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Nif Makria
Caldari
Eve Engineering Finance
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Posted - 2009.01.20 22:42:00 -
[1]
Ive been following the markets in JITA for several weeks now... and I notice that some items have say a buy/sell difference of 2million profit(minus taxes) per 1 unit.
As usual the 0.01isk battle goes on then someone comes in and makes a 500,000isk price change - so everyone then follows and plays the 0.01isk battle but now with 1.5million profit.
Are they hoping that people wont follow? and move onto other items instead? Why cause the market to crash so that even for the person who crashed it, if they do make a sale then they are getting 0.5million less themselves than if they just played the 0.01isk game.
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Niedar
MASS
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Posted - 2009.01.20 22:49:00 -
[2]
They don't have time to play the .01 isk game so they might as well deny you more profit potential and also hope that you don't follow them down. |
Joss Sparq
Caldari
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.20 22:50:00 -
[3]
"Because they can." |
MilowFV
Echo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.20 22:54:00 -
[4]
For me it one of two reasons I am in a hurry and dont have time to sit and do the .01 isk thing so I just try to price low enough that no one wants to follow or heck maybe even just buy me out.
The other is I dont plan to be around and just want to crash the market. If I am not making a profit off it why should anyone else. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.01.20 22:56:00 -
[5]
Damn, are they giving these topics away at the local mall? There's been enough of them!
It wouldn't be a real thread like this if I didn't insert my obligatory "0.01 isk bidder tears, om nom nom" comment.
If you don't know why, it's most likely that you've become a small fish in a sea of sharks in terms of that market.
They may just be wanting to liquidate their stock of that item, and they hope people aren't stupid enough to follow when they slice up to 30% of the profit margin in one change. Sadly, people are that stupid (see where the guys who made Lemmings got their motivation from?)
They may be a manufacturer who think their minerals are free.
They could be a trader trying to bait peoples prices lower so they can buy up and relist at a higher price.
Either way, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, they just have different motivations to you. |
SCAM CEO
Minmatar
S.C.A.M.
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Posted - 2009.01.20 22:57:00 -
[6]
Not all will follow and if they crash it enough they can then buy all the items and relist them at a 'reasonable value'  |
tank overide
Caldari
Tank Sox Studios
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Posted - 2009.01.20 23:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: tank overide on 20/01/2009 23:03:16
I do it because you will hit a point where people stop and wont follow, and most of the time they will leave that item for a few weeks and let me make my profit. Or I'm buying for the future rise making money doesn't always mean turning around and selling it.
But mostly I do it to make them made / push them out of my items.
Hope your not fighting over some of my items...  |
nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.20 23:10:00 -
[8]
Jita. What a *****. She doesn't play nice or fair.
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Breaker77
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Posted - 2009.01.20 23:17:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: SCAM CEO
Not all will follow and if they crash it enough they can then buy all the items and relist them at a 'reasonable value'
Well if I'm in a hurry I usually drop prices and if they follow I usually buy them up and make the profit :) |
MarieFrance Tessier
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Posted - 2009.01.20 23:51:00 -
[10]
one day, I'm going to collect a pile of mods, then put up buy and sell orders 2% away from eachother X several thousand.
No profit, but every single sale in that category will go through me.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.20 23:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: nether void
Jita. What a *****. She doesn't play nice or fair.
This
10% for Returning Customers |
Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2009.01.21 00:46:00 -
[12]
S**ts and giggles. What else is there?
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.01.21 03:00:00 -
[13]
Chicken poker. That, and it's FUN. |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.01.21 03:44:00 -
[14]
People crash the market because they're pretty stupid. |
WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.21 04:35:00 -
[15]
If I'm making 30 mil profit on an item and someone comes in and tries to make a profit of that item id rather make no profit at all rather then share the profit with anyone else. It's a form of pvp ;)
-----------------------------------------------
Free Trade Corp - Flash page
"Nothing about Eve should be easy. Not even ganking."
