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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Reathena	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:13:00 - [1] ESRB? WTF is an ESRB and why does Eve now come with a warning like a pack of cigarettes? Extremely Stupid Regurgitating Buffalo? Especially Silly Ruling Body? Exquisitly Sublime Reality Bliss? Ok, Ok, I know I can look it up and find out that it is some rating service. But really! It's already in the EULA. I don't want to see it every time I log in. Make it go away, please.
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:14:00 - [2] Entertainment Software Rating Board.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:18:00 - [3] Who is the ESRB? You've never bought a videogame before?! The ESRB is a ratings organization that publishers voluntarily submit their games to. CCP tries to aim for a TEEN rating by ESRB, which means that the content is less mature than, say, Fable II, which is a Mature rated console game in which you can beat your kids, have sex, cheat on your wife, have a same-sex partner and beat your children. As much as I and others would like it, they will probably always aim for "T for Teen" rather than make the game brutal and harsh. After all, we all know EVE is full of fourtee year old kids, because they LOVE spreadsheets! Also, the ESRB is entirely voluntary, so anyone (in America, at least) that suggests to you that it is "illegal" for a retail store to sell a minor an M-rated game is ignorant and full of crap. -- Dirk Magnum's Heartfelt Confession
Reathena	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:32:00 - [4] I see that the sarcasm was lost on some. I just do not like my entertainment labeled like a pack of cigarettes. What's next? "WARNING: Immersion in fantasy world may be hazardous to your mental health" ??? Puhleeeze! It's in the EULA - that should be enough - I don't want to see it every time I log in. point. My opinion. My desire. Only way to let CCP know about it is to cast my vote here.
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:34:00 - [5] Edited by: Alex Raptos on 16/01/2009 19:34:28 Its a freaking SENTANCE in something like 16 point BOLD at the top of the NEWS SECTION. Its hardly as bad as some of the god-damn recruitment advertising EON is doing on the login screen. Edit; on closer inspection i find it may infact be closer to 20 POINT BOLD.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Reathena I see that the sarcasm was lost on some. I just do not like my entertainment labeled like a pack of cigarettes. What's next? "WARNING: Immersion in fantasy world may be hazardous to your mental health" ??? Puhleeeze! It's in the EULA - that should be enough - I don't want to see it every time I log in. point. My opinion. My desire. Only way to let CCP know about it is to cast my vote here. Silly us. You asked a question that you already knew the answer to and we answered it, not knowing you knew the answer. Including some sort of emphasis may have helped us understand that you were wasting our time asking a rhetorical question. Anyway, the ESRB is a bunch of **** suckers, but there's nothing we can do about it. Also, they've been putting warnings on entertainment for twenty years now. Remember the whole Twisted Sister debacle with Tipper Gore?
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:50:00 - [7] Though I have to say I did wonder why ESRB bothered to rate an online game when every time they say ESRB ratings do not apply when online or some crap like that. Pointless? c/d
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Kappas. Though I have to say I did wonder why ESRB bothered to rate an online game when every time they say ESRB ratings do not apply when online or some crap like that. Pointless? c/d They rate the content of the game, and then basically say "When playing with other human beings dont sue us if they swear on a PG game"
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Kappas. Though I have to say I did wonder why ESRB bothered to rate an online game when every time they say ESRB ratings do not apply when online or some crap like that. Pointless? c/d They say the interactions can not be rated. The content can be verified to meet a specific idiotic rating, but the interactions with other players does not fall into that classification. Obviously, CCP would have no interest in dealing with the ESRB. Especially since they're an online game and are not a US company. However, they are publishing - through ATARI - a physical version of the product in retail stores where the little ESRB rating on the box means something. What it means, I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps retailers will no longer bother selling a product that doesn't contain a voluntary rating, for all I know.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:21:00 - [10] personally I would go for an AO rating... hmmm more lolz killmails if wallmart is selling it I guess... DILEMMA!!!!!
Karando Random Goods	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton hmmm more lolz killmails if wallmart is selling it I guess... this ESRB american ****tard idiot warning combined with the recent retail distribution announcement is definitly not lolz. at least if they don't decide to remove newbie system griefing rules.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Karando Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton hmmm more lolz killmails if wallmart is selling it I guess... this ESRB american **tard idiot warning combined with the recent retail distribution announcement is definitly not lolz. at least if they don't decide to remove newbie system griefing rules. I see english words, and on their own, they make sense. But when I put them together, it is mind boggling. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Qordel Also, they've been putting warnings on entertainment for twenty years now. Remember the whole Twisted Sister debacle with Tipper Gore? You do realize that 1.) The ESRB is entirely voluntary. 2.) Aside from it being some sort of guide, is so very unrelated to what happend with the PRMC. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:09:00 - [14] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Qordel Also, they've been putting warnings on entertainment for twenty years now. Remember the whole Twisted Sister debacle with Tipper Gore? You do realize that 1.) The ESRB is entirely voluntary. Considering that's what I wrote, yes, I suppose I do realize that. --
Esna Pitoojee Amarr Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:55:00 - [15] This is most likely a prelude to the "Buy EVE in stores" thing - without an ESRB rating, EVE would be effectively unrated in North America, which is a status that causes certain assumptions (namely, that the game was so nasty that it burned out the eyes of the ratings people and they couldn't finish rating it). It's just move so that fifty gazillion terrified mothers don't decide to boycott CCP and refuse to allow there kids to buy EVE. That said, the average age of an EVE player is what? 23? I suspect the average would be even higher, if it weren't for thousands of Goons dragging it down.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Qordel However, they are publishing - through ATARI - a physical version of the product in retail stores where the little ESRB rating on the box means something. We will find a better place for this notice, but it is not going away. EVE Online is both ESRB and PEGI rated and ESRB has certain requirements that we must fulfill for physical distribution. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:12:00 - [17] In after Explorer. ...but on a serious note, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:20:00 - [18] Think you can post the video you sent to the ESRB, CCP Explorer? I would be curious as to what you consider to be the most brutal and violent parts of EVE -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Qordel Considering that's what I wrote in my very firt response -- yes, I suppose I do realize that. Hey, you should be happy I made it through one post, that was like climbing Mt Everest. I wasn't going back to the base for round two.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.18 01:02:00 - [20] Edited by: Armoured C on 18/01/2009 01:03:12 as long as it not rated by the BBFC i will sell it to all the customer that walk through those GAME doors =) hell i have a eve online tshirt come box day as my manager said i could wear it :) but if there is any CCP employees listening that want to give me stuff to promote there product to everyone that comes through the store i would happily provide my address and return most of the stuff what i said most
Jazerus	Posted - 2009.01.18 04:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Qordel They say the interactions can not be rated. The content can be verified to meet a specific idiotic rating, but the interactions with other players does not fall into that classification. Obviously, CCP would have no interest in dealing with the ESRB. Especially since they're an online game and are not a US company. However, they are publishing - through ATARI - a physical version of the product in retail stores where the little ESRB rating on the box means something. What it means, I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps retailers will no longer bother selling a product that doesn't contain a voluntary rating, for all I know. American retailers don't sell games that are not rated by the ESRB except under very unusual circumstances, so pandering to the ESRB is essentially necessary to gain access to the physical American market. The retailers were burned too many times years ago before ESRB was mandatory by people who would buy violent games for their kids and then try to cause legal trouble for the store they bought it from.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 04:58:00 - [22] Edited by: Jesslyn Daggererux on 18/01/2009 05:00:12 The ESRB was an American made organization that was made by the gaming industry to self regulate so the government wouldn't get involved. If a store chooses to follow it and not allow a 12 year old to buy GTA8: Californication thats their prerogative. It's their store, they have the right to refuse service in some instances. There's nothing wrong with that. If a parent thinks their child can handle Hot Coffee then they can buy it for them, but it's at least a little helpful barrier and guideline to help parents who don't want to research every game their child wants. In America, no game is truly 'Banned', but re-releases have been made. Get over it?
