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Does minmatar ships/modules really sucks`?

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Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.01.21 10:54:00 - [1] Well. I have been playing minmatar for some month. Now I tryed to fit an amarr BS with lvl 5 all skills. and a minmatar BS all @ 5 skills. And in tank, DPS and HP it owned minmatar bs totally. So is it just me or own a race as amarr (for exempel), minmatar? Because right now im thinking a lot to change from minmatar ships to amarr.
Xori Ruscuv Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.21 10:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/01/2009 11:00:37 Short answer: BS and larger: suck, except for the Typhoon, which owns if you have 12395867891235791751056710376019724 SP BC and smaller: awesome Amarr: awesome
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.21 10:59:00 - [3] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 21/01/2009 11:00:52 Amarr DPS is pwnsauce compared to Minmatar DPS. Abaddon can basically just alpha strike half the shields off a shield-tanking ship with each volley, so the Maelstrom and some Tempest fits are disadvantaged considerably because of this. The supposed counter to this is the fact that Minmatar can do a ton of explosive damage to the armor tanking Amarr ships... but since they can't match Amarr in DPS they don't get the chance to do this in a 1v1 before getting destroyed. Of course player skill will factor into this situation as well, but if you run pure numbers and don't account for disparities of skill or tactics, Amarr ships will have the advantage. edit: this is at the Battleship level. As was mentioned, smaller Minmatar ships are rather good.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.21 11:01:00 - [4] fit neut to minmatar ship. own amarr ship. profit but yeah, a very general look across the races matar are subpar when compared to amarr. it doesn't make them useless, just stats are less on EFT fly some amarr ships, give em a try and see what you like ---------- "This is Chopper Dave's made for TV movie, Blades Of Vengeance. See, he's a chopper pilot by day, but by night he fights crime as a werewolf... YEAH!"
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.01.21 11:18:00 - [5] People are keep on forgetting that they are the perfect hunting ships: - Fastest Base Locking (easier to catch targets) - Highest Base Agility (to GTFO) - Highest Base Speed (you dedicate distance = you can run from a fight) - Lowest Base Signature (they will have difficulty locking you then any other race) - Most Vertaistile ships (your enemy NEVER knows how you have fitted your ship) - The Ability to engage close and from distance I have this all better then the other races but I give up to some damage output and defences but that is a "lack" I can live with.
ViperVenom Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.21 11:30:00 - [6] Well lets see.....I fly Minnie BS (in love with the Pest/Phoon.... I feel that with my Skill and SP (50mil plus) i can handle most BS 1v1.. With that being said to fly a good minne BS u need a boat load of SP.. I mean a Boat load. a Pest can not out Alpha any Bs now a-days. So to give you my input is i have to say that all minnie ships Below BS are great..--Edit--Most.. If u have a boat load of SP and know how to fight then BS are ok.. Iv been in a 5 man Pest fleet Where all of us were Hi9 sp and skill with 1 remote rep fitted Pwnsome Spider tank... To recap 1)knowledge in how to fight with minnie ships 2)SP 3)Team work if not flying solo..
hellsknights SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.21 11:42:00 - [7] No matter what EFT says or DPS/TANK. A ship is only as good as its pilot and fit. Plaine and simple.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.21 11:52:00 - [8] EFT provides OPTIMAL dps, not effective dps (ok you can get closer with the Graph thiggy) and using an all-V char is totally unrealistic in most situations. You cannot compare Amarr BSs to Minie BSs, at least not with the Typhoon and Tempest. Unlike Amarr BSs that are basically nothing more than laser platforms with hi-dps and huge buffer / decent active tank. Slow, cap dependent, able to fit minimum tackling gear and very little room / no utility slots without serious sacrifices. On the other hand, the Minmatar BSs offer greater versatility, cap independence for weapons and enough utility slots to make a difference...you have to think out of the box and actually utilize those slots, fitting ewar or RR modules that will give you the edge over the very specialized amarrian cannons...do not try to out-gank or out-tank them without playing "dirty"...it's simply not clever... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.01.21 12:34:00 - [9] Edited by: Mysteriax on 21/01/2009 12:38:11 Utility slots do not make a damn difference. Hey I neuted a geddon. Oh with his caprecharger he killed me before his cap ran out since he has way more dps and way more tank at better ranges. But i am 5 metres per second faster. Big conficts are decided in fleets, thats sniper Dread Carrier POS warfare. Guess who is the weakest in that. Worst Dread Worst carrier Worst sniper all minmatar. Rapiers nowadays are ****e. Hey i webbed someone, wtf with dual web he still reaches the gate within 10 seconds. Vaga's get tackled by every frig and killed by support. Muninn well not even gonna mention why that boat is crap. The allmighty huricane of the past is now number 3 in the T2 BC ranking. Ever seen the bonus on the claymore its useless now. So what good ships do minmatar have Broadsword and sabre are awesome. Rifter and Jag arent half bad. Rupture is nice and thrasher is quite good. Wait arent these all small and useless ships well yeah but in there class they are good. No there is 1 descent ship left the sleipnir, perhaps not as good as pre QR but its still quite good. Ok the Typhoon isnt all that crap either but with 21 mil sp Minmatar only skills I still cant fly the damn thing well. I still wonder why I am a minnie only char but some people like me like to be the underdog. We could use some buffing.
Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:20:00 - [10] thankfor all the usefull answers. i think i will go after amarr ships from now on. i only got 1 mio gun skills so it wil take about 20 days then im on the same lvl with amarr as i am wit mini :)

Groknor	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:48:00 - [11] Well I killed a Tech 2 Minmatar Heavy Assault Ship in a Tech 1 Arbitrator. That pretty much sums it up.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:48:00 - [12] Originally by: Mysteriax Utility slots do not make a damn difference. Hey I neuted a geddon. Oh with his caprecharger he killed me before his cap ran out since he has way more dps and way more tank at better ranges. But i am 5 metres per second faster. Wrong choice of utilities then. The Geddon only has three mids, so cannot fit cap booster and MWD and point and web and ECCM, never mind anything else. A Tempest's 5 mids lets it fit all of these modules if it wants, or a tracking disruptor and still have a spare midslot over the Geddon. And a tracking disruptor + higher speed means you can dictate range if you want, or get in close and orbit the Geddon with your natively higher-tracking ACs (which are now much better tracking compared to TD-ed megapulses). If the Geddon is cap boosting, and lets assume he has a point to hold you in place, then he only has one midslot left for either a web, MWD or ECCM. No matter what he chooses, he will be incredibly disadvantaged in situations that call for one of the other two. Likewise, if you are caught by a smaller ship in your Tempest you will have neuts available to send them packing; an Abaddon, for example, will have no such luxury (or will have to sacrifice 10% of its DPS to fit it). It's easy for people flying other races' ships to look at the EFT figures of Amarrian ships and say they beat everything else. And undoubtedly they're the best at tank and gank - I'm pretty sure this is deliberate based on the races' philosophies. However they are very limited in any role beyond this. The ships are sluggish, the weapons depend on cap and have the lowest tracking of all turrets, fitting a MWD can be a problem becuase of limited midslots and the cap penalty (while not fitting a MWD can be a problem because of no manouverability), etc. These shortcomings can be compensated for by a good gang (or alternative, failed to be exploited by unimaginative opponents) but you cannot and should not hope to compete directly with them in a tank/gank dichotomy. I'm always amazed at how many battleship fights end up with my opponent sitting still 3-7km from me and hoping my tank breaks first (hint, get an orbit going so that the tracking difference actually matters and brings the DPS more in line, or have ewar fitted to your own ship). Diomidus hit the nail on the head with his comments, as did Jalif. The advantages that Minmatar have are broadly overlooked by the playerbase, probably because they cannot be directly shown in EFT, or because there are no cookie-cutter fits that take advantage of them (beyond straightforward concepts like the nano-Vaga, for instance). Quote: Rapiers nowadays are **e. Hey i webbed someone, wtf with dual web he still reaches the gate within 10 seconds. Rapiers are still great at holding down a target and letting your fleet dictate range. Running back to get was deliberately made harder (for any ship with webs), but a bump or two should easily send the guy back out. Quote: Vaga's get tackled by every frig and killed by support. Low transversal of incoming frig + AC damage, falloff & tracking = dead frig. Med neut helps too (utility slots again). Quote: The allmighty huricane of the past is now number 3 in the T2 BC ranking. I'd say it's joint first with Harbi and Drake actually - it's often considered tied for first with Harbi. Quote:** Ever seen the bonus on the claymore its useless now. Skirmish Warfare ganglinks are awesome. Signature reduction is a real boon, more speed is still more speed, and who wouldn't want longer-range webs and points?
