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Lucia Wilber
Minmatar The Steel Vipers
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Posted - 2009.01.22 06:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 22/01/2009 06:03:10 Sorry if this is elsewhere, but I dug through the available documents for a bit and couldn't find anything definitive.
So that I understand it, all ships in EVE that can be piloted by players are specially designed so that a capsule can be plugged into them and all ship systems can be controlled by the pod. Lore-wise, does that mean that all ships, even the largest, have no crews? Are the ships in EVE all single-pilot operated with a bunch of automated systems, or do the bigger ships such as battleships, carriers, and Titans all have engineering crews and whatnot?
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Savasta
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Posted - 2009.01.22 07:20:00 -
[2]
As far as I can tell, no. Capsules are retrofitted to ships. Normal, non capsule ships are crewed as you would expect in a Sci-fi, with a captain and crew. And all but frigates have crews in capsule ships. The chronicle "Hands of a Killer" shows some detail on the crew of a capsule ship. The short story "Theodicy" shows some detail on the crews of Navy ships. |
Will Cassidy
Caldari Defcon One Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.22 20:06:00 -
[3]
Small ships like frigates can be piloted by a capsuleer alone. But large ships like BS or Titans require hundreds (or even thousands) of people.
"War is fun, beating children is fun too." |
Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.22 20:22:00 -
[4]
Oh, god. This again?
There are crews.
Pods replace bridge personnel.
Not everything can be automated.
/thread. -----
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Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.23 06:51:00 -
[5]
Hm, my prediction was almost correct. I did notice that it's the monthly time for these threads, but though it'd spawn at the "hijacking ships" thread. In any case, here's a link to the previous one.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=731188 |
Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.01.26 06:24:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai Oh, god. This again?
There are crews.
Pods replace bridge personnel.
Not everything can be automated.
/thread.
This. It has been debated and pondered, but there is 100% definitive confirmation from CCP on multiple occasions (including on these forums) that all capsule-fitted ships larger than frigates do, in fact, have crews.
The pilot and his capsule replace the bridge and its officers. There are still people doing maintenance, repair, cleaning, cargo organization, reloading, etc.
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Atharax
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Posted - 2009.01.26 12:21:00 -
[7]
Actually the original idea was that the pod replaced all crew in all ships, advocating from some players who wanted their ships to be crewed for storyline and Rp reasons made CCP introduce the idea of crews for larger ship classes. Even a RL friend of mine (no longer in game) wanted the ships to be crewed for the fact that there should be a reason for the lights in the ports of all ships. So the confusion stems from the fact that the idea about the pod was changed. Now that I am a very conservative Ni-Kunni I havn't moved on with the modern times at all. And in addition never have payed any wages to a crew either. So the idea of a crew is nothing I ever will mention if I would write any storyline here. |
Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.26 19:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Atharax Actually the original idea was that the pod replaced all crew in all ships, advocating from some players who wanted their ships to be crewed for storyline and Rp reasons made CCP introduce the idea of crews for larger ship classes.
Can you have a source for this? We have pretty old comments about crew (as well as some old schematics about ships having crew numbers). I do actually remember the contrary being mentioned, that ships were designed to have crew but it was just not implemented for some reasons (possibly practicality). Admitted, the oldest scetches in the art book show no UI for crew, so I'd actually find the contrary comment unlikely, unless "Drawing Board" style ideas are counted.
The Elite chronicle (dated July 2000) does not comment on the issue, neither does the Vicious Cycle (July 2001). Hands of the Killer was, I assume from an old post from Discorporation, written to clarify this: Though the CCP date is 2005-07-14, relatively late. The Jovian Wetgrave doesn't have a date, nor does Polyvessel Pilot: Capsule Cleared. However, the art style on the Wetgrave matches the style used by HellGremlin's Endless Corporation fiction, which would date it to late beta. The Wetgrave does explicitly state that a "small crew" is needed for "a ship this large" (the cruiser they are on). Slightly later it is mentioned to allow the pilot to "easily handle the jobs it takes 5 or 10 people to do normally". Assuming this is prior to release, we may assume that in the "finished" product ships larger than frigates are supposed to have crews. |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.26 20:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Atharax Actually the original idea was that the pod replaced all crew in all ships, advocating from some players who wanted their ships to be crewed for storyline and Rp reasons made CCP introduce the idea of crews for larger ship classes. Even a RL friend of mine (no longer in game) wanted the ships to be crewed for the fact that there should be a reason for the lights in the ports of all ships. So the confusion stems from the fact that the idea about the pod was changed. Now that I am a very conservative Ni-Kunni I havn't moved on with the modern times at all. And in addition never have payed any wages to a crew either. So the idea of a crew is nothing I ever will mention if I would write any storyline here.
