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Falcon fix idea - never suggested before!

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Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:14:00 - [61] Originally by: ry ry Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 08:56:17you think that could be a solution for the prevalence of high-dps BSs too, just have -20% range per damage mod? that would be rubbish :( Nah, that would be a perfect solution, look at how falcons have an unfair advantage if you do not want to fit eccm. Now dps ships have the same advantage if I dont want to tank my ship, so damage mods need to be rebalanced.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:18:00 - [62] Edited by: ry ry on 24/01/2009 20:19:50 Edited by: ry ry on 24/01/2009 20:18:48 Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: lecrotta Falcons and ecm ships need range as they are chance based unlike other systems. Quoted for absolute truth. Beyond 50-60 KM ALL ewar is chance based. Quoted because you are a are idiot. ECM is the only ewar system that is STILL chance based under 50-60km. ECM is useless when fitted on nonbonused ships, while the others work great on any ship. ECM bonused ships only have ONE bonused ewar system, while all the others have TWO. the other Ewar won't effect all ships though. a missile boat and droneships lol at TDs for example. ECM effects every ship, and as mentioned above, takes it out of the fight. three falcons can basically choose between removing all of a small/med gang's tacklers, or shutting off their DPS. yes you can all fit ECCM but you'll be fitting a module to every ship in your gang to counteract one ship - that was the whole reason speed was nerfed: that you needed a huginn in-gang to combat it. if both gangs have a few falcons it all comes down to who gets the jam in first. ECM is currently overpowered - it needs to be fixed. enjoy your falcon whilst it lasts, but given how long it took to fix speed it won't be for a while.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: ry ry Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 08:56:17you think that could be a solution for the prevalence of high-dps BSs too, just have -20% range per damage mod? that would be rubbish :( Nah, that would be a perfect solution, look at how falcons have an unfair advantage if you do not want to fit eccm. Now dps ships have the same advantage if I dont want to tank my ship, so damage mods need to be rebalanced. falcon pilot?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:28:00 - [64] Originally by: ry ry falcon pilot? Pilot and victim, thats why I see things clearly.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:31:00 - [65] Originally by: Cambarus When TDs reduce the optimal of guns and missiles to 0m, or when a sensor damp makes someone's targetting range 0m, then we can talk about it being unfair that ECM is chance based. Here is your problem, you think that damps and TD's need to reduce the systems they effect to 0 to be effective and they do not. A ship damped down past the range of a ship it needs to lock cannot lock that ship, and a ship that has has its turrets disrupted so much that it cannot hit has been effected more than enough. Other ewar systems do not need to totally destroy and reduce to 0 the lock or hit/tracking range of the target ship to make it ineffective they only need to effect it to a position below the range they require. Originally by: Cambarus Damps got nerfed to hell for that very reason Damps are still very effective on non bonused ships when used correctly, so are TD's. Originally by: Cambarus Bring ECM down to 100km. Falcon pilots can still keep their range, while at the same time making it possible to kill a falcon with long range ships. Long range ships can hit falcons at 200+km just as easy. Originally by: Cambarus TBH though this whole argument is pointless. I'm sure we can all agree that when this many people complain, CCP does something about it. A few ppl with alts spamming the forums with stupid thread after stupid thread is not overwhelming support for a nerf, in fact if you look at most of the threads they have more ppl saying ECM is ok than the few alt spammers saying it needs nerfing.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:34:00 - [66] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/01/2009 20:35:16 Originally by: ry ry the other Ewar won't effect all ships though. a missile boat and droneships lol at TDs for example. ECM effects every ship, and as mentioned above, takes it out of the fight. ECM does not effect FOF missiles or drones either.......kthxbye
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:35:00 - [67] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus TBH though this whole argument is pointless. I'm sure we can all agree that when this many people complain, CCP does something about it. A few ppl with alts spamming the forums with stupid thread after stupid thread is not overwhelming support for a nerf, in fact if you look at most of the threads they have more ppl saying ECM is ok than the few alt spammers saying it needs nerfing. Furthermore, I could imagine the silence from CCP towards the 'issue' could mean they have actually knowledge of how many of the whiners are in fact the same person