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.01.21 14:14:00 - [13] Edited by: NightmareX on 21/01/2009 14:15:49 Originally by: Groknor Well I killed a Tech 2 Minmatar Heavy Assault Ship in a Tech 1 Arbitrator. That pretty much sums it up. So if i killed an Astarte in my Rupture, does that sums it up to?. It's not hard to kill noobs / clueless players in much bigger ships than i'am in my self. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
echohead	Posted - 2009.01.21 14:44:00 - [14] "Big conficts are decided in fleets, thats sniper Dread Carrier POS warfare. Guess who is the weakest in that. Worst Dread Worst carrier Worst sniper all minmatar." Some of us are not alliance slaves. Minnies have the best frigs, the best Assault ships, good cruisers. People want everything in eve to be balanced. But it is not, some races just have higher DPS than others. And like another poster noted; some races have more utility slots and versatility.
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/01/2009 11:00:37 BS and larger: suck, except for the Typhoon, which owns if you have 12395867891235791751056710376019724 SP Just out of curiousity what is this omgwtfpwn setup of the typhoon wich requires 100 mill sp?
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Burn Mac Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/01/2009 11:00:37 BS and larger: suck, except for the Typhoon, which owns if you have 12395867891235791751056710376019724 SP Just out of curiousity what is this omgwtfpwn setup of the typhoon wich requires 100 mill sp? Once you have 12 decillion skill points you can equip smaller ships in your slots and shoot rifters at people
Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:30:00 - [17] Well now i know what to do :). Im going to train for amarr BS and bigger lateron... and BC and lower i will be mini in :) that should solve the problem.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:31:00 - [18] Edited by: P''uck on 21/01/2009 15:31:14 Originally by: Vabjekf Once you have 12 decillion skill points you can equip smaller ships in your slots and shoot rifters at people Nah, you rarely ever, if even, fit 1400s on the phoon...
Captain Rockharder	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Thats Mining Well now i know what to do :). Im going to train for amarr BS and bigger lateron... and BC and lower i will be mini in :) that should solve the problem. This is kind of what I did, except I was Caldari crosstraining into minnie cause I thought dakkadakka was cooler than pewpewpew. I use Caldari BS's and minnie for everything below. If I don't consider BS's for minnies, I'd be happy with something for the Muninn/arties
chrisss0r	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:49:00 - [20] Well i kind love the phoon and tempest. While it is true that their gank and/or tank are subpar they can still very much control small gang warfare.Typhoon has suprise-fittings every time and the tempest is a freakin swiss army knive. Eccm, TD, mwd, cap booster, point , 2 heavy neuts and a higher base speed really help in most fights. But yeah it's all about dps. Oh wait i have a phoon in my hangar dealing 1400 dps into the face.

Merchant Banker Wunch Of Bankers	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Groknor Well I killed a Tech 2 Minmatar Heavy Assault Ship in a Tech 1 Arbitrator. That pretty much sums it up. we'll ive kiled a rohk with a group of 3 week old punihsers does that mean the rohk is ****? no it means that we new what we're doing and the rohk pilot didnt.
VoiceInTheDesert Gallente Diplomatic Disruption	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:08:00 - [22] Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 21/01/2009 16:09:32 EFT numbers are silly. Real combat is much different and a lot can come down to making little mistakes or making a good guess as to what will happen next. That said, the Matar BS are not able to take on a Amarr BS 1v1 very well. Really, the only ship I would trust against an Abaddon would be a Mega/Hyp and that's only if they can get in range and stay there. Matar BS are still useful though. The phoon is great and the Pest can be a nasty sniper/alpha strike platform. Different races just have different styles. Matar ships smaller than BS are great. Anything above is questionable.
Dark Soldat Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:22:00 - [23] The day i fly minmatar is the day when i get really bored and have trained all other non-minmatar skills to V...i rather train scrapmetal processing V than minmatar frigate lvl 1, and im a frickin combat pilot Don`t you just hate when people force you to read their signature before you realize you are reading it?
Clever Drake Minmatar Apeshit Assassins	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Dark Soldat The day i fly minmatar is the day when i get really bored and have trained all other non-minmatar skills to V...i rather train scrapmetal processing V than minmatar frigate lvl 1, and im a frickin combat pilot So much hate in such a small post. Minmatar are fine, just takes a little extra to fly their BSs well. They bring flexability to the fleet in whatever area that may be lacking. Phoon and Tempest really excel this way.
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.01.22 03:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Clever Drake Originally by: Dark Soldat The day i fly minmatar is the day when i get really bored and have trained all other non-minmatar skills to V...i rather train scrapmetal processing V than minmatar frigate lvl 1, and im a frickin combat pilot So much hate in such a small post. Minmatar are fine, just takes a little extra to fly their BSs well. They bring flexibility to the fleet in whatever area that may be lacking. Phoon and Tempest really excel this way. Just out of interest what does a tempest bring to a sniper fleet. If you say alpha i will lol. It has the worst range, damage is low. Worst tracking. Ever seen the clipsize?? In any larger fight my pest can only fire 10 times before its stuck reloading which never works in fleet fights. Very hard to Tank for DD's unless you drop the gyro's. but it has 3400 alpha. Well no it doesn't since in any fleet fights you need to be tanked for DD's which drops the amount of gyro's which drop the alpha damage. And with the worst tracking you better pray you hit all shots. To above posters Rapier does not hold his own. Compare it to a falcon which can do his thing at 200km range. Also QR effectively killed the rapiers speed tank. If a rapier gets primaried it dies so fast it isn't even funny. For battlecruisers Drakes are one, no contest. Harby a strong number 2 better tank and gank. Hurricane a solid 3rd place since QR nerfed its speed and in gank or tank it cannot compare to a harby. Never mind the ranges compared to pulse lasers. Falloff hurts dps so much it isnt even funny. Oh and flexibility isn't needed in a fleet you have better more specialized ships for it. Basically what minmatar has is 1 good frigate 1 good cruiser and the Dictor and Hictor. The rest is sup par. Not saying they aint flyable just that there are much better ships for any situation.
Gram Hellfire Eyes of the Night B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.22 03:36:00 - [26] minmatar ships are fun to fly, and thats all i care about.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.22 03:47:00 - [27] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 22/01/2009 03:53:22 Several weeks ago you saw nothink else as Vegabounds and Minmatar Recons (well, neraly nothink else). And that last for about 2 years. And everybody told me to switch from Amarr as they suck :( It's not even 6 month ago and now all fly Zealots (WTF is up with Amarr-HAC market?!?!? 110++ mil for a Zealot) and Cerbs (wut? I thought from forum whines Caldari suck allaround!) mixed with some Curse. Now I have a Minmatar alt and people try to tell me that Minmatar suck :(. But um, does they changed somethink at Amarr ships or Laser? Laser for sure no, ships got the same changes as any race. Same for Minmatar and Projectil. The weapons did not change, just the ship attributs. And for level 4th ... nothink sucks more then Amarr Lasor against Gurista!! 2+ houres for a WC gurista side says all :/. PS: Hurrican does about the same DPS as Harbinger but tanks a LOT more (passive shild tank FTW) + is MUCH faster/agil + does not stick with em/therm dam only!
