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Falcon fix idea - never suggested before!

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Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Murina on 24/01/2009 13:26:20 Originally by: Vera Vengeance But yeah, tbh, they do steal away the fun off small gang / solo pvp. That's for sure. Carebears playing too rough for ya pal?. So your "i-win vs X type of ship" style of ganking is now a little harder cos ppl are working in teams or using 2 accounts to beat your "math" ganking?. X type of ship/fit VS X type of ship fit = WIN is not pvp and if ppl have adapted to combat it then i suggest you do the same instead of crying about it. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits Originally by: Amira Shadowsong The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:49:00 - [32] Never been suggested before?: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=974286&page=1#12 I suggested that the falcon lose its range bonus so that it can remain valid in its role as an ambush force recon and the Rook could take over the fleet role. Because right now both are essentially the same ship. By the way, we're not talking 140km range, the falcon and rook can easily get over 200km optimal range with mediocre skills. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Krystal Demishy	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:55:00 - [33] Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: lecrotta Falcons and ecm ships need range as they are chance based unlike other systems. Quoted for absolute truth. LOL noob.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Krystal Demishy Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: lecrotta Falcons and ecm ships need range as they are chance based unlike other systems. Quoted for absolute truth. LOL noob. Thank you for your valuable insight.
Darwin Duck A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:08:00 - [35] Originally by: Vera Vengeance Originally by: Darwin Duck So you want to take away the only really good PvP ship Caldari have? Sure make us pure PVE, that will be fun. That just makes me lol... Do you solo with it? Do you fit a scrambler? Do you fit a webber? Do you ectualy do damage? Omg! only thing ppl do with it is fitting a full rack of ecm's! Besides, learn to fit caldari ships for pvp m8. They're awesome at it. Yes, it's a specific role, but atleast it makes us useful in PvP combat, god knows we arn't good for much else in PvP.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Krystal Demishy Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: lecrotta Falcons and ecm ships need range as they are chance based unlike other systems. Quoted for absolute truth. LOL i am a noob. fixed
Shigsy Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:30:00 - [37] Am i the only one who thinks 8k armor isn't paper thin...?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Shigsy Am i the only one who thinks 8k armor isn't paper thin...? 8k? Are you fitting 2 1600mm plates to it or summat cos that would gimp to heck its jamming str.......
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Shigsy Am i the only one who thinks 8k armor isn't paper thin...? Think about the consequences of fitting a 1600 plate and or armour rigs a little longer and realise that nerfing your agility that severe isn't doing you any good. Your cap ship deserves CPR's!
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.24 15:54:00 - [40] Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: lecrotta Falcons and ecm ships need range as they are chance based unlike other systems. Quoted for absolute truth. Quoted because both of these people are idiots. Beyond 50-60 KM ALL ewar is chance based. But of all the ewar only ECM completely removes a ships offensive abilities in a big fight, and ECM is the ONLY type of ewar that can be used at 200km or more. Putting falcons in drone range is just stupid, so they really don't need a dronebay of their own. That being said, I think a 100km range is a good place to be keeping falcons. Outside the range of most ships, but at the same time within the range of most ships fit to hit far away. As it stands there's but a small, small handful of ships that can hit at falcon ranges, and half of them are caldari =\. I can't help but think of nanos at a time like this. People complained, not because they were too powerful in combat but because their speed made them nearly unkillable. Same goes for the falcon. Short of lag/serious pilot error, you're no real reason to lose a falcon to anything less then 4-5 ships dedicated to taking you out. As for the lack of a buffer. Fit a 1600mm plate. does it make you less effective? Welcome to the world of every other freaking recon in the game. Falcons are force multipliers that are virtually unkillable. Most ships can't even LOCK at falcon range without a couple sensor boosters, let alone having to fit ECCM to keep a lock, and even if you DO keep a lock, there's nothing stopping him from just warping off and cloaking, unless you have a hictor/dictor that can get out to 200km before the falcon pilot notices...
