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Why are the Caldari seen as "honorable"?

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YuuKnow 200	Posted - 2012.04.18 01:54:00 - [1] - Quote Why are the Caldari seen as a honorable? Isn't the entire faction governed my mega corporations? When has being a pawn of a megacorporation ever been "honorable?" That's like Wal-mart employees claiming they are honorable for working at Walmart. Or even worse, Exxon would claim its employees are "noble". Doesn't fit. Caldari as cut-throat, ruthlessly competatitive capitalist... yes. But noble and honorable.... no. That would better fit with the Minmatar.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 384	Posted - 2012.04.18 07:33:00 - [2] - Quote Because Caldari corporate culture is an extension of Japanese and not American or other westerner. Read more about here and here. As a recent discussion on Backstage about Matari tribalism showed (here) the Matari is far from a unified mass and while honor is likely important within the family/closets tribe it most certainly does not extend to a national level. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 450	Posted - 2012.04.18 12:30:00 - [3] - Quote Because PF says they are. Don't equate EVE to RL. The two are separated by 20,000 years and several dark ages. BTW, Minmater are honorable too, not just Caldari.
YuuKnow 203	Posted - 2012.04.18 12:36:00 - [4] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: Because Caldari corporate culture is an extension of Japanese and not American or other westerner. Read more about here and here. As a recent discussion on Backstage about Matari tribalism showed (here) the Matari is far from a unified mass and while honor is likely important within the family/closets tribe it most certainly does not extend to a national level. I guess if Sony and Toyota had a Navy they would claim them to be honorable too... Still honor and ultra-capitalism don't really fit.
Simca Develon Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 20	Posted - 2012.04.18 12:37:00 - [5] - Quote Caldari are both. The cut throat side of things exists, but is usually a bit less prominent in most dealings within and outside of the State. They are ruthless and competitive, but they are also honorable in most all of their social interactions. Especially with outsiders. Je suis le commencement de votre fin.
YuuKnow 203	Posted - 2012.04.18 12:39:00 - [6] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: Because PF says they are. Don't equate EVE to RL. The two are separated by 20,000 years and several dark ages. BTW, Minmater are honorable too, not just Caldari. Even if its the future, history tells us that human nature doesn't change. yk
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 450	Posted - 2012.04.18 12:49:00 - [7] - Quote YuuKnow wrote: Katrina Oniseki wrote: Because PF says they are. Don't equate EVE to RL. The two are separated by 20,000 years and several dark ages. BTW, Minmater are honorable too, not just Caldari. Even if its the future, history tells us that human nature doesn't change. yk Nobody said they don't have dishonorable urges, actions, or habits due to human nature, but the prevailing culture of the Caldari counteracts that. The Caldari culture demands a strong sense of personal and collective honor and dignity, and though human nature might obviously create situations where that is not the case, the prevailing trend is one of honorable behavior. Prime Fiction clearly states the Caldari are a very honor-centric people. Whatever you suggest why that might be otherwise is irrelevant because it's already been decided by CCP lore this is how it is. Something to consider is that your American (or whatever culture you're from) idea of honorable is not necessarily the same as that of a culture so far in the future and clearly different from anything existing today. There is no pure meritocratic state in RL, so there is no fair comparison. Consider the culture difference between you and what a Caldari would be. Something honorable to them may be abhorrent to you and your culture.
Khergit Deserters Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.04.18 14:04:00 - [8] - Quote Because they wear Captain Kirk shirts?
Wyke Mossari Staner Industries 191	Posted - 2012.04.18 17:04:00 - [9] - Quote YuuKnow wrote: Why are the Caldari seen as a honorable? I don't think the Caldari are in general particularly honourable, aside from a few obvious exceptions. Deteis are described as "cunning and underhanded" the antithesis of honourable. Achur are described as "master of disguising his own emotions" and "Compassion is not alien to him, but .." which doesn't sound very honourable to me. Certainly under Heth is proven absolutely dishonourable. I think the issue is some players projecting their own Cultural Assumptions on to the Caldari.