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.01.22 04:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 22/01/2009 03:53:22 Several weeks ago you saw nothink else as Vegabounds and Minmatar Recons (well, neraly nothink else). And that last for about 2 years. And everybody told me to switch from Amarr as they suck :( It's not even 6 month ago and now all fly Zealots (WTF is up with Amarr-HAC market?!?!? 110++ mil for a Zealot) and Cerbs (wut? I thought from forum whines Caldari suck allaround!) mixed with some Curse. Now I have a Minmatar alt and people try to tell me that Minmatar suck :(. But um, does they changed somethink at Amarr ships or Laser? Laser for sure no, ships got the same changes as any race. Same for Minmatar and Projectil. The weapons did not change, just the ship attributs. And for level 4th ... nothink sucks more then Amarr Lasor against Gurista!! 2+ houres for a WC gurista side says all :/. PS: Hurrican does about the same DPS as Harbinger but tanks a LOT more (passive shild tank FTW) + is MUCH faster/agil + does not stick with em/therm dam only! Several months ago more like it. Anyways those times vaga's where overpowered and the counter to that was a rapier. Since then they nerfed both the rapier and the vaga into oblivion. Harb does more DPS then the Hurricane. The only way a cane can come close is if they use T2 ammo which does explo damage which nerfs tracking and cap recharge. Passive shield tanking it does nice but the myrm and the drake do it much better. Also especialy with a cane you cant PvP in pasive shield tanking. The saying minmatar can choose its dps is usally wrong because oiften we need T2 ammo which does Explo + kin damage. Harb doesn't rat very well against anything but bloodraiders and Sansha but neither does the cane really, it only works well versus angels and the Drake and Myrm do it infinitely better on all npc factions. the reason while projectiles and minmatar ships as a whole are worse is the nerf to modules which are used in utility slots. ECM, Scripts, NOS nerf. Plus the boost to EHP for ships which makes alpha not important anymore.
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.22 04:28:00 - [29] minimatar recons sound fun to me. hurricane, wolf, sarbe - my ships of choice cyclone - no I don't get the point of this ship. rupture - this ship could look better typhoon - arguably best solo BS in game due to versatility, superior to Raven cheetah and hound - my best choice of covert ops in game, with enough CPU and cargo space to do the job right. Also highest speed coverts ships in game. thrasher - the king of all small ships, will destroy any single one of them with DPS and tracking. Minimatar dreadnaught - really want more DPS out of it, needs more DPS. Moros surpasses all dread due to unfair drone advantage. Drones shoot smaller targets. Naglfar needs more capital to capital DPS with more skill points to invest. Minimatar Dreadnaught needs more capital to capital DPS minimatar drones are best at what they do. minimatar E-war - target painters are great, but underestimated. Tempest and Maelstrom need more kick ass in them, perhaps more problems come from Large Projectiles. Some minimatar ships are outstanding and superior... some have design flaws and feebleness. Minimatar ships should be combat sturdy and viable. Simple design and work in any conditions, even when the hull is breached and capacitor is drained.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.22 04:40:00 - [30] Here's the thing, even when you try to work to the advantages of Minmatar (which means using the weakness of your opponent), you are just simply outgunned due to the huge increase in EHP that was given a few patches ago. Even if you can out-track that triple plated/trimarked abaddon he will simply wear you down as the fight drags on because he has double the armor you do and higher resists. I tested this in EFT to get a general idea of a Machariel versus an Abaddon. Not really a fair comparison, but the 800 million ISK ship will lose to a tier 3 battleship if you try to play to their disadvantage (try fitting a Mach out with TDs and 425s, you'll still be hit up close orbiting enough that your tank will break before the abaddons). The reason is a mix of the abaddon having more EHP and tracking not being linear with a sudden dropoff; you don't all of a sudden not hit your opponent when he out-tracks your guns. Now, triple plating and trimarking your Mach you will beat out that abaddon, but it's not advised to do that with a Maelstrom and while doable with a typhoon, the typhoon will still lose out due to abaddon's EHP. It's comparing apples to oranges when you only look at 2 setups with 3 ships, but the problem is still there: EHP has skyrocketed while the boost to tracking makes it almost impossible to out-track your opponent as minmatar.

Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.01.22 05:23:00 - [31] Huh, I just fly mah ship, and shoot pew pew's at themz other guys and they exploders. Not having any problems yet, but I'll let yah know.
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.22 05:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Megan Maynard Huh, I just fly mah ship, and shoot pew pew's at themz other guys and they exploders. Not having any problems yet, but I'll let yah know. confirmed
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.22 07:07:00 - [33] Some are good some aren't so good, depends what you use them for, same goes for any races ships. The speed nerf did hurt Minmatar, but it's not the end of the road. Sleipnir, Rapier, Vagabond, Hurricane, Claymore, Stiletto, Sabre and Tempest are my favorites.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.22 10:29:00 - [34] Edited by: Typhado3 on 22/01/2009 10:30:41 A few problems I see is mminmatar aren't actually that awesome at the things they are supposed to specialize in. - The mael out alpha's the the abbadon by -79 dmg (yes that's a negative sign). - the claw is 11m/s faster than the crusader (0m if your overheating your mwd), the crusader also has more ehp, dps and agility. - flexibility of the tempest; raven has 2 high slots as well, and 1 more mid slot for (if you think the raven hasn't got flexibility you havn't fought burn eden). I'm not sure which has more flexibilty I've flown both but measuring flexibility isn't as easy as opening up eft and plugging in the numbers. The other problem I have with minmatar is it's harder to make up for their faults than some other races, for all amarr complain about capless weapons you should realise there's a single midslot module that can damn near completely counter your problem... except in a few cases dps and tank you can't really do much for that everyone else isn't doing which still leaves you still the original difference behind (well it would if minmatar have the same amount of slots for tanking other raes have). I really think minmatar need a good look at, with the main focus being bringing back their racial strengths and giving minmatar a boost that way.
Groknor	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:02:00 - [35] Edited by: Groknor on 22/01/2009 13:02:56 I think the point is, given if all Pilots have exactly the same skill level and intuitions, Minmatar falls slightly short in some situations. However, since all pilots are different and react differently, Minmatar pilots just have to be more intelligent and one step ahead of the opposition, which is VERY possible.
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:06:00 - [36] Edited by: Jalif on 22/01/2009 13:06:56 Think outside the ****ing box! If you have the correct skills you will excel in minmatar even with the most strangest ships. PROOF: http://blacksinisters.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=329 (player that is 2 years older) http://blacksinisters.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=333 http://blacksinisters.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=349 (got out with 5% structure while they had a moros and chimera) http://blacksinisters.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=266 (check the whole engagement, I was able to tank both ships during to engagement, Arazu came at the end to point so I could kill both) + Escaped countless blobs because cyclone has an awesome speed of 2k while overheating + Escaped a Absolution who tackled me in a belt but I still managed to get out. This has been done with a cyclone. Clearly there are people who don't know how to fly minmatar because they don't specialise in it. They are just training the FOTM like anybody else. Minmatar does indeed have their failures and need a buff here and there.. but they are from the worst race. EDIT: You don't need max skills in minmatar to be effective. I only have 22mil SP combat & combat related. The trick is not to train for the FOTM.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:16:00 - [37] I like Minmatar. Projectiles are due for a boost. As is the race. The trick is to figure out what the FOTM is before it actually is FOTM and try to get ahead of the curve. Right now if you take out all the "Nerf Falcon" threads there are at least two others arguing for arty/ Minnie BS/Cap improvements.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:21:00 - [38] Edited by: ry ry on 22/01/2009 13:23:12 i pretty much only fly minmatar and to be honest, you do need max skills - but in teh right places. 100mil SP aren't a pre-requisite. lots of people neglect getting important core skills sorted out properly and find they're cruising around in a HAC that they can't fit properly and caps out everytime the MWD cycles. things like heat can be a great equalizer too, if you come up against a better pilot in a better ship just being able to up your web range slightly can mean the difference between glorious victory and crushing defeat.