Crews on board Eve ships are something I've researched extensively as part of the writing I've done... This is incorrect, there are old images dating from castor, possibly even pre-castor showing a third angle projection of a selection of the hulls from in game, including their gross tonnage, dimensions and crew count.
As far as I'm aware CCP have always intended for capsuleer fitted vessels to contain crew, the capsuleer simply takes over command and direct control of most systems, where the crew are responsible for keeping things running for the egger to utilise.
Originally by: Savasta As far as I can tell, no. Capsules are retrofitted to ships. Normal, non capsule ships are crewed as you would expect in a Sci-fi, with a captain and crew. And all but frigates have crews in capsule ships. The chronicle "Hands of a Killer" shows some detail on the crew of a capsule ship. The short story "Theodicy" shows some detail on the crews of Navy ships.
This, as far as I'm aware is correct.
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Atharax
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Posted - 2009.01.27 04:46:00 -
[10]
The story 'The Jovian Wetgrave' describes the hand over of Pod Technology, before that regular pilots in Eve space couldn't have pod equipped ships of course. :p
In December 2004 the same story was used as one argument that there was NO crew on our spaceships. And the argument raged quite intense in the forums back then with comments like.
"Before discussing the crew issue, plz read the background on one man controlled ships aka pod vessels."
And that very month December 2004 Alexi Borizkova said the following:
"That was, what, seventy years ago? The more recent sources imply that the ships are totally uncrewed now. I honestly don't think CCP is stupid enough to try to pass us some line of bull that say us there are scads of crewmembers out there that file onto our ships at every station they are built at, for no pay, to go to their deaths."
This not to bring the poster or the old thread back into the discussion here. Believe me it isnt, only for reference. I provided it with the only intention to show you that this subject is really really old indeed, and that it pops up now and again.
So as far as I am conserned you can imagine and roleplay that you ships are manned with as many crew as you like, as long as we're not required to buy on oxygen, food and other things for maintainance, nor have to pay wages, I will continue to view my ships as entirely robotized with me as the only passenger and pilot. Yet I wont attempt to press that view on anybody else as long as you dont try to convert me. :D That it have become common here on the forum to discuss crews again is noted. But there was no consensus on the matter in 2004, and there still is no consensus now either. |
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Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.27 06:49:00 -
[11]
Well, there's always people saying that "there is no crew on your ship" or "there's no crew on my ship - I've got robots/automation/trained fedos so I won't cause the death of some 5000-odd people when I lose my ship". Partial reason for this might be because people want it to be a good world where all is fine and well. As for consensus, I still have yet to see a solid prime fiction source from CCP saying that there are many larger-than-frigate ships that are pod piloted and do not have crew - all of our given sources are exactly the contrary. Against that, player fiction simply doesn't count.
And when it comes to the ingame part, the capsuleer apparently doesn't need to eat or breathe, either. Face it, you're a zombie. (Contact IzzyChan to see if Naqam is recruiting.) |
Stitcher
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2009.01.27 11:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mithfindel As for consensus, I still have yet to see a solid prime fiction source from CCP saying that there are many larger-than-frigate ships that are pod piloted and do not have crew
Here you go - "Hands of a killer".
And here's another one - "Forsaken Ruins". For the crew references, start at page 4.
