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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.01.16 13:00:00 -
[1]
A common complaint about Eve Online is how long it takes to reach the same bar as other players. One of the chief barriers of entry and causes of frustration is the amount of time it takes to train the learning skills. While they are an investment in the future, they also stop new players from actually training stuff they want to use. A lot of people probably do not end up playing the game because of this particularly grueling barrier to entry.
Conversely, those of us who are here stuck with it and did the grind; many of us (if not most) feel that everyone should be subject to the same investments in time.
A good potential solution is to make the attribute enhancing (learning) skills train passively, gaining levels at the same rate as players currently do when training them manually. At the same time, players would be able to train normal, game play related skills.
There would be some new database processing required to adjust skill times according to how attributes change over time for this to work.
Passive attribute gains appear to be a fair compromise for this long standing dilemma. In switching to passive gains, Learning Books can remain as an ISK sink, and new players will continue to realize that Eve Online is a game that rewards patience and perseverance while being able to get into the fancier toys that we all covet a little bit faster than they can now.
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2009.01.16 14:32:00 -
[2]
or.. lets freeze everyones attribute enhancers from learning skills where they're at now.. and then remove the skills so no one can train them if they dont already have them.. that way no one will complain about (not) having to train learning skills since they arent a requirement in the first place. |
soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Horsemen of Apocalypse
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Posted - 2009.01.16 14:36:00 -
[3]
get over it, EVE is a long term game, those other players have been loyal customers of CCP for alot longer than you, thus they get an edge
and (even though i didnt read your post) 5 or 6 noobs in destroyers will ALWAYS beat a 2 or 3 year old in a BS |
Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.01.16 15:07:00 -
[4]
The learning skills are the very basic skills to have in EVE. Questioning them means questioning the whole skill system EVE chars are built of.
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Owin Forsyth
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Posted - 2009.01.16 15:28:00 -
[5]
Learning skills are not a barrier to entry. It takes very little time to train the primary's to level 3 and that's all one would need in the very beginning. It takes a little longer to train the primary's to 4 and the secondary's to 3 and quite a bit longer to train the primary's to 5 and secondary's to 4.
Training is up to you. You decide what to train and when. You can train all of the learning skills to 5 if you want, or you can train the primary's to 2 or 3 and train other skills to 2 or 3 and then go back to training learning skills. You can train short skills while you are playing and long skills when you are not or you can train skills in any order you want and set your alarm to wake you up at 3 am so you can switch. It's all up to you. And this is the uniqueness of this game, it's all up to you.
But you can never 'catch up' to players who have been playing daily for years in the areas of skill points or in-game experience. You can specialize in areas that interest you and train those skills first so you can be a little more competitive, but you don't have to nor is it necessary to do so to have fun in the game.
Something to consider for all of the newer players who think the game is unfair to them because of the skill points system is that people quit. It happens in every game. And people who quit have various reasons why. Most people who quit games are usually new to a game, but a few people who quit have been playing for years and years. So, just keep on playing and pretty soon you'll have lots of skill points too.
Oh, and I have only been playing this game for little more than half of a year. Yes, I do think what it would be like to have started this game when I started that 'other' game and imagine how many skill points I would have now. But I quickly forget about that when I hear 'skill training complete' and determine my next skill to train.
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Nephilius
Caldari Grey Legionaires
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Posted - 2009.01.16 19:24:00 -
[6]
Train them or don't train them. There is nothing wrong with the system as is, despite what many may think. I think it has more to do with instant gratification than any inconvenience in training the skills. We make the conscious choice to train our skills, and if you want to devote some time to training Learning, please don't turn around and complain to CCP about that choice, ok? Don't like them? Don't train them. |
Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.01.16 20:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 get over it, EVE is a long term game, those other players have been loyal customers of CCP for alot longer than you, thus they get an edge
and (even though i didnt read your post) 5 or 6 noobs in destroyers will ALWAYS beat a 2 or 3 year old in a BS
There's a certain irony in flaming a post in regards to the time spent on learning skills when one can't even be bothered to take the time to read the original post.