Xol'tan Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:43:00 - [39] Edited by: Xol''tan on 22/01/2009 13:46:49 It probably is time lasers got a Nerf high optimal blaster dps at mid ranges with instant ammo changes is just to much add to that the largest tanks in the game and it start to be quite overpowerd, before QR turret range was not as much a advantage.
Zaran Darkstar Divine Slaves	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:58:00 - [40] Minmatar BSes lose miserably in EFT by Amarr. I am a great EFT lover myself. Truth is that Amarr BSes do about doyuble raw DPS damage etc but unlike Minmatar BSes Amarrian BSes can't do every mission out there. I fly the Paladin but there are still missions were the Maelstorm is better. Bottom line: Minmatar BSes need an upgrade but even without it they still have their uses.

Thercon Jair Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:07:00 - [41] Edited by: Thercon Jair on 22/01/2009 15:20:24 Edited by: Thercon Jair on 22/01/2009 15:10:33 /me sighs. Heavily. Minmatar ships aren't as bas as people make them out. And. Why does everyone come with the argument of "another ship needs to sacrifice dps to fit utility highs". As far as I know, minnie ships can fit all highslots they have with weapons. So, please refrain from saying that a pest has 2 utility highs. And, Tempests are not bad in fleets. 152km optimal with Tremor L, 44km falloff and 350dps with my skills (356dps with an all lvl5, which I am going to use for the ease of it). With my mathematical abilities I am going to tell you that you will deal 222.5dps pure explosive damage at 152km, using Tremor L. Now, let's compare this to a typical fleet Apoc with Megabeams II. With Aurora L you get 171km optimal and 20km falloff. Oh, now, look at that! Optimal + falloff = 191km! Tempest utterly fails, it only gets to 196km optimal + falloff! Alright, but the Apoc does 372dps, that's 16dps more of full win for the Apoc. So, now, let's go ahead and compare that to the armor resistances of your fleet apoc. 57.5% EM resistance and 32% Explosive resistance on your overinflated, trimarked armor. Using again my magical mathematical abilites I come to the conclusion that the Apoc deals 232.5 pure EM dps. We now have these stats: 232.5 EM DPS on the Apoc 222.5 Explosive DPS on the Tempest 57.5% EM resistances on average fleet armor 32% Explosive resistances on average fleet armor So, let me use my mighty mathematical forces to conclude that, after resistances, the EM part of the damage deals 98.81dps, while the Explosive part of the Tremor Ls damage deals 151dps. Oh my, oh my, the Tempest is complete and utter fail. I mean, the thermal damage part of Aurora is going to save the day over the kinetic damage part of Tremor! Yes, the Tempest has 16k less EHP when both fit all their rigslots with trimark rigs, but, if you're unpointed in a 150km+ fleetfight and get shot at, and don't make it out, then you fail clearly as much as the tempest fails in your opinion. And now I better shut up before you whiners get a clue and start buying up all my tempests and I can't afford to pvp anymore, since I only fly minmatar ships. It already happened with the vagabond and rapier. When people noticed, above all the whines, that those are excellent ships, I couldn't afford them anymore and had to resort to the other utter minnie failships. P.S.: Apologies for my utterly failing sarcasm. Oh no, I was again sarcastic! Sorry again Edit: I know that some people fit Tachyon Beam IIs to their Amarr fleet ships. 7 Tachyon Beam IIs fit on an apoc with 1 RCU II. It does leave 1 highslot empty that could otherwise fit another beam. You get 351dps with 7 Tachyons, but a much improved range (188+25km with aurora L) and remote repair abilities. In this case, your damage over the tempest is even worse, yet you gain the ability too shoot where the tempest can't even target anymore. Which is my only gripe with the minnie ships: the way that sensorboosters work with the scripts. The tempest that locks fastest gets outpaced in locking range and locking speed by the other races in fleet engagements when you want to make the optimal reach 152km. It's a bit like with the other things that another poster mentioned, that some ships are better in certain things were minmatar should racially excell. Non-minmatar inties being faster and more agile, for example. I mean... WTF? Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Groknor Well I killed a Tech 2 Minmatar Heavy Assault Ship in a Tech 1 Arbitrator. That pretty much sums it up. I killed a Cerb in a stabber. Your comment is useless. There are nub pilots out there. --
Wahjoo Minmatar Ghoulish Endeavors	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:43:00 - [43] Originally by: P'uck Edited by: P''uck on 21/01/2009 15:31:14 Originally by: Vabjekf Once you have 12 decillion skill points you can equip smaller ships in your slots and shoot rifters at people Nah, you rarely ever, if even, fit 1400s on the phoon... I think the most I managed to fit, with weapons on all the highslots has been 1200mm. And that took 2 Anciarry Current Router Rigs to do it.
Ryuzaki Lawliet Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Vabjekf Originally by: Burn Mac Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/01/2009 11:00:37 BS and larger: suck, except for the Typhoon, which owns if you have 12395867891235791751056710376019724 SP Just out of curiousity what is this omgwtfpwn setup of the typhoon wich requires 100 mill sp? Once you have 12 decillion skill points you can equip smaller ships in your slots and shoot rifters at people I'm putting that into my sig. XD Originally by: Vabjekf Once you have 12 decillion skill points you can equip smaller ships in your slots and shoot rifters at people
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.01.23 08:22:00 - [45] Originally by: Thercon Jair Edited by: Thercon Jair on 22/01/2009 15:20:24 Edited by: Thercon Jair on 22/01/2009 15:10:33 /me sighs. Heavily. And, Tempests are not bad in fleets. 152km optimal with Tremor L, 44km falloff and 350dps with my skills (356dps with an all lvl5, which I am going to use for the ease of it). With my mathematical abilities I am going to tell you that you will deal 222.5dps pure explosive damage at 152km, using Tremor L. Now, let's compare this to a typical fleet Apoc with Megabeams II. With Aurora L you get 171km optimal and 20km falloff. Oh, now, look at that! Optimal + falloff = 191km! Tempest utterly fails, it only gets to 196km optimal + falloff! Alright, but the Apoc does 372dps, that's 16dps more of full win for the Apoc. So, now, let's go ahead and compare that to the armor resistances of your fleet apoc. 57.5% EM resistance and 32% Explosive resistance on your overinflated, trimarked armor. Using again my magical mathematical abilites I come to the conclusion that the Apoc deals 232.5 pure EM dps. We now have these stats: 232.5 EM DPS on the Apoc 222.5 Explosive DPS on the Tempest 57.5% EM resistances on average fleet armor 32% Explosive resistances on average fleet armor So, let me use my mighty mathematical forces to conclude that, after resistances, the EM part of the damage deals 98.81dps, while the Explosive part of the Tremor Ls damage deals 151dps. Oh my, oh my, the Tempest is complete and utter fail. I mean, the thermal damage part of Aurora is going to save the day over the kinetic damage part of Tremor! Yes, the Tempest has 16k less EHP when both fit all their rigslots with trimark rigs, but, if you're unpointed in a 150km+ fleetfight and get shot at, and don't make it out, then you fail clearly as much as the tempest fails in your opinion. P.S.: Apologies for my utterly failing sarcasm. Oh no, I was again sarcastic! Sorry again Edit: I know that some people fit Tachyon Beam IIs to their Amarr fleet ships. 7 Tachyon Beam IIs fit on an apoc with 1 RCU II. It does leave 1 highslot empty that could otherwise fit another beam. You get 351dps with 7 Tachyons, but a much improved range (188+25km with aurora L) and remote repair abilities. In this case, your damage over the tempest is even worse, yet you gain the ability too shoot where the tempest can't even target anymore. Which is my only gripe with the minnie ships: the way that sensorboosters work with the scripts. The tempest that locks fastest gets outpaced in locking range and locking speed by the other races in fleet engagements when you want to make the optimal reach 152km. It's a bit like with the other things that another poster mentioned, that some ships are better in certain things were minmatar should racially excell. Non-minmatar inties being faster and more agile, for example. I mean... WTF? So at 172km who does most damage. Falloff bites hard. You dont EVER WANNA FIRE WITH A SNIPER IN FALLOFF YOU ALWAYS TRY TO GET TO OPTIMAL. Now who has an easier time to do that. Also most baddons these days use tachyons. Also you been in fleet fights right?? What happens to a tempest after he fired his 10 shots? Right it doesnt reload. If you unlink your guns you may get lucky and 1 or 2 might actualy reload. You didnt account for reloading in your dps stats. Also not all sniper ships are armor tanked the rokh and maelstrom (the mael is a better sniper then a pest) both shield tank. So it doesnt work for all ships. Also you didnt include the EHP factor in much if you ever been in a fleetfight you know ships the fleet target dont die instantly because of lag so EHP plays a very important factor . So worst tracking worst range worst dps worst EHP now why would i use a pest? Also you never mentioned making it DD proof. For a pest to do that he sacrifices nearly all his Gyrostabs. Thus lowering DPS. These days there is nearly always a Titan.