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:07:00 - [68] Edited by: ry ry on 24/01/2009 21:10:18 Originally by: lecrotta ECM does not effect FOF missiles or drones either....... FOF missiles are useless in any fight with more than a couple of targets, and i'm fairly sure there is more involved with flying a droneship than clicking "launch drones" and alt-tabbing out to your killboard. smartbombs aren't effect by ecm either, but there aren't many fleets of smartbombing frigates roaming around murdering unsuspecting falcons. Quote: kthxbye the battlecry of internet cretins everywhere.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:11:00 - [69] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/01/2009 21:13:31 Originally by: ry ry FOF missiles are useless in any fight with more than a couple of targets So?, they are still unaffected by ecm. Originally by: ry ry smartbombs aren't effect by ecm either, but there aren't many fleets of smartbombing frigates roaming around murdering unsuspecting falcons. A unaffected ship or system is not the same as a fit/ship that can kill falcons. Originally by: ry ry and i'm fairly sure there is more involved with flying a droneship than clicking "launch drones". There is a lot more to combat than fitting close range gank/tank and crying to ccp cos falcons operate outside that effective range.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Omara Otawan Mostly have the falcon as prober and force multiplier in solo or very small gang ops, very handy to just jam the bait and warp off if a blob tries to gank you 10vs1. falcons are pretty much de-rigure for any self respecting roaming gang, same as minnie recons used to be pre-nano nerf. Originally by: Omara Otawan Edit: in case you didnt notice, the post you quoted was pure irony geared at a completely silly proposition in this thread. aye i get it, but surely even a falcon pilot can see that ecm is marginally overpowered in it's current incarnation.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:24:00 - [71] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 21:24:39 Originally by: ry ry falcons are pretty much de-rigure for any self respecting roaming gang, same as minnie recons used to be pre-nano nerf. What does de-rigure mean? Not a native english speaker and couldnt find it in dictionary. If it means something like 'a good idea to bring one' I'd agree. And you still should have a rapier in a decent gang, nano-nerf or not. Originally by: Omara Otawan aye i get it, but surely even a falcon pilot can see that ecm is marginally overpowered in it's current incarnation. I'm not sure its a good idea to even write this, but imo ECM is pretty balanced right now. The only thing I've seen suggested worth being supported so far is having racials limited to only work against one race, with no strength against other races. There was a thread about jamming chance vs. multiple ships last week, which pretty much summed up why multispecs are 100% worthless in 95% of situations.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:26:00 - [72] Originally by: lecrotta So?, they are still unaffected by ecm. Quote: A unaffected ship or system is not the same as a fit/ship that can kill falcons. that's the thing though, isn't it. the stuff not effected by ecm is useless at killing ecm boats. look how prolific dual-box solo roaming with a falcon alt has become. Quote: There is a lot more to combat than fitting close range gank/tank and crying to ccp cos falcons operate outside that effective range. so basically you're saying that every ship should fit an eccm module? don't get me wrong - it's not like i get ****ed over by roaming falcon gangs on a daily basis and cry bitter tears about being jammed, we have our own falcon pilots who are giving as good as they get, but they do need to be reconsidered.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:29:00 - [73] Edited by: ry ry on 24/01/2009 21:33:17 Originally by: Omara Otawan What does de-rigure mean? Not a native english speaker and couldnt find it in dictionary. If it means something like 'a good idea to bring one' I'd agree. And you still should have a rapier in a decent gang, nano-nerf or not. it's french, but horribly misspelt. de rigueur basically means "a convention dictated by current fashion". it's more than a good idea though: if two medium sized gangs of equal size, skill and ships meet but one has three falcons the other has three rapiers, which will win? (hint. it's the falcon gang!) in a nutshell that's my problem with ECM.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:31:00 - [74] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 21:32:11 Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 21:31:16 Originally by: ry ry look how prolific dual-box solo roaming with a falcon alt has become. Well, I dont see why I should be ashamed for bringing an alt in an ewar ship as support when going on solo roams. Remember, this is not my choice but I'm forced to do so since every lame-ass noob nowadays will bait you into a 10vs1 gangbang rather than fighting your solo frigate in his BS. It'd be easier to control just one ship instead of 2 for sure. Blobs are the issue, ecm is the counter imo. Also you can always leave the falcon cloaked if you're in for a fair fight...
