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Remote Armor Repairer - time for a nerf?

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Axl B	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:27:00 - [1] I will start by comparing a Large armor repairer and a Large Remote Armor Repairer, both t2 versions: 1. Large armor repairer II - Activation: 400 - Power: 2300 - CPU: 55 - Duration: 15 sec - Armor repair: 800 2. Large Remote Armor Repairer - Activation: 252 - Power: 660 - CPU: 48 - Duration: 4.5 sec - Armor repair: 384 Obviously the less pg and cpu required for a Large Remote Armor Repairer, combined with the fact that in less time a LRAR repairs more armor hp (in 13.5 sec you can remote rep 1152 armor hp), they all lead to the well known RR bs gangs you see almost everywhere today. While before QR a nano gang of hacs/recons was able to counter in some ways the RR bs gangs, it seems nowadays you really need a bigger RR gang to counter one. I don't wanna put under the question the fact that a better organized RR bs gang will win a fight against a similar numbered gang. I just am tired of the cases when you wait to get more bs's in your gang to be able to engage with even odds the enemy RR bs gang. Which usually turns in the enemy not wanting to engage if you succeed in bringing same or bigger numbers etc etc. I think that was also the reason behind CCP not allowing RR's in tournament, which it would have been a lot less fun if RR's were involved. Maybe reducing the effectiveness of RR's by either increasing their powergrid or increasing the activation time would bring again the fun fights between bs gangs, where calling targets, self repping capabilities, personal pilots skills will start to count more than just numbers. Pls post your opinions.
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:30:00 - [2] 1 word: Falcon THE best weapon when facing spidergangs Cheers, Faros YES I am a CareBear YES I also post on C&P PROOF or STFU
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:32:00 - [3] Less cap efficient, requires a gang to work, and a highslot. No, they're fine. The reason they're not in the tourney, is that dual logistics setups were boring. Nothing more than that. Same as there's no pirate sets or faction gear, and ships have a points cost. The _only_ reason we need to think about the power of the module, is when you compare it with the shield ones. 154cpu, and 192 powergrid is a hell of a lot harder to fit than 48cpu and 660grid. -- 249km locking?
Axl B	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:34:00 - [4] Yes i know falcons are one way to counter a bs fitted with RR, but I am certain you know that every RR bs has at least 1 (usually 2) eccm mods fitted. Even the very well trained falcon pilot will have trouble in jamming a bs with 2 eccms fitted.
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:39:00 - [5] Remote repping will not increase the size of gangs indefinatly. It is only usefull in mid sized fleets where the incoming damage wont insta kill a ship. Instead it is one way to be able to take on a larger fleet with a smaller one. And as James and Faros said, there are counters, and trade offs. It works pretty well as it is.
achoura	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:14:00 - [6] Edited by: achoura on 27/01/2009 22:14:22 Thoughts? Originally by: Axl B While before QR a nano gang of hacs/recons was able to counter in some ways the RR bs gangs, it seems nowadays you really need a bigger RR gang to counter one. Nope. Originally by: Axl B I don't wanna put under the question the fact that a better organized RR bs gang will win a fight against a similar numbered gang. You just did. Originally by: Axl B I just am tired of the cases when you wait to get more bs's in your gang to be able to engage with even odds the enemy RR bs gang. This is you're problem, not a module. Originally by: Axl B Maybe reducing the effectiveness of RR's by either increasing their powergrid or increasing the activation time would bring again the fun fights between bs gangs So the solution to you being bored not being albe to fight outnumbered is blame a module for not being able to kill a bigger group of people than yourselves? Originally by: Axl B calling targets, self repping capabilities, personal pilots skills will start to count more than just numbers. False. In fact this final statement only displays your ignorance. If you truly believe that rr i.e. no local repairing is purely about numbers rather that the skills of the pilots, their coordination and organisation, then you simply do not understand part of the game in which you are attempting to compete (hence, you loose to better skilled people). Rr gamgs are not enjoyable to fly in, require every member to be competent, organised and highly skilled, more so than a local repped gang and are dam slow and always at a disadvantage to smaller ships. What you are complaining about is being beeten by equal or higher numbers, of well skilled people who are attacking in a situation a localy repped gang would fail. Learn how to improve and beet them rather blame you're lack of fun/failures on a module. Also ecm is not the solution (in fact their wasted slot on eccm is their weakness) and for those who say it is i ask this. what happens when you go get your falcon and jam them on the gate or station? Oh that's right, they jump/dock/don't die. Ecm is onyl part of the solution, Players who are single mided enough to put all their plan into afew ships so common that every rr bs carry eccm are going to loose. You iknow what their bringing, you know they have eccm, so why are you wasting pilots on jamming ships? Replace your ecm ship with a different form of... ... and those eccm mod become watsed mid slots.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:16:00 - [7] Here it comes: Next level nerf whining... Im surprised to read it here that fast (even before any ewar nerfs)!