Thercon Jair Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.23 10:24:00 - [46] It works, you don't have to believe it if you want to keep on whining. Some time ago I thought the pest was utter crap, but I was wrong. About making it DD proof: how fast is your average plated triple trimarked battleship with a MWD? How fast is your glasscannon pest? Right, 1520m/s with an overloaded MWD II, which means, you clear a 20km warp bubble in a little over 13 seconds, a DD takes 15 seconds to charge. Not much leeway? First, the bubbler comes in. What do you do when you get bubbled? Yes, you idly sit around poking in your nose... I rather think you start to burn out of the bubble and align. When the bubble is there a cyno goes up and your friendly neighbourhood titan comes in. Should be ample time to get out. Sure, there's lag, but, guess what, you're not the only one affected by the lag. Also, triple trimarking and plating a ship comes at great costs in speed and agility, while you get what? 50% more EHP? How many times have you been DDed? How many times did you conventionally die in your expensively rigged battleship? And, why do you die? I die because I can't warp out because I am pointed, and, to be honest, I have better chances of escaping when I'm not a fat bastard that can't get out of the bloody bubble because I'm moving at snail's speed, even though there is lag. And yeah, the Maelstrom can be rather easily made DD proof, compared to the tempest. But, why don't I fly it over the Tempest? It's slower, it's less agile, it costs more, and, it usually has less tracking and no ability to fit remote armor repairers. Yes, you can't easily make it DD proof, but, IMO its defense is the ability to get out before the DD strikes. So, I need to reload after 10 shots. So what? After max. 5-6min of continuous fire your cap is empty. Uh, **, eh? Your guns are stuck? You don't see it because you don't have an ammo counter. We can go on with that, but, I just think, the tempest is different. It does work. With my crappy and utterly **ty and overly subpar Tempest I end up quite high on most fleet killmails and am also quite often the guy with the most damage dealt. P.S.: And, nowadays, with the advent of all the plated 1 DD proof BSs, don't you think the Titan droppers have adapted and now drop 2 titans on top of your very expensive BS? It won't survive 2 of them. And, you might survive the DD, but you'll be so low on HP and so slow to get out of that bubble that even the heavy dictor is probably going to kill you.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2009.01.23 10:41:00 - [47] Edited by: Ambien Torca on 23/01/2009 10:41:52 Mael is cheaper because you don¦t need trimarks to be DD proof (actually there is a way to fit tempest like that too but then you¦ll give up even more dps). It does more damage and agility difference is so minimal that it doesn¦t matter at all. And lack of RR, doesn¦t matter because you can just use RR drones instead to get some use out of your bigger dronebay(since repairs are done outside fighting unless you are specifically fitting to attack POS). Baseprice is not a reason to choose tempest over maelstrom either since insured loss if actually far less than trimarked tempest.
kyrv	Posted - 2009.01.23 11:26:00 - [48] Edited by: kyrv on 23/01/2009 11:33:25 Originally by: Mysteriax Edited by: Mysteriax on 21/01/2009 12:38:11 Utility slots do not make a damn difference. Hey I neuted a geddon. Oh with his caprecharger he killed me before his cap ran out since he has way more dps and way more tank at better ranges. But i am 5 metres per second faster. Big conficts are decided in fleets, thats sniper Dread Carrier POS warfare. Guess who is the weakest in that. Worst Dread Worst carrier Worst sniper all minmatar. Rapiers nowadays are ****e. Hey i webbed someone, wtf with dual web he still reaches the gate within 10 seconds. Vaga's get tackled by every frig and killed by support. Muninn well not even gonna mention why that boat is crap. The allmighty huricane of the past is now number 3 in the T2 BC ranking. Ever seen the bonus on the claymore its useless now. So what good ships do minmatar have Broadsword and sabre are awesome. Rifter and Jag arent half bad. Rupture is nice and thrasher is quite good. Wait arent these all small and useless ships well yeah but in there class they are good. No there is 1 descent ship left the sleipnir, perhaps not as good as pre QR but its still quite good. Ok the Typhoon isnt all that crap either but with 21 mil sp Minmatar only skills I still cant fly the damn thing well. I still wonder why I am a minnie only char but some people like me like to be the underdog. We could use some buffing. That is real tbh. I'd like to compare the curse to Huggin, Curse Infinate Cap No fall-off, tracking, optimals Very tough ship Very Fast ship Tracking disrupts minmatar barrage guns which work against 80% resists Cap Drains out of reach of guns Can Fit Tackle/Tank/Nos or Neut Massive Drone space/configurable damage types. Huggin Can web targets at 60% @ 40km's Can fit a weak buffer shield Tank/little sustained defence Little space for tackle Less Dps than curse I didn't do a good job summing up the points here but its clear the rapier/huggin has given by the dev's no offensive capibility, only a entirely passive existance in terms or defence and offence. Entirley simple to see that the curse has an extremely active offense/defence with aggressive points of offense in even the medium slots.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.23 12:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Thercon Jair stuff Minmatar ships aren't useless in fleets, we are 20% or so less dps (closer to 50% if they are using tachyons though) and we are very close to caldari. For this we get much better agility and speed? look at the mael, it's 2nd slowest to align it's 2nd fastest with around 5% greater speed than the slowest ships. The tempest is a more minmatar ship with a proper speed advantage though it's align time is equal to a mega and not much greater than the others. If agility was really that valuable for fleet ships don't you think inertia stabs and overdrives would be used on fleet battleships? ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Elurilmar	Posted - 2009.01.23 12:44:00 - [50] The reason you guys are frustrated is because you all are comparing apples to oranges. Of course a curse is better than a huginn in different situations. Rapiers and Huginns were made for small ship killing. Hence the web range and TP. I'm sick of people saying "This ship sucks compared to amarr!" when that is complete bull**. Amarr may have better bonuses to the common EFT warrior, but they run into cap problems (even on a curse), ARE indeed slower than most other ships, and their damage type sucks vs armor. Every single ship in eve has its purpose, and tech 2 ships are more specialized in their fields. A ship is not broken if it doesn't work for something that wasn't meant for its intended usage.** Stop expecting your recon ships to be heavy duty combat ships. Eve would be boring if everything was perfectly balanced. There would be no satisfaction in killing something that was "eft" better than you.

Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.23 13:10:00 - [51] Originally by: Elurilmar A ship is not broken if it doesn't work for something that wasn't meant for its intended usage. gotta agree with this but the inverse is also true, if a ship not designed for a purpose it outperforming ships designed for that purpose then something is broken. which is why I think they should look at things like alpha, speed and agility. The only reason I will bring up ehp or dps is to show that things are as they should be on that area with the high dps races having high dps and whatnot. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Elurilmar	Posted - 2009.01.23 13:22:00 - [52] Also keep in mind that nobody is forced to fly a race's ships. I started out caldari, and I have the most fun flying Amarr and then Minmatar ships. At the OP, one cannot look just at DPS, HP, and Tank. Cap, ranges, speed, alpha, drones, EW and Nos/Neuts all come into play in a battle. Resistances too. One cannot look at a ship based on race and judge it, you will never know what is fitted against you. When I fly amarr, I actually have a difficult time tracking thier faster ships and with cap issues.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.23 13:32:00 - [53] Love Minmatar, no matter what the stats are. They are fun ships to fly if you have good skills and come up with some imaginative setups. Having said that, I think the Rapier/Huginn should get a bonus to webber strength now that they changed the effectiveness of webbers. _______________
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.01.23 16:15:00 - [54] Originally by: Elurilmar Also keep in mind that nobody is forced to fly a race's ships. I started out caldari, and I have the most fun flying Amarr and then Minmatar ships. At the OP, one cannot look just at DPS, HP, and Tank. Cap, ranges, speed, alpha, drones, EW and Nos/Neuts all come into play in a battle. Resistances too. One cannot look at a ship based on race and judge it, you will never know what is fitted against you. When I fly amarr, I actually have a difficult time tracking thier faster ships and with cap issues. True I am not forced to fly minmatar only but it was a choice I made when i started Eve and I like to stick by with my choices. From the description it seemed minmatar where the least technological race so from that i thought it would shoot with big guns and huge tanks and leave the technical stuff to the other races. alas it isnt so, still i love the sound which artillery makes :). I do like the minmatar race, and I will train for minmatar dreads and carriers even if I know they suck. I just hope CCP will help minmatar a bit so they will be as good as the other races, also in the larger ship department. My Mining/moneymaking alt flies gallente though, very good combo with mining ince you already have some drone skills. Domi rocks btw :)
Meha Mott Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency	Posted - 2009.01.23 17:40:00 - [55] Edited by: Meha Mott on 23/01/2009 17:41:15 One main problem for minmatar is, the so much loved versatility, because if you nerf anything here you also nerf Minmatar. Nerf missile - Caldary and Minmatar, Nerf Drones - Gallente and minmatar, Nerf Speed - Minmatar most and a lesser degree all other, Boost Ehp - fine for Amar - least for Minmatar because all about % boost Boost Cap - fine for Amar - least for Minmatar In my opinion the Def's and the balancing team in most cases are looking for a easy and fast solution, so often the minmatar getting the short stick. Want an example ? Abbadon Mass 103.200.000 kg , - Tempest Mass 103.300.000 kg Abbadon Shield 7000 HP , - Tempest Shield 6954 HP Abbadon Armor 8500 HP , - Tempest Armor 6211 HP So we have a Tier 3 BS with (reasonable) more hp but lower mass than a Tier 2 BS Sorry for my bad english
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.23 17:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Meha Mott So we have a Tier 3 BS with (reasonable) more hp but lower mass than a Tier 2 BS You might want to check agility and speed differences between two compared to their status quo pre-QR. Higher mass with lower agility mod and high top speed is quite a bit better than, say, lower mass, higher agility mod and okayish top speed ;) I'd say that from POV of flat numbers Minnies are slightly inferior atm(well, more than slightly in some cases, but it's not as dramatic as it's seen on these boards). What I like is most of Minnie ships get more out of skilled piloting and better tactical awareness than ships of other races. Oh yes, versatility sucks if you just prefer to win via numbers, on the other hand it allows lots of interesting options in PvP
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Jalif - Most Vertaistile ships (your enemy NEVER knows how you have fitted your ship) THIS IS NOT AN ADVANTAGE FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:03:00 - [58] Minmatar will suck until the next round of nerfs, at which point something will suck more, until the next round of nerfs, at which point minmatar will suck again. Let's just fix tech 2 large arty. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony Item Database
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Pwett Minmatar will suck until the next round of nerfs, at which point something will suck more, until the next round of nerfs, at which point minmatar will suck again. Let's just fix tech 2 large arty. I fly both (well, i also have toons that fly gallente and caldari). Yes, the real problem is the weapons not the ships. Clip size needs to be increased for projectile. The rate of fire needs a slight boost. That being said, the Tempest could use a role (and Megathron as well). It could be the fleet sniper. Give it a falloff bonus maybe instead of a tracking bonus. Then it would have Falcon/Rook hitting ability like the Rokh and Apoc. Regardless, anyone who plays this game ends up liking certain ships more for aesthetics and other non-EFT related reasons than their hypothetical performance in a very rare one-on-one. I love the Munnin, do not like the Zealot. Minmatar was doing quite well and Amarr was terrible. Now many people are gaga over Amarr. I really don't see a change, cap is still a huge problem with Amarr ships. Learn to fly multiple races. You become nerf proof. And when some ships are eventually buffed/given a role, it is icing on the cake (like what happened to the Apoc). Don't give up on Minmatar, but also don't put all your eggs in any one basket.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Lili Lu That being said, the Tempest could use a role (and Megathron as well). It could be the fleet sniper. Give it a falloff bonus maybe instead of a tracking bonus. Then it would have Falcon/Rook hitting ability like the Rokh and Apoc. Lol, what? Makes me wonder if you fly Tempest at all Oh well, you're going to say it's just bad wording

Dray Caldari The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:04:00 - [61] Edited by: Dray on 23/01/2009 20:07:11 Although amarr are pretty pwn atm the minmatar ships are really the same as they have always been, as has been said in this thread already the smaller ships are still fine and the larger take a high skill point pilot (with ability) to get the best from them. My biggest grievance with them is what it has always been, no defined tank for specific ships, let them be multi-choice in terms of weapon system and tank, the mixed weap systems is fine, thats a skill point issue, but tie the individual ships down to a specific type of tank, for example the typhoon has 4 mids and 7 lows and higher shield hp, the tempest not as bad but still less mids than lows and higher shield hp. The difference is small but its always boils my **** that something as simple and obvious as this hasn't been addressed, it isnt rocket science. I appreciate that the tempest as an artillery platform benefits from the extra mid slot in the sniper role, but lets be honest the 4 mid slot bs still play the sniper role fine so it could be addressed. Truth be told, I miss flying the tempest, but ultimately the other races do just as well in the way me and my corp fly our ships so its better to fly a different race.
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:05:00 - [62] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Lili Lu That being said, the Tempest could use a role (and Megathron as well). It could be the fleet sniper. Give it a falloff bonus maybe instead of a tracking bonus. Then it would have Falcon/Rook hitting ability like the Rokh and Apoc. Lol, what? Makes me wonder if you fly Tempest at all Oh well, you're going to say it's just bad wording Yeah, I don't really fly the Tempest much. I do fly the Phoon quite a bit. Should have said damage bonus. Anyway, what I'm saying is make the Tempest a fleet sniper. Give it 200+ km hitting ability with arty. CCP seems to like falloff for Minmatar. An optimal bonus would be nice, but with arty it just has less effect/utility (see Muninn). A tempest with a range bonus would have a role like the Apoc and Rokh.
