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Culmen
Caldari
Blood Phage Syndicate
   |
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Culmen on 28/01/2009 12:16:28
Imagine the case, some time on March 13th.
Your gang is cruising w-space, 5 ships : assorted mix of BCs and BSs, oh and one frigate : a Heron
The Heron pilot is decent, a little new, but finding those wormholes just fine. Your gang finds a pristine system, and quickly get to work taking out rats left and right. Suddenly, local jumps, a dozen or so ships have just entered in behind you. Your gang scatters, but the heron is too slow. Over TS your Heron pilot says, "Dammit! I just got ganked". Local empties out of all non-gang members. You head back to your entry point, finding it collapsed. You ask "Anyone else got probes?"... and are greeted with silence. At this point you remember you are in your implant clone...
Though this gang would admittedly be pretty damm dumb to fly with. Its going to happen to someone eventually. A more likely scenario is that half your gang is stuck in pods, with the probers either dead or jumped out of system. What you end up with is a group stranded in one system. No way out but death.
On one hand, I think this really symbolizes everything EvE is striving to be. Cold, Harsh, Stark Reality that needs capitalization to covey the impact. You screwed up, and now everything you flew in is forfeit. Perfect! Much drama and soul search ensues and you hit the self destruct. You're ****ed, but you knew what you were getting into when you went through the wormhole.
Harsh as it is though, you've been there and done that.
Now imagine if a wormhole opened up near a starter system, with one greifer shooting gang invites in local saying, "HEY KIDDIES! Wanna see a wormhole? Just jump through and ignore the warning!" End result, a fleet of n00bs stranded in w-space. They reach out to the petition system, see a category labeled "Stuck", think to themselves "Am I stuck? YES!" and fire away
The wormhole system is quite literally as far away from WoW and conventional MMOs as you can possibly get. Here is a nigh inescapable death trap, that you can only escape through friends or the charity of a stranger. It's what makes the system absolutely awesome for veteran players, but absolutely game breaking for new players. Players who might not even understand "Don't fly what you can't afford to loose". They won't be blaming a ganker or an alliance, they will be blaming only CCP and the game itself.
Can you imagine being trapped by a game mechanic, your petitions being ignore, your forum post being flamed and your ship still stuck? You'd conclude the game was broken and leave. And before you leave, you'd have clogged the petition system needlessly.
Now having one exit wormhole, being displayed on the map like a stargate would be nice. But EvE is not nice... that would be WoW. What I propose is that Aura tells you the in that electronic voice of hers "Congratulation Pilot, You have flown through a wormhole, but you may have completely screwed yourself over. Self-destruct button is on the right click menu. Its working as intended, welcome to EvE", the first time you jump through a wormhole.
It probably won't stop the whining, but it'll help... maybe |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:19:00 -
[2]
I don't see a problem, as long as clones still work. W-space is pretty clearly Not For Carebears(tm). |
Yokoshima Kaizoku
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:21:00 -
[3]
Who forces you to go to a W-Space? 
You know the risks. You figure out you'll be fine. You get ganked. You were wrong.
Now be a good little boy and pod yourself back to known space. See? There's always a way out. It just may not be to your liking.
 Quote:
The wormhole system is quite literally as far away from WoW and conventional MMOs as you can possibly get. Here is a nigh inescapable death trap, that you can only escape through friends or the charity of a stranger. It's what makes the system absolutely awesome for veteran players, but absolutely game breaking for new players. Players who might not even understand "Don't fly what you can't afford to loose". They won't be blaming a ganker or an alliance, they will be blaming only CCP and the game itself.
This just defined Eve. And I'm damn happy about it!  |
Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:22:00 -
[4]
i wouldnt get your imagination too wound up.
besides, not everything is going to be for low sp people, i'd think wormholes would be for more advanced types of people, and all the instances you mention are prettymuch everyday happenings of noobs. and frankly, i highly doubt CCP would have some kind of safeguard in place before releasing for the odd stuck char.
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Culmen
Caldari
Blood Phage Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:24:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Culmen on 28/01/2009 12:25:36
I agree, nobody is forcing anyone to go and W-space is clearly marked "No Newbs"
But Murphy's law is going to wind somebody totally unprepared into W-space
and when someone looses a ship to players, they'll blame the players
but when someone looses a ship to w-space, they'll be blaming no one but CCP.
Not very good NPE or even basic PR if you ask me. |
Suboran
Gallente
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:29:00 -
[6]
you get stuck and die permanently in game |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yokoshima Kaizoku
Who forces you to go to a W-Space?
You know the risks. You figure out you'll be fine. You get ganked. You were wrong.
Now be a good little boy and pod yourself back to known space. See? There's always a way out. It just may not be to your liking.