Secondly, your questioning of my credentials would be more effective if you decided to check who I was in game; I certainly don't need the advantage this change would afford me, neither would I benefit from it.
Does anyone have an argument against changing learning skills from this that is not "It is a barrier to entry and barriers to entry are worth having" or "Everyone does them, you should too?"
These Axioms are holding the game back. Even if people don't stick with the game for the long haul, more people might actually start an account for a month or two after the trial period if they don't have to spend a month or two getting learning skills up like everybody else.
People say you don't have to train them, but lets face it. "Train your learning skills" is often the first piece of advice any Veteran player will give to a person starting out. It is worth considering that their might be something wrong when there is so much consistency, even though getting your learning skills means halting your actual character advancement in order to be able to get your skill point counter up as fast as everybody else once its done.
The rest of the skill system still stands as a time barrier to entry, while buying the books stands as an ISK sink. Lets try arguing the points again people, and this time, can you please actually take the time to read the original post?
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.16 23:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 16/01/2009 23:59:48 Learning skills are one of the mistakes ccp made, not as grave as carriers and supercaps, but still.
I guess it made a lot of sense back then, but today, it's just horrible. It's basically a mandatory skillset everybody does in his eve life if he doesn't want to be horribly gimped for skill training, yet they affect absolutely nothing else. No bonuses, just nearly one entire month wasted for stuff to gain sp faster.
Now, i dunno really if a slowly accelerating skillcurve really helps, though.
What i think would work is something like this:
All learnings vanish from the game completely. All sp put in learnings are transferred into learning boosters for people to use, prototypes are already ingame anyways and could be reused.
Now that we got learnings out, which i guess will be some pretty nasty database voodoo (but we do have some crafty database devs anyways *wink* *wink*), we can get to the real meat.
Attribute choices should still have an impact, but also there should be a way to relocate them slowly. So some sort of attribute change thing mechanic would have to be included, which lets you slowly shift focus of your character. This means: a) caldari achura wouldn't be the "best" (lol), maybe we get some diversity b) people who didn't balance their attributes correctly, aren't screwed c) we got learnings out of the picture
Now just make a flat out increae in attributes all over the place to a reasonable amount, so learning speed is roughly the same again.
Voila ----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Yolo
Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb
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Posted - 2009.01.17 02:14:00 -
[9]
Delete all learning skills except the basic "Learning" one. increase all char attributes by 10 points.
And ofc give out some sort of balancing for those that had the skills trained before.
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.01.17 03:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Owin Forsyth Learning skills are not a barrier to entry. It takes very little time to train the primary's to level 3 and that's all one would need in the very beginning.that when I hear 'skill training complete' and determine my next skill to train
Simply not true. There is no amount of learning skills a player "needs", and obviously they are not necessary for anyone to train. However it's obvious that any player will receive the highest return on his invested training time if he has all learning skills maxed, granted he subscribes long enough for the training time to balance out against the gain in training speed (12-24+ months for all learning skills to level 5, depending on implants, base attributes and what sorts of skills are trained).
So of course anyone who can do a cost-benefit analysis and has a basic understanding of character progression can see that learning skills are a "must have", and as such they may spend a month or more training them at the very beginning of their character lives. It's only then that they learn the true crappiness of spending a month not getting any new shiney toys, especially for characters at beginning skill points (800,000) who really aren't that capable in any type of gameplay.
Let's think back to when characters started with 30,000 skillpoints. They were practically useless for an entire month! Maybe viable during the first year or two of Eve, but it in the capital age of RMR it became obvious that new players were having trouble competing. That's why they ramped up entry skillpoints 25 times over, with a lot of emphasis on learning skills.
Personally I think learning skills have survived under the "necessary evil" mode of thinking for too long. It was a large step in the right direction to add more skillpoints on character creation with many in learning skills, but it's not enough. I think entry skillpoints should again be increased (2m sound good to anyone else?) with a sizable portion going to learning skills to ease new players into the fold, while also helping us old schoolers who have 2, 3, or 24 alts to regain out sanity.