To mare	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Dray Edited by: Dray on 23/01/2009 20:07:11 Although amarr are pretty pwn atm the minmatar ships are really the same as they have always been, as has been said in this thread already the smaller ships are still fine and the larger take a high skill point pilot (with ability) to get the best from them. My biggest grievance with them is what it has always been, no defined tank for specific ships, let them be multi-choice in terms of weapon system and tank, the mixed weap systems is fine, thats a skill point issue, but tie the individual ships down to a specific type of tank, for example the typhoon has 4 mids and 7 lows and higher shield hp, the tempest not as bad but still less mids than lows and higher shield hp. The difference is small but its always boils my **** that something as simple and obvious as this hasn't been addressed, it isnt rocket science. I appreciate that the tempest as an artillery platform benefits from the extra mid slot in the sniper role, but lets be honest the 4 mid slot bs still play the sniper role fine so it could be addressed. Truth be told, I miss flying the tempest, but ultimately the other races do just as well in the way me and my corp fly our ships so its better to fly a different race. minmatar ships ARE NOT wha they always been since all arty ships got nerfed by HP buffs.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:14:00 - [64] Originally by: Lili Lu Yeah, I don't really fly the Tempest much. I do fly the Phoon quite a bit. Should have said damage bonus. Anyway, what I'm saying is make the Tempest a fleet sniper. Give it 200+ km hitting ability with arty. CCP seems to like falloff for Minmatar. An optimal bonus would be nice, but with arty it just has less effect/utility (see Muninn). A tempest with a range bonus would have a role like the Apoc and Rokh. I don't fly Tempest, but iirc optimal still benefits it more than falloff for sniping duty. And if you drop damage bonus then it ends up having very low alpha, not to mention it would cease to exist as AC-boat, really(which is still the case with rof+falloff bonus tbh, since DPS would be quite underwhelming).
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:41:00 - [65] Edited by: Lili Lu on 23/01/2009 20:41:54 Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Lili Lu Yeah, I don't really fly the Tempest much. I do fly the Phoon quite a bit. Should have said damage bonus. Anyway, what I'm saying is make the Tempest a fleet sniper. Give it 200+ km hitting ability with arty. CCP seems to like falloff for Minmatar. An optimal bonus would be nice, but with arty it just has less effect/utility (see Muninn). A tempest with a range bonus would have a role like the Apoc and Rokh. I don't fly Tempest, but iirc optimal still benefits it more than falloff for sniping duty. And if you drop damage bonus then it ends up having very low alpha, not to mention it would cease to exist as AC-boat, really(which is still the case with rof+falloff bonus tbh, since DPS would be quite underwhelming). Well ok then you figure out a change the bonuses to give the Tempest a role. The Phoon is better for close range pvp, the Mael is better in pve. I'm suggesting some change to the Tempest bonuses to make it a good tier 2 BS sniper like the Apoc. Anyway, my main points were that Minmatar does not suck and Amarr is not so great as much as many people seem to think now. And, train two races anyway to not be stuck in a perceived suck race.
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:45:00 - [66] Originally by: hellsknights No matter what EFT says or DPS/TANK. A ship is only as good as its pilot and fit. Plaine and simple. Agreed
SomeHardLovin Rain of Fire	Posted - 2009.01.23 21:38:00 - [67] Originally by: Xol'tan Edited by: Xol''tan on 22/01/2009 13:46:49 It probably is time lasers got a Nerf high optimal blaster dps at mid ranges with instant ammo changes is just to much add to that the largest tanks in the game and it start to be quite overpowerd, before QR turret range was not as much a advantage. HAhahah I love this... I remember 12 month ago when every Amarr pilot was screaming "BUFF AMARR!! They have been weak for SO long!!" .. 12 months later.. "Nerf amarr!". Awsomeness. --- "Some say the best weapon is the weapon you never have to fire. I say.. the best weapon is the weapon you only have to fire once!"
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:14:00 - [68] Originally by: SomeHardLovin Originally by: Xol'tan Edited by: Xol''tan on 22/01/2009 13:46:49 It probably is time lasers got a Nerf high optimal blaster dps at mid ranges with instant ammo changes is just to much add to that the largest tanks in the game and it start to be quite overpowerd, before QR turret range was not as much a advantage. HAhahah I love this... I remember 12 month ago when every Amarr pilot was screaming "BUFF AMARR!! They have been weak for SO long!!" .. 12 months later.. "Nerf amarr!". Awsomeness. That would be because CCP have no concept of balance. If ccp were to enter into a stone sculpture competition, they would only bring a sledge hammer and some dynamite. Its always going to be FAIL!
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:42:00 - [69] Originally by: Lili Lu Edited by: Lili Lu on 23/01/2009 20:41:54 Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Lili Lu Yeah, I don't really fly the Tempest much. I do fly the Phoon quite a bit. Should have said damage bonus. Anyway, what I'm saying is make the Tempest a fleet sniper. Give it 200+ km hitting ability with arty. CCP seems to like falloff for Minmatar. An optimal bonus would be nice, but with arty it just has less effect/utility (see Muninn). A tempest with a range bonus would have a role like the Apoc and Rokh. I don't fly Tempest, but iirc optimal still benefits it more than falloff for sniping duty. And if you drop damage bonus then it ends up having very low alpha, not to mention it would cease to exist as AC-boat, really(which is still the case with rof+falloff bonus tbh, since DPS would be quite underwhelming). Well ok then you figure out a change the bonuses to give the Tempest a role. The Phoon is better for close range pvp, the Mael is better in pve. I'm suggesting some change to the Tempest bonuses to make it a good tier 2 BS sniper like the Apoc. Anyway, my main points were that Minmatar does not suck and Amarr is not so great as much as many people seem to think now. And, train two races anyway to not be stuck in a perceived suck race. 20% bonus to dmg 5% penelty to rof per level. gives it an alpha of around 5000 with tremor without nerfing it's dmg much (~4% dps loss I think), and it's not trying to be a imitation of a amarr/caldari sniper. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Bruce Scythe	Posted - 2009.01.24 12:08:00 - [70] I see Minmatar as the pirate race. Sure we aren't good in the blob warfare where everything is actually decided, but we have mostly the best ships for pirating. Rifter, Rupture, Thrasher, Cane (just to name the T1 pwnage).

Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:09:00 - [71] Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr Originally by: hellsknights No matter what EFT says or DPS/TANK. A ship is only as good as its pilot and fit. Plaine and simple. Agreed True and false. True in the sense that pilot and fit are also significant factors in determining the outcome of any a fight. False in the sense that those factors should affect ship balance. When base efficiency is measured, some ships fare better than others. While good piloting or fittings may be enough to overcome the difference, that does not mean that the ship itself is not inferior. When fittings and pilot skills are equal, ship base difference matters.
