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A naming convention for worm hole space.

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Farnett The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.31 03:30:00 - [1] I have been thinking about how to differentiate the w-space systems of the past few days and I believe that in addition to differentiating the systems any convention put forth should also supply useful information about that system. With this in mind I have come up with the following convention: [Spectral type] - [# of Planets] - [# of ice belts] - [# of asteroid fields] Under this naming convention; Jita = F1V-8-0-0 Ikuchi = K3V-6-0-8 Unpas = K4V-10-0-22 You can find the spectral type of a star by (while in space) selecting the star and clicking on show info. This will display an info screen displaying info on surface temperature, spectral type, age, etc. I also make a few assumptions about w-space that I'm not sure will be true. 1. by right clicking in space you will receive a list of planets and asteroidbelts/icebelts 2. the stellar information will be available in w-space. Also, I'd like the community to test this, but I have yet to find a star without a "V" as the 3rd character in its spectral type, and i'm not sure if it actually conveys any information. If a Dev could let me know if my assumptions are right, and if you the community could test this convention thruought eve, (and let me know if that V denotes anything) I think we may have a convention to differentiate these new systems. Besides the initial spectral class, all of the numbers are easy to find and portray a degree of useful information to anyone who may encounter the system. Whole databases will likely be filled by the influx of data on all of the new systems, but I feel that this convention, though likely to return a few duplicates, will go a long way towards marking our exploration of these systems.
Farnett The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.31 03:30:00 - [2] reserved
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.31 19:16:00 - [3] Sounds viable. I'll consider using it. Biggest problem seems to be that it might not resolve well enough. I'd add in total number of moons.
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.31 19:43:00 - [4] Interesting idea; I may consider using this system or something similar. I think you might be able to drop the "# of ice belts" part, as I'm pretty sure I remember a dev post saying "no ice belts in w-space". I also concur that number of moons may help differentiate two systems if they have the same spectral/planets/belts. That said, should it be "Spectral - Planets - Belts - Moons" or "Spectral - Planets - Moons - Belts"? I'm personally leaning towards the latter. I'd also consider adding P/M/A in front of the numbers so on the chance someone puts them in a different order, you'd still be able to discern what number signifies what. Using your example, Jita would be "F1V-P8-M??-A0" (didn't want to bother counting the moons in Jita).
Farnett The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.31 21:11:00 - [5] Well they're ordered in order of what's the easiest to find out. So it should probably go planets-asteroid belts-moons. I did consider moons at first, but I shied away because I thought it would be too time consuming to count up all the moons. Since then i've had a lot of people say that they should be included, so let's throw them in there. Also, though ice-belts may be useful for anyone trying to run a pos out in w-space, the small number of ice belts in any system doesn't increase the resolution considerably. Adding P,M,A in front of each is just unnecessary clutter though. People can learn what they stand for. So the convention is now at: [Spectral Type]-[# of Planets]-[# of Asteroid belts]-[# of Moons] I'm going to try and test this today on 100 or more systems to try and see what the resolution is, and what the likelyhood is of two systems having the same name.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.01 07:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Horchan Interesting idea; I may consider using this system or something similar. I think you might be able to drop the "# of ice belts" part, as I'm pretty sure I remember a dev post saying "no ice belts in w-space". No, you're wrong about ice there http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=14#404 Originally by: CCP Whisper There may be ice in W-space. Whether it is of the type you need to run the type of tower you've dragged into the system is another matter. As is whether the belt will remain in the system all the time. Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.02.01 08:04:00 - [7] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Horchan Interesting idea; I may consider using this system or something similar. I think you might be able to drop the "# of ice belts" part, as I'm pretty sure I remember a dev post saying "no ice belts in w-space". No, you're wrong about ice there http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=14#404 Originally by: CCP Whisper There may be ice in W-space. Whether it is of the type you need to run the type of tower you've dragged into the system is another matter. As is whether the belt will remain in the system all the time. Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. Ugh, if ice belts aren't static then there's a good chance the roid belts won't be either. I think we might have to wait till these systems crop up on Sisi before we start nailing down a naming convention.