Simca Develon Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 20	Posted - 2012.04.18 19:03:00 - [10] - Quote Wyke Mossari wrote: YuuKnow wrote: Why are the Caldari seen as a honorable? I don't think the Caldari are in general particularly honourable, aside from a few obvious exceptions. Deteis are described as "cunning and underhanded" the antithesis of honourable. Achur are described as "master of disguising his own emotions" and "Compassion is not alien to him, but .." which doesn't sound very honourable to me. Certainly under Heth is proven absolutely dishonourable. I think the issue is some players projecting their own Cultural Assumptions on to the Caldari. Think less "I'm an honorable man." and more "I have my honor to uphold." Caldari society is based on putting the needs of the many(in this case one's parent corporation and the State itself) before your own. To them that is not only honorable, but expected. In Caldari business with a few exceptions I'm pretty sure anything goes. You can be as underhanded, sneaky, and agressive as you want. BUT if you get caught you dishonor yourself, your family, and your corporation. Tha Caldari are a very proud race(more specific to the Civire and Deteis than the Achura). Within that pride is a sense of honor or dignity that goes back to the first Cal-Gal war when they basically told the Gallente that they would not be told how to be Caldari. Je suis le commencement de votre fin.

Roga Dracor Fury Lords 92	Posted - 2012.04.18 20:14:00 - [11] - Quote Honor in this instance is better referred to as "Face".. A Caldari true to his race would likely lose this personal "honor" for the greater "honor" of his Corporation and State.. I.E. He would sacrifice his own "face" to save the greater "face" of the Caldari people, perhaps at the cost of his own life and chances in the next life.. Such would earn him a different kind of "honor" amongst his people.. There are layers to Caldari "honor"..
Lucius Vindictus East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate 68	Posted - 2012.04.19 20:59:00 - [12] - Quote I don't see why honor and capitalism would be mutually exclusive. RL or in fiction... why can't an employee of a corporation be honorable? Why can't a corporation itself be honorable? And why is it that a tribal society should be more or less honorable than any other social group?
Silas Vitalia Nobilta Nera 239	Posted - 2012.04.21 20:37:00 - [13] - Quote Without a heredity-driven culture for wealth and status, and one derived on meritocracy and -performance-, it makes sense for honor to be a cherished value. Business relationships and partnerships require a lot of risk, and your reputation, and that of your corporation, are paramount to all things. Making your parent company succeed means making yourself and your family and all of your friends succeed. Being honorable and one that can be counted on to act a certain way is extremely valuable for that society. Unlike say Amarr, where there are a multitude of hereditary and racial avenues to success and they can skate around some of those specific issues a bit differently .
Khergit Deserters Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2012.04.23 18:07:00 - [14] - Quote Lucius Vindictus wrote: I don't see why honor and capitalism would be mutually exclusive. RL or in fiction... why can't an employee of a corporation be honorable? Why can't a corporation itself be honorable? And why is it that a tribal society should be more or less honorable than any other social group? I think capitalism (the business world in general) and honor are pretty much mutually exclusive. If one has honor, he will sometimes forsake personal gain, if receiving that gain would be at the cost of compromising his own principles. In the business world, anyone doing that is handicapping himself. He's playing by a self-restricting set of rules that his competitors aren't playing by. Eventually, in an absolutely free market, his competitors should become richer than him, and acquire more capital (and therefore more discretionary power to use) than him. If he's an individual, he might just be poorer than his competitors throughout his career. If it's a perpetual-life corporation, mathematically it's self-restrictions (inefficiencies) should eventually drive it out of the market. Note that a businessperson or corporation may be absolutely non-honorable, but may still be trustworthy. Honor and trustworthiness are different concepts. A business entity can selectively manage its reputation for trustworthiness as a business strategy. But it's not sacrificing anything to maintain a set of honorable principles. It is just managing reputation as another tool for maximizing gain. Pure pragmatism, nothing honorable about it.
