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Poppa Gringo	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:29:00 - [1] Whether most people are aware or not, the Pilgrim and curse are the Amarr recons. The Curse is the Combat recon and the Pilgrim is the Force Recon. The difference being the Pilgrim can cloak, and the Curse cannot. Now that all the "basics" are covered. To my Point. Amarr cruiser bonuses aside, the recon bonuses for the Curse are as follows, 40% bonus to vamp and neut range, and 20% bonus to transfer amount per level. Now for the bonuses on the Pilgrim. It has the same cap transfer bonus of 20% but it doesnt have the range bonus that the curse has, that the rapier has, that the Falcon has, and that the arazu has. Why do all the other Force recons get a range bonus to their forte yet the pilgrim is left with a MAX 14km range on its neuts. Now i see a solution to this, and bare with me. All the combat recons have a damage bonus OF SOME SORT. On the pilgrim, lose the 10% bonus to drones for cruiser per level, and give the ship the range it needs. After all, the difference between all the combat recons to the force recons is the drop of the damage bonus in this case the drones. Falcons have huge range that can completely disable mulitple opponents, arazu has a very long range on its Warp disrupter and rapier for its webs. Why cant the pilgrim have its neut range? This ship is not beig used as much as it could be for this reason. Am i wrong?
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:32:00 - [2] The range is why I stopped useing it. It's why I switched to the Rapier.
Bigsleezy Caldari Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:38:00 - [3] Not bad, you'll get shot down but I gotta see what reason ccp come up with for this one. Good argument
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:39:00 - [4] Just stick a bunch of fitting mods on it and a Large Officer Destabilizer... CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:41:00 - [5] pilgrim is fine. It does way more dps and tanks much better than a rook or falcon and kill almost any ship solo 1v1. l2p.
Poppa Gringo	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:46:00 - [6] Hmmm, why is that? The force recon should not be doing more damage than the COMBAT recon.
Poppa Gringo	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:48:00 - [7] Besides the cloaking recons although possible to 1v1 is not its primary goal. The idea should be to provide fleet support from a somewhat protected range.
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:56:00 - [8] I have to agree with Gringo. the 0.0 roaming gangs I go on are usually Rapiers, Arazu's and Falcons. Why? Becuase they can all do their damage from range, they can use their main "skill" webs, Scrams, ECM from range. We dont' use pilgrims because they get caught in bubbles and such too easily. Hostiles warp in, and they land on top of the Pilgrims. Where as a properly used Rapier, Arazu or Falcon should never be closer then 20km.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.03 05:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Poppa Gringo Hmmm, why is that? The force recon should not be doing more damage than the COMBAT recon. ? It doesn't, unless you're going for a really unusual gank pilgrim fit. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
To mare	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:37:00 - [10] the difference between combat and force racon is that the combat recon trade The cloak for a combat bonus, Ewar bonus rest the same for all the races. amarr Ewar is tracking disruptor, neuts regard combat. this is why the curse get 1 more combat bonus of the pilgrim. oh and minmatar Ewar are target painters not webs
hellsknights SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Poppa Gringo Whether most people are aware or not, the Pilgrim and curse are the Amarr recons. The Curse is the Combat recon and the Pilgrim is the Force Recon. The difference being the Pilgrim can cloak, and the Curse cannot. Now that all the "basics" are covered. To my Point. Amarr cruiser bonuses aside, the recon bonuses for the Curse are as follows, 40% bonus to vamp and neut range, and 20% bonus to transfer amount per level. Now for the bonuses on the Pilgrim. It has the same cap transfer bonus of 20% but it doesnt have the range bonus that the curse has, that the rapier has, that the Falcon has, and that the arazu has. Why do all the other Force recons get a range bonus to their forte yet the pilgrim is left with a MAX 14km range on its neuts. Now i see a solution to this, and bare with me. All the combat recons have a damage bonus OF SOME SORT. On the pilgrim, lose the 10% bonus to drones for cruiser per level, and give the ship the range it needs. After all, the difference between all the combat recons to the force recons is the drop of the damage bonus in this case the drones. Falcons have huge range that can completely disable mulitple opponents, arazu has a very long range on its Warp disrupter and rapier for its webs. Why cant the pilgrim have its neut range? This ship is not beig used as much as it could be for this reason. Am i wrong? If the Pilgrim had the same bonuses as the Curse it would be overpowered, pretty simple answer.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:50:00 - [12] OPs idea is poor, pilgrim excells at solo and wolfpack work, not gang environment. Use it in the correct situation and it is fine, but your proposed change breaks it as a solo ship, removing that which makes it worth flying, which, if you hadn't guessed, is a bad thing. To my regret I agree with Stab Wounds in this instance, l2p; pilgrim =! cloaking curse.
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:53:00 - [13] If you removed the drone damage bonus on the Pilgrim, then what use would it be? All it could really do then is fly around and neut stuff with minimal DPS. Quite frankly, since the Curse can already fly around and neut stuff, as well as have the drone bonus, there would zero reason to use Pilgrim if you removed drone bonus and gave it range on neuts. I guess it could fly around as a cloaked scout though, but you can use an alt or an inty to do that anyways right? Why blow 70mill on a hull when you can settle for 10mill or just an alt in a rookie ship. True though, the lack of range on Neuts does limit the Pilgrim, so most who fly solo have to pick their targets carefully. Then again, does anyone really fly solo in EVE anymore?
uzumoreru	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Misina Arlath Then again, does anyone really fly solo in EVE anymore? Killing off more solo boats doesn't exactly provide a route for a soloing comeback (as a playstyle).