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:02:00 - [23] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Qordel However, they are publishing - through ATARI - a physical version of the product in retail stores where the little ESRB rating on the box means something. We will find a better place for this notice, but it is not going away. EVE Online is both ESRB and PEGI rated and ESRB has certain requirements that we must fulfill for physical distribution. This. What this really means though is that because Walmart refuses to sell any game with the M or AO rating attached to it the game must be rated T if they ever hope to see any kind of meaningful retail distribution. Since Walmart rules the retail world they get the say what lives or dies.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:09:00 - [24] Can't you hide the ESRB warning for subscribers not in the US or other countries that use that rating system?

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:14:00 - [25] EVE has had a ESRB and PEGI rating since release I believe, as it was originally sold in stores back then. The ratings didn't go away but were less important when we only had digital distribution. While there are no legal requirements to have a rating most stores won't sell a game without one, and many stores won't sell games above Teen rated ones, or at least Mature rated ones. Personally I don't think ratings are such a bad thing, at least for parents with kids.

Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:15:00 - [26] Can you throw the ERSB notice either in the splash screen or the "about" section of the escape menu?
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:20:00 - [27] Why does it matter? It's on a page you probably view for less than 1 minute a day, even if you log out and switch characters once in awhile. This isn't a glitch, or a broken mechanic, it's a small little notice. Compared to most games, it is nothing at all. It sounds like it has to be in a readily viewable area, in 2 weeks you wont even notice it. How about we get answers to some real questions, like how can we further nerf Caldari? I want them to be the new "lol Amarr".
Dahak2150 Rowdy Ramblers	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Reathena ESRB? WTF is an ESRB and why does Eve now come with a warning like a pack of cigarettes? Extremely Stupid Regurgitating Buffalo? Especially Silly Ruling Body? Exquisitly Sublime Reality Bliss? Ok, Ok, I know I can look it up and find out that it is some rating service. But really! It's already in the EULA. I don't want to see it every time I log in. Make it go away, please. Welp, it's official, EVE is such a perfect game that this is the worst thing we have to complain about. We salute you CCP.
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.18 06:35:00 - [29] When Eve was first released, it was boxed. they changed the name of drugs to boosters to get the T rating so Walmart would sell the game. True story. Eve is a t rated game. that is some effective rating system, ain't it? -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.18 06:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Dahak2150 Originally by: Reathena ESRB? WTF is an ESRB and why does Eve now come with a warning like a pack of cigarettes? Extremely Stupid Regurgitating Buffalo? Especially Silly Ruling Body? Exquisitly Sublime Reality Bliss? Ok, Ok, I know I can look it up and find out that it is some rating service. But really! It's already in the EULA. I don't want to see it every time I log in. Make it go away, please. Welp, it's official, EVE is such a perfect game that this is the worst thing we have to complain about. We salute you CCP. My leg hurts. Fix it CCP! ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Tuttomenui II Gallente Byrds Research And Development	Posted - 2009.01.18 07:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Tuttomenui II on 18/01/2009 07:05:08 Originally by: Qordel Also, the ESRB is entirely voluntary, so anyone (in America, at least) that suggests to you that it is "illegal" for a retail store to sell a minor an M-rated game is ignorant and full of crap. I got carded by the idiot at the mall when I bought GTA 2, yes GTA 2 (TWO).. I bought it when i was 17 or 18. Being carded for a game was hilarious. oh BTW I live in america. Also when i was 20 I worked at a place that had 14-15 year olds working there to and a girl had me buy a cd for her cause it was parent advisory and she was worried they wouldnt sell it to her, being that she was 14. Incase your wondering, I dont buy alcohol for miners, or cigerettes, I stop at cds and video games. As far as legality, Im not sure. I think the *** at the mall carded me cause he could not really cause he had to. ^^ My Signiture is an actual Signiture WOW!!!^^**
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.18 10:39:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Qordel However, they are publishing - through ATARI - a physical version of the product in retail stores where the little ESRB rating on the box means something. We will find a better place for this notice, but it is not going away. EVE Online is both ESRB and PEGI rated and ESRB has certain requirements that we must fulfill for physical distribution. You should put it in small print at the bottom of the display, not in big annoying print at the top. ----------------------------------------------------

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:23:00 - [33] Originally by: Farrellus Cameron You should put it in small print at the bottom of the display, not in big annoying print at the top. The guidelines we need to follow require the use of certain font sizes and placement. For instance putting it in the EULA is not enough. You need to see the warning before login of every single game session. Not complying with the regulations means fines and the risk of the certification being withdrawn and the subsequent recall from shelves by major retailers. Computer Entertainment Retail Operations: Definitely not all fun and games.

Feilamya Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Qordel The ESRB is a ratings organization that publishers voluntarily submit their games to. CCP tries to aim for a TEEN rating by ESRB, which means that the content is less mature than, say, Fable II, which is a Mature rated console game in which you can beat your kids, have sex, cheat on your wife, have a same-sex partner and beat your children. But apparently teenagers are old enough to become criminals. Unlike most other games, EVE does not reward you for killing (which is OK in western culture, except in Germany) but teaches you about risk and reward, how to scam, how to fake your identity and other stuff that helps if you choose a more ... interesting carreer irl.
Shevar Minmatar Target Practise Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:59:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Farrellus Cameron You should put it in small print at the bottom of the display, not in big annoying print at the top. The guidelines we need to follow require the use of certain font sizes and placement. For instance putting it in the EULA is not enough. You need to see the warning before login of every single game session. Not complying with the regulations means fines and the risk of the certification being withdrawn and the subsequent recall from shelves by major retailers. Computer Entertainment Retail Operations: Definitely not all fun and games. Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:06:00 - [36] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Can you throw the ERSB notice either in the splash screen or the "about" section of the escape menu? We can't place it in the ESC menu given the specific requirements from ESRB on font size and notice placement. This notice will move to the lower left corner of the login screen in the next expansion.


CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Shevar Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? You are not looking hard enough. Lower left corner here.