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 57	Posted - 2012.04.23 18:37:00 - [15] - Quote The Gallente Federation drove the Caldari from them their home bombing their civilian cities because the Caldari said they didn't agree with Federation Philosophy.
YuuKnow 310	Posted - 2012.04.23 23:01:00 - [16] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: Nobody said they don't have dishonorable urges, actions, or habits due to human nature, but the prevailing culture of the Caldari counteracts that. The Caldari culture demands a strong sense of personal and collective honor and dignity, and though human nature might obviously create situations where that is not the case, the prevailing trend is one of honorable behavior. Prime Fiction clearly states the Caldari are a very honor-centric people. Whatever you suggest why that might be otherwise is irrelevant because it's already been decided by CCP lore this is how it is. Something to consider is that your American (or whatever culture you're from) idea of honorable is not necessarily the same as that of a culture so far in the future and clearly different from anything existing today. There is no pure meritocratic state in RL, so there is no fair comparison. Consider the culture difference between you and what a Caldari would be. Something honorable to them may be abhorrent to you and your culture. I guess the Caldari would consider themselves 'honorable' for attacking Nouvelle Rouvenor too then? That was basically a terrorist attack on a 500mil innocent civillians so that would put the honorable society that the Caldari claim similar to the honorable society terrorist groups claim (Im sure Al Queda claims a society that claims 'a strong sense of personal and collective honor and dignity' too). That or the proposed lore is all a farce. yk
Roga Dracor Fury Lords 95	Posted - 2012.04.24 03:42:00 - [17] - Quote Indeed, we Caldari might have felt honor bound to show the Gallente that we would not be cowed into a cultural silence, or accept a cultural norm that was ABHORENT to us. The Gallente consume and stifle any culture that does not accept the false claim that all men are equally capable of making judgement calls on any disparate subject. While we might accept the idea that all men are created equal, but unique, how they choose to compose and develop those qualities they possess inherently is far from equal. A man should learn his place in the world and fill it diligently!
Axel Kurki Aseyakone 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:40:00 - [18] - Quote I wrote a post but the forums ate it. In any case, I assume that the Caldari honour is a combination of the "honourable" stereotypes about the Japanese (organization, bushido, etc.) and the Finns (honesty). Then there is the concepts of "them" and "us", where acting honourable towards your own group's goals might require being dishonest to another group (salesmen, for example, might be an example of this). Then there are people who just don't fit in. And finally, EVE is a dystopia. The focus isn't on the hard-working father of three who strives to keep his family fed. The main character is the slimy guy who seduced the worker's wife, stole the family's savings and ran away with the enslaved kids. Similar stereotypes and their complete opposites exist for every EVE main faction. Amarr couldn't care less about their God, but the Scripture gives a load of good excuses to go enslave people once you twist the words long enough. All Gallentean senators are actually working for some megacorporation, assuming they are working in the first place and not vacationing in a whorehouse in the Syndicate. Minmatar are violent racists who care about slaves just as long as the slave is Minmatar. Not that part of them wouldn't be willing to sell their grannies back to the Amarrians, assuming they have enough time for that for all the drug-running.
Jandice Ymladris Perkone Caldari State 17	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:59:00 - [19] - Quote As pointed out above, think people compare the Caldari megacorps too much with our late 20th century companies. rather think of the old 19th century companies, where they builded rentalhouses for their employees (shabby ones, but still houses!) maintained corprun stores & bars, making sure the loans payed would return to the corporation. In effect, the large companies of the 19th century(early 20th as well) had the full cycle done, all money paid to employees eventually returned to them by rent &shops & recreation(bar).
