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Long term idea to improve data base performance... deleteing inactive

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Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 00:21:00 - [1] Edited by: Dasfry on 20/01/2009 00:23:59 Long term idea to improve data base performance... deleteing inactive Hi, There are a ton of characters that no longer play eve. period. and... They still take up data base resources. They still take possible names away from new players They still give corporation's false active numbers They still give alliance's false active numbers They do not generate money for CCP They do slow down data base call's as it has more data to sift through Solution... Delete inactive accounts that haven't paid their subscription after x period of time... that x period in my opinion could be 1 to 2 years. I mean if u haven't paid your account in 2 years, your skills aren't improving in 2 years either. And more often then not you either started a new account or quit. Why not free up the resources? This would work just like the way space cans right now have a 30 day timer. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2009.01.20 00:33:00 - [2] You're gonna find a lot of folks either totally FOR or totally AGAINST this idea. But I kinda get the feeling that CCP might be thinking along these lines anyways. They just recently sent out a lot of emails to folks with inactive accounts, to see if anyone wanted to come back. I'd wager they'll start deleting the oldest of those that didn't respond at all. This kind of thing has been talked about before... usually when it comes to character or corp names already being taken but never used. --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST"
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp	Posted - 2009.01.20 01:36:00 - [3] i would be for this deletion, as long as we talk of two years. the investment some of these characters have is too big to jus thtrow away without warning, but i agree, they clog the database. so, two years, no reactivation? DELETE
Tai Paktu Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.01.20 02:22:00 - [4] I'm fairly sure if you went on EvE Search, you could find a Dev awhile back saying "we will never delete inactive accounts." I'm just too lazy to find and link it, but I seem to remember hearing it. And really, why would they? There's always the possibility the person will resubscribe and there's no way of telling if they will or won't. I know people who emoragequit saying they'll never be back to EvE every two months. So, no go from me.
Syberbolt8 Gallente Gen Tec Arcos Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 04:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Tai Paktu I'm fairly sure if you went on EvE Search, you could find a Dev awhile back saying "we will never delete inactive accounts." I'm just too lazy to find and link it, but I seem to remember hearing it. And really, why would they? There's always the possibility the person will resubscribe and there's no way of telling if they will or won't. I know people who emoragequit saying they'll never be back to EvE every two months. So, no go from me. They never said never, a dev, like you im to lazy to look it up, said there is a 6 month window, and that after 6 months they reserve the right to remove your account. However, they said to date they have never removed an account, and that even if they did, it would hardly effect the DB at all, and wouldn't improve the server speed in any meaning full ammount.
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 05:56:00 - [6] dude... if your girlfriend's been gone for over 2 years, she's probably not coming back. throw away all the reminders of her and get yourself a new girlfriend. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Minnie Warp	Posted - 2009.01.20 06:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Minnie Warp on 20/01/2009 06:44:36 Originally by: Dasfry dude... if your girlfriend's been gone for over 2 years, she's probably not coming back. throw away all the reminders of her and get yourself a new girlfriend. Dude... your comparison is lame... CCP has a lot of "girlfriends" and still wants a lot... if there is the slightest chance of a comeback, why alienating the playerbase? EVE is a long-term game. People tend to have problems in RL. Some might take a break of some months, even a year or more (army duty, etc.) - that's why I guess they don't want to mess with older inactive chars. I'd say otherwise: if CCP sees an old char under 1,5 mil SP AND it has been inactive for more than 2 years they may delete it. Higher SP chars means there's a chance of a comeback, while lesser periods of inactivity usually mean RL problems. At most, CCP might throw the offer of giving an ISK amount at any new char start in case of a renewing account whose chars have been deleted.
corElement hirr	Posted - 2009.01.20 06:46:00 - [8] delete any toon with under 1.2 mil sp becaue new toons come with that much sp
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu	Posted - 2009.01.20 06:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Dasfry Edited by: Dasfry on 20/01/2009 00:23:59 Long term idea to improve data base performance... deleteing inactive Hi, There are a ton of characters that no longer play eve. period. and... They still take up data base resources. They still take possible names away from new players They still give corporation's false active numbers They still give alliance's false active numbers They do not generate money for CCP They do slow down data base call's as it has more data to sift through Solution... Delete inactive accounts that haven't paid their subscription after x period of time... that x period in my opinion could be 1 to 2 years. I mean if u haven't paid your account in 2 years, your skills aren't improving in 2 years either. And more often then not you either started a new account or quit. Why not free up the resources? This would work just like the way space cans right now have a 30 day timer. Personally i've never run across a game that specifically deleted your character after a set time, however most MMO's i've come across usually say that after a certain amount of time they'll reserve the right to delete your character.. or no longer maintain it in the database anyways. However, this wouldnt really be an issue with database calls, i would assume any inactive accounts would be set into storage where information would have to actively be sifted through unless someone was reactivating. I've no idea why anyone would store inactive characters with active ones for the database calls, so its unlikely this would have an effect on the database whatsoever. As for character names, i can understand that to a certain degree, but then, unless you've been watching your buddy list 23/7 for the past couple of years for that guy with the name that you want to log in to prove if he's active or not, you're not going to know, making it a moot point. Whats the issue with fake active numbers... alt accounts technically do the same thing... its relatively common knowledge to take into account inactive/alt accounts in a corporation, so they look like they have 100 members instead of the actual 60 active... so what? that really shouldnt make a difference unless you're wardeccing them.. and if you're wardeccing them and thats a concern of yours then its obviously because you're doing it for the griefing and not any particular purpose. Hell they may even be characters specifically reserved for wars... dont play with em until they're needed to buff the numbers, everyone has their tactics. As for not generating money... a player with an old character is more likely to come back to eve if that old char is still available to them... balancing the negligible database calls against increasing the chances of an older player coming back gives you a pretty obvious result.