Shevar Minmatar Target Practise Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:11:00 - [38] Edited by: Shevar on 18/01/2009 12:14:05 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Shevar Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? You are not looking hard enough. Lower left corner here. Nope says pegi 12+ for me.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:12:00 - [39] Edited by: CCP Whisper on 18/01/2009 12:12:19 Originally by: Shevar Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? It's there. Lower left-hand corner. Edit: Beaten by Explorer...but only because I took the time to draw in an arrow.


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Shevar Nope says pegi 12+ for me. That's probably because you are using a European version of WoW or connecting to a European server. No clue how Blizzard handles that. But as far as I know we do not have to display the PEGI rating, only the ESRB one.


CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:17:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Shevar Nope says pegi 12+ for me. That's probably because you are using a European version of WoW or connecting to a European server. No clue how Blizzard handles that. But as far as I know we do not have to display the PEGI rating, only the ESRB one. WoW is sharded and they have different clients for different servers based on geographic regions. EVE is a single universe, single server and we have a single client (in two art content editions).


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:19:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Shevar Nope says pegi 12+ for me. That's probably because you are using a European version of WoW or connecting to a European server. No clue how Blizzard handles that. But as far as I know we do not have to display the PEGI rating, only the ESRB one. WoW is sharded and they have different clients for different servers based on geographic regions. EVE is a single universe, single server and we have a single client (in two art content editions). ...and now I know. And knowing is half the battle.

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:26:00 - [43] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Shevar Nope says pegi 12+ for me. That's probably because you are using a European version of WoW or connecting to a European server. No clue how Blizzard handles that. But as far as I know we do not have to display the PEGI rating, only the ESRB one. WoW is sharded and they have different clients for different servers based on geographic regions. EVE is a single universe, single server and we have a single client (in two art content editions). ...and now I know. And knowing is half the battle. whats the other half?
Shevar Minmatar Target Practise Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:28:00 - [44] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: CCP Whisper That's probably because you are using a European version of WoW or connecting to a European server. No clue how Blizzard handles that. But as far as I know we do not have to display the PEGI rating, only the ESRB one. WoW is sharded and they have different clients for different servers based on geographic regions. EVE is a single universe, single server and we have a single client (in two art content editions). ...and now I know. And knowing is half the battle. whats the other half? Probably involves forks and eyes. But yes I do play on a Euro server, but anyhow how about using all the extra cash we Euro's provide with our stable currency for a nice shiny ESBR'less login screen?
Asestorian Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:29:00 - [45] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: CCP Whisper ...and now I know. And knowing is half the battle. whats the other half? Guns. And bombs.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:29:00 - [46] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: CCP Whisper ...and now I know. And knowing is half the battle. whats the other half? Superior firepower. Or a well bribed traitor if that's more your thing.

Lord Windu Echelon Holdings Echelon.	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:18:00 - [47] Originally by: CCP Whisper Edited by: CCP Whisper on 18/01/2009 12:12:19 Originally by: Shevar Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? It's there. Lower left-hand corner. You have a wow client? A DEV plays WoW? I sure hope to god that you don't have that filth installed at the CCP offices. March expansion update- Eve will now have Dungeons and players will be able to play musical instruments thanks to Whisper
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:18:00 - [48] As a father and Eve player, I fully support PEGI and ESRB rating, though my son is only 4 at the moment. But those ratings are great guides to the content you are purchasing. Then you, as a father, decide what you allow your children to see or not.
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:19:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: CCP Whisper ...and now I know. And knowing is half the battle. whats the other half? Superior firepower. Or a well bribed traitor if that's more your thing. You have spies in Blizzard, C/d?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:43:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE has had a ESRB and PEGI rating since release I believe, as it was originally sold in stores back then. The ratings didn't go away but were less important when we only had digital distribution. While there are no legal requirements to have a rating most stores won't sell a game without one, and many stores won't sell games above Teen rated ones, or at least Mature rated ones. Personally I don't think ratings are such a bad thing, at least for parents with kids. I agree that voluntary ratings systems are reasonable so that people can help choose what kind of content they want to let their children consume, but not at the expense of other free adults who have the right to choose what content they want to consume. Unfortunately, that is exactly what these voluntary ratings accomplish, because when making content for a game you are forced to constrain it to certain levels fit to reach that demographic audience in a way deemed acceptable by the ratings board, rather than just making great content and letting people decide for themselves directly what they do and do not want. There are AO ratings for adults, but nobody sells those, because of the 'stigma'. So the voluntary rating strips away an entire layer of entertainment for people who aren't twelve years old (because retailers usually won't stock AO and developers therefore won't produce AO games). Sure, it's a business decision. It's just unfortunate that those of us in our 20s, 30s and 40s are subject to content that is filtered voluntarily by a publisher and developer to the level of a thirteen year old kid to meet a voluntary rating so that it can be voluntarily sold in retail stores. Imagine if all the great R movies you love were voluntarily stripped of the content that made them R so that they could be marketed and sold to thirteen year old kids? Let the adults have their entertainment. Let the kids have theirs. EVE has an older playerbase, I believe, and it seems aiming for a Mature rating would be more reasonable. After all, how many 13, 14, 15 and 16 year olds are playing the game? Is it truly worth voluntarily restricting the content of a game to reach those people? Hell, Fable II has all sorts of mature content (which is part of what makes it such a quirky game). It's M and it sells pretty well. Sure, where EVE is involved it is a minor nitpick. I'm just saying that it isn't so voluntary as you suggest. As you yourself said, it's hard to get a game sold in a retail without being rated by the ESRB. Therefore, it is voluntary in theory but mandatory in practice. I happen to think that there is a great deal of opportunity for an MMO that caters entirely to the mature players (even though some of us in EVE are not so terribly mature at times, despite our chronological age). Hell, imagine the marketing you could do by aiming for an 'M' and setting yourself apart. Anyway, it doesn't matter in the large picture view of things, I suppose. Just sayin' . . . --