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: lecrotta Falcons and ecm ships need range as they are chance based unlike other systems. Quoted for absolute truth. Beyond 50-60 KM ALL ewar is chance based. Quoted because you are a are idiot. ECM is the only ewar system that is STILL chance based under 50-60km. ECM is useless when fitted on nonbonused ships, while the others work great on any ship. ECM bonused ships only have ONE bonused ewar system, while all the others have TWO.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:05:00 - [42] Originally by: lecrotta ECM bonused ships only have ONE bonused ewar system, while all the others have TWO. With the slight differnce that the one system is double bonused You know, that's actually a good thing, in some cases.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:24:00 - [43] Originally by: P'uck Originally by: lecrotta ECM bonused ships only have ONE bonused ewar system, while all the others have TWO. With the slight differnce that the one system is double bonused You know, that's actually a good thing, in some cases. Yeah it's nice. As long as you only want to do one thing ever.
Gilad Ayn Gallente The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:30:00 - [44] Originally by: The Tzar Nice idea but if you're bringing the falcon in the same range as the other recons you also need to balance it in one or more of the following areas: Drone bay More mids for shield buffer More resists for shield buffer More Speed without having to gimp your EW strength (only recon that HAS to have full lowslot EW to be effective in its EW) Really? More mids (plural) for a ship that already has 7 mids? A drone bay? What's a Falcon going to do with one? Let's 'balance' all other ships by adding a free midslot so every other ship can put in ECCM too, while we're at it. And the point about being effective in your EW.. well, it's hardly contested that which is considered effective for a Falcon is head and shoulders above other recons.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Gilad Ayn And the point about being effective in your EW.. well, it's hardly contested that which is considered effective for a Falcon is head and shoulders above other recons. Not if you wanna solo its not. ALL the other recons are highly effective solo ships while the falcon is worthless unless it has back up of at least one more ship if not more. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits Originally by: Amira Shadowsong The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.24 18:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Malcanis Yeah it's nice. As long as you only want to do one thing ever. Hey, I tell you what, my rapier gets the strength bonus for its webs, and you can have my TP bonus, I am THAT nice
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:03:00 - [47] Edited by: Esmenet on 24/01/2009 19:04:14 Originally by: Shigsy Am i the only one who thinks 8k armor isn't paper thin...? A normal falcon will have around 6500 EHP with all skills maxed. Less if you use EM damage.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:04:00 - [48] Edited by: lebrata on 24/01/2009 19:04:45 Originally by: P'uck Originally by: Malcanis Yeah it's nice. As long as you only want to do one thing ever. Hey, I tell you what, my rapier gets the strength bonus for its webs, and you can have my TP bonus, I am THAT nice Fine by me, but its ccp you need to convince if you wanna swap your tp bonus for a extra web bonus..
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:21:00 - [49] Give the typhoon a damage bonus vs falcons and a lock time bonus against recon ships.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:22:00 - [50] We, the people, have spoken! MAKE IT SO.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:30:00 - [51] I want my Rapier to have webs and tps a range of 150km and chance-based, based on say the mass of each ship, so smaller ships will almost always come to a dead stop for 10 seconds, but battleships only come to a dead stop 50% of the time. After all, everyone needs some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:35:00 - [52] Originally by: Spaztick I want my Rapier to have webs and tps a range of 150km and chance-based, based on say the mass of each ship, so smaller ships will almost always come to a dead stop for 10 seconds, but battleships only come to a dead stop 50% of the time. Using that stuff is bad for you ya know........ Anyway officer webs can be fitted on a rapier and reach out to over 150km with the right CS bonuses.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:51:00 - [53] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 08:56:17 Hmm, interesting idea, you think that could be a solution for the prevalence of high-dps BSs too, just have -20% range per damage mod? the 'problem' with high dps battleships is that there aren't enough with the crazy tanks people can field ever since the introduction of rigs. I can offer a solution for this problem too: -20% capacitor capacity per armor repair module -20% capcacitor recharge rate per armor hardener module -20% capacitor capacity per shield boost module -20% cap recharge per shield hardener module
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Esmenet Edited by: Esmenet on 24/01/2009 19:04:14 Originally by: Shigsy Am i the only one who thinks 8k armor isn't paper thin...? A normal falcon will have around 6500 EHP with all skills maxed. Less if you use EM damage. A tanked falcon (imo a 'normal' falcon should have one LSE) has around 12k EHP, the other recons are in the 35k EHP area without completely gimping themmselves.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:53:00 - [55] Because every rapier pilot can slap on enough fitting mods to get 1 officer web on their ship for a worse web than T2, and only if they have a mindlinked command ship with them and decide to overheat. Actually I did some testing in EFT, with a mindlinked Eos a falcon can get racials to 270 km optimal and multispecs to 180km, and if you overheat them the racials can get 16 jam strength.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:03:00 - [56] Edited by: lebrata on 24/01/2009 20:03:18 Originally by: Spaztick Because every rapier pilot can slap on enough fitting mods to get 1 officer web on their ship for a worse web than T2, and only if they have a mindlinked command ship with them and decide to overheat. Actually I did some testing in EFT, with a mindlinked Eos a falcon can get racials to 270 km optimal and multispecs to 180km, and if you overheat them the racials can get 16 jam strength. And the web will work perfectly within its boosted range while the ECM units will still be chanced based at all ranges close or long.