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:37:00 - [75] Originally by: ry ry so basically you're saying that every ship should fit an eccm module? No but if depending on the gang type your in you can have anti-ewar ships, if its a BS gang a couple of them fitted for long range will be very useful, and if the gang you have is made up of smaller ships then your gang is mobile enough to make the flacon/ecm ship less than effective.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:46:00 - [76] Originally by: lecrotta depending on the gang type your in you can have anti-ewar ships, if its a BS gang a couple of them fitted for long range will be very useful, and if the gang you have is made up of smaller ships then your gang is mobile enough to make the flacon/ecm ship less than effective. turtle remote eccm-ing sniping battleships shooting at a ship they can't hit or tackle out at 200km?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:52:00 - [77] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/01/2009 21:52:32 Originally by: ry ry Originally by: lecrotta depending on the gang type your in you can have anti-ewar ships, if its a BS gang a couple of them fitted for long range will be very useful, and if the gang you have is made up of smaller ships then your gang is mobile enough to make the flacon/ecm ship less than effective. turtle remote eccm-ing sniping battleships shooting at a ship they can't hit or tackle out at 200km? You must fly minimatar pal cos all the other races sniper ships can hit a falcon at 200km very easily, driving off or even killing a falcon if it chose to stay or was not properly aligned.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:53:00 - [78] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 24/01/2009 21:53:51 Originally by: ry ry turtle remote eccm-ing sniping battleships shooting at a ship they can't hit or tackle out at 200km? Rokh can hit at those distances easy, deliver reasonable dps, all while still mounting a reasonable tank and having room for a local and one remote eccm. What people often miss about remote eccm is the nice range you get on them, plus the extra bonus compared to local modules. They are worth having around, and way easier to handle than remote armor/shield reppers.
Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.24 21:58:00 - [79] Edited by: Yoko Lee on 24/01/2009 21:58:05 dont nerf falcon but nerf ecm, honestly ccp....you want real fight or just 2/3 ecm boat vs 2/3 bs? pvp suck actullay thanks ccp time to stop the game maybe?
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.24 22:15:00 - [80] Ive got a great idea. Make it so jammers make you unable to target anyone EXCEPT the jamming ship. Since its whats causing the interference, you can just target it by tracing back up through the jam. careful use of range and tactics will make ewar ships still very powerful, but you cant just go around jamming everyone. This will have a side effect of moving the average combat ranges of larger ships out further, because more ships will be fitted for longer range fights. The resulting effective nerf to blasters and torps is of no consequence, nobody should be using missiles in pvp and gallente ships are ugly.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.24 22:23:00 - [81] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Here is your problem, you think that damps and TD's need to reduce the systems they effect to 0 to be effective and they do not. A ship damped down past the range of a ship it needs to lock cannot lock that ship, and a ship that has has its turrets disrupted so much that it cannot hit has been effected more than enough. Other ewar systems do not need to totally destroy and reduce to 0 the lock or hit/tracking range of the target ship to make it ineffective they only need to effect it to a position below the range they require. So you're saying that ECM is SUPPOSED to be better then all other forms of ewar. TDs: Useless on missile ships, short range weapons will still hit just fine, and long range targets can still shoot things, just not as far away. Drones can still be commanded no problem. Damps: They have an optimal of about 30km. That means you can stop at most one person from shooting you, if you're very careful and manage your distances. Oh and you're within drone range. Wooooooo. ECM: Completely shuts down any ship you get a jam on. They cannot use their guns or their missiles, and drones, though still active cannot be controlled and told who to shoot. (not that you're in drone range anyway) Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Damps got nerfed to hell for that very reason Damps are still very effective on non bonused ships when used correctly, so are TD's. Again, I don't see damps being used on non-bonused ships. Not since they got nerfed. They USED to be good mods, and everyone fit them. Not anymore. Besides, saying that any ship, from any race can field a certain type of ewar and be useful, whereas only the falcon (and other variants) can properly field ECM is more of an anti-falcon argument. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Bring ECM down to 100km. Falcon pilots can still keep their range, while at the same time making it possible to kill a falcon with long range ships. Long range ships can hit falcons at 200+km just as easy. Standard fleet fit battleship can hit out at about 150km. Some can, but at that range you'd need a LOT of them to be able to kill a falcon before it can warp off. Hell if the falcon pilot is aligned he's damn near unkillable. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus TBH though this whole argument is pointless. I'm sure we can all agree that when this many people complain, CCP does something about it. A few ppl with alts spamming the forums with stupid thread after stupid thread is not overwhelming support for a nerf, in fact if you look at most of the threads they have more ppl saying ECM is ok than the few alt spammers saying it needs nerfing. LOL I distinctly remember that EXACT same accusation being made of the anti-nano crowd...