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.02.01 11:00:00 - [8] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Horchan Interesting idea; I may consider using this system or something similar. I think you might be able to drop the "# of ice belts" part, as I'm pretty sure I remember a dev post saying "no ice belts in w-space". No, you're wrong about ice there http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=14#404 Originally by: CCP Whisper There may be ice in W-space. Whether it is of the type you need to run the type of tower you've dragged into the system is another matter. As is whether the belt will remain in the system all the time. Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. Or maybe he's not... Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: DaemonBarber Will there be ice? Under the current plan, no. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=24#715
Aleera	Posted - 2009.02.01 13:01:00 - [9] hehe S-P-A-M.... should be easy to remember
F4LC0N	Posted - 2009.02.01 19:48:00 - [10] This is a good idea but didnt ccp wanted to make the belts none static or only foundable by scanning for them? So i guess S-P-M might be the best.
Farnett The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:24:00 - [11] Originally by: F4LC0N This is a good idea but didnt ccp wanted to make the belts none static or only foundable by scanning for them? So i guess S-P-M might be the best. Well I'd like to include asteroid belts if possible, if only to decrease the odds of duplicates. But i've been finding enough variability in spectral type and the number of moons that we may be able to get by with just S-P-M. Planets vary from aprox 5->15 moons vary from less than 10 to over 100 and after 30 systems i still haven't found a repeating spectral type (I realy wish this was included in the data dump). It'll be interesting to see if they matched the distribution of spectral types to the RL distribution.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.02.02 04:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Farnett It'll be interesting to see if they matched the distribution of spectral types to the RL distribution. Look at the star map. You can view by star color. No way that's 75% red stars. Having said that, the most common red stars (and indeed the most common stars period) are "metal" poor red dwarfs. By metal, I mean that they have very little of anything heavier than helium (yes, carbon and oxygen are "metal"). None of the empires would be very interested in setting up a jumpgate to such a red dwarf aside from strategic reasons.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Farnett Edited by: Farnett on 31/01/2009 21:21:05 Edited by: Farnett on 31/01/2009 11:07:14 I have been thinking about how to differentiate the w-space systems of the past few days and I believe that in addition to differentiating the systems any convention put forth should also supply useful information about that system. With this in mind I have come up with the following convention: [Spectral type] - [# of Planets] - [# of asteroid fields] - [# of moons] Under this naming convention; Jita = F1V-8-0-33 Ikuchi = K3V-6-8-20 Unpas = K4V-10-22-43 You can find the spectral type of a star by (while in space) selecting the star and clicking on show info. This will display an info screen displaying info on surface temperature, spectral type, age, etc. I also make a few assumptions about w-space that I'm not sure will be true. 1. by right clicking in space you will receive a list of planets moons, and asteroid belts 2. the stellar information will be available in w-space. Also, I'd like the community to test this, but I have yet to find a star without a "V" as the 3rd character in its spectral type, and i'm not sure if it actually conveys any information. If a Dev could let me know if my assumptions are right, and if you the community could test this convention thruought eve, (and let me know if that V denotes anything) I think we may have a convention to differentiate these new systems. Besides the initial spectral class, all of the numbers are easy to find and portray a degree of useful information to anyone who may encounter the system. Whole databases will likely be filled by the influx of data on all of the new systems, but I feel that this convention, though likely to return a few duplicates, will go a long way towards marking our exploration of these systems. all feedback is apreciated. please test this in your mission or even your 0.0 systems. the more feedback the better. EDIT: edited to reflect the updated convention. i like this , how about this? [spectral type] - [# of planets] -[distance in AU from sun to farthest planet] alot easier and faster to get down than counting up all the moons, and provides enough variability to make sure of no duplication only problem is there may be some variation +/- .001 AU range depending on the vector of warp in. thoughts?
Farnett The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.02 23:33:00 - [14] Originally by: rubico1337 i like this , how about this? [spectral type] - [# of planets] -[distance in AU from sun to farthest planet] alot easier and faster to get down than counting up all the moons, and provides enough variability to make sure of no duplication only problem is there may be some variation +/- .001 AU range depending on the vector of warp in. thoughts? Well if we were to use this i'd suggest cutting it off at either 1AU or 0.1AU. Three digits is plenty of variability. My main problem is that it requires you to go to one of two set points to measure the distance, either the star or the last planet. While this isn't especially difficult, it does immediately create two camping spots for anyone hunting for explorers. I will admit that counting moons can be a pain in the *** though, so perhaps this could be a replacement for that. Quite frankly I'd like to get as many ideas on the table now before W-space hits singularity so that when it hits we can quickly settle on a convention and get as many people on board as possible before the patch.
Yurda Dei Central Logistics and Insider Trading Corp	Posted - 2009.02.03 01:10:00 - [15] For people to remember it, you need to keep it simple. Even a noob will remember S-P-A-M.