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Tuttomenui II Edited by: Tuttomenui II on 18/01/2009 07:05:08 Originally by: Qordel Also, the ESRB is entirely voluntary, so anyone (in America, at least) that suggests to you that it is "illegal" for a retail store to sell a minor an M-rated game is ignorant and full of crap. I got carded by the idiot at the mall when I bought GTA 2, yes GTA 2 (TWO).. I bought it when i was 17 or 18. Being carded for a game was hilarious. oh BTW I live in america. Also when i was 20 I worked at a place that had 14-15 year olds working there to and a girl had me buy a cd for her cause it was parent advisory and she was worried they wouldnt sell it to her, being that she was 14. Incase your wondering, I dont buy alcohol for miners, or cigerettes, I stop at cds and video games. As far as legality, Im not sure. I think the ***** at the mall carded me cause he could not really cause he had to. There are no laws in America which forbid selling any videogame to anyone of any age. The two major laws (including the one in California, signed by Schwarzenegger) have been struck down as unconstitutional. The other one resulted in the state having to pay money to some software association for unfairly limiting their sales. Ratings are voluntary. Period. The reason stores will card you has nothing to do with the law, but with company policy. That company policy exists because they don't want to deal with angry parents who can't control their kids. Parents whose children somehow got hold of $65 and walked into a store and bought a game with a bare breast in it (remember, violence is largely okay in a Teen title - it's dirty filthy flesh that must be prohibited!). If ratings must exist, then they should be used to guide the consumer into choosing their content and not used to prevent certain people - regardless of age - from purchasing whatever content they want. Unfortunately, parents tend to be a bit ignorant and reactionary so the only way to deal with them is to just adhere to the voluntary ratings on the box as if it were law. Otherwise you're going to have CliffyB standing in front of Congress with Henry Jenkins (that great MIT professor who has defended goths, videogamers, etc with his excellent arguments and logic for many years now) -- all because some busy body group of bothers has accused the videogame industry of turning their precious little children into satanists or something. But I guarantee that the ratings are entirely voluntary (in theory a least) and there is no law involved in the ratings or the refusal to sell certain content to certain age groups. The ESRB even states this on their own site Sadly, it seems like the entire world will eventually be nerfed so that all content meets the approval of parents for consumption by their little Johnny. Hope the rest of us dont' mind Sponge Bob. --
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:00:00 - [52] Originally by: Dmian As a father and Eve player, I fully support PEGI and ESRB rating, though my son is only 4 at the moment. But those ratings are great guides to the content you are purchasing. Then you, as a father, decide what you allow your children to see or not. Agreed. It's reasonable to want something that gives you a rough idea of what content is in something since you may want to buy something for a child and you don't want to have to sit down and play through it or watch the entire movie or listen to the entire CD. As long as it remains a GUIDELINE. Unfortunately, in practice, it actually limits everyone. As i explained in my reply to Wrangler, these voluntary ratings for parents end up being implemented in an "you can not buy this because of your age" rule in the store. Even though there isn't any law requiring it. And that would be okay, too, except that to be put on retail shelves, retailers demand that you adhere to these voluntary labels. And once you are labeled, you suddenly have to fit into a neat little category. It means that except for a few exceptions, content is dumbed down so that it meets the approval for play by, say, a twelve or thirteen year old. Because of marketing. Because of retail space. And it means that AO content flat out will never exist. So in a roundabout way, to "protect" your four year old kid, the content a 30 year old man plays has to be fitting for a thirteen year old kid. People don't just create compelling content and let it be what it is naturally. They have to be aware of every bit of content they're creating and think "is this acceptable in most people's minds for a thirteen year old?". Sometimes, as an adult, you just want to be able to have content that is aimed at you. You don't want to have everything covered in rounded soft corners just to avoid having some busy body freak out because she ignored the content and let her ten year old play a game filled with brutal decapitations or drugs or sexual references or "intense moments".
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:01:00 - [53] It is really sad that it are the non-gamers telling us gamers what content should be allowed in games, what kind of games can or cannot be sold in stores, and essentially what kind of games can be made or not. The whole rating system is designed to please the non-gaming parents and game-hating community. Sure, voluntary guidelines are good, but not when their effective control over a large part of the market has such constrictive results.
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:10:00 - [54] Originally by: CCP Whisper Edited by: CCP Whisper on 18/01/2009 12:12:19 Originally by: Shevar Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? It's there. Lower left-hand corner. Edit: Beaten by Explorer...but only because I took the time to draw in an arrow. And now we know that CCP play WoW. Incoming whinestorm from many alts imminent.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Gnomes Rock And now we know that CCP play WoW. Incoming whinestorm from many alts imminent. Google is such an amazing tool.

Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Gnomes Rock Originally by: CCP Whisper Edited by: CCP Whisper on 18/01/2009 12:12:19 Originally by: Shevar Why don't I remember seeing this warning with WoW then? It's there. Lower left-hand corner. Edit: Beaten by Explorer...but only because I took the time to draw in an arrow. And now we know that CCP play WoW. Incoming whinestorm from many alts imminent. I would expect that many from CCP play countless MMOs so that they know what the competition is doing and can have insight into new mechanics and ideas that others may be implementing and how the playerbase is responding to it. That's why the Jove are going to look like Tauren.
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:17:00 - [57] walmart sells M rated games...what are you guys talking about?
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:33:00 - [58] can you CCP add a thing like this "many eve-online players dont like wowkids so GTFO" on log in screen ? btw is against EULA to change that only on my login screen ?
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:35:00 - [59] I'm not a fan of these ratings, which are arbitrary and potentially damaging to EVE. For instance, they may have to ALTER content in this game in order to get the "Tween" rating that practically everyone tries for, much as you don't often see rated R movies anymore, everything is PG-13. Content such as boosters (drugs, etc) might have to be taken out. Something similar happened to SWG, of course minor compared to the self-inflicted NGE gunshot wound, but they got rid of "spice" because of this. Spice is a drug in the "Star Wars" universe. Honestly, what does CCP hope to gain from putting boxes on shelves again? I don't see much coming from it. Most game stores these days (sadly) have little or no PC gaming section at all, as I found the other day when I stopped by the local gamestop to get a copy of Call of Duty World at War... I see retail as something that will end up being an expense rather than a gain. Atari also isn't exactly the most skilled of PC publishers, much as I hate to say that about a beloved old name. EVE has grown to be 2nd amongst all full subscription MMORPG's in the US and EU, a distant second to WOW, true, but a position of great success, surpassing companies FAR larger than CCP, such as SOE and NCSoft, and did this WITHOUT retail box distribution.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Qordel Originally by: Reathena I see that the sarcasm was lost on some. I just do not like my entertainment labeled like a pack of cigarettes. What's next? "WARNING: Immersion in fantasy world may be hazardous to your mental health" ??? Puhleeeze! It's in the EULA - that should be enough - I don't want to see it every time I log in. point. My opinion. My desire. Only way to let CCP know about it is to cast my vote here. Silly us. You asked a question that you already knew the answer to and we answered it, not knowing you knew the answer. Including some sort of emphasis may have helped us understand that you were wasting our time asking a rhetorical question. Anyway, the ESRB is a bunch of **** suckers, but there's nothing we can do about it. Also, they've been putting warnings on entertainment for twenty years now. Remember the whole Twisted Sister debacle with Tipper Gore? That was the PMRC
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Nikita Alterana walmart sells M rated games...what are you guys talking about? Walmart also often demands edits be made to games and albums they sell as well, which is why I don't buy games or music there. --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Originally by: Qordel Originally by: Reathena I see that the sarcasm was lost on some. I just do not like my entertainment labeled like a pack of cigarettes. What's next? "WARNING: Immersion in fantasy world may be hazardous to your mental health" ??? Puhleeeze! It's in the EULA - that should be enough - I don't want to see it every time I log in. point. My opinion. My desire. Only way to let CCP know about it is to cast my vote here. Silly us. You asked a question that you already knew the answer to and we answered it, not knowing you knew the answer. Including some sort of emphasis may have helped us understand that you were wasting our time asking a rhetorical question. Anyway, the ESRB is a bunch of **** suckers, but there's nothing we can do about it. Also, they've been putting warnings on entertainment for twenty years now. Remember the whole Twisted Sister debacle with Tipper Gore? That was the PMRC Yes, the PMRC was behind finally forcing labels onto records. And...? Oh, I see. I guess you thought "they've been putting warnings" was in reference to the ESRB doing that. No, that was a collective they as in all the frigid busy-bodies that put labels on stuff and want to keep everyone from anything they personally don't like. --