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:22:00 - [8] IIRC CCP talked about nerfing spider tanking before Empyrean Age came out. Falcon is a counter to everything and won't survive 2009 in its current form. Besides, citing a specific ship (in this case the Falcon) as the reason something isn't unbalanced (in this case spider tanking) is no more valid than claiming that nano's were fine because people could just bring a Rapier.
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Dirk Magnum IIRC CCP talked about nerfing spider tanking before Empyrean Age came out. Falcon is a counter to everything and won't survive 2009 in its current form. Besides, citing a specific ship (in this case the Falcon) as the reason something isn't unbalanced (in this case spider tanking) is no more valid than claiming that nano's were fine because people could just bring a Rapier. I think he mentioned only falcon to be provocative. You can offcourse get the same effect by using any ECM-ship, or ecm drones. Or just use an other tactic, like neuts, bumping, gank/switching targets etc.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:23:00 - [10] Um nerf what, ever been primaried? If you cant break your primary target in RR gang vs RR gang fight than you're either fighting overwhelming odds or you plainly suck. There is no reason in this world to demand that a non RRing gang should be able to engage a RRing gang with equal odds, not if their numbers and rest of their makeup are similar. RRing is teamwork. If you dont want to fit t1 warp disruptor or anp istead of eanm on your mega and leave the 8th slot empty or fit a neut or something, you my friend are going to win very rarely, and fully deserved. If you find yourself in a situation where you need more and more BS because you dont have remotes and enemy does I suggest you change your corp/alliance. Primaries often drop before people manage to lock them and even start using the remotes, dps amounts with only as many as 10 bs can be staggering, going well over 10k. GL tanking that with "self repping" or even with remote repping. A large RR gang with damnation boosting it will lose it's first primaried members against a competent opposition even if they in the end prevail with a good k/d ratio. There is really no reason to nerf anything here. Please don't ask for nerfs where they are most certainly not needed.

De Guantanamo	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:53:00 - [11] Nerf Guardians too. Cap circle jerks turn me on but are just silly.
Ferris Tefo	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:13:00 - [12] Nerf Falcons that use RR then everyone will be happy
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:52:00 - [13] Lets just nerf everything! DPS comes next!!
Haalanii	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:39:00 - [14] RR doesn't need a nerf. More tactics in this game = good. This game already lacks diversity. With the nerfs to speed and a nerf to RR gangs skill would play a very small role in fleet combat. It would just be primary calling and DPS-racing. Bigger blob always wins there. With nano (pre-nerf) and RR (currently) a smaller but better-organized gang can beat a larger, less-sophisticated fleet. If your whine is focused on armor RR opposed to shield transfer then that's just an issue with the number of shield tanked BS in game versus armor tanked BS. Not a problem with armor RR itself. Shield transfers are actually better, they hit the other ship instantly. A shiend transfering torp raven / drake / nighthawk gang is feasible. You can mix minmatar shield tanks and the occasional oddball like shield-tanked myrm.
Axl B	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:37:00 - [15] Thank you for your answers and opinions. This post was not about complete nerf of RR's. It is about them being too effective in comparison with the Local Repairers. My point was not about me or my gang not being able to apply successfully the principles of organizing an RR gang. In my opinion, the RR gang has proven so successful that every decent corp/alliance is (or should be) imposing standard ship setups for its members. This actually leads not to a more diversity in fitting ships (see armor plated ravens, tempests, maelstroms, etc with the purpose of being able to be a part of an armor RR gang). Maybe at this moment, a smaller RR gang is able to take out a non-RR bs gang. But after a good beat, that larger gang will also reconsider organizing towards an RR type of gang. The tendency is to transform every bs in a good "hoplite" for a hoplite phalanx. Someone said that an RR gang "require every member to be competent, organised and highly skilled, more so than a local repped gang". I disagree here. It actually brings a 6 mil sp pilot to a 15 mil sp pilot. Every pilot that can fly a tier 1 bs, able to fit 3-4 plates and some t1 hardeners + RR's is becoming as good as a pilot with double the skillpoints. Also, as an example, before RR gangs became FOTM, i would have engaged with a 5 bs gang a 9 bs gang, cuz even if i would have lost all ships i know i wouldve probably killed 3-4 enemy ships. We did that and it was fun. Today, with RR gangs everywhere, 5 bs's would be able to take out maybe only 1 of the 9 ships cuz they would not have enough dps to break a trimark plated bs which is repped by 8-15 Remote reps. In these conditions, only a foul would rush his gang in a fight like that. You would probably wait to get more bs's in your gang at which point the enemy might not wanna engage and so on. I'm dealing with this every day, with gangs starting from 5 to 25 ppl, so pls dont give me "you are a nub/whiner/moron/ etc". Also i am not preaching the total nerf of RR mods (getting primaried sucks :) ), but just saying that reducing their stats might bring more fun in bs fights (or make 10 ppl hac gangs wanna try engage a 10 bs gang, and not run like they do now).