Prometheus09 Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.03 02:08:00 - [16] IF your going to make a database incorperationg a screenshot of the system would help to reduce duplicates. IF there are two systems that looks similar just pull out he screenshot and compare them. However if the screenshots are taken at diffent angles it could be difficult to determine if they are the same system. So people would have to take the screenshot at the same angle. eg. keeping the outer most plant facing the top of the monitor.
Trimutius III Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.03 02:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Trimutius III on 03/02/2009 02:26:09 I think quite a good number is: Maximum number of belts that one planet have. For example if 1st planet has 4 belts 2nd 9 belts 3rd 7 belts and 4th 8 belts... Then this number would be 9... And it's easy to get this number you just look at list of belts in space and you'll see wihtout any problem which of planet has maximum belts and how much is it. Of course the same number you may apply for moons but it would take longer to get such number for moons, but no problem at all (while counting moons you may look that maximum moons number)
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.03 08:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Farnett Originally by: rubico1337 i like this , how about this? [spectral type] - [# of planets] -[distance in AU from sun to farthest planet] alot easier and faster to get down than counting up all the moons, and provides enough variability to make sure of no duplication only problem is there may be some variation +/- .001 AU range depending on the vector of warp in. thoughts? Well if we were to use this i'd suggest cutting it off at either 1AU or 0.1AU. Three digits is plenty of variability. My main problem is that it requires you to go to one of two set points to measure the distance, either the star or the last planet. While this isn't especially difficult, it does immediately create two camping spots for anyone hunting for explorers. I will admit that counting moons can be a pain in the *** though, so perhaps this could be a replacement for that. Quite frankly I'd like to get as many ideas on the table now before W-space hits singularity so that when it hits we can quickly settle on a convention and get as many people on board as possible before the patch. good point, maybe only to the .1 AU would be effective. but honestly i dont think there will be much if any duplication with spectral type- no of planets just by itself
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.03 09:42:00 - [19] wspace - wormy space k space = known space
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Farnett [Spectral type] - [# of Planets] - [# of asteroid fields] - [# of moons] .. a star without a "V" After a little bit of playing with CCP database exports, 5431 star systems of Eve could comment: - Proposed naming conventiong probably doesn't look sufficient; only 77% (4169) of current systems are unique under that scheme. - Some names have up to 4 possible resolutions, like G7V-9-7-43 => (MY-T2P, Amdonen, N-5QPW, Khabara) - In spectral type 'V' means a bit, some 14% of system have either IV or VI instead. Anyway, the naming convetion is also pondered upon another thread. Would think that some automated naming systems are possible, and those feasible. For example: - People run their client under logserver, which rather fast spits out solarSystemID - Small thirdparty application then parses this data, submits it to central WWW-database - People get system name / data; those who submit extra data get more accesses -Lasse
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:38:00 - [21] Originally by: rubico1337 i like this , how about this? [spectral type] - [# of planets] -[distance in AU from sun to farthest planet] alot easier and faster to get down than counting up all the moons, and provides enough variability to make sure of no duplication only problem is there may be some variation +/- .001 AU range depending on the vector of warp in. thoughts? Easier to write down, but you leave out the information that people want: moons & belts. My own idea was to use Spectral type, the belt count, then each planet's moons: K4V 12 0 0 2 15 7 12
Farnett The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Heikki Originally by: Farnett [Spectral type] - [# of Planets] - [# of asteroid fields] - [# of moons] .. a star without a "V" After a little bit of playing with CCP database exports, 5431 star systems of Eve could comment: - Proposed naming conventiong probably doesn't look sufficient; only 77% (4169) of current systems are unique under that scheme. - Some names have up to 4 possible resolutions, like G7V-9-7-43 => (MY-T2P, Amdonen, N-5QPW, Khabara) - In spectral type 'V' means a bit, some 14% of system have either IV or VI instead. Anyway, the naming convetion is also pondered upon another thread. Would think that some automated naming systems are possible, and those feasible. For example: - People run their client under logserver, which rather fast spits out solarSystemID - Small thirdparty application then parses this data, submits it to central WWW-database - People get system name / data; those who submit extra data get more accesses -Lasse Thanks for running the numbers, I was hoping for less duplication though, 25% is too much. I'd like to get it down to 1% for known space, which should give only 0.5% (~6 duplicates) for w-space. It looks like we'll have to add another variable to the name. And if you'll believe me, I really hadn't seen that other thread. I tend to avoid General discussion and CAOD whenever possible for the sake of my own sanity. I do agree with the general consensus from that thread though. The sysID is not user friendly, and will be ignored by the majority of EVE. For the purpose of developing programs though, it does present a great piece of information. I could see something that would read the ID and bring up a page with full info on the system. However, unless there is a program which will automate the reporting process and allow thousands of people to submit that information in return for access and a unique user friendly name (generated by the database if it's unique, or returned if not) this won't be adopted. There are simply too many systems for even just a small group to classify them all in any reasonable amount of time. In the other thread they mentioned a mean value of 21,000 jumps to reach all 2500+ systems. Assuming it took 5 min to scan down the next wormhole, that you manage to never jump to known space, and that you did that 23/7 it would take 76 days worth of work (1750 man hours) to simply visit every system. So let's pick a fifth factor. I believe that it's distinctly possible that we are going to warp into w-space, right click, and have no solar system info come up. Instead we're going to have to drop a probe, set it to its maximum range and run a scan to find everything. This would make counting moons and asteroid fields much much harder, and determining which planet has the most equally annoying. This makes me lean towards using the distance from sun to last planet as the 5th variable, but let's think up some more things that we can use to classify systems. Just spit them out and i'll make a list of them in my reserved post.