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:40:00 - [63] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Originally by: Qordel Originally by: Reathena I see that the sarcasm was lost on some. I just do not like my entertainment labeled like a pack of cigarettes. What's next? "WARNING: Immersion in fantasy world may be hazardous to your mental health" ??? Puhleeeze! It's in the EULA - that should be enough - I don't want to see it every time I log in. point. My opinion. My desire. Only way to let CCP know about it is to cast my vote here. Silly us. You asked a question that you already knew the answer to and we answered it, not knowing you knew the answer. Including some sort of emphasis may have helped us understand that you were wasting our time asking a rhetorical question. Anyway, the ESRB is a bunch of **** suckers, but there's nothing we can do about it. Also, they've been putting warnings on entertainment for twenty years now. Remember the whole Twisted Sister debacle with Tipper Gore? That was the PMRC The PMRC was Algore's crusade previous to his current "Goreacle of Global Warming" one. And does anyone else see the irony of having to produce government ID to purchase: cigarettes, beer, and video games, but if it's suggested that one have to do the same before VOTING that is called racist or "nativist"? --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Nikita Alterana walmart sells M rated games...what are you guys talking about? Walmart also often demands edits be made to games and albums they sell as well, which is why I don't buy games or music there. Not just the content, but the covers as well. I don't know if it is still the case, but CDs used to be manufactured separately for walmart, so they could change the covers and sometimes even change the lyrics on the songs inside. Also, just because a place sells something that is M rated doesn't mean much. Publishers often tone down the content of their game to meet a T rating just for a broader audience, the same way they'll often take a perfectly fine R movie and strip anything interesting out of it so it can be a PG or a PG13. Also, they do not carry AO titles. That is the problem with the ratings. They stigmatize content and put eveyrone into little categories so that a publisher has to pick and choose, rather than just making a good product and not being concious of "oh, but in this one country the age limit for a reading is XYZ and in this other country it's ABC". Another thing to keep in mind is that with an international game like EVE, they will run into other problems. Each country has a different ratings system. For example, in America, there is T. That's 13-16. Then there's M. That's 17+. In other countries (Australia, I think?) the rating after teen is 15+. So how do you balance that with the American rating that lumps 15/16 into 13/14/15/16? Or what about the 12+ rating versus the 13+ rating in America? You end up with the content being struck toward the lowest common denominator. If it's not good enough for 12 year old little johnny, it's not good enough for 35 year old John. I'm not suggesting that any of this is CCP's doing. It's the **** they have to deal with for playing the entertainment business game and wanting to get their game on shelves. --
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:52:00 - [65] Oh - the other problem with a game like EVE is that it's a single game, internationally. That means that they truly do have to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator. For example, violence and certain references are frowned upon in places like Germany. That's why games for Germany and Australia are very often altered to meet the individual ratings boards in those countries. However, in America, violence is totally okay - you just don't want anyone seeing a naked body. Or part of a naked body. Or the suggestion of sex. Or drugs. But violence is totally okay. So how do you appease both when it's one single game and you can't just print off two versions of GTA for each country? Well, you tone down everything. --
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:03:00 - [66] Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 18/01/2009 15:04:15 Originally by: Nikita Alterana walmart sells M rated games...what are you guys talking about? If you're referring to Oblivion it was released in America with a T rating and the ESRB later changed it to an M because they got ****ing lazy and didn't actually play the game past getting out of the first dungeon. GTA whatever number that was originally released with a T (LOL prostitution) and only changed it to M AFTER that big Hot Coffee debacle on ALL the GTA games despite the fact it was only viewable on the PC version for that one sequel (or was it on the original?) and only AFTER you patched it. Knee jerk reactions FTL. --- My cat Putter approves of this post.
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Kravick Drasari GTA whatever number that was originally released with a T (LOL prostitution) and only changed it to M AFTER that big Hot Coffee debacle on ALL the GTA games despite the fact it was only viewable on the PC version for that one sequel (or was it on the original?) and only AFTER you patched it. Knee jerk reactions FTL. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.
Suboran Gallente Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:11:00 - [68] can you make the print go away please. Its beggining to affect my online experience
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:12:00 - [69] Walmart didn't sell M rated games in 2003, when Eve came in a box the first time IIRC -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Eraza Gallente Fuzzyness Enterprizes	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:00:00 - [70] Edited by: Eraza on 18/01/2009 16:01:14 i'm afraid i must agree with the whining here, those esrb notices are annoying, especially in the center, and i'm sure i can safely say that not even my mother pays attention to those warnings anyway, all they do is make three old men who think kids will go insane from seeing a woman topless happy(i'm not kidding, i have seen a video of someone saying that), and annoys the rest of the world and really, does this increase sales that much? personally i think that a game having a teen rating is a bad thing, and it usually makes me wonder if the game is censored in places that could dilute the gameplay. on the other hand, when i see games with an M rating, and it's not about just killing people for no reason, or sex, then i think, "hey, someone had the balls to tell their story like they wanted and give those paranoid raitings people the finger!" and i know at least every single one of my friends thinks something similar guess which game i'm going to buy on a whim, and which one i'll think about for a while longer, and then probably forget about? :)
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:01:00 - [71] Edited by: Maria Kalista on 18/01/2009 16:01:05 I start thinking about the Empyrean age trailer. With the fully nude fleshy corpses floating in full glory in space. Even with nude boobies included. Not that I have a Necrophilia tick but I sure hope that CCP is not being forced to tune things like that down because they're selling a few boxed versions.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:01:00 - [72] Agreed with the above poster. Also, EVE is a cold, harsh place... Only fit for those twelve years and older!
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:05:00 - [73] Originally by: Maria Kalista Edited by: Maria Kalista on 18/01/2009 16:01:05 I start thinking about the Empyrean age trailer. With the fully nude fleshy corpses floating in full glory in space. Even with nude boobies included. Not that I have a Necrophilia tick but I sure hope that CCP is not being forced to tune things like that down because they're selling a few boxed versions. The ratings wouldn't apply to promotion material, surely. But there is no way that content would make it in-game with that level of graphic detail.
Elliot Reid Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:08:00 - [74] Whether people agree with the rating system or not, and it's placement requirements, is totally moot since CCP HAVE to include it to sell in shops. Surely there are more imnportant things in EVE, and the world for that matter, to worry/complain about than a bit of text that most people ignore in the couple of seconds they are on the page it is on?