Quote:
The wormhole system is quite literally as far away from WoW and conventional MMOs as you can possibly get. Here is a nigh inescapable death trap, that you can only escape through friends or the charity of a stranger. It's what makes the system absolutely awesome for veteran players, but absolutely game breaking for new players. Players who might not even understand "Don't fly what you can't afford to loose". They won't be blaming a ganker or an alliance, they will be blaming only CCP and the game itself.
This just defined Eve. And I'm damn happy about it!
Exactly. The risk-averse have had 2 years of continuous "improvements" to hi-sec, so they have their playgorund.
W-space is ours. Leave your tears at the door, pls. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Culmen
Edited by: Culmen on 28/01/2009 12:25:36
I agree, nobody is forcing anyone to go and W-space is clearly marked "No Newbs"
But Murphy's law is going to wind somebody totally unprepared into W-space
and when someone looses a ship to players, they'll blame the players
but when someone looses a ship to w-space, they'll be blaming no one but CCP.
Not very good NPE or even basic PR if you ask me.
Tough. They can eff off back to Motsu if they don't like it. |
MILK Monk
2nd Blood Raven Assault Squad
R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Culmen
...and when someone looses a ship to players, they'll blame the players
but when someone looses a ship to w-space, they'll be blaming no one but CCP....
when you loose your ship in mission, because you are scrambled by small ratties... who would you blame?
you simply have to think more out of the "standard game box"... even if you are new player and you get in troubles which you mentioned, reasonable player who knows why he/she plays EVE will consider this as a situation which is needed to be handled in some way = playing game, not blaming anybody for own decisions. If they start blaming CCP then they are simply not prepared for EVE... my 2c |
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:44:00 -
[10]
counter sceniro here. Proper setup would be youre corp finds a wspace system u send a pos thro with ship hanger array perhaps corp hanger array with spare fuel and enough supplies to sustain an operation.
U make sure u have 3 cahracters scan probing capable, now also under stand 2500 systems right, 50000 players i think it wont be enough to be honest everyones gunna be doing it. so what happens u get some empire peep come into youre system his not red and might be friendly he has a wormhole link solution u get the wh link find where it leads go out problem solved. I can see a new career path whereby u can help "rescue" stranded individuals out of 00 space.
Other option is if youre out there with pos make sure u have a few cov ops ships and some combat and mining ships. So if one gets lost u can also insist that people joining have both combat and astrometrics skills
Rumour also has it new toosn after patch will start with 3-5 mil skillpoints enough to probably get half decent prober and cruiser pilot up and running off the start |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Culmen
Edited by: Culmen on 28/01/2009 12:16:28
Imagine the case, some time on March 13th.
Your gang is cruising w-space, 5 ships : assorted mix of BCs and BSs, oh and one frigate : a Heron
The Heron pilot is decent, a little new, but finding those wormholes just fine. Your gang finds a pristine system, and quickly get to work taking out rats left and right. Suddenly, local jumps, a dozen or so ships have just entered in behind you. Your gang scatters, but the heron is too slow. Over TS your Heron pilot says, "Dammit! I just got ganked". Local empties out of all non-gang members. You head back to your entry point, finding it collapsed. You ask "Anyone else got probes?"... and are greeted with silence. At this point you remember you are in your implant clone...
Though this gang would admittedly be pretty damm dumb to fly with. Its going to happen to someone eventually. A more likely scenario is that half your gang is stuck in pods, with the probers either dead or jumped out of system. What you end up with is a group stranded in one system. No way out but death.
On one hand, I think this really symbolizes everything EvE is striving to be. Cold, Harsh, Stark Reality that needs capitalization to covey the impact. You screwed up, and now everything you flew in is forfeit. Perfect! Much drama and soul search ensues and you hit the self destruct. You're ****ed, but you knew what you were getting into when you went through the wormhole.
Harsh as it is though, you've been there and done that.
Now imagine if a wormhole opened up near a starter system, with one greifer shooting gang invites in local saying, "HEY KIDDIES! Wanna see a wormhole? Just jump through and ignore the warning!" End result, a fleet of n00bs stranded in w-space. They reach out to the petition system, see a category labeled "Stuck", think to themselves "Am I stuck? YES!" and fire away
The wormhole system is quite literally as far away from WoW and conventional MMOs as you can possibly get. Here is a nigh inescapable death trap, that you can only escape through friends or the charity of a stranger. It's what makes the system absolutely awesome for veteran players, but absolutely game breaking for new players. Players who might not even understand "Don't fly what you can't afford to loose". They won't be blaming a ganker or an alliance, they will be blaming only CCP and the game itself.
Can you imagine being trapped by a game mechanic, your petitions being ignore, your forum post being flamed and your ship still stuck? You'd conclude the game was broken and leave. And before you leave, you'd have clogged the petition system needlessly.
Now having one exit wormhole, being displayed on the map like a stargate would be nice. But EvE is not nice... that would be WoW. What I propose is that Aura tells you the in that electronic voice of hers "Congratulation Pilot, You have flown through a wormhole, but you may have completely screwed yourself over. Self-destruct button is on the right click menu. Its working as intended, welcome to EvE", the first time you jump through a wormhole.
It probably won't stop the whining, but it'll help... maybe
:)
EVE, the ever evolving awsome MMO we all enjoy.
I look forward to this, the uncertin element is very interesting, and may need you to think on the feet so to speak.
But, self destruvting your ship is not needed. Park it at a safe spot, eject and pod yourself. But bookmark the place, since there is a tiny tiny chanse you get back there :).
This stuff will however make me train cov ops ships finally :). |
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:45:00 -
[12]
that said wspace will probably be multiplayer co operative small corps small alliances some of the big alliances might setup teams of wspace operations to |
Captain Politics
JotunHeim Hird
X13 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:47:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Captain Politics on 28/01/2009 12:47:16
As most noob chars won't be able to go through wormholes and find them (due to lack of skills), I think the scope of this problem will be limited.... |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Culmen
The wormhole system is quite literally as far away from WoW and conventional MMOs as you can possibly get. Here is a nigh inescapable death trap, that you can only escape through friends or the charity of a stranger. It's what makes the system absolutely awesome for veteran players, but absolutely game breaking for new players. Players who might not even understand "Don't fly what you can't afford to loose". They won't be blaming a ganker or an alliance, they will be blaming only CCP and the game itself.
Thats what makes it beautiful. CCP have hit upon the magic formula for mmorpg playes who loathe gaming with safety nets and mindless linear gameplay. I absolutely adore the idea of dangerous expeditions into w-space that might turn into deathtraps and slaughters. Makes the exploration game exciting again. If some people lose ships and ragequit along the way thats their look out - I can confidently predict many many more players will stay and enjoy the experience that only a decent challenge and risky environment can bring and deliver.
|
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:48:00 -
[15]
i can also see a lot of abandoned ships and unfuelled poses leading toanother career path or an extension of current one - salvager - ship scanner finder thingy basically picing up abandoned wspace stuff left behind |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:48:00 -
[16]
Maybe some nub will get stuck. So what? Either he is going to take it as the challenge it is or he is going to blame ccp/ the "greifers" as you put it and ragequit.
In the former case he learned the first lesson that will help him survive and even prosper in this environment. In the latter case he is clearly not "eve material" and can **** off just like all the other morons.
For me NPE is about learning the ropes, understanding the ui and basic mechanics, making your first iskies. Its not about sugarcoating the game reality. And its certainly not about PR. WTH?
It does neither take isk nor millions of sp to cope with eve - its about the right mentality. You either have it or you don't and things like this will help you find the answer. |
Glassback
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:49:00 -
[17]
I pray to the gods of Eve that this can happen.
Please CCP don't chicken out and make it possible to get stuck there. |
Culmen
Caldari
Blood Phage Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:49:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Culmen on 28/01/2009 12:50:22
Originally by: MILK Monk
when you loose your ship in mission, because you are scrambled by small ratties... who would you blame?
A ship lost missioning returns you to square one in a pod.
that ship loss is an ordinary ship loss.
The majority of early player training is "If ship is lost" ==> "Buy a new ship"
Getting stuck in w-space gets you stuck.
Name one other circumstance in game that the only option is "Hit self-destruct"
In this situation "Go out guns blazing" is not even applicable.
Self destructing is not really presented as a viable option
I don't think the tutorials even mention it.
I personally am going to enjoy wormholing in its current form.
Read the title: I ♥ this idea.
Just want to point out how perplexing the entire situation for n00bs is going to be. |
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:51:00 -
[19]
can also imagine pirate groups living in wspace, the problem randomly occouring outgoing wormholes, will it end up in 00 or empire ( u might be able to restock on the empire wormholes but end up in nowhere actulaly might be just as easy to use an alt to collaspe the hole and try again) i can see that being semi exploitable from wspace point of view.
But u could technically setup out there and live in a wspace system with correct pos setup and a bit of luck in terms of things
Now if u have alts in normal space nad wspace if one closes and youre stuck all u have to do is scan from the other side find where it leads out and then move resupplies around the map to the location of the new wspace entrance. |
Gunnanmon
Gallente
UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2009.01.28 12:53:00 -
[20]
Can someone paraphrase this, please? |
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:55:00 -
[21]
big big changes coming in march eve ship movement becomes more fluid |
Culmen
Caldari
Blood Phage Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 12:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gunnanmon
Can someone paraphrase this, please?