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 455	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:25:00 - [20] - Quote YuuKnow wrote: I guess the Caldari would consider themselves 'honorable' for attacking Nouvelle Rouvenor too then? That was basically a terrorist attack on a 500mil innocent civillians so that would put the honorable society that the Caldari claim similar to the honorable society terrorist groups claim (Im sure Al Queda claims a society that claims 'a strong sense of personal and collective honor and dignity' too). That or the proposed lore is all a farce. yk You're judging an entire culture and civilization based off the actions of a few extreme radicals and terrorists? Congratulations. You're an idiot.

Evet Morrel Kadavr Black Guard Shadow Cartel 27	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:25:00 - [21] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: YuuKnow wrote: I guess the Caldari would consider themselves 'honorable' for attacking Nouvelle Rouvenor too then? That was basically a terrorist attack on a 500mil innocent civillians so that would put the honorable society that the Caldari claim similar to the honorable society terrorist groups claim (Im sure Al Queda claims a society that claims 'a strong sense of personal and collective honor and dignity' too). That or the proposed lore is all a farce. yk You're judging an entire culture and civilization based off the actions of a few extreme radicals and terrorists? Congratulations. You're an idiot. Excuse me Katrina, youGÇÖre clearly not a stupid person but are we not debating generalities, call foul if you like, call racism if you must but isnGÇÖt this question framed in such a way as to make this inevitable and complaints specious. Perhaps you might address the underlying issue in an enlightened manner rather than engage in name calling. The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor killed half a million innocent people, was that state sponsored terrorism or something else? How about Tovil-Toba killing three million innocent inhabitants in Hueromont when he ordered his carrier down, what was the justification there? I personally agree with Khergit Deserters lucid contribution, in large free markets where social relations are abstract and anonymous thereGÇÖs little incentive to be honorable. So, the perception that the caldari are honorable must to my mind be largely attributed to their deplorable fashion sense.
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 462	Posted - 2012.04.30 02:27:00 - [22] - Quote Evet Morrel wrote: Excuse me Katrina, youGÇÖre clearly not a stupid person but are we not debating generalities, call foul if you like, call racism if you must but isnGÇÖt this question framed in such a way as to make this inevitable and complaints specious. Perhaps you might address the underlying issue in an enlightened manner rather than engage in name calling. The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor killed half a million innocent people, was that state sponsored terrorism or something else? How about Tovil-Toba killing three million innocent inhabitants in Hueromont when he ordered his carrier down, what was the justification there? I personally agree with Khergit Deserters lucid contribution, in large free markets where social relations are abstract and anonymous thereGÇÖs little incentive to be honorable. So, the perception that the caldari are honorable must to my mind be largely attributed to their deplorable fashion sense. I'll address your concern about name-calling by simply saying EVE-O trolling is contagious. I caught the bug, and coughed on someone else. Besides, his statement was ridiculous, which brings me to your second point. The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor was committed by the Templis Dragonaurs (unsure of spelling), a known anti-Gallente (by an extremely racist definition of the term) terrorist group. This group is outlawed at the highest level by the Caldari State. Excluding underhanded dealings by corrupt officials (which would be pure speculation anyways, since there is no PF mention of it), the State did not sponsor that attack. In fact, the State did not even exist at that point in time. This can be taken into all sorts of conjecture and speculation, but it's quite clearly stated in PF that the attack on the underwater city of Nouvelle Rouvenor was comitted by terrorists who were and are to this day outlaws. Tovil-Toba is a different fish altogether. What he did is in fact an example of the highest displays of honor ever seen in Caldari history. Ever. To the Caldari people, Tovil-Toba is a national hero. If you disagree with this viewpoint, I'm afraid nothing I can say will convince you they are honorable, because you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding their culture. His justification for ordering his carrier into the atmosphere of Gallente Prime was a rather obvious 'kamikaze' example. While I hate to compare EVE to the real world, in this case it's pretty cut and dry. Tovil-Toba steered his failing warship into the most militarily and economically sensitive target of the entire Federation - the homeworld. It should be noted that you can't exactly aim something as big as a Chimera at a specific city. It broke up in the upper atmosphere and was then subject to dynamic forces which spread the wreckage across half the continent. It just so happened that one of the larger pieces airburst over the city, wiping out a major population center. Was this intentional? It might have been hoped that his sacrifice would have some major impact, but I would doubt his intention was to wipe out millions of innocent civilians. Even if it was, I suppose it could be considered a case of eye-for-an-eye, or revenge killing for the wanton orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime. Again, this would likely fit in with the Caldari mindset. Whether you see Tovil-Toba's sacrifice as honorable or not is up to you, but the Caldari people by an overwhelming majority consider him their national hero. If you consider him otherwise, then I'm afraid you're simply subject to an ethnocentric opinion. Also, for the record, my posting on this forum is not In Character. I am always Out Of Character in EVE Fiction forums. EDIT: Oh, and I enjoyed reading your interview story. Have you posted any others lately?