-Rhohan
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Research Slots
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Posted - 2009.01.21 04:50:00 -
[16]
I always liked the alternative option, where you crashed traders' profits by raising the buy price of their reprocess items until it wasn't profitable. Many, many hate mails from that practice. The LULZ factor is in the brokers fees for people who raise their 10k unit buy orders to follow your 25 unit orders.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.01.21 05:08:00 -
[17]
Not everyone is playing .01 isk games. Logistics people who are thinking in advance and don't want to pay the prices on the sell orders, will sometimes put up buy orders at above mineral cost, or with little or no profit to manufacturers but outstripping resellers. This is one of the things that rapidly runs up the price. They don't intend to resell it, they intend to fly it and blow it up and they want it somewhat quickly with minimal hassle and cost. If the order works for them they do it. Many don't really care how much it costs, they will be reimbursed or its coming from a giant corp wallet, and as far as they are concerned, they may think they are saving money buying that way rather than paying the sell price. I don't see why people think this is a mystery.
This is just one of many different reasons prices change by large amounts.
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Mskpath3
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Posted - 2009.01.21 06:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Super Whopper
People crash the market because they're pretty stupid.
This.
There's an awful lot of smarty man answers hinting at supa secret techniques and fancy trading motives, but it's so much hogwash. It benefits every seller to maximize the time that an item stays at a peak price. The amount of times where the massive-undercut actually accomplishes anything in a worthwhile market is about 1 in 1000. Any market worth trading in (or producing for) has enough competition that big-undercuts will last about 5 minutes.
Further, while it may temporarily drive away producers in search of greener pastures, as soon as the price rebounds they'll be right back. End result : The guys who left and then came back will have done better than you with your clever ploy to tank the market you want to squeeze (*rolls eyes*).
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.01.21 06:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Super Whopper
People crash the market because they're pretty stupid.
Nope. They do that to invade the market. Push off those who can't trade with small margin in large scale.
Good way to get rid of most traders.
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Mskpath3
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Posted - 2009.01.21 06:38:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Mskpath3 on 21/01/2009 06:42:43
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: Super Whopper
People crash the market because they're pretty stupid.
Nope. They do that to invade the market. Push off those who can't trade with small margin in large scale.
Good way to get rid of most traders.
Traders who think this way are fooling themselves. So, you've just driven the margin of some random named widget. It drives off some traders. Great. Now you've got a hot item that sells at....2% margin. Hooray. You've really succeeded.
And now consider who you've driven off, that won't come back. The weak traders. So what? The strong traders, running 100+ buy and sell orders are -constantly- ripping through the browser looking for new things to buy. As soon as your cleverly tanked market grows back to the point where it's worth your time, the strong traders (and I tend to believe there are more strong traders than weak traders) will be back on that thing before you can blink.
So, again. You've drive off people who a.) take that money and make more with it in the meantime while you're patting yourself on the back for being the king of a dunghill and b.) who will be back in a flash right around the time where you think "yeah, this item is getting really hot!".
You're overthinking the problem 98% of the time when working this way. It absolutely pays to be agile in the trading world. We do it so that our money isn't sitting idle. Well - if you've crashed a market and subsequently own it in it's depressed state, are you really doing much better than having idle isk? In real world terms, it's like a savings account that doesn't even beat inflation. If you look at your bank account and go "woohoo! I'm gaining", without realizing you're actually losing because that money could be doing WAY better elsewhere you're dumb.
I dunno, it's like the converse of beginner traders who see items that have HUGE margins but glacial volume and then don't understand why they're not raking in the cash. |
Astarte Nosferatu
Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation
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Posted - 2009.01.21 07:12:00 -
[21]
Why do people crash the markets?
Because it is fun to watch all the lemmings follow...
Yes, I'm selling some of my shares |
Blazing Fire
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.01.21 08:22:00 -
[22]
Quote:
why do people crash the market?
Profit?
I am tired of that question.
Some has to to put a sticky about that. |
Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2009.01.21 09:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mskpath3
Edited by: Mskpath3 on 21/01/2009 06:42:43
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: Super Whopper
People crash the market because they're pretty stupid.
Nope. They do that to invade the market. Push off those who can't trade with small margin in large scale.
Good way to get rid of most traders.
Traders who think this way are fooling themselves. So, you've just driven the margin of some random named widget. It drives off some traders. Great. Now you've got a hot item that sells at....2% margin. Hooray. You've really succeeded.
And now consider who you've driven off, that won't come back. The weak traders. So what? The strong traders, running 100+ buy and sell orders are -constantly- ripping through the browser looking for new things to buy. As soon as your cleverly tanked market grows back to the point where it's worth your time, the strong traders (and I tend to believe there are more strong traders than weak traders) will be back on that thing before you can blink.
So, again. You've drive off people who a.) take that money and make more with it in the meantime while you're patting yourself on the back for being the king of a dunghill and b.) who will be back in a flash right around the time where you think "yeah, this item is getting really hot!".