I really don't get why this is a recurring question and bone of contention. It's not like it's confusingly worded or anything. |
Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.27 12:40:00 -
[13]
Um, Sticher - I would like to emphasize the word "not" in the part of my previous post you quoted. Personally, I do think the intent is that ships do have crew, regardless of a pod ('cept frigates), but Atharax does continue mentioning that they should not: Now I have NOT seen any prime fiction to support that. |
Silver Night
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:12:00 -
[14]
So, what would it take to have an Eve Fiction FAQ at the top of this place? So that it doesn't get cluttered with this BS every month or so. Seriously. I mean, there aren't that many posts in this forum to begin with, we don't need 80 'Do they have crew?' repeats. |
Atharax
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mithfindel
Partial reason for this might be because people want it to be a good world where all is fine and well. ..... Against that, player fiction simply doesn't count.
Heh, you might be on to something there. That some players don't like the idea of a crew for the reason that they would have to take care of the mails from distraught wifes, mothers, fathers, husbands etc when a ship have been lost. Yet I lost a number of ships and never gotten any such so far....
Player fiction and advocating on this forum did indeed change the canon, but as I say below, im not intending to get into any lengthy argument about this.
Originally by: Silver Night So, what would it take to have an Eve Fiction FAQ at the top of this place? So that it doesn't get cluttered with this BS every month or so. Seriously. I mean, there aren't that many posts in this forum to begin with, we don't need 80 'Do they have crew?' repeats.
Yes this discussion have been repeated since the launch of the game. (Actually, it started in beta.) feel free to read back on the year of 2004 if you like. Besides to mention my different view, my post was merely to tell that the 'lore' for Eve have changed and the purpose of my post was to show that to be the case. And this is as far as I remember the only time I have discussed this matter on the forum and I will not pursue this subject further.
My post was in fact mainly directed at the OP, so to make this entirely clear my message to Lucia Wilber is this: Do as you like, crew or no crew, no worries!
Taedium sanus ut verum quod quondam puter sub is jugis oppugno. Sui temen simulatio omne in ea decorum exterminat. |
Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:32:00 -
[16]
Ah, well nowadays we actually do have a hint that even larger ships could be unmanned except the pilot (there's a single example in the Empyrean Age novel), but other than that there's simply no question about most ships having a crew. The old comment is no different than the monthly "EVE is set thousands of years in the future, I don't think crews are needed".
Also some reason for those "no crew" comments might be that the game scales the view on the size of your ship: So when you fly a battleship, it and the other battleships look pretty normal-sized. On a fight you can't really zoom in to enjoy the scenes, though I do remember when we did take a group screenshot of the corp's ships and went for a tight formation, oh boy that Armageddon was huge compared to the cruisers around it. So, even if they feel "normal-sized" when you're in one, "actually" the battleships are larger than any oceangoing vessel built by man this far (i.e. CE 2009).
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Silver Night
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 11:49:00 -
[17]
@ Atharax:
Yes, I've been around since Beta, I well realize how long this has been going on. Which is why I advocate a FAQ Sticky. Really, it should have been put to rest with Hands of a Killer, a chronicle with, as one of its purposes - as stated by the author - the resolution of this debate.
As to people RPing as they would like, that is all well and good until they try to interact with other players. That is where some kind of consistency suddenly becomes important. There are certain reasonable flexibilities in the structure of the fiction, as well as the holes that players can fill on their own where nothing is defined by CCP. That ships - particularly large ships - have crew is less subject to this flexibility than most, seeing as it is something that is supported both by several references in prime fiction and direct statements by the people who create that fiction for and at CCP.
@Mith:
The problem is that Eve inadequately conveys scale. To be fair, it would be very hard. The ways people judge scale are largely unavailable in space. There are no landmarks, no fogginess with the distance, no fixed point of view or awareness of ones own size even. It isn't a problem I would care to tackle personally, even coming up with a way. Perhaps though if we are lucky, at some point someone in graphics at CCP will decide to take it on. --------------
The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.01.28 14:26:00 -
[18]
Scale should be sorted out when ambulation arrives. I look forward to looking at the orca from the perspective of a 6 foot tall male just to see what a 15km long ship really looks like.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 17:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Verone on 28/01/2009 17:35:26
So... you have a ship with no crew...