Wormholes: Harsh! Cold! Awesome
Everyone: YAY
n00b:WTF? Clog petition Whine on forum, emo rage quit
Much later... why is eve not growing?
oh and
Culmen:Think of the Newbies plz (put on flame suit) |
Eran Laude
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.01.28 13:01:00 -
[23]
I can imagine organised corps living in W-space - if you can find a system with ice and have a small flotilla ready to go, then you could take a manufacturing POS in, set it up and manufacture fleets using the minerals inside W-space, as long as everyone hopped in a shuttle to go through the wormhole, or a small T2 ship.
W-space shouldn't be for the unprepared or the foolish - this cold harsh universe was never meant to cater to the motsu missionrunners and only corps willing to accept the risks and downsides should have the capacity to set up ops or be able to make serious money off of wild-space. Everyone else can die in there as far as I'm concerned. |
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:02:00 -
[24]
i think wormholes need to be fully explained because yes there will be problems, who cares well ccp shouldnt and the system should go through as is, u will find more gamers will probably stay for just the easier access to null sec type pve. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Culmen
Originally by: Gunnanmon
Can someone paraphrase this, please?
Wormholes: Harsh! Cold! Awesome
Everyone: YAY
n00b:WTF? Clog petition Whine on forum, emo rage quit
Much later... why is eve not growing?
oh and
Culmen:Think of the Newbies plz (put on flame suit)
tl;dr adding 2500 systems will kill eve because 5000 existing systems aren't enough for the newbs.
You're like one of those people that stop people having fun because they think that EVERYTHING has to be "child-safe". So the wormhole systems aren't intended for solo noobs (although I bet there will be some solo noobs who are just fine with them). So what? Why does everything have to be "noob friendly"? CCP FINALLY add something for those who don't want everything to be virtually risk-free....and you complain that it's risky?
Yeah, you trolled me. Well done. Have a cookie, and we can celebrate together that I finish Signal Acquisition 3 today. |
ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Eran Laude
I can imagine organised corps living in W-space - if you can find a system with ice and have a small flotilla ready to go, then you could take a manufacturing POS in, set it up and manufacture fleets using the minerals inside W-space, as long as everyone hopped in a shuttle to go through the wormhole, or a small T2 ship.
W-space shouldn't be for the unprepared or the foolish - this cold harsh universe was never meant to cater to the motsu missionrunners and only corps willing to accept the risks and downsides should have the capacity to set up ops or be able to make serious money off of wild-space. Everyone else can die in there as far as I'm concerned.
if u went for extended timeframes if the wormhole collasped and u had scanners there ready to go and peeps to find em u could simply open up new systems sooner or later u would be able to find a temp route to empire and use that to restock etc - corp mates stuck on outside, easy enough wait till an opening opens up if its empire or low sec and they online u inform em they come out in ships or shuttles |
Culmen
Caldari
Blood Phage Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malcanis
You're like one of those people that stop people having fun because they think that EVERYTHING has to be "child-safe". So the wormhole systems aren't intended for solo noobs (although I bet there will be some solo noobs who are just fine with them). So what? Why does everything have to be "noob friendly"? CCP FINALLY add something for those who don't want everything to be virtually risk-free....and you complain that it's risky?
I never complained it was risky, i just complained it was unexplained
also like to point out
Originally by: Culmen
What I propose is that Aura tells you the in that electronic voice of hers "Congratulation Pilot, You have flown through a wormhole, but you may have completely screwed yourself over. Self-destruct button is on the right click menu. Its working as intended, welcome to EvE", the first time you jump through a wormhole.
|
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:10:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Culmen
Much later... why is eve not growing?
oh and
Culmen:Think of the Newbies plz (put on flame suit)
|
Alagar Huma
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:15:00 -
[29]
What if the w-systems have small one way wormholes that only pods can travel through, is always open, shows on the star map and throws you into a random system.
Thus you would still loose your ship but keep your clone intact, good if you go in your implants clone. It would also open up a new carrer of ship salvagers which would be fun, could hold the ship ransom or just sell them on. Or even kill the owner with their own ship  |
RedSplat
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 13:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: RedSplat on 28/01/2009 13:20:52
Originally by: Culmen
The wormhole system is quite literally as far away from WoW and conventional MMOs as you can possibly get. Here is a nigh inescapable death trap, that you can only escape through friends or the charity of a stranger. It's what makes the system absolutely awesome for veteran players, but absolutely game breaking for new players. Players who might not even understand "Don't fly what you can't afford to loose". They won't be blaming a ganker or an alliance, they will be blaming only CCP and the game itself.
Sounds like paradise to me.
Just as long as asshat mega alliance 1/c.2 doesn't set up a series of deathstar POS in every system they find. Mass limitations could make them essentially invulnerable and the logistics really aren't as problematic as they seem at first.
People will be paying good isk for the location of entrance points to systems with POS in, you heard it here first.
EDIT: and if you get podded in W-Space and dont wake up in a clone, as said space is so far away the clone depo doesnt know you 'died'....holy mother of whines |
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