corElement hirr	Posted - 2009.01.20 12:26:00 - [10] on second thought DONT DO WHAT I SAID BECAUSE BANK ALTS HAVE LESS THAN 1 mil sp and if they get deleted there goes BEEELIONS OF MY ISKIES

Ratchman	Posted - 2009.01.20 14:21:00 - [11] I'd say that deletion of old accounts would help reduce the size of the database, but at the same time, these characters to take so long to foster, that it would be harsh to delete them entirely. The safe option would be to back up the old data, so they can then remove it from the server, but keep a backup somewhere just in case it's ever needed again. Alternatively, the data file could be sent to the user, giving them a 'savegame' they can hold onto.
Reentro	Posted - 2009.01.20 18:34:00 - [12] without seeing the program-structure you can say nothing about speeding up something, maybe the database gets some milliseconds faster if you delete 80 000 chars but it sure has a fast index and the old character data only gets selected if someone opens the info of that char ingame, so there is no real benefit from deleting that data, as said before, you would just lock out customers who would come back later. If this would be an issue CCP would have solved it already
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.20 18:54:00 - [13] I'd like to see some statistics on what inactive characters do for lag before diving into deletion. My guess is that since they aren't active, and therefore affect the database in terms of changes almost not at all, it's virtually none. The only saving you're making is disk space, and not much at that. There's not even much of a speed increase, because good database designs don't search/update that much slower whether you have 10 records or 10 million. From what CCP have said, their database is heavily normalised and indexed. If you are going to delete accounts, then I'd propose 5-7 years inactivity, coupled with an email warning six months prior to deletion. EVE is a long-lived MMO and sometimes people do take long breaks. I know of several people who have taken breaks in the order of 2-3 years. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
shady trader	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:35:00 - [14] One of the Dev's has stated in the past that in active accounts have almost no impact on database performance, then this idea has been suggested before. Also removing them will cause problems with data that is linked to them like standings etc. The fact names are taken is a problem. However there are a several names that should never be reused as they are legends or play a part in eve history. The devs have stated that they are never likely to allow names to be reused anyway.Name reuse Scoll down till you see the dev response
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:12:00 - [15] Just one thing: quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_(computer_science) "We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil." Unknow about the real source but its more about the idea behind the statement. Most of you are currently trying to make such premature optimization because none of you have a clue if it impacts the performance to be worth looking at.
Smacko Thug State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.21 02:57:00 - [16] Originally by: shady trader One of the Dev's has stated in the past that in active accounts have almost no impact on database performance, then this idea has been suggested before. Also removing them will cause problems with data that is linked to them like standings etc. This. I believe the devs words were 'No noticable impact' or something along those lines
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.21 03:35:00 - [17] I doubt the OP cares about the speed improvement it might cause. It's more about getting access to names that have been taken on inactive alts for years. That said, I wouldn't mind if accounts inactive for over a year get deleted, with a timer so that each month that an account that was open and paid for for gives it another 2 or 3 months on the timer. EG 1 month account, closed a year ago, timer is 1 year 2 months. or 6 month account, closed a year ago, timer is 2 years. But meh, don't really care, devs have demonstrated they'll do what they want when they want and customer input is unwanted and unappreciated.
Crussoin	Posted - 2009.01.22 02:19:00 - [18] Why not just save them to a database that isn't accessed by the active game? An inactive character can then simply be copied back in if someone requests reactivation.
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.23 14:38:00 - [19] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I doubt the OP cares about the speed improvement it might cause. It's more about getting access to names that have been taken on inactive alts for years. That said, I wouldn't mind if accounts inactive for over a year get deleted, with a timer so that each month that an account that was open and paid for for gives it another 2 or 3 months on the timer. EG 1 month account, closed a year ago, timer is 1 year 2 months. or 6 month account, closed a year ago, timer is 2 years. But meh, don't really care, devs have demonstrated they'll do what they want when they want and customer input is unwanted and unappreciated. I do care about performance improvements
Scurvy Pestilential	Posted - 2009.01.23 14:45:00 - [20] Deleting old accounts is just a bad idea from a business point of view. There's no real need for it, and there always the chance an old player will return. I know at least one person who quit for a year then came back.