Evet Morrel Kadavr Black Guard Shadow Cartel 27	Posted - 2012.04.30 12:34:00 - [23] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: I'll address your concern about name-calling by simply saying EVE-O trolling is contagious. I caught the bug, and coughed on someone else. Besides, his statement was ridiculous, which brings me to your second point. The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor was committed by the Templis Dragonaurs (unsure of spelling), a known anti-Gallente (by an extremely racist definition of the term) terrorist group. This group is outlawed at the highest level by the Caldari State. Excluding underhanded dealings by corrupt officials (which would be pure speculation anyways, since there is no PF mention of it), the State did not sponsor that attack. In fact, the State did not even exist at that point in time. This can be taken into all sorts of conjecture and speculation, but it's quite clearly stated in PF that the attack on the underwater city of Nouvelle Rouvenor was comitted by terrorists who were and are to this day outlaws. Tovil-Toba is a different fish altogether. What he did is in fact an example of the highest displays of honor ever seen in Caldari history. Ever. To the Caldari people, Tovil-Toba is a national hero. If you disagree with this viewpoint, I'm afraid nothing I can say will convince you they are honorable, because you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding their culture. His justification for ordering his carrier into the atmosphere of Gallente Prime was a rather obvious 'kamikaze' example. While I hate to compare EVE to the real world, in this case it's pretty cut and dry. Tovil-Toba steered his failing warship into the most militarily and economically sensitive target of the entire Federation - the homeworld. It should be noted that you can't exactly aim something as big as a Chimera at a specific city. It broke up in the upper atmosphere and was then subject to dynamic forces which spread the wreckage across half the continent. It just so happened that one of the larger pieces airburst over the city, wiping out a major population center. Was this intentional? It might have been hoped that his sacrifice would have some major impact, but I would doubt his intention was to wipe out millions of innocent civilians. Even if it was, I suppose it could be considered a case of eye-for-an-eye, or revenge killing for the wanton orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime. Again, this would likely fit in with the Caldari mindset. Whether you see Tovil-Toba's sacrifice as honorable or not is up to you, but the Caldari people by an overwhelming majority consider him their national hero. If you consider him otherwise, then I'm afraid you're simply subject to an ethnocentric opinion. Also, for the record, my posting on this forum is not In Character. I am always Out Of Character in EVE Fiction forums. EDIT: Oh, and I enjoyed reading your interview story. Have you posted any others lately? Ties between the establishment and this group are likely closer than your statement suggests. ItGÇÖs useful to have agent provocateurs that you can disavow as terrorists, modern history is rife with examples particularly at the end of the colonialist era when an emerging state needs to GÇÿmanageGÇÖ how it is seen by the international community. Although, IGÇÖll avoid giving specifics, which might get very political very quickly. My glib statement about Caldari fashion, is not entirely facetious. Societies that have little regard for the individual tend to be highly normative, affirming how things should or ought to be, and how they must be valued. Psychologist Silvan Tomkins researched the various ways affect promulgates this interpersonally through society. Affect such as disgust, embarrassment and shame. These can be transmitted through immediate facial reactions that people have to a stimulus, typically well before they could process any real response to the stimulus. Like the Vogon, my personal brain care specialist is always saying GÇ£zee channeling of aggressive impulses into acts of senseless vitriol, I shink zis is perfectly normal behaviour for a capsuleer.GÇ¥ I also must own the troll within. Anyway thanks for the