You're overthinking the problem 98% of the time when working this way. It absolutely pays to be agile in the trading world. We do it so that our money isn't sitting idle. Well - if you've crashed a market and subsequently own it in it's depressed state, are you really doing much better than having idle isk? In real world terms, it's like a savings account that doesn't even beat inflation. If you look at your bank account and go "woohoo! I'm gaining", without realizing you're actually losing because that money could be doing WAY better elsewhere you're dumb.
I dunno, it's like the converse of beginner traders who see items that have HUGE margins but glacial volume and then don't understand why they're not raking in the cash.
....blah.
And there my friends is the point of it. If you can p**s people off enough that they come on here and commit their time to writing episodes like this, then the job is done.
As always, most don't realise that there are many ways and reasons to play this game, and where the absolute maximisation of profit with 24/7 0.01'ing does it for some people, it doesn't do it for all.
A player who has more ISK than he/she could ever spend may get some fun still out of making money, but they might get even more fun out of ensuring that somebody else loses money, regardless of the lost profit to themselves. Personally I absolutely adore scuppering market manipulation efforts and do it a lot. Not under this char of course...
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EATMYPOSGUN
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Posted - 2009.01.21 10:10:00 -
[24]
Well thank u this was the question I was looking at the forum for :))
Lots of Anz good all sounds about right LOL
I am reasonable new to the station trade thing and had notice a lot of this in the last 3 weeks ,
And I dont mind cos It looks to me like all the prices going down, so I just keep buying ,they will go back up some time :)
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.01.21 10:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Joss Sparq
"Because they can."
Quoting the truth. |
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Feronia
Gallente
Magma Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.21 10:28:00 -
[26]
If nobody would crash the market or manipulate the price higher at times, and everybody would play the 0.01 Isk game all the time, the market would be pretty boring, no ?
Crashing the market or manipulating the price to higher levels is like pushing the "reset" button. It gives the market a chance to find a new balance between supply and demand.
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Delta Wings
Evolva' Spirit
House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.01.21 11:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Delta Wings on 21/01/2009 11:05:59
Why do dogs lick their balls?
Originally by: Joss Sparq
"Because they can."
[color orange]this is not a link[/color] |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Asylum
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Posted - 2009.01.21 11:07:00 -
[28]
1) trade in an item with nice profit
2) Profit shrinks as competition increases and your stock pile increases
3) Atifically crash the market in small steps so the lemmings follow. let the lemming sell at new low price keeping your "cheap" stock safe from selling
4) Rinse and repeat untill there is 2% profit ie nothing after taxes
5) Change the price of your stock a new price with 50-100% return.
6) Wait
7) Eventually someone will take the bait and buy out all the low priced stock and relist it below your stock at the higher price.
8) let them sell at the new higher price while rising the buy order in steps. Same way you crashed. The guy you let sell before sees they are making uber profits and will follow your buy orders.
9) now start reducing your sell price to try to sell a few at the high price and wait for an oppertunity to sell all your remaining stock at a nice profit to buy orders
10) All the stock you piled on the market will cause a massive crash.
11) as you know the "real" price you can wait for it to crash past that point (or help it)
12) buy up "your" old stockpile cheaper than you just dumped it to buy orders
13) Relist at a nice 30% margin and wait for step 2 to start again.
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Kitsumi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.21 11:22:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kitsumi on 21/01/2009 11:22:38
Or something that noone really touched on here. Time. Why would I sell xxx of yyy here when I could ship it over 3 hops and make zzz more per unit? Not worth my time. Same for listing lower. Maybe they're happy with that price and don't care to nickel-and-dime the market to maximize profit. Get it on the market, move it, get back in space.
MMOs, especially those with even half-way decent economies, are interesting beasts to see some people tackle. You'd think noone had ever heard of supply-and-demand or "time is money"... :D
Scars flown proud! |
Kimi Nogura
Caldari
Tech 2 Holdings Limited
Tech Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2009.01.21 11:42:00 -
[30]
Its a "tactic" just like .01 wars are. Basically your throwing down the gauntlet for the competition to follow you down the rabbit hole OR your a smart seller who relies on fast nickels instead of slow dimes. Just like the real world its all about not having your money tied up for long periods not producing more income.
More detailed answers are hard to come by because quite honestly people don't want to give up there secrets to potential competitors. 
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