You're in the middle of a fight and one of your 1400mm howwies jams, or maybe a shell strikes the engineering decks of your vessel, penetrating into the atmosphere sealed compartments there, and badly damages the control system that links your pod to your propulsion systems. The "robot" or "drone" assigned to this task has a critical malfunction, overheats and breaks down. The reserve was destoyed in the firefight.
What happens? You're enveloped in psuedo-placenta fluid, in a pressurised fullerine shell. It's not like you can stroll out and fix it. Even with so much power, a capsuleer is venerable, even if well protected.
Fact of the matter is, ships need crews.
Today, we have the processing power allow a computer system to be programmed to fly a passenger airliner completely unsupervised. Amusingly enough we don't, because there are still some tasks that NEED to be performed by a human being. The human brain has something any machine does not, the capacity to learn freely, the capacity for conscious thought of it's own rather than being stuck to a page of code, and the common sense to use what skills the individual has to overcome a problem and to think outside the box.
Ships need crews, the fact that they're not part of a game mechanic is irellevant. Tibus heth, Jamyl Sarum, Sansha Kuvakei, Doriam KorAzor and a host of other characters are backstory, nothing more... yet they still contribite to the game and are part of it. As are the HUDREDS OF TRILLIONS of people who populate the New Eden cluster, living planetside. So what, they don't exist? Lights burn bright on planets for no reason?
Immersion is key when you get involved with backstory, and just because it's a case of "K I DON'T HAVE TO FEED THEM AND PAY THEM AS AN INGAME ACTION" it doesn't mean they're not there.
For instance, take a look at these selection of images from a load I grabbed from the early Eve Website... I grabbed them around the time of second genesis/castor... they should explain a lot.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
To show but a few
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2009.01.29 15:21:00 -
[20]
Curses, browser ate my first reply, short version now:
The rifter blueprint shows 1 crew member, meaning that those saying "everything but frigates has crew" are wrong, since you would still need one guy to run around for on the fly repairs.
If those blueprints are still valid and not yet in evelopedia I think they should get a spot in there. Together with other old saved info that may still be valid. |
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Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.29 19:59:00 -
[21]
Some frigates do have crew. The similar pic about the Punisher lists three.
Also noteworthy, the capsuleer might be counted as a crew member which would actually bring the Rifter as a capsuleer-only ship. That'd make the Punisher have the commander and two crewmembers. |
Silver Night
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.01.30 00:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mithfindel Some frigates do have crew. The similar pic about the Punisher lists three.
Also noteworthy, the capsuleer might be counted as a crew member which would actually bring the Rifter as a capsuleer-only ship. That'd make the Punisher have the commander and two crewmembers.
This is usually the interpretation of that, yeah. Which makes sense. Only about the size of a 747 after all, very small for an eve ship. --------------
The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
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Veron Daerth
Amarr Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2009.02.01 02:18:00 -
[23]
Didnt one of the EVE-News stories do a Scope interview thing with some of the crew of various ships in the last Alliance Tournament?
If I remember right, one of the "interview-ees" was an electronics tech on a stealth bomber. He "died" in the tournament, when his ship was blown. I remember this because I was particularly impressed with the wording CCP (or whoever wrote the article for them) used to describe his death. Something along the lines of " Bob Smith (cant remember his name) tragically died when the bomber he served aboard was blown up.. blah blah.. he remained at his post, keeping the launchers in operation and firing even as the ship came apart around him."
Very nice useage of words there.
Really though, others have said it best. In real life, you will never be able to replace the human being with a robot, if only because the robot cant use intuition, be creative, jury rig things, or do the ten thousand other things a human can.
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Etria Issen
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.01 06:11:00 -
[24]
This is actually something that has been bugging me since day 1 when the friend who got me to play EVE (Well I considered it years ago, but I had dial up then so... *ahem*). I can understand a frigate could probably be capsule-controlled. Some frigates in EVE seem to look almost fighter-sized (without a scale though it's tough to say for sure). But then once I started to think into the larger ships, especially Titans, it just seems impossible.