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:22:00 - [15] Originally by: uzumoreru Originally by: Misina Arlath Then again, does anyone really fly solo in EVE anymore? Killing off more solo boats doesn't exactly provide a route for a soloing comeback (as a playstyle). True enough. As it is though the combat recons are decent solo ships, as well as most of the AF's, but they fall short when facing the blob, which makes people not want to risk it, so they don't fly solo anyways. Best shot at solo play and 1v1 is Faction Warfare I guess. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:43:00 - [16] no, fw is all lame blobbage as far as i've seen. at least, that is to say there is not much solo action. but solo pvp does exist, and so does small gang pvp. but to find it it must first be your goal. the pilgrim rocks, i don't know why you guys are knocking it. It has some very very interesting options, but you cannot expect it to fulfil the role of another ship. u use it differently that you would use a curse, you have the advantage of surprise and therefore posistion, so decloak in scram range. voila! all range problems solved, you know which script to fit now don't you? yep tracking speed [Pilgrim, Pilgrim] Damage Control II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Tracking Disruptor II Tracking Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 use it for that which it is designed and you will fall in love with it. that fit needs recon 5, youll have to alter it a bit to make it work with 4 "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:45:00 - [17] [Pilgrim, Lol fit] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Ancillary Current Router I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Hammerhead II x5 There's your puppy :) ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
Morel Nova z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Vanthropy u use it differently that you would use a curse, you have the advantage of surprise and therefore posistion, so decloak in scram range. voila! all range problems solved, you know which script to fit now don't you? yep tracking speed unless its a close range BC like hurricane with AC, then you use dual optimal range disruption and kite his ass. mmm, love dual optimal disruption. I find training armor rigging as high as you can stand worth it for the pilgrim, maneuvering into scram range is painful when you are slowed down by dual trimarks etc Originally by: Vanthropy use it for that which it is designed and you will fall in love with it. that fit needs recon 5, youll have to alter it a bit to make it work with 4 qft, the pilgrim is the first ship that has really made me want to train the skill to 5 even though its not a prerequisite (still stuck on recon 4 atm though). also, I would still use a small neut instead of the 3rd medium, its a nice effortless way to keep stuff capped out (ravens without injector etc) while conserving your cap. I find the amount of cap 800 charges you can carry is pretty limiting, especially since I usually have a small bubble in my hold too (leaves me 7 charges which go bye bye quick if target also has a neut). Put in space whales!
Corwain	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:44:00 - [19] Since the speed nerf and the new Scram mechanics the Pilgrim has been revitalized. It could still use an extra mid since it requires cap mods that it didn't before the nos nerf, or just flat out better cap to run its neuts, but that's about it. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Nomad Storm The Wandering Path	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:49:00 - [20] Just when I thought my pilgrim was safe after not seeing anymore "fix" pilgrim threads this shows up . Go whine about the falcon like everyone else.
Poppa Gringo	Posted - 2009.02.03 18:36:00 - [21] But you all have to admit that the pilgrim does not follow the usual recon bonus plan... It is the only Force recon without a range bonus for anything. I never said ARGHH YOU CANT SOLO IN IT... did not even imply that. I was just stating how it would be nice to have a cloaking cap drainer with a little range on it to be used in GANGS. Granted if you are flying with a falcon attacking a single target U can get close enough to hump them. And as for those fits they look solid. Just not what im looking for
Kakuremichi	Posted - 2009.02.03 18:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Poppa Gringo But you all have to admit that the pilgrim does not follow the usual recon bonus plan... It is the only Force recon without a range bonus for anything. I never said ARGHH YOU CANT SOLO IN IT... did not even imply that. I was just stating how it would be nice to have a cloaking cap drainer with a little range on it to be used in GANGS. Granted if you are flying with a falcon attacking a single target U can get close enough to hump them. And as for those fits they look solid. Just not what im looking for Stick a cloak on a curse.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Poppa Gringo fleet support /facepalm No. No. No. No. Arazu is no fleet support. Rapier is a very limited fleet support. In both those cases, Lachesis and Huginn does the fleet support role "better" (arguable, depends if you fit a probe launcher and use them as scout or not too). Falcon is still useful in fleets. However, if you by "fleet" mean "small gang", you are right. But a small gang is not a fleet. Just because the ingame mechanic call any group of 2 and more a 'fleet', it doesn't make it a fleet. Look up the definition of the term, it's quite alot of people in a fleet. In that small gang role, the Pilgrim does perfectly fine. In my 2man recon team the Pilgrim is laying out 450dps and still performing it's task perfectly fine. If I wanted to replace that damage I would have to take hundreds of Falcons, or two-three Arazu/Rapiers with me. It's a massive difference. The Pilgrims role is not to neut, it's to deal damage and tracking disrupt. The Curses role is to neut. It's perfectly fine as it is, the main issue with it is players, who want it to perform a role the Curse is playing. Yes, the Amarr recons are "reversed" in a sense, the Combat Recon doing the Force Recon 'job', and other way around. But that's perfectly fine, if you just realise what your job is. What Pilgrim need is a total cap boost (doing a couple of hundred AU warps in 7 jumps just because you fit a MWD shouldn't happen at max cap/warp drive operation skills), and a tad more CPU so it (like the other Force Recