1) Beef Hulks a little. That a 10m ISK Catalyst can kill a 300m T2 cruiser-sized Exhumer is a bit daft, let's be realistic.

2) At Fanfest there was discussion about overhauling criminal flagging system, and briefly, a blurb about making it so that anyone who steals from a can/wreck will become universally flagged as "Suspect" and attackable by anyone, not just their victim. I think this would add a little more risk to the suicide ganking of highsec haulers a little, as when you have your alt scoop that wreck he'd immediately become fair game to everyone else in the system.

Given up on the "cost is not a factor in balance hurr durr" argument, have ya?

I did not except tippia to post here...

Given up on the "cost is not a factor in balance hurr durr" argument, have ya?

The way suicide ganking is right now is going to get nerfed. This is a fact.

There are far too many highsec gankers right now, and as I am one myself, this overabundance of competition is bad for my business model. [GǪ] at this point I just feel like a drop in the ocean for all my efforts.

Self-balancing emergent gameplay. Working exactly as intended.

Self emergent gameplay...

I'm sorry, for a moment there I thought you suggested that Hulks et al being so easy to gank is a self-balancing feature.

lol Tippia bringing RL into EVE?

Then CCP can go back and un-nerf Titans and Super Carriers , since they must be fine being all powerful and the players bitching how Titan's track so well then that means the ones bitching should shut up and just fly a super cap of their own.

I'm sorry, for a moment there I thought you suggested that Hulks et al being so easy to gank is a self-balancing feature.

Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks.

Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks. Let me remind you that there is no "learning curve" for Hulk pilots like there is for almost every other aspect of this game -- PVErs spend their first few months climbing from doing L1 missions in frigates to L4 missions in battleships and learn their way up, losing ships occasionally, usually cheap ones, and adapting along the way; likewise PVPers usually start out in frigates, end up losing dozens but for 500k a piece who gives a ****. Hulks on the other hand will overwhelmingly have not a single shred of experience in dealing with protecting their ships from gankers (because who the **** ganks Retrievers and Covetors, and even if people did, there's literally no way to actually tank them anyway) and if held to the same standard, which you seem to support, should expect to lose billions of ISK on Hulks before they too finally "get it" and learn to adapt accordingly.

Now I would like to talk about your face.

Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks.

Tippia, you and many others here seem to be under the impression that Hulk pilots should automatically "know" how to protect themselves from ganks.

If they can't figure it out the first time they see or hear of a Hulk getting ganked, then they deserve to get ganked.

Those Hulk pilots could, you know, ask how to protect against ganks.

Where are they supposed to hear or see it? Not everyone who plays this game is a forum-splerging neckbeard.

They should learn to play the game, just like everyone else

Since cost and RL parallels are so popular in these circles

Where are they supposed to hear or see it? Not everyone who plays this game is a forum-splerging neckbeard.

How exactly can they ask about something most of them probably don't even realize can happen the first time they get in a Hulk?

As I've said every else has a reasonable learning curve allowing them to adapt to increasing difficulty without risk of serious financial loss.

From what I can tell the only person RL parallels are popular with is you.

I'm a forum-splerging neckbeard.

How exactly can they ask about something most of them probably don't even realize can happen the first time they get in a Hulk?

So short of miraculous foresight and spending the 6 months prior

GǪas do miners. Claiming anything else is to paint them all as a bunch of blind and braindead sheep

You haven't been paying attention to these topics have you?

You started this thread with an argument from realism

and it keeps coming up

alongside the cost argument, which you also used

[Please then, explain to me what sorts of personal experiences miners go through during the first three months of the game that will teach them how to fit Hulks to not be ganked?

Nope.

Lol wat

Your arguments though are incredibly simplistic and quite obviously biased and you've yet to make a single credible argument or counter any I've made other than "hurp blurp let me tell u about realism m8" and some unfathomable notion that miners should be smarter than literally everyone else that plays this game and that it's their own fault if they aren't.

except t2 barges are supposed to be able to handle the harshness of nullsec or w/e yet a cheap ship can almost inta pop them.

As luck would have it, a 10M Catalyst can't kill a 300M T2 cruiser-sized Exhumer. Unless the Exhumer has been a bit daft and not fitted a tank. As for realism, it's not so strange that a destroyer can kill a huge resource extraction vehicle.

more stuff

except t2 barges are supposed to be able to handle the harshness of nullsec or w/e yet a cheap ship can almost inta pop them.

Really? -they can't handle a single destroyer or frigate without Concord help but you "assume" they're "supposed" to be "THA" mining ship in null?

What about bringing a cap stable Logi to the mining op? Turn the logi on and let it perma boost the hulks? Anyone ever tried that?

yk

Yes, it doesn't prevent alpha strikes, but will generally save vs. a single smaller ship.

GÇ£That a 10m ISK Catalyst can kill a 300m T2 cruiser-sized Exhumer is a bit daft, let's be realistic.GÇ¥ Recognise that?

My argument is that they are as smart as everyone else

Counter #1: a Hulk can already protect themselves against a Catalyst.

Counter #3: miners are not idiots, no matter how much you'd prefer that they were.

Counter #4: miners have access to the same resources as everyone else, and can therefore learn about ganks the same as everyone else.

Wow, you read that and thought I was talking about gameplay realism?

Well look at that, again I agree and made no argument to the contrary.

Please point me towards the New Player Experience Tutorial that teaches players how to defend against suicide ganking.

1) Lack of learning or difficulty curve for miners

2) Unless you can show me a study that proves otherwise, I stand by my statement that the overwhelming majority of new players prefer learning the game in the game and not by scrolling through hundreds of wiki pages, guides, tutorials and these scum-trodden forums.

Put in other terms: it forces a ganker to upgrade to (multiple) tier-3 BCs or BSes rather than relying on a handful of frigates or destroyers. You can still do it with the same manpower, but the cost of the operation increases quite sharply.

I read that and thought you were making an argument about relationships between ship classes being daft and not realistic, because that's pretty much what you said.

GǪaside from the first point you made in the OP. You know, the part where you were arguing that they should make the Hulk beefier so a Catalyst no longer can kill it and it instead requires an unrealistic cruiser or a BC to kill one.

The part where they say that space isn't safe and the part that explains to you what happens when your ship blows up.

The learning can be found in the same place as everyone else finds it.

Hi sec mining is such a low profit enterprise to begin with. What are the estimates? Something like 6mil per hour tops?

The point I made was that a Cata should not be able to suicide gank a naked Hulk just like it shouldn't be able to suicide gank a comparable T2 cruiser (or t3!) Imagine what kind of world we would live in if any other untanked T2 could be easily wiped out by a Destroyer, I'd camp Jita undock and wipe out Zealots all day long.

Right now, it's somewhere in the 20M region, last I saw any numbers (haven't done them myself, so, pinch of salt and all that). That puts it on equal footing with lower-end L4 missions that are done at the same skill level.