"But what about the rest of us who suffered through those darned learning skills up hill both ways in the snow?!? HARUMPH!"
Meh. You did it and so did I (five times). In fact, on the day that CCP imbursed all players with less than 800,000 sp up to that level, I literally had about 802,000 sp. I felt screwed then, but that same change has helped thousands of players enormously. In retrospect, though I consider myself a hardcore Eve player today, while I was training those learning skills I thought about unsubbing and forgetting Eve altogether. I do think that the effort to ease the entry barrier into is a noble one. I say let's ramp up entry learning skills again. It's overdue.
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xVx dreadnaught
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Posted - 2009.01.17 06:01:00 -
[11]
Someone who spends there first whole month (or 14 day trial) doing learning skills need slapped. They should learn to fly something useful first, like a small cruiser that they can use for missions. Then grind there learning skills as they do mission runs and actually play the game. this way they are still being pr-active while the learning skils are working. rather than sitting in a frigate thinking "this is so boring" but getting there learning up. Because those players tend not to continue there subscription...
I do however have an idea that could help... CCP could change it so that the first few months of active play increases your attributes, but along the attribute line that you have been learning. So if youve been learning ship skills your perception and willpower get increased... this way it wouldalso meld your character for you in that the skills your learning increase the attributes that you think you will need for the future. it could be as simple as you get +1 attribute when you learn 100k SP in a skill set, then +1 at 500K and so on. for the first few months |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.01.17 08:53:00 -
[12]
i'll leave the learning skills argument to the rest of you as you seem to be arguing it pretty well and will actually talk about the idea in the op (it's kinda hidden, maybe a tl;dr or mentioning your idea in the title might help).
The only real way for this to be done fairly would be for it to include a sp compensation for those who trained there learning skills. Reason being that learning skills take months (or adv learning to lvl 5) years, if a character invested time in training his learning skills within that payoff time before the passive training was bought out he would be worse off for training his learning skills, his patience and investment caused him to be worth off as a direct action of ccp. It would only effect a small amount of ppl but doing that to those ppl is pretty unfair. |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.17 11:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Typhado3 maybe a tl;dr or mentioning your idea in the title might help
If someone is too dumb to read and understand entire posts on this forum, he shouldn't even be here in the first place to be honest.
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Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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JoeT
Amarr Short Attention Span
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Posted - 2009.01.17 11:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 get over it, EVE is a long term game, those other players have been loyal customers of CCP for alot longer than you, thus they get an edge
and (even though i didnt read your post) 5 or 6 noobs in destroyers will ALWAYS beat a 2 or 3 year old in a BS
I disagree with that 5 or 6 noobs will always win. I have more then one account 5 or 6 noobs in their dessies and manged to kill them all. mm tasty pods.
As for the learning, there is no reason to train or not to train, just the benefits are really good, but i dont think anyone should 1st grind the learnings ksill tp perfect. Get a couple levels. Train some skills for stuff you want. Enuff to keep you happy for a while and then redo the training on learning. - We are anonymous. We Are legion. |
Shea Klant
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Posted - 2009.01.17 12:04:00 -
[15]
Don't be a fool stay in school. Learning is for the cool kids.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.17 23:02:00 -
[16]
Advanced learning skills are fine. Basic learning skills are where the problems are. Advanced learning skills are expensive to purchase, have 3 ranks, and take a considerable time to receive their payoff. Between the two evils, I'd say they are the lesser of the problem.
What I would suggest is that all characters have +4 base attributes, and removing basic learning skills from the game. Pilots can purchase the advanced learning skills as usual, but they don't require the basic learning skills as a prerequisite. This would be a great boon to starting characters, and not require their 14 day trial to be dedicated to bringing their attributes to a reasonable level.