Eraza Gallente Fuzzyness Enterprizes	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Qordel Well, you tone down everything. and thus, make the game less enjoyable all around anyone remember the robot version of carmageddon? or the zombie one? how many actually didnt mind that one? i know i for one, if i would have failed at finding the uncensored version, i would simply not have played it. without people to kill carmageddon was just... YET another racing game..
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:12:00 - [76] Edited by: Qordel on 18/01/2009 16:15:38 I thought the following would be interesting to note. A few things are confusing, though. For example, what the hell is "fantasy" violence? What the hell is a suggestive theme? Suggestive of what? Violence? Drugs? Sex? Religion? Atheism? Questioning authority? What?! Further, how can you have violence but minimal blood? Also, it's odd that any nudity at all is only appropriate for adults. Especially since until the late 1990s, there were states in America where the age of sexual consent was a shocking twelve or fourteen in. And how do you have sexual content at M but no nudity until AO? What the..? EC == EARLY CHILDHOOD Titles rated EC (Early Childhood) have content that may be suitable for ages 3 and older. Contains no material that parents would find inappropriate. E == EVERYONE Titles rated E (Everyone) have content that may be suitable for ages 6 and older. Titles in this category may contain minimal cartoon, fantasy or mild violence and/or infrequent use of mild language. E10+ == EVERYONE 10+ Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes. T == TEEN Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language. M == MATURE Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language. AO == ADULTS ONLY Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.
Eraza Gallente Fuzzyness Enterprizes	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:12:00 - [77] Edited by: Eraza on 18/01/2009 16:15:41 Edited by: Eraza on 18/01/2009 16:13:34 Originally by: Elliot Reid Whether people agree with the rating system or not, and it's placement requirements, is totally moot since CCP HAVE to include it to sell in shops. Surely there are more imnportant things in EVE, and the world for that matter, to worry/complain about than a bit of text that most people ignore in the couple of seconds they are on the page it is on? well, for me, it's not really about the rating being there,(although personally ESRB as a whole just annoys me) it's mostly about that i really hope they have the sence to not gimp the gameplay experience, or art, just to get a lower rating
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:17:00 - [78] Personally I would prefer that institutions like ESRB got closed down and the money went to better education measures. Then maybe people could start thinking for themselves.
wickedpheonix	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:24:00 - [79] Edited by: wickedpheonix on 18/01/2009 16:25:01 Does EVE need an ESRB rating? Yeah - especially for retail distribution. However IMHO it needs to re-aim for an M rating if the developers so believe in the consequential material. EVE doesn't cater to children in terms of it's gameplay style (spreadsheets FTW), and that's in very small part why EVE is great - no twelve-year-olds screaming on mics. However, I don't see how CCP would drop M-rated content into EVE right now and definitively make the experience better - i.e. changing corpses in space to nude models doesn't really do anything for the game. However, when Ambulation comes along, the introduction of proper gentleman clubs in the lower-class areas of space lends to the seedy nature of low-sec and would improve the atmosphere of the game; thus, aiming for an M-rating is OK. BTW last time I checked, Walmart stocked Halo (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5515987), which means that Walmart DOES stock M-rated games - it's the AO games that retailers routinely shy away (something that needs to be changed - refusing to sell AO games based on their rating/content needs to get criminalized, fast, so long as retailers are still selling some other kind of adult content, be it ****ography/NC-17 movies or steamy romance novels).
Yarik Mendel Privateers	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:36:00 - [80] I was very offended by the ESRB warning Why didn't CCP warn me about it with another warning message?
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.18 18:06:00 - [81] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Shevar Nope says pegi 12+ for me. That's probably because you are using a European version of WoW or connecting to a European server. No clue how Blizzard handles that. But as far as I know we do not have to display the PEGI rating, only the ESRB one. L2 doesnt have the ESRB notice.. I've never seen one ever from l2, and they still don't have it, and they sell is stones :s
Tuttomenui II Gallente Byrds Research And Development	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:01:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Whisper Google is such an amazing tool. Lately Google hasnt been as reliable for me, I keep getting results that are tagged wrong or something and hav e a fake label so they turn up at the top of the results and lead to sites that try to get me to scan my computer using some POS spyware/malware fly by night scanner that reports fake results, and is really hard to uninstall. Good thing I only fall for crap like that once every couple years.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.18 20:25:00 - [83] Originally by: Reathena I don't want to see it every time I log in. Make it go away, please. Hahaha.. Just noticed they increased the size of the font for the ESRB notice on the character select screen. Owned.
Arvald Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2009.01.18 20:41:00 - [84] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Farrellus Cameron You should put it in small print at the bottom of the display, not in big annoying print at the top. The guidelines we need to follow require the use of certain font sizes and placement. For instance putting it in the EULA is not enough. You need to see the warning before login of every single game session. Not complying with the regulations means fines and the risk of the certification being withdrawn and the subsequent recall from shelves by major retailers. Computer Entertainment Retail Operations: Definitely not all fun and games. thus proving once and for all that internet spaceships are sereous buisiness
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2009.01.18 22:12:00 - [85] Originally by: Reathena ESRB? It's there to help artificially inflate the forum database with whine. Scared of the events forum?