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.28 08:24:00 - [16] Axl, I understand what you want to say. Just some words: Reducing stats is nerfing. The time when you had a RR BS gang running and the hostile hadn't, it was fun for you. Now your enemy has RR too and now it is no fun anymore? Hmm... I know your intention and reducing the rep bonus is what you request, but starting those topics is a good chance for people who actually whine about anything which pops them. And if any counters to RR BS are nerfed, you will see pop up those "nerf RR" threads like you see now "nerf Falcon / Amarr / Cloaking / addsomethinghere". And this is what s**ks imho.
Ezael Whiteshadow Caldari Divine Anarchy	Posted - 2009.01.28 08:28:00 - [17] Originally by: FarosWarrior 1 word: Falcon THE best weapon when facing spidergangs PMSL! You do realise this guy would probably want to nurf the Falcon too??!!
Axl B	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:50:00 - [18] I really am not a member of the "nerf falcons" club. I would also like that minmatar recons get a bonus for web strength and gallente recons a small bonus for damps. Just to make things more fun and diverse. But that is another story. My RR gang still has success and my problem is not here. Just think 1 RLAR being twice as better than 2 LAR's (at reduced pg and cpu requirements) is overpowered. I remember fights between even numbered bs gangs were more fun and more often 6month-1year ago than they are atm, when it became more like a game of chess evaluating dps and remote repping capabilities, with people not wanting to fight because of being afraid losing an entire gang with almost no kills (ive been on both situations, under numbered or over numbered).
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:58:00 - [19] So basically the OP is a complaint that people do not want to engage when the odds are not in their favour. This has got nothing to do with RR BS! When CCP eliminates one strategy from the game another strategy will become overpowered because the previously nerfed one was the counter to the other. My opinion may or may not be shared by my alliance
Seishi Maru Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Haalanii RR doesn't need a nerf. More tactics in this game = good. This game already lacks diversity. With the nerfs to speed and a nerf to RR gangs skill would play a very small role in fleet combat. It would just be primary calling and DPS-racing. Bigger blob always wins there. With nano (pre-nerf) and RR (currently) a smaller but better-organized gang can beat a larger, less-sophisticated fleet. If your whine is focused on armor RR opposed to shield transfer then that's just an issue with the number of shield tanked BS in game versus armor tanked BS. Not a problem with armor RR itself. Shield transfers are actually better, they hit the other ship instantly. A shiend transfering torp raven / drake / nighthawk gang is feasible. You can mix minmatar shield tanks and the occasional oddball like shield-tanked myrm. there is another imbalance between armor RR and shield. Its the fittings. RR are easy to fit, most BS can get a lot of PG to spare for it. But the ammount of CPU the Shield transfers require make them un*****ble on most ships. Get a BS and fit 8 Large armor RR. Easy.. now get any other BS and try to fit 8 Large shield transfers. Shield transfer units shoudl have their CPU usage HALVED.

Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:16:00 - [21] Remote reps are countered in several different ways: Speed: Drag those ships apart and see how much rep they can do from a distance ECM: They can't rep if they can't lock RSD: They can't rep if they can't lock (see #1 for execution) Neut: They can't rep if they have no cap Target switching: battleships have long lock times, and remote rep FCs will often "focus fire" remote rep rather than spider/locl rep, so lock multiple targets and switch damage when you see the reps kick in. Snipers: A sniper gang of equal size & weight will easily break through most remote rep tanks without being in any danger themselves. /adapt
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Axl B It actually brings a 6 mil sp pilot to a 15 mil sp pilot. Every pilot that can fly a tier 1 bs, able to fit 3-4 plates and some t1 hardeners + RR's is becoming as good as a pilot with double the skillpoints. It is exactly the opposite. A good RR gang needs to be composed of completely t2 fitted ships, including the guns, in order to inflict maximum amount of damage and kill opposing battleships faster than losing it's own. RR BS gang I had the privilege to fly with and even lead were also composed of mostly slaved members, at least low grade. Not to mention the price of trimarks. Had some of the most intense and fun fights in such surroundings and now people come and claim that it's boring to them because they lose. The old solo fotms like nos domis were the ships where skillpoints meant nothing since you only need energy emission systems lvl3 to fit a large nos/neut, and it's not like you neeed drone interfacing 5 to kill a dry target. A good remote repping gang will cost one hell lot of isk and need a lot of skillpoints. Nobody is afraid of bunch of noobs in unrigged geddons with afocal guns. Also, RR didn't become popular 6 months or 1 year ago, it is around for a much much longer time. As for armor tanked ravens and maelstroms, it's the issue of people who trained for such races. For example we gave a thought about it and decided to use ravens with cruise launcers, eccms, sensor boosters and remaining slots used for shield buffer, it worked very well at chasing off or killing enemy falcons and rooks, sitting at 50-100km from the fight at safe distance and instapopping support or just joning in at shooting primaries once support was deat with. Of course shield tanked BS can't stand in front lines in armor remote repping gang, but theoretically remote shield gang is viable. It's however hard to assemble enough people for it since most caldari pilots are flying falcons, and if they switch to ravens... well I bet geddon + falcon gang would **** raven + pilgrim one, don't you think so? Also as has been stated remote shield transfers are hard to fit. While 1 per ship is possible, after all shield tanks can afford losing a low for co-proc, I have no problem at all with the fitting requirements for those mods being reduced.
yarrmarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:08:00 - [23] Nerf Falcon! Oh wai..... yep, nerf falcon!
Darth Felin	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:09:00 - [24] Yes it is hard to fit shield transfers but they have one HUGE advantage against RARs - they repair at the beginning of the cycle, not at the end of it.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:10:00 - [25] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 28/01/2009 11:10:50 Nerf amarr change optimal bonus to falloff bonus on apoc and zealot, problem solved. Also halve the optimal on pulses :P
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Darth Felin Yes it is hard to fit shield transfers but they have one HUGE advantage against RARs - they repair at the beginning of the cycle, not at the end of it. OH and that is enough to counter that shield transporters are not *****ble because of too much cpu use? Also armor resists are better than shield resists--> better cap efficiency + armor buffer is bigger than shield buffer--> better for rr gang. I see no reason to use rr shield over rr armor. Only if you can field ONLY caldari ships, but that is absurd.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 28/01/2009 11:10:50 Nerf whiners.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:25:00 - [28] Originally by: H Lecter So basically the OP is a complaint that people do not want to engage when the odds are not in their favour. This has got nothing to do with RR BS! When CCP eliminates one strategy from the game another strategy will become overpowered because the previously nerfed one was the counter to the other.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Naomi Knight I see no reason to use rr shield over rr armor. Only if you can field ONLY caldari ships, but that is absurd. There is one plus for shield tank, and that's it has armor beneath as well as hull, unlike armor tank which only has hull. With sufficient amount of remote reping, the fact that you need to dig through both armor and hull of a ship on top of it's shield being constantly boosted should buy precious seconds in a fight. Also, all minmatar battleships, even the typhoon, can be fitted with shield buffers and be very viable in such fights. In addition such gang would have the bonus of being able to chose damage type, typically between em and explosive, depending on the sort of opponents they face. Gang consisting of geddons and megas doesnt possess this advantage. Downside is that there are no "shield slaves", and that the natural advantages of shield tank, such as slow automatic recharge, automatic return to 100% upon docking and undocking etc become utterly useless in a high dps environment. Also, less room to fit tackling and eccm gear. But imho greatest problem, as I already said, is that backbone of such a gang would have to be composed of people who would in armor gang fly falcons, meaning less or even no falcons for such a gang, since corp that would want to assemble it would otherwise have to be composed of a lot of caldari speced pilots. This is rarity outside high sec "friendly mining and mission running, all races welcome" sort of communities.
Axl B	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:23:00 - [30] Lets look it another way. You have 3 megathrons vs 5 dominix ... lets say both sides with lvl 5 skills all around, both gangs fitted with RR's, t2 mods and trimark rigs, no implants and same leadership skills, close range guns. Pls answer the following questions: 1. Who do you think will win the fight if they meet at 0km on a given safe spot? 2. How many losses will have the winning side? 3. If you know there are 5 domis fitted with RR's on a gate, and you are the FC of the megathron gang in same system, will you warp your gang on top of the domi gang? 4. What about if there were no RR's fitted on both gangs; who do you think would win and how many losses on each side?



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