Trimutius III Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:32:00 - [23] First of all. I want to say that to find out info about distance from star to planet it's not neccesary to warp anywhere, because this data is written in info of any planet. And then i think it might be such a system: You just open info of star and info of planet (first or last), and you see 5 numbers in info of star and 10 numbers in info of planet. So if 5-7 criteria out of such number that could be easily seen in info then it would be easier for users to use this system because they won't need to count something, they'll just look info and get everything they need. And if we take last planet in system then it brings us 11 numbers (the quantity of planets and 10 attributes) So if we take some of this 16 numbers it would be easy to use and no need to warp somewhere or count anything... ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:20:00 - [24] Edited by: rubico1337 on 04/02/2009 07:25:54 Originally by: Trimutius III Edited by: Trimutius III on 04/02/2009 04:39:11 First of all. I want to say that to find out info about distance from star to planet it's not neccesary to warp anywhere, because this data is written in info of any planet. And then i think it might be such a system: You just open info of star and info of planet (first or last), and you see 5 numbers in info of star and 10 numbers in info of planet. So if we take 5-7 criteria out of this. It could be easily seen in info, so it would be easier for users to use this system because they won't need to count something, they'll just look info and get everything they need. And if we take last planet in system then it brings us 11 numbers (the quantity of planets and 10 attributes) So there are 16 number to choose from. there are 5 variables under info of a sun, temerature, spectral class, luminosity, age, and radius i think using any 3 of these variables would single out any system. another idea to ponder ah yes. i forgot about that, this would cut out the possibility of error or camping the sun or farthest plane, and would give more than enough variability to weed out duplicates. i really thing that [spectral type]- [#of planets] - [ AU distance to farthest planet] would work very well as its easy to gather the info and is sufficiently discriminatory Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Farnett Originally by: Heikki Originally by: Farnett [Spectral type] - [# of Planets] - [# of asteroid fields] - [# of moons] .. a star without a "V" After a little bit of playing with CCP database exports, 5431 star systems of Eve could comment: - Proposed naming conventiong probably doesn't look sufficient; only 77% (4169) of current systems are unique under that scheme. - Some names have up to 4 possible resolutions, like G7V-9-7-43 => (MY-T2P, Amdonen, N-5QPW, Khabara) - In spectral type 'V' means a bit, some 14% of system have either IV or VI instead. Anyway, the naming convetion is also pondered upon another thread. Would think that some automated naming systems are possible, and those feasible. For example: - People run their client under logserver, which rather fast spits out solarSystemID - Small thirdparty application then parses this data, submits it to central WWW-database - People get system name / data; those who submit extra data get more accesses -Lasse Thanks for running the numbers, I was hoping for less duplication though, 25% is too much. I'd like to get it down to 1% for known space, which should give only 0.5% (~6 duplicates) for w-space. It looks like we'll have to add another variable to the name. And if you'll believe me, I really hadn't seen that other thread. I tend to avoid General discussion and CAOD whenever possible for the sake of my own sanity. I do agree with the general consensus from that thread though. The sysID is not user friendly, and will be ignored by the majority of EVE. For the purpose of developing programs though, it does present a great piece of information. I could see something that would read the ID and bring up a page with full info on the system. However, unless there is a program which will automate the reporting process and allow thousands of people to submit that information in return for access and a unique user friendly name (generated by the database if it's unique, or returned if not) this won't be adopted. There are simply too many systems for even just a small group to classify them all in any reasonable amount of time. In the other thread they mentioned a mean value of 21,000 jumps to reach all 2500+ systems. Assuming it took 5 min to scan down the next wormhole, that you manage to never jump to known space, and that you did that 23/7 it would