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:34:00 - [86] Originally by: Qordel Agreed. It's reasonable to want something that gives you a rough idea of what content is in something since you may want to buy something for a child and you don't want to have to sit down and play through it or watch the entire movie or listen to the entire CD. As long as it remains a GUIDELINE. Unfortunately, in practice, it actually limits everyone. As i explained in my reply to Wrangler, these voluntary ratings for parents end up being implemented in an "you can not buy this because of your age" rule in the store. Even though there isn't any law requiring it. And that would be okay, too, except that to be put on retail shelves, retailers demand that you adhere to these voluntary labels. And once you are labeled, you suddenly have to fit into a neat little category. It means that except for a few exceptions, content is dumbed down so that it meets the approval for play by, say, a twelve or thirteen year old. Because of marketing. Because of retail space. And it means that AO content flat out will never exist. So in a roundabout way, to "protect" your four year old kid, the content a 30 year old man plays has to be fitting for a thirteen year old kid. People don't just create compelling content and let it be what it is naturally. They have to be aware of every bit of content they're creating and think "is this acceptable in most people's minds for a thirteen year old?". Sometimes, as an adult, you just want to be able to have content that is aimed at you. You don't want to have everything covered in rounded soft corners just to avoid having some busy body freak out because she ignored the content and let her ten year old play a game filled with brutal decapitations or drugs or sexual references or "intense moments". I truly understand what you mean. But as a father and consumer, I do not dictate what's on the store or how a game is produced, neither do the people who create the ratings. They still have my full support because their guidance helps me as a consumer and a father. The problem you mention is another: why do game publishers and retail stores only want to sell games to 13 yo's? Probably because that's the more game demanding demographic. And they want those 13 year olds' money, and that's A LOT of money. And also because you can sell those game to adults too, and they won't complaint much (probably because some of them are like 13 YOs, but that's a different problem.) But you can't do the opposite, you can't sell adult games to teenagers. It looks as if, for the game industry, adult gaming was a niche market with low-profits. But we, parents, and the ratings people have nothing to do with that. Also, game studios have to deal with share-holders. They are constantly pushing to get more and more customes or players and earn more money. One of the strategies is broaden your player base by reaching a younger audience (if possible.) Again, parents and ratings people have nothing to do with that. So, there's no evil in the ratings, the problem basically is that by dumbing down games both publishers and retail stores sell more games. And there's not much that anyone can do about that... ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:50:00 - [87] Do these "legal" requirements extend to in-game content aside from the message? I've always liked the fact that EVE is apologetically dark, if it goes soft and starts worrying whether the content crosses the "T is for Teen" line then I will not be long of this universe..... I mean if Peter Molyneux can deal with a "Mature" rating and have the kind of commercial success he has had.... I wish CCP pushed the appropriateness barrier, it used to feel like it back a couple years ago but lately it feels like the threat of any potential bad press or what-have-you is a greater concern than then integrity of EVE (and don't give me any of that it can be Teen and have integrity, censorship is everything that is wrong with the world) -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.19 23:08:00 - [88] Originally by: Haradgrim Do these "legal" requirements extend to in-game content aside from the message? Extend, in what way? The rating indicates what the content is within the game. Therefore, if the game meets the US ESRB 13+ rating and the PEGI 12+ rating, then the content within the game is thereby restricted to that level. If the content in the game were to be of a more mature nature, then the ESRB and PEGI rating would be adjusted as it would no qualify for "T for TEEN" status.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.19 23:13:00 - [89] Originally by: Dmian I truly understand what you mean. But as a father and consumer, I do not dictate what's on the store or how a game is produced, neither do the people who create the ratings. They still have my full support because their guidance helps me as a consumer and a father. And yet, books don't contain warnings. Not everything in the world is for children. And that's fine if they want to have some sort of a resource (perhaps that website where the guy actually gives parents a meaningful rundown of actual game content rather than just an ESRB sticker). The problem is when it either directly or indirectly affects what adults can consume. I would be livid if the nature of "business" caused the public library to only stock books for the child's section, because they felt they were more acceptable than "mature" books. By claiming to "protect children" and imposing these ratings, they are doing far more than simply "guiding" parents in what they purchase for their children. They are flat out affecting what the rest of us are able to consume by the stigma and supposed demographics involved. Quote: The problem you mention is another: why do game publishers and retail stores only want to sell games to 13 yo's? Probably because that's the more game demanding demographic. And they want those 13 year olds' money, and that's A LOT of money. And also because you can sell those game to adults too, and they won't complaint much (probably because some of them are like 13 YOs, but that's a different problem.) But you can't do the opposite, you can't sell adult games to teenagers. Except that is not the case. Most gamers are adults. The average gamer is not a little kid. The average gamer is hitting 30 years old this year. The average gamer is an adult capable of choosing the content they purchase and consume. The average gamer has disposable income and purchases games throughout the year and not just when mom and dad or santa clause buy them something at the few periods throughout the year (which is why we saw such a block buster year in 2008 with great releases throughout the year instead of just before the holidays).
Element 22 Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.19 23:47:00 - [90] Ahh, I can't wait for the first hyperbola filled evening news story: "Eve-online, the new MMORPG for children that alows you to do unconsentual thing to other people! More at 11." or better yet "The shooter then proceded to shoot his classmates full of bullets while allegadly saying 'Learn to use sheild boosters noobs!'" mmm, blaming others for your short comings...I like this part of America. Also, personally I would prefer to have a goverment regulatory body in which case it would be more transparent and subject to change (which is a double edged sword I know). Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 00:05:00 - [91] Originally by: Element 22 Ahh, I can't wait for the first hyperbola filled evening news story: "Eve-online, the new MMORPG for children that alows you to do unconsentual thing to other people! More at 11." or better yet "The shooter then proceded to shoot his classmates full of bullets while allegadly saying 'Learn to use sheild boosters noobs!'" mmm, blaming others for your short comings...I like this part of America. Also, personally I would prefer to have a goverment regulatory body in which case it would be more transparent and subject to change (which is a double edged sword I know). This would be even worse. A government regulatory body would be made up of people who probably know nothing of video games but are political crony appointments.
Merasa Tro	Posted - 2009.01.20 12:14:00 - [92] Having a child should have a warning, or at the very least an EULA. "By having this child, you agree to: 1) Be responsible for it. 2) Not to take your brain off the hook and expect everyone else to give a damn about it. 3) Inflict your choice of lifestyle onto my lifestlye. /rant.... :)
Adaris Gallente E X I U S	Posted - 2009.01.20 17:00:00 - [93] I don't recognise the authority of this ESRB organisation. sighs, how great it is to be European. Oh crap.... we've got PEGI instead. ;(
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.20 17:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Adaris I don't recognise the authority of this ESRB organisation. sighs, how great it is to be European. Oh crap.... we've got PEGI instead. ;( Why do you care? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.20 18:49:00 - [95] Originally by: Qordel Who is the ESRB? You've never bought a videogame before?! The ESRB is a ratings organization that publishers voluntarily submit their games to. CCP tries to aim for a TEEN rating by ESRB, which means that the content is less mature than, say, Fable II, which is a Mature rated console game in which you can beat your kids, have sex, cheat on your wife, have a same-sex partner and beat your children. As much as I and others would like it, they will probably always aim for "T for Teen" rather than make the game brutal and harsh. After all, we all know EVE is full of fourtee year old kids, because they LOVE spreadsheets! Also, the ESRB is entirely voluntary, so anyone (in America, at least) that suggests to you that it is "illegal" for a retail store to sell a minor an M-rated game is ignorant and full of crap. OOO lists! I LOVE LISTS!! Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.20 18:54:00 - [96] Hey, the Devs play WOW. Who would have guessed... Not really a troll
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:04:00 - [97] Originally by: Element 22 Also, personally I would prefer to have a goverment regulatory body in which case it would be more transparent and subject to change (which is a double edged sword I know). Self censorship is awful enough. Government censorship is repulsive and would do nothing to change how retailers and developers are forced to shape their content and sales in relation. --
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:13:00 - [98] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE has had a ESRB and PEGI rating since release I believe, as it was originally sold in stores back then. The ratings didn't go away but were less important when we only had digital distribution. While there are no legal requirements to have a rating most stores won't sell a game without one, and many stores won't sell games above Teen rated ones, or at least Mature rated ones. Personally I don't think ratings are such a bad thing, at least for parents with kids. So how are they going to rate the Internet? What is CCP going to do, put in a word filter in the client so that parents can block bad words?