An alternative is to bring all basic learning skills to IV at character creation, and retroactively set all characters' basic learning skills to IV, if less than IV. This would allow basic learning skills to V, and not alienate those who have trained basic skills to V. |
Bunyip
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Posted - 2009.01.18 00:16:00 -
[17]
Hey guys,
IŠve been talking to the devs here in Iceland, and theyŠve got some interesting news coming up in a dev blog. I canŠt go into any details until they publicly release the information, but let me just say that your cries have not fallen on deaf ears.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.01.18 01:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bunyip Hey guys,
IŠve been talking to the devs here in Iceland, and theyŠve got some interesting news coming up in a dev blog. I canŠt go into any details until they publicly release the information, but let me just say that your cries have not fallen on deaf ears.
--- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.01.18 01:51:00 -
[19]
As stated by a few other posters already...it's just not viable to take them out now. There is no truly balanced way of getting rid of them/giving all level 5 to all.
There's no real "fair" way to deal with this.
I fear that this will not be dealt with.
Karrade-Confirming all pirate babies come from me Surfin's PlunderBunny-I always knew you were a woman Karrade-I am a man of many talents.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.01.18 02:08:00 -
[20]
It would be prefectly balanced to press "Select All" and "Delete". Then no one would have Learning Skills, and everyone would be as equal as they were before.
It never made sense for skills to have a set training rate... unless you improved A, B, or C... and then the time was variable. Of course everyone is going to train whatever it takes to make it better. And saying crap like "If you don't like them, don't train them" is just BS. Players don't want Variety, they want THE BEST. So you're never going to find someone who chose to forgo the skills. "Gee... I think I'll just let my training take longer for the next few years while I play."
Either CCP should delete them entirely, and make skills take days on end. Or they should grant everyone Lvl V equivalent and training will still take days.
But some 5 year veteran whining about "I wasted all that time and training"... never makes a difference when it's a Care Bear whining about time spent.
You've been playing for 5 years... you'll deal with this just like you've dealt with every other patch/modification/nerf CCP has done to date. --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.01.18 02:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon It would be prefectly balanced to press "Select All" and "Delete". Then no one would have Learning Skills, and everyone would be as equal as they were before.
And what of the months worth of time vets have put into training something they should have originally had/not had in the first place?
Karrade-Confirming all pirate babies come from me Surfin's PlunderBunny-I always knew you were a woman Karrade-I am a man of many talents.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.01.18 02:17:00 -
[22]
... Times Change? --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.01.18 02:27:00 -
[23]
Seriously though...
They just recently nerfed Speed, and Missiles. So what about the people who spent months training Inty or SB... or anything Caldari.
They nerfed Nos once upon a time, rendering the Pilgrim and a lot of other ships obsolete.
"Progress" and "Change" doesn't always sit well with every single man, woman, and child. But it does what it does, to the whole society.
So... some vets sunk a lot of time and effort into Learning Skills. And they are more than welcome to get irate about the change. In fact, they may well quit playing just because they feel so violently opposed to the decision. But how is that any different than a rookie coming onto these forums and asking a question about "leveling" or "PvE content". Every single Pirate out there jumps straight up and yells "Eve is hard core! It's about war, and blood, and pain! And if you don't like it, then you can just get out!"
So... either play the game of today, instead of the game you remember from "back in the day"... or file your complaint as you head for the door, and can I has your stuff? --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2009.01.18 11:03:00 -
[24]
im nearly 3 years old in eve.. and i agree as well learning skills are probably the biggest factor in new people getting ****ed off with Eve..
although we all went through it already. i Personally!, would not care if they just bumped our stats to the max learning skills and removed them period. hell i dont even care if you reimburse my time spent training (although others would im sure) i would just be happy having more newbs around to kill :P |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.01.18 15:58:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 18/01/2009 16:04:58
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Bunyip Hey guys,
IŠve been talking to the devs here in Iceland, and theyŠve got some interesting news coming up in a dev blog. I canŠt go into any details until they publicly release the information, but let me just say that your cries have not fallen on deaf ears.