compliment, youGÇÖre quite right IGÇÖve been posting in character, oops. I had written a final bit of the GÇÿinterviewGÇÖ, happily I have just the right amount of time to write a paragraph in my commute - and usually can read and then steal something from the paper at the same time. I want it to end with the Galentee interrogators blowing EvetGÇÖs head off. I thought thatGÇÖd be a crowd pleaser, she is so damn ernest isnGÇÖt she! My fear is that, my new genre: Porno Political Polemic, or Sado-Satirical Slash while wildly fun to write, combining, as it does, my two great loves was not actually that fun to read. As some writer said , I forget who, if youGÇÖre really enjoying yourself your readers probably arenGÇÖt. Thanks again so much, if you like my stories I have rewritten Crew, and harshly edited it. I now think itGÇÖs much better, IGÇÖm an endless tinkerer IGÇÖm afraid. GÇÿCrewGÇÖ unfinished However, IGÇÖm still proud of these two though, the first I wrote to interest my first corp in 2009 ... GÇÿEmbarcationGÇÖ and the second one because they liked the first :) GÇÿRecruitementGÇÖ
Morwen Lagann Tyrathlion Interstellar 131	Posted - 2012.04.30 15:31:00 - [24] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor was committed by the Templis Dragonaurs (unsure of spelling), a known anti-Gallente (by an extremely racist definition of the term) terrorist group. This group is outlawed at the highest level by the Caldari State. I always found this amusing, given that Tibus Heth is (or at least, was at one point) a member of the Templis Dragonaurs, according to some parts of the Empyrean Age novel. His affiliation was never proved publicly lore-wise though. :( (I'll look for the excerpt when I get home - if I can find my copy of the novel, that is. It's probably buried under other books in a box that hasn't been opened since I graduated last spring. xD)
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 466	Posted - 2012.05.01 19:03:00 - [25] - Quote Morwen Lagann wrote: Katrina Oniseki wrote: The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor was committed by the Templis Dragonaurs (unsure of spelling), a known anti-Gallente (by an extremely racist definition of the term) terrorist group. This group is outlawed at the highest level by the Caldari State. I always found this amusing, given that Tibus Heth is (or at least, was at one point) a member of the Templis Dragonaurs, according to some parts of the Empyrean Age novel. His affiliation was never proved publicly lore-wise though. :( (I'll look for the excerpt when I get home - if I can find my copy of the novel, that is. It's probably buried under other books in a box that hasn't been opened since I graduated last spring. xD) It's always bothered me that we can't call out Tibus Heth as a racist terrorist IC because of that. I can hope though. :(
Wyke Mossari Staner Industries 235	Posted - 2012.05.01 19:35:00 - [26] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: Morwen Lagann wrote: Katrina Oniseki wrote: The sabotaging of the dome at Nouvelle Rouvenor was committed by the Templis Dragonaurs (unsure of spelling), a known anti-Gallente (by an extremely racist definition of the term) terrorist group. This group is outlawed at the highest level by the Caldari State. I always found this amusing, given that Tibus Heth is (or at least, was at one point) a member of the Templis Dragonaurs, according to some parts of the Empyrean Age novel. His affiliation was never proved publicly lore-wise though. :( (I'll look for the excerpt when I get home - if I can find my copy of the novel, that is. It's probably buried under other books in a box that hasn't been opened since I graduated last spring. xD) It's always bothered me that we can't call out Tibus Heth as a racist terrorist IC because of that. I can hope though. :( I agree, we see a lot of scandal in backgrounds of many key figures, Roden's Serpentis connection is another. These kind of details could easily be introduce into IC lore by ISD through investigative journalist's "press releases". A sort of official ISD version of Muck Raker. Scandalous news stories and allegations with little hard evidence but that characters can choose to believe as true or just regard as scurrilous slurs.