Thercon Jair Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:32:00 - [72] Well, I did some further "research" on the matter and came to the conclusion that, if DD proofness is required, the Maelstrom beats the Tempest hands down. And, if you outfit the ship right it outperforms most other fleet ships at certain ranges. However, it won't be effective past 200km, which is about the maximum range of artilleries, considering optimal+falloff. You can't really increase your range further as every additional optimal range module gets stacking penalised to death (152km with 3 optimal mods/rigs, 162 with 5. 10km optimal through the use of 2 mod/rigslots -> not worth it)
Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:48:00 - [73] are I'm so confused :/ Can't find out if i should go and train amarr BS and then keep training in minmatar for BC and lower or just fully mini. :S
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:55:00 - [74] Edited by: Orakkus on 24/01/2009 16:55:54 Originally by: Thats Mining Well. I have been playing minmatar for some month. Now I tryed to fit an amarr BS with lvl 5 all skills. and a minmatar BS all @ 5 skills. And in tank, DPS and HP it owned minmatar bs totally. So is it just me or own a race as amarr (for exempel), minmatar? Because right now im thinking a lot to change from minmatar ships to amarr. Going back to the OP's question.. and perhaps to summarize the myriad of comments both abstract and real. Point One: EFT is great for determining how to best fit a ship. It is a terrible tool for real combat comparisions. Point Two: Understand that there are four "viewpoints" in this discussion: EFT Warrior - The viewpoint that stats are the best way to determine the true value of a ship. The problem with this is that it assumes every pilot you meet will have level V skills. They don't. It also assumes that all the pilots you meet will be equally smart. They aren't. 1 vs 1 - The viewpoint that one on one combat best determines what ship is best. The problem with this is that it happens, but pretty rarely, and usually its done by pirates who attack when they have the clear advantage, not when its "equal". Small Fleet - This can range from two ships to less than a hundred depending on your point of view. However, for the most part, you will generally start out in fleets of five to twenty depending of course on your corporation. This tends to show the closest to "true" value of ships because its most common of combat. Large fleet - These are fleets with 100+ ships and are pretty much slugfests where the only thing that matters is EHP and DPS, because with a hundred ships shooting at one target.. it tends not to last long. Point three: Strategy and Tactics will beat superior technology every time. Nuff said there. I'll take on your question (since everyone has had a chance at it too)and you being focused on BS I'll stick with that. Minmatar battleships do suffer from some distinct disadvantages. The first being that aspects that make Minmatar ships like Hurricane and smaller outstanding - speed, agility, versatility, don't translate very well into the battleship classes and above (and are impossible to put a value to in EFT). The second is that far too many pilots try to force the Minmatar ships into roles that they aren't really meant for... an odd consequence of this is that those ships considered the "best" tend to be ones that can be fit in those terms (if people REALLY understood the value of Target Painters for example, the Bellicose would be considered a very popular E-war support ship... especially in fleets with lots of Minmatar and Caldari ships). The third was mentioned already in that due to the nature of the Minmatar pilot needing to be versatile (which means more SP too) a nerf to anything will affect Minmatar. Now, that's not to say that the BSes are worthless, far from it. It just means that you need more SP and different tactics to really bring out the strengths of their battleships. For example, the Tempest is truly a marvel in versatility and flexibility. It is equally good as a shield or armor tank (be that active or passive). Its good both as a close range DPS ship as well as a long-range (though not real long range) sniper. In the end, if you don't mind losing a few ships to get the feel of a Minmatar ship, then its a good albeit difficult (i.e. fun) way to go. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Anddeh McNab Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Thats Mining thankfor all the usefull answers. i think i will go after amarr ships from now on. i only got 1 mio gun skills so it wil take about 20 days then im on the same lvl with amarr as i am wit mini :) sigh Breaks my heart when people discredit an entire race simply on what EFT tells them. Usually due to some complete fail setups. A well fitted Mael will omnomnomnom it's way through missions perfectly fine. And you know what? So will whatever floating-church Amarrians happen to use. Stick with the duct-tape. Damn god botherers.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:54:00 - [76] Minmatarr have the most awesome ships in the game and everyone secretly wants to be a pro uber phoon pilot. But its such a hard road nobody bothers. I wanted to make a minmatar alt to train up ships for, but i failed. I made this forum alt instead.
Taipan Leviathan Dark Star Confederation Magnum Opus.	Posted - 2009.01.25 20:44:00 - [77] This is Not Eve Fitting Tool in space.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:17:00 - [78] Edited by: Atius Tirawa on 25/01/2009 23:21:27 Originally by: Typhado3 Originally by: Lili Lu Edited by: Lili Lu on 23/01/2009 20:41:54 Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Lili Lu Yeah, I don't really fly the Tempest much. I do fly the Phoon quite a bit. Should have said damage bonus. Anyway, what I'm saying is make the Tempest a fleet sniper. Give it 200+ km hitting ability with arty. CCP seems to like falloff for Minmatar. An optimal bonus would be nice, but with arty it just has less effect/utility (see Muninn). A tempest with a range bonus would have a role like the Apoc and Rokh. I don't fly Tempest, but iirc optimal still benefits it more than falloff for sniping duty. And if you drop damage bonus then it ends up having very low alpha, not to mention it would cease to exist as AC-boat, really(which is still the case with rof+falloff bonus tbh, since DPS would be quite underwhelming). Well ok then you figure out a change the bonuses to give the Tempest a role. The Phoon is better for close range pvp, the Mael is better in pve. I'm suggesting some change to the Tempest bonuses to make it a good tier 2 BS sniper like the Apoc. Anyway, my main points were that Minmatar does not suck and Amarr is not so great as much as many people seem to think now. And, train two races anyway to not be stuck in a perceived suck race. 20% bonus to dmg 5% penelty to rof per level. gives it an alpha of around 5000 with tremor without nerfing it's dmg much (~4% dps loss I think), and it's not trying to be a imitation of a amarr/caldari sniper. bingo - high alpha needs to get higher, but the dps needs to remain the same. A very slight buff to the Howitzer line of artillery with a range buff of 5% or so (not per level, just a flat, unbonused 5% increce in optimal) If you want to train for battleships, Amarr or Caldari. If you want to be a focused sniper in hac/roaming gangs, Caldari or Amarr. I fly the tempest and I like its 10 round clip, its pathetic locking range and the low EHP/DPS because I like Artillery. Thats sentimental. . .but if you are not invested - don't train them first. Remember, you can always train it later. . .
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:26:00 - [79] Minmatar gets some nice sub-battleship options. They're fast, agile, low signature and have ability to vary damage types. That makes them actually quite effective in 'real' combat (e.g. not epeen DPS numbers or anything silly like that). The problem is, as ship sizes increase, the relative value of mobility diminishes - the fact that a tempest is small and fast for a battleship... well, is mostly irrelevant. The same's true at capital class. Before that - BC On down, the ships are very nice indeed.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:28:00 - [80] Originally by: Bruce Scythe I see Minmatar as the pirate race. Sure we aren't good in the blob warfare where everything is actually decided, but we have mostly the best ships for pirating. Rifter, Rupture, Thrasher, Cane (just to name the T1 pwnage). Typhoon is probably also the best battlecruiser in the game :)

bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:37:00 - [81] Dont forget the bellicose! If i were going to fly minmatar, i think i would just stay in a bellicose until i had finished the decades of intense mental and physical training required to fly a typhoon.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.26 02:12:00 - [82] acs are alright, maybe tiny boost, arty needs some love, and I think some of the hp distributions could use some work, aka the tempest should have more armor than shields. little stuff like that
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:05:00 - [83] I like having shield tanks on Minmatar. The only reason people fit armor tanks to Minmatar is because everyone else fits armor. The only reason people fit armor is because you need the midslots to tackle. After all, everyone needs some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.26 09:58:00 - [84] Originally by: James Lyrus Minmatar gets some nice sub-battleship options. They're fast, agile, low signature and have ability to vary damage types. That makes them actually quite effective in 'real' combat (e.g. not epeen DPS numbers or anything silly like that). The problem is, as ship sizes increase, the relative value of mobility diminishes - the fact that a tempest is small and fast for a battleship... well, is mostly irrelevant. The same's true at capital class. Before that - BC On down, the ships are very nice indeed. Ok I only started using EFT about 2 months ago so I'm not 100% sure on how it works. But from what I've seen minmatar ships are only a couple % more agile than the other ships and in many cases are tie best agility..... am I doing something wrong or is the whole minmatar have vastly superior agility thing a massive exaggeration? Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Bruce Scythe I see Minmatar as the pirate race. Sure we aren't good in the blob warfare where everything is actually decided, but we have mostly the best ships for pirating. Rifter, Rupture, Thrasher, Cane (just to name the T1 pwnage). Typhoon is probably also the best battlecruiser in the game :) i'm assuming you mean hurricane or bs. In which case it's arguable but they are both very nice. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
H0RZA	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:42:00 - [85] Nope, you just missed the joke.


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