-edit- @Andreya: I disagree. Learning skills are probably the biggest factor in new people old players getting ****ed off with Eve.. (when they want to train a second/third/fourth/etc..) char. Learning skills really only ever become a problem for new players when old players make it a problem. Otherwise I can't remember any new player who primarily complained about leraning skills. Some complain about things taking quite some time in EVE, in general. That's game design and not specificly Learning Skills related. You won't change that by changing Learning Skills. Some complain about the harsh PvP and people screwing them over. Not a Learning Skills issue either. Some complain about the lack of PvE content. Well..
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Aiko Intaki
Lodizal Capsuleers Lodizal Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.01.18 17:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Karrade Krise As stated by a few other posters already...it's just not viable to take them out now. There is no truly balanced way of getting rid of them/giving all level 5 to all.
There's no real "fair" way to deal with this.
I fear that this will not be dealt with.
I can think of one...
1. Remove the ability to directly train them.
2. Reset them to 0/0 (basic/advanced) for everyone in game.
3. Count up how many skill points have been trained by attribute. - Count skills trained with an attribute as 'primary' with a weight of 1 for that attribute. - Count skills trained with an attribute as 'secondary' with a weight of 0.5 for that attribute. - Points spent training learning skills, though they would be 'lost' in resetting those skills to zero would still be counted for purposes of determining various attribute point pools.
4. Apply some agreed upon fraction of these skill point pools to their corresponding learning skills. - If (for example) a fifth of all skill point pools were applied to their corresponding earning skills, then a character with 5 million points pooled across various perception-based skills would see 1 million points applied to their basic perception learning skill. - Advanced learning skills would accrue skill points similarly, but still would require a skill book too 'unlock' them and wouldn't actually start gaining points until the corresponding base skill grew to level 4.
5. After the initial points are allocated, learning skills would continue to advance as people train other skills until the learning skills are (eventually) capped.
--
In a nutshell, veterans will see very little change - probably only losing L5 in their advanced learning skill categories. Newbies will be unable to sink several weeks of up-front training into skill points to optimize efficiency. Those who have just finished grinding through L5 in all the learning skills while trianing little else will be most negatively impacted.
Veterans will have benefited from the higher attributes for the duration they were trained, and will likely still see very high learning skills after the change due to all the skill points they have trained. Newbies won't even have to slog through the unrewarding 'learning skill month'. Everyone will effectively gain skill points faster as learning skills are gained on top of training other skills. Most importantly though, one of the least attractive (and poorly designed) features of EvE would be eliminated.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2009.01.18 17:48:00 -
[27]
Learning skills are how you learn patience in EVE.
Playing EVE requires a great deal of patience to be successful. |
Metalcali
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.18 18:08:00 -
[28]
Heard that I could find out how to be given stuff for free without playing the game and making a choice for myself in this thread. I'm a pretty new player to EVE (started in september) and learning skills are something you chose to train if you want to be serious about this game. You have a choice what to train, and if you want to play this game seriously, as you are paying for it, you talk to other players, check the forums, and get as much advice as you can and work on learning the curve there is to play the game as well. As someone else said, training the learning skills shows you are going to be dedicated and learn patience. If you don't want learning skills, then this isn't the game for you, in fact, what game where you train up a wide range of skills doesn't have some type of learning skills? Seeing as you're so concerned about new players not having the edge, dedicate yourself to noob areas more often and be the one to teach them |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.01.18 20:47:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 18/01/2009 20:47:23
Originally by: Metalcali Seeing as you're so concerned about new players not having the edge, dedicate yourself to noob areas more often and be the one to teach them
http://www.marcus-gideon.com
--- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Orb Lati
Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.18 20:58:00 -
[30]
Learning skills are not the problem. The problem is with new players being told to train learning skills first.
The correct advise to give new players is first train up a ship class (plus gunnery and supporting skills) in which they can have fun in for a few months then go do your learning skills.
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