take 76 days worth of work (1750 man hours) to simply visit every system. So let's pick a fifth factor. I believe that it's distinctly possible that we are going to warp into w-space, right click, and have no solar system info come up. Instead we're going to have to drop a probe, set it to its maximum range and run a scan to find everything. This would make counting moons and asteroid fields much much harder, and determining which planet has the most equally annoying. This makes me lean towards using the distance from sun to last planet as the 5th variable, but let's think up some more things that we can use to classify systems. Just spit them out and i'll make a list of them in my reserved post. i highly doubt that current UI info will be any different than info provided in 0.0, minus the presence of gates of course. but it would make it interesting Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2009.02.04 13:33:00 - [26] After some more tinkering with the database export * Identical systems - 583 of those 5431 systems (11%) have identical pair; hence no naming scheme would separate them. - I compared only Star data (6 database fields) for all. Manually comparing Akkilen (Forge, 0.7) and Pemene (Essence, 0.5) confirm them to be identical, up to details of moons and planets. Only visible difference is station data. - Either CCP got lazy, or their system building algorithm didn't have enough seed values.. A few other of those 583 pairs if someone wants to check them too: XSQ-TF,Latari \| Yadi,EMIG-F \| YHEN-G,Arraron \| YXIB-I,Nebian \| Y-ZXIO,LW-YEW \| Zaid,DT-PXH \| Zemalu,QCDG-H * Bare systems Then we also have the case of 38 system apparently missing attributes for all orbital bodies, like Akhwa, Usteli and Todeko (even in UI). And some 600 more missing data for their star (like Eha, Mesokel). * CONSEQUENCES So, with W-space it all depends whether CCP will again generate identical systems or not. If they will, then we gotta use systemID, otherwise it gets easy. If we prune identical systems and those without attributes, we find that sufficient naming schemes coud be: - Star Age,Temperature : 0 collisions - Star Radius, Temperature : 4 collisions - Star Radius, Age : 1 collision Variants based on OP's proposition: - Original : 66 collisions like "K7V-9-9-53 (Ammold, 9-KWXC, Z-Y9C3, XKH-6O)" - Using Temperature instead of Spectral : 1 collision (5212.0-8-6-14 (FZ-6A5, D85-VD)) - Using Radius : 2 collisions * CONCLUSION Would say lets forget central manual naming system, and leave it up to automated systemID based things. -Lasse for data games
Trimutius III Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 12:38:00 - [27] Edited by: Trimutius III on 05/02/2009 12:39:44 Edited by: Trimutius III on 05/02/2009 12:38:33 Originally by: Heikki - I compared only Star data (6 database fields) for all. Manually comparing Akkilen (Forge, 0.7) and Pemene (Essence, 0.5) confirm them to be identical, up to details of moons and planets. Only visible difference is station data. That's wierd. But this 2 systems are totally same. Even Planets and moons and Asteroid Belts have the same attributes. They are just clones except for stargates and stations. But there is no stargates and stations in W-space, and if there would be such a clones in W-Space then the only way to differ them is system ID.
HellsAngell	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:58:00 - [28] ok i found what says to be a "unstable wormhole"...is this the wormhole u guys talking bout or is it just some uninteresting stuff?
Trimutius III Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 03:10:00 - [29] Edited by: Trimutius III on 06/02/2009 03:10:53 Originally by: HellsAngell ok i found what says to be a "unstable wormhole"...is this the wormhole u guys talking bout or is it just some uninteresting stuff? There was a dev blog about wormholes. We're talking about something connected to that info, but just trying to make naming convetion for systems on the other side of wormholes, that would be useful in future, and we aren't talking about wormholes at all... ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.02.06 11:44:00 - [30] I say we wait for the changes to hit Sisi, then decide what's best for naming. We MAY find some genious way to sort the CCP internal name of the systems. Like using BMs (look up system name in 'people and places table'), or by the name of any object we find in the system. If the system got no name, but the star is named 'W-2034', I would lean strongy about using it as the system name too. And the unstable wormholes currently ingame are just eye-candy in independence drone plex. Ignore it for now.

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