without becoming aware of suicide-ganking, then clearly we need more suicide ganking.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6150	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:53:00 - [26] - Quote tmasher wrote: Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks. No. What gave you that impression? They should learn to play the game, just like everyone else, that is all. Since cost and RL parallels are so popular in these circles, how about this one: if you're going to buy a -ú5 million Rolls, do you just plan to go to your local drive-through automatic car wash the way you do with the +ákoda you've been driving so far, or do you research the matter to find out whether you should take some extra precautions to protect the paint job? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.04.17 18:03:00 - [27] - Quote Quote: If they can't figure it out the first time they see or hear of a Hulk getting ganked, then they deserve to get ganked. Where are they supposed to hear or see it? Not everyone who plays this game is a forum-splerging neckbeard. Quote: Those Hulk pilots could, you know, ask how to protect against ganks. How exactly can they ask about something most of them probably don't even realize can happen the first time they get in a Hulk? Again -- in almost every other conceivable course of activity in this game there is a fairly reasonable learning curve that introduces players into a new activity in a way that promotes learning and adapting by exposing them to an understandable and intuitive difficulty curve. Brand-new Hulk pilots get nothing of the sort. The only thing they have to contend with as they work their way up are belt rats, can flippers and finding empty belts. Last I checked there is no warning popup message when they get into their very first Hulk informing them that they stand a good chance of meeting a fiery end at the hands of a destroyer. So short of miraculous foresight and spending the 6 months prior to even starting the game reading every guide, tutorial and wiki entry, how do you expect them to learn this other than losing a few hundred million ISK in Hulks?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts 259	Posted - 2012.04.17 18:06:00 - [28] - Quote tmasher wrote: Quote: If they can't figure it out the first time they see or hear of a Hulk getting ganked, then they deserve to get ganked. Where are they supposed to hear or see it? Not everyone who plays this game is a forum-splerging neckbeard. I'd expect even a miner to have some concept of things like resists, HP and How Concord Works. They don't need to read these threads, they just need a modicum of common sense. But whining and claiming to be a victim is easier, I suppose.
tmasher Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.04.17 18:06:00 - [29] - Quote Tippia wrote: They should learn to play the game, just like everyone else As I've said every else has a reasonable learning curve allowing them to adapt to increasing difficulty without risk of serious financial loss. So I completely agree with you, they should learn just like everyone else. Quote: Since cost and RL parallels are so popular in these circles From what I can tell the only person RL parallels are popular with is you.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6150	Posted - 2012.04.17 18:10:00 - [30] - Quote tmasher wrote: Where are they supposed to hear or see it? Not everyone who plays this game is a forum-splerging neckbeard. In local. On any EVE-related website. In their corp chat. In their belt. On the site where they found out about the Hulk fit they're using. Quote: How exactly can they ask about something most of them probably don't even realize can happen the first time they get in a Hulk? They would have to pay spectacularly little attention in order to not learn, in the months it takes to get into a Hulk, that ganking is a reality in EVE. The game itself even tells them that it can happen. This in addition to the various sources mentioned above. Learning about this was very very easy four years ago. The amount of information and the ease of access to it has not diminished since then. Quote: As I've said every else has a reasonable learning curve allowing them to adapt to increasing difficulty without risk of serious financial loss. GÇªas do miners. Claiming anything else is to pain them all as a bunch of blind and braindead sheep, and that wouldn't be very nice, now would it? Why do you give them so little credit? Quote: From what I can tell the only person RL parallels are popular with is you. You haven't been paying attention to these topics have you? You started this thread with an argument from realism, and it keeps coming up GÇö alongside the cost argument, which you also used GÇö and given how popular it is with people who refuse to tank their hulks, wouldn't you say that speaking their language is a good idea? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.

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