Horatius Caul Kitzless 57	Posted - 2012.05.02 09:57:00 - [27] - Quote There are many different kinds of honour.To describe a society as honourable is not necessarily a compliment. Amarrad - Amarr language project
Astrid Stjerna Underking Family 663	Posted - 2012.05.08 12:25:00 - [28] - Quote YuuKnow wrote: Why are the Caldari seen as a honorable? Isn't the entire faction governed my mega corporations? When has being a pawn of a megacorporation ever been "honorable?" That's like Wal-mart employees claiming they are honorable for working at Walmart. Or even worse, Exxon would claim its employees are "noble". Doesn't fit. Caldari as cut-throat, ruthlessly competatitive capitalist... yes. But noble and honorable.... no. That would better fit with the Minmatar. According to PF, everything in Caldari society is about the corporation. Corporations are big on contracts: you sign the papers and you are legally bound to honor the terms. Break a contract, and you could get fired (which means that you're essentially unemployable, and you're probably going to starve to death). Given the above consequinces, it's pretty clear that a Caldari will not give his word (ie, sign a verbal contract) unless he is absolutely certain he can hold up his end of the deal. It also means that once a Caldari gives his word, it'll be a cold day in hell before you can convince him to break it. So, noble? Perhaps not so much in the world of cutthroat corporate competition. But honorable? Heck, yeah. I can't get rid of my darn signature!-á Oh, wait....
Evet Morrel Kadavr Black Guard Shadow Cartel 30	Posted - 2012.05.08 18:37:00 - [29] - Quote Ok IGÇÖll put aside oblique finger pointing at leadership, but I will point out that it 'is' described as: GÇ£Caldari partisans [who] sabotaged the glass dome of the Gallente-inhabited underwater city Nouvelle RouvenorGÇ¥ here http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Early_Days_(Chronicle) GÇ£characters can choose to believe [it] as true or just regard as scurrilous slursGÇ¥ I guess they can choose to, most capsuleers do just that. ItGÇÖs an entirely understandable disposition considering the medium. ItGÇÖs an aesthetic choice. Truth is beauty, and beauty truth, and if itGÇÖs not beautiful how can it be true, the good must end happily and the bad unhappily thatGÇÖs the definition of fiction, isnGÇÖt it! Anyway I probably wouldn't have written any of that but then I read Astrid StjernaGÇÖs bit, incorrect without being wrong. For Astrid to link reputation with honour is exactly right in my view. However, because the point of a contract is to make obligations legally enforceable - so that you can take action backed by the state if and when an agreement breaks down - it provides for the parties having no honour. For example in Japan, (I think Japan was mentioned as particularly honorable above anyway in Japan) contracts symbolises the formation of a working relationship they are not legal binding. There is of course a morality expressed in this idea but its utterly skeptical and immoral. A contract like its cousin doesnGÇÖt provide flexibility nor for what may be the morally right way to act, force majeure is its human face. In short the contract is what you have instead of honor and honour is what you have if you are immoral. This is why certain religious denominations refuse to make promises or give guarantees believing it to unethical or immoral.
Duvida The Scope Gallente Federation 70	Posted - 2012.05.12 18:15:00 - [30] - Quote The past does have an effect on judgements for the present and future, but I would wonder if Tibus Heth's move to seize Caldari Prime and hold it doesn't serve a secondary purpose of keeping the Gallente attentive and close to the Caldari in case of problems with Amarr. One never knows when the next Reclaiming might be, and it may be that the Minmatar nation forms a much less desirable target now that there are ... alternatives.



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