Lysianna Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:02:00 - [99] Not sure about the rest of the world but... Americans are known for suing anything and everything they can. ItÆs safer for CCP to put a warning and disclaimer about the possible content of the game then getting suied by an angry mother that just saw her 10 year old son saved the damsel in distress or scamming people lol.. Even some packs of gums have do not swallow warnings. ________________________________________________ Lysianna Hazumason Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:09:00 - [100] Originally by: Dreamwalker Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE has had a ESRB and PEGI rating since release I believe, as it was originally sold in stores back then. The ratings didn't go away but were less important when we only had digital distribution. While there are no legal requirements to have a rating most stores won't sell a game without one, and many stores won't sell games above Teen rated ones, or at least Mature rated ones. Personally I don't think ratings are such a bad thing, at least for parents with kids. So how are they going to rate the Internet? What is CCP going to do, put in a word filter in the client so that parents can block bad words? Hence the "online interactions not rated". --
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:13:00 - [101] Originally by: Lysianna Not sure about the rest of the world but... Americans are known for suing anything and everything they can. ItÆs safer for CCP to put a warning and disclaimer about the possible content of the game then getting suied by an angry mother that just saw her 10 year old son saved the damsel in distress or scamming people lol.. Even some packs of gums have do not swallow warnings. And this is precisely why the ESRB ratings are used by companies to restrict sales to people based on their age rather than just as an optional guideline for the consumer. There is absolutely no legal restriction preventing anyone from selling a T for Teen game to a toddler or a M for Mature game to a ten year old. However, there is also nothing stopping the average idiot parent from suing the game store for selling a game (legally) to their child. You can sue anyone at any time for any reason. You may not win, but you can waste their money and time and resources without justification. So, under that threat, the non-legally-binding voluntary ratings become -- essentially -- mandatory. And the sales of these games become unnecessarily restricted and corporations and store sales people become responsible for parenting of children rather than parents doing it (because it would be fine for a parent to refuse to let their kid buy a game based on a label, but isn't really the job of the store manager, of course). It's like a lot of other things in the world. Having a credit card is not technically mandatory, but try getting a good credit history without one. Then try getting a house or a car or a business loan without a good credit history. It is therefore, for all practical reasons, an obligation. Meh. --
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:44:00 - [102] Originally by: Tuttomenui II Incase your wondering, I dont buy alcohol for miners Probably a good idea, since they seem to operate a lot of heavy equipment and shouldn't be under the influence when they do. As for the ESRB warning CCP, all fair and good I suppose so carry on my darlings but if we're being warned about stuff then can we also see about getting the word filter relaxed a little on the forums? I'd like to be able to tell people that they're talking a load of *******s without them having to hit "quote" on my post to get around the filter and see what I've written about what they've said. After all, if they're in disagreement with me then they're probably wrong and possibly not very smart either so I'd like to make things easier for them since life clearly hasn't. Obviously I can't get them all breathing via their nostrils instead so I think saving them a few unnecessary extra mouse clicks seems charitable enough.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.20 22:15:00 - [103] Posting in a thread where Devs are quoting Devs and discussing Devly stuff with eachother. Anyway - why are you lingering on the login screen rather than getting into the game and running missions for me to salvage? BACK TO WORK SLAVE!!1
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 23:15:00 - [104] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja BACK TO WORK SLAVE!!1 I'm sorry, but slavery has been deemed a subject of such great maturity that inflicting the concept upon teenage children is too damaging to their development. --
Rilwar 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.01.20 23:30:00 - [105] Originally by: Qordel Who is the ESRB? You've never bought a videogame before?! The ESRB is a ratings organization that publishers voluntarily submit their games to. CCP tries to aim for a TEEN rating by ESRB, which means that the content is less mature than, say, Fable II, which is a Mature rated console game in which you can beat your kids, have sex, cheat on your wife, have a same-sex partner and beat your children. Is there something you wish to tell us? or the local police?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 23:32:00 - [106] Originally by: Rilwar Originally by: Qordel Who is the ESRB? You've never bought a videogame before?! The ESRB is a ratings organization that publishers voluntarily submit their games to. CCP tries to aim for a TEEN rating by ESRB, which means that the content is less mature than, say, Fable II, which is a Mature rated console game in which you can beat your kids, have sex, cheat on your wife, have a same-sex partner and beat your children. Is there something you wish to tell us? or the local police? No, I don't have any kids. Anymore...
ThrudUK Caldari The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2009.01.20 23:36:00 - [107] I confess... I've not read the whole thread so I apologise if this has been said. Do you think this rating will stop the whining when someone loses their internet spaceship to an ebil pirate?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 23:43:00 - [108] Originally by: ThrudUK I confess... I've not read the whole thread so I apologise if this has been said. Do you think this rating will stop the whining when someone loses their internet spaceship to an ebil pirate? Huh? In what way?! Please explain . . . ? --
medecau Gallente Super Bock Preta	Posted - 2009.01.20 23:43:00 - [109] Edited by: medecau on 20/01/2009 23:43:51 i am not sure if it was Zor or a gurista pilot, but i remember receiving a message on my coms channel of someone threatening to "sling" their "laser cannon up" my "ass". i had to kill him... true words taken from in game.
Kaahles n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:01:00 - [110] Originally by: Adaris I don't recognise the authority of this ESRB organisation. sighs, how great it is to be European. Oh crap.... we've got PEGI instead. ;( Yeah... but if you live in Germany PEGI has no meaning since we got the USK which is... yeah somewhat stupid. I mean developers/publisher have to cut games in order to get a rating over all even if the game is an intended 18+ title. That's just ridiculous (in addition to a way over sized logos on the package which ruins the look of the box completly... imports ftw )
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:04:00 - [111] Originally by: Kaahles Originally by: Adaris I don't recognise the authority of this ESRB organisation. sighs, how great it is to be European. Oh crap.... we've got PEGI instead. ;( Yeah... but if you live in Germany PEGI has no meaning since we got the USK which is... yeah somewhat stupid. I mean developers/publisher have to cut games in order to get a rating over all even if the game is an intended 18+ title. That's just ridiculous (in addition to a way over sized logos on the package which ruins the look of the box completly... imports ftw ) They cut the entire "arming and exploding the atomic bomb in town" thing from Fallout 3, which was a very significant and primary moral dilemma and choice in the game. Just in the Japanese version, mind you. I can understand why something like that may be done, but of course, it's kind of silly when you're stuck thinking "why do I pay full price to get different/changed/less content than another country?" And it's not like the people themselves agreed with it. A lot of Japanese players were disgruntled at it being removed. Sadly, countries tend to cater to busy-bodies and favor censorship.
Haral Reimo	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:24:00 - [112] Originally by: CCP Explorer EVE Online is both ESRB and PEGI rated How did you manage to get a Teen rating in a game where you can buy hookers, booze and drugs by the cubic meter? Not to mention that after an intoxicated flight of debauchery you can then jettison the helpless women of ill-repute into the cold depths of space, before obliterating them with bullets the size of a small car! Compared to that, GTA is quite mild
Kaahles n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:27:00 - [113] Originally by: Haral Reimo Originally by: CCP Explorer EVE Online is both ESRB and PEGI rated How did you manage to get a Teen rating in a game where you can buy hookers, booze and drugs by the cubic meter? Not to mention that after an intoxicated flight of debauchery you can then jettison the helpless women of ill-repute into the cold depths of space, before obliterating them with bullets the size of a small car! Compared to that, GTA is quite mild shhh... don't give them ideas

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