After all if the ships could all be controlled via the pod, couldn't the ship then basically be 99% reinforced armor with only enough empty space to accommodate any weaponry/equipment/etc?
I think the ships do have crews but they're "blue booked". That is they're assumed to be there but they don't have a purpose. While yes CCP could've made you have a "Crew" and "upgrade" them this would add a new level into ship customization, not to mention something you'd need to replace if you get blown up and not to mention having to settle the case of wages.
Perhaps the crews of capsuleer ships are paid by the insurance company or some sort? After all someone saw it fit to allow capsuleers to always get a shiny new ship should they have none. |
Stitcher
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2009.02.01 13:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mithfindel Um, Sticher - I would like to emphasize the word "not" in the part of my previous post you quoted. Personally, I do think the intent is that ships do have crew, regardless of a pod ('cept frigates), but Atharax does continue mentioning that they should not: Now I have NOT seen any prime fiction to support that.
oops. my bad - I misread you.
sorry about that. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:20:00 -
[26]
crews exist but serve no purpose for day to day gameplay. however if writing fiction they can be very important. a really experienced crew could say evac half the ship into the other half, shut down life support for that section and bring the shields and lasers back online when the ship is damaged.
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BioBlog
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Posted - 2009.02.04 14:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: BioBlog on 04/02/2009 14:22:38 Edited by: BioBlog on 04/02/2009 14:21:25
Originally by: Atharax
"That was, what, seventy years ago? The more recent sources imply that the ships are totally uncrewed now. I honestly don't think CCP is stupid enough to try to pass us some line of bull that say us there are scads of crewmembers out there that file onto our ships at every station they are built at, for no pay, to go to their deaths."
Whilst it may go against the canon some players prefer there is no reason that ships are not un-retro fitted by a particular Captain to operate the way he feels his ship should be ran.
My short, Jump! is one variation of using possible Eve tech in this manner. Also fiction doesn't have to be set right now, it can be in the past or future where technology has shifted or not even begun.
There is also the possibility of being conscripted and forced to participate, as they were in the days of sail. The morals of New Eden would certainly allow for this action, some may say that it is required.
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Chris Liath
Gallente The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.15 00:39:00 -
[28]
There's still plenty of crew. Just a little less. A capsule-fitted Megathron, with its 1017 meters, checks in at about 6700 crewmembers, couple of hundred officers. Now, to compare. A Nimitz class carrier at 340 meters has 5700 crewmen. You could safely double that number to get a linear prediction of what a kilometre long modern day vessel would need.
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. |
Korerin Mayul
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Posted - 2009.02.15 21:34:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Korerin Mayul on 15/02/2009 21:34:32 i was kind of hoping that the party line was 'a ship CAN' have a crew.
Ian Banks's culture novels make this point quite well; there his AIs can run the ship, but prefer the company of a small crue even if they are mostly ceremonial.
i would also like to throw another idea im using in some stories im writing: can the capton 'birth' himself inside the ship and walk arrount? - the first story i wrote (turning it into a two part'er) is about korerin swanning about the bridge and getting spooked about not being technically immortal anymore.
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Marine HK4861
Caldari Radical Technologies
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:59:00 -
[30]
Frigates tend not to have crews, or have a very small (2-3 at most) complement. Anything bigger has a crew.
The reason for this is because AI in EVE is not as controllable as they are in the Culture universe, or rather anything sufficiently advanced enough is hostile to humans.
Rogue drones are the results of the Gallente attempt to make an advanced AI and you can see how well they turned out.
If you're asking about the location of the medical clone, then technically yes, with clone vat bays, a capsuleer can move his clone to a suitably fitted capital ship. This isn't simulated in-game though (you can only move jump clones to a capital ship).
With all the possibilities that could go wrong though, I'd personally prefer to have my medical clone in a station under the close supervision of a medical team.
Pilots can walk around when they're not in their pod. Take a look at the upcoming ambulation features and Walking In Station.
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