Caffeine Junkie Atomic Battle Penguins	Posted - 2009.01.23 15:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Caffeine Junkie on 23/01/2009 15:10:31 From my understanding of the way eve works, this would have at best very little and overall probably no effect at all on the database performance or gameplay. The players are inactive, therefore they are no in convos, being searched on, in local, logging in or anything else, so their data is not being accessed, preloaded, cached or slowing anything down. The only good thing would be it recycling some of the best char names which have been inactive for 4 years. --------------------------------- (c) CJ 2009
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 11:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Scurvy Pestilential Deleting old accounts is just a bad idea from a business point of view. There's no real need for it, and there always the chance an old player will return. I know at least one person who quit for a year then came back. Maybe the difficult part of this topic's argument is there is no data to backup for or against. Perhaps some research on the test server would solve this question. Would deleting old inactive accounts, effect performance? I know many of you have your theories, but practice and theory is rarely the same. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.02.05 12:36:00 - [23] Originally by: corElement delete any toon with under 1.2 mil sp becaue new toons come with that much sp This makes sense.. Deletion should be from any ingame representation only.. The actual account and the characters should still be possible to reactivate.. So semi agree on this one..
203 Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:05:00 - [24] Actualy, there is no clogging if the Database is designed well. If it isn't - optimize it.
UnseenChaos	Posted - 2009.02.07 09:40:00 - [25] Im not for deleting peoples accounts cause you never know when they may want to come back... I do know that trial accounts dont get deleted as I made a couple and the characters I made still show on search`s so perhaps trial accounts if not made active after 1 month need to be deleted.
WillageGirl Advanced Tactics and Maneuvers	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:58:00 - [26] Edited by: WillageGirl on 07/02/2009 14:59:39 There is no real reason for deleting any accounts, ever. They can just be transfered into storage Database so they wont be slowing active database parts. All it takes is some extra disk space (God knows its cheap) and procedure to move inactive accounts back to active database portion when reactivated. When it comes to character and corporation names, that part of game has always screamed for some tweaking. By the looks of it CCP has also realized this and are working out new mechanics to remedy the situation. As some players might have noticed, we already got close corporation option, which Im sure, is just a begining. Fighting for Our right to Cloak since 2004
Alejan Gerakh	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:22:00 - [27] I think I have to agree with the people saying it probably would be an imperceptible impact. And, if anything, if there would be a benefit, then the database itself needs to be optimized because that's why it would make enough of an impact, and accounts don't need to be deleted. However, I would say that names of characters under a certain SP limit and over a certain number of months or years inactive should be made available for those who want them. This is a system enacted in other games, as well. I remember when I used to play CoH/V, there was announcement that they would start making characters potentially deletable if they were under a certain level limit (like 6 or 7) and the account in question had been inactive, but they would only be deleted if the character name was requested by another player for their own characters.
Aya Sin	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:27:00 - [28] What's the average lookuptime in a database ? log(n)? I'd guess that it's pretty much inconsequential to leave all those dead accounts in the DB. Another thing I'd guess is that moving them out of the DB into another isn't as easy as you might think: A "character" is most likely spread over multiple tables in the DB. What's worse, it probably contains lots of references to other characters (mail, market, logs, ....) so that if you delete/move a char, it might affect other chars. Imo not a good idea as it would require lots of testing to be sure that other characters are not being corrupted. It also doesn't provide any noticible improvements to the game.
Elysarian Minmatar dudetruck corp	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:30:00 - [29] I can see from the posts preceding mine that not one person posting on this thread has a first clue about how databases work. Deleting inactives would have zero effect on lookup times. You know why? Because a properly organised (read: optimised) SQL database has the most frequently accessed records placed at the "top" (kinda like defragmenting your HDD) - meaning all those inactive records in all tables get bumped down the "list". You know that thing that happens at 1100 GMT every day that we call "downtime"? Database optimisation is part of what's done in that timeslot. TL/DR? - Deletion of old records is unnecessary unless you're running out of disk space (I really doubt CCP would let that happen, just plug another drive into the array during downtime or use extended DT to move the database to a bigger NAS device) - and don't argue about how databases work unless you're a DBA or similar!
Aya Sin	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Elysarian You know why? Yes, because you know less than you think you do. Who cares about minor implementation optimizations when it's the base algorithm that really makes the difference? The important fact is that doubling the number of database entries will not double the time it takes to do "something" with it. Usually this factor is round about log n, which already means that no matter how fast this community grows, it could never ever keep up with the regular hardware upgrades CCP has to make once in a while to the entire cluster. I already said as much in the post above yours



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