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 22:43:00 - [82] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/01/2009 22:44:14 Originally by: Cambarus Again, I don't see damps being used on non-bonused ships. Not since they got nerfed. Actually damps were used to great effect even after they were nerfed by a few very highly skilled corps, BE for one used them on their ravens until missiles were nerfed along with nano. Originally by: Cambarus Standard fleet fit battleship can hit out at about 150km. Maybe if its flown by a noob with poor skills. but all races apart from mini havew a sniper that can hit at 200km easy. Originally by: Cambarus Hell if the falcon pilot is aligned he's damn near unkillable. Any ship/gang that operates at snipe range has that ability so what you gonna do nerf sniping fits?. Originally by: Cambarus I distinctly remember that EXACT same accusation being made of the anti-nano crowd... I distinctly remember ccp commenting that nano was a broken mechanic, i have never seen ccp say the same about ecm, in fact i remember somebody mentioning that a ccp member said it was working fine but i may have been misinformed.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.24 22:50:00 - [83] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Here is your problem, you think that damps and TD's need to reduce the systems they effect to 0 to be effective and they do not. A ship damped down past the range of a ship it needs to lock cannot lock that ship, and a ship that has has its turrets disrupted so much that it cannot hit has been effected more than enough. Other ewar systems do not need to totally destroy and reduce to 0 the lock or hit/tracking range of the target ship to make it ineffective they only need to effect it to a position below the range they require. So you're saying that ECM is SUPPOSED to be better then all other forms of ewar. TDs: Useless on missile ships, short range weapons will still hit just fine, and long range targets can still shoot things, just not as far away. Drones can still be commanded no problem. Damps: They have an optimal of about 30km. That means you can stop at most one person from shooting you, if you're very careful and manage your distances. Oh and you're within drone range. Wooooooo. ECM: Completely shuts down any ship you get a jam on. They cannot use their guns or their missiles, and drones, though still active cannot be controlled and told who to shoot. So someone being damped can still control their drones to attack the damper, but they cant when ECM'd?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.25 00:00:00 - [84] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 24/01/2009 22:55:13 Originally by: Cambarus ECM is better in gang combat IF the ECM ship is at range, on the other hand ALL the other recons and their systems are better at solo and close range combat. You're missing the point. It's not that ECM is more powerful at range that's the problem, it HOW far away it works. If you were to reduce the range of ECM to 100km, the falcon would still have that advantage. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Actually damps were used to great effect even after they were nerfed by a few very highly skilled corps, BE for one used them on their ravens until missiles were nerfed along with nano. With nearly any module or ship you can find SOMEONE who uses it well. Have a look at what Rajere and his corp does with blackops BSs. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't get changed. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Standard fleet fit battleship can hit out at about 150km. Maybe if its flown by a noob with poor skills. but all races apart from mini havew a sniper that can hit at 200km easy. I won't edit out my quote this time because you seem to have missed it. First off, short of having maxed skills you're not getting more then 300ish DPS from a BS past 200km. Second, I said the standard fleet fit. In an average fleet, you fit to be able to hit at 150km. You CAN fit to hit farther, but beyond that point you lose a lot of DPS. (Which btw reminds me, to whichever idiot asked for a range reduction for each damage mod, there IS ONE, it's called ammo, as well as different weapon types. As damage goes up, range goes down, FFS) The point is that even sitting still a falcon can warp off easily before killed by a sniper, assuming the ship can even hit at 200km, which is a problem. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus Any ship/gang that operates at snipe range has that ability so what you gonna do nerf sniping fits?. Battleships are big, and take long enough to align that in a decent sized fight a priority target will go down before he aligns. Were it a scorp at 200km I'd not have a problem, but it's a freaking cruiser hull we're talking about. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Cambarus ... I distinctly remember ccp commenting that nano was a broken mechanic, i have never seen ccp say the same about ecm, in fact i remember somebody mentioning that a ccp member said it was working fine but i may have been misinformed. Uh huh... they said it was broken, and then shortly after they nerfed it. Until they decided it was gamebreaking it was working as intended. And what about every other ship to get nerfed before it? Nano BSs, sensor damps, NOSs etc. People whine, CCP changes things.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.25 00:16:00 - [85] Edited by: lecrotta on 25/01/2009 00:21:19 Originally by: Cambarus Battleships are big, and take long enough to align that in a decent sized fight a priority target will go down before he aligns. Were it a scorp at 200km I'd not have a problem, but it's a freaking cruiser hull we're talking about. A sniper BS takes around 10 seconds to align, if you deduct lock time that gives very little time for a hostile gang to kill it, a flacon is not much faster and even if it uncloaks after it has aligned it gets a locking delay to make up for it. Originally by: Cambarus With nearly any module or ship you can find SOMEONE who uses it well. Exactly, and on every forum you will find whiners crying about the fact that they feel it is overpowered (and by it i mean anything that beats them not just ecm) cos it beats their close range tank/gank setup.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.25 00:18:00 - [86] Edited by: ry ry on 25/01/2009 00:25:44 its a very similar scenario to the nano thing, but subtally different. with the nano thing the problem wasn't interceptors going fast, it was being able to get ludicrous speeds out of a bloody commandships and stuff that was game-breaking only a handful of ships are any use at ecm and falcons should be good at it, ecm absolutely has a place in pvp, but ecm shouldn't be quite as powerful in general. i don't honestly know the best way to fix it without making it useless again.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.25 00:49:00 - [87] or what about a Sensor Feedback Loop - highslot module that has a low chance (10-15%?) of breaking a jam on you and jamming the ship that originally jammed you for a short period (couple of seconds or somehting) so they don't score an immediate re-jam. i'm drunk and tired, and i don't necessarilly think another module specifically to defend against ECM in it's current state is the solution.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.25 01:47:00 - [88] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/01/2009 01:50:46 Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/01/2009 01:48:47 Originally by: ry ry its a very similar scenario to the nano thing, but subtley different. with the nano thing the problem wasn't ships that are supposed to be quick going fast, it was being able to get ludicrous speeds out of a bloody commandships and stuff that was game-breaking Erm, you just explained why it is totally and completely different to nano. nano = worked for every ship, even on BSs ecm = only works on ships that are getting a special bonus If we apply your logic, ecm is working just like it should, and its TDs, RSDs and neuts that are game-breaking because they work on every ship... And I can assure you, if those are used correctly the effect is very binary, and it works 100% of the time not just if you're lucky. Fun fact: fit a full rack of TDs to your falcon and you take out more turret ships than you ever could with ecm.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.25 02:01:00 - [89] The people who still think Falcons are perfectly balanced need to get a reality check. Amarr recons: tracking disruptors nerfed by 50% by CCP's scripting feature. Nos nerfed into near uselessness Gallente recons: remote sensor damps nerfed 50% by CCP's scripting feature. Minmatar recons: webs nerfed significantly, where 2x new web is less than 1x old web, target painters were always weak Caldari recons: Falcon boosted to have same ECM bonus as the Rook, making the cov ops recon more powerful than non-cov ops version, unlike all other race recons. There's no question in my mind that Falcons have to fixed. Alternatively, we can restore balance by undoing all the bad decisions made by CCP in recent years - undo the Falcon boost, undo the 50% script nerf, undo the Nos nerf, undo the web nerf. Then your powerful Falcons will have equally powerful counterparts. On other hand, if you don't want recons to be that powerful, you must agree to nerf Falcon aswell
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.25 02:03:00 - [90] CCP will never nerf the falcon because they like the extra money that ppls falcons alts give Also falcon is fine it's u who sucks at pvp so just stfu please.

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