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:04:00 - [57] I think the falcon is probably the best balanced recon out there. It really is only viable in small scale combat or in support of a fleet unlike all other recons which can and do go out for the solo killage (yes even the pilgrim still pwns albeit no where near as much) I think for once a ship (falcon) is fine, and if a silly change like this goes ahead I will just change the rigs I use to counter it (I evolve) No secret I am maxxed out skill falcon pilot and even with max ecm strength i still miss jams that is the whole point of why chance was added to the equation way back when Eph, I know you to be an experienced falcon pilot and rarely on your roamings are you 150-200km of your targets mostly you engage close to midrange in with falcon you are dual charring so in reality this change would have zero impact on your game.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:05:00 - [58] Originally by: lecrotta Quoted because you are a are idiot. ECM is the only ewar system that is STILL chance based under 50-60km. ECM is useless when fitted on nonbonused ships, while the others work great on any ship. ECM bonused ships only have ONE bonused ewar system, while all the others have TWO. OK let's point out all the flaws in your argument: The fact that ECM is still chance based under 50km means nothing, for 2 reasons. The first is that I'm not arguing that ECM range should be dropped that low. IMO it should be dropped to about 100km, well outside the optimal range of any other type of ewar. The second is that even if it is still chance based, you're getting a chance to break someone's lock 100%, rather then getting a 100% chance to break someone's lock by a percentage. When TDs reduce the optimal of guns and missiles to 0m, or when a sensor damp makes someone's targetting range 0m, then we can talk about it being unfair that ECM is chance based. Whatever you've been smoking that makes you think other races ewar is useful on non-bonused ships, give me 2. Damps got nerfed to hell for that very reason, though TBH I can't vouch for TDs and TPs, but I've yet to see people fitting them on non-bonused ships in anything other then a comedy setup. As for the 2 bonused recons, you're getting twice the bonuses on ECM. Stop complaining. Here, I made you a little chart: (Under 50km) ECM = 100% removed damage on a % chance. Damps/TDs = % damage removed 100% of the time. (So far so good) (Above 50KM, below 150) ECM = 100% removed damage on a % chance. Damps/TDs = % damage removed on a % chance. (A tad biased towards ECM, but hey, it's a long range ship, so w/e) (Above 150km) ECM = 100% removed damage on a % chance. All other ewar = Useless. ... Bring ECM down to 100km. Falcon pilots can still keep their range, while at the same time making it possible to kill a falcon with long range ships. TBH though this whole argument is pointless. I'm sure we can all agree that when this many people complain, CCP does something about it. It's just a matter of time, and HOW they decide to nerf falcons. How they nerf them will either be based on feedback from the players, or they'll go with something completely different altogether, ignoring what the masses request. If they go with the latter, then nothing you say here matters, and if they go with the former, why not try to argue for a reasonable nerf so that falcons don't become completely useless?
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:07:00 - [59] Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 24/01/2009 20:03:18 Originally by: Spaztick Because every rapier pilot can slap on enough fitting mods to get 1 officer web on their ship for a worse web than T2, and only if they have a mindlinked command ship with them and decide to overheat. Actually I did some testing in EFT, with a mindlinked Eos a falcon can get racials to 270 km optimal and multispecs to 180km, and if you overheat them the racials can get 16 jam strength. And the web will work perfectly within its boosted range while the ECM units will still be chanced based at all ranges close or long. I just said I wanted my webs to be chance-based on the rapier but have further range. After all, everyone needs some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:11:00 - [60] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2009 08:56:17you think that could be a solution for the prevalence of high-dps BSs too, just have -20% range per damage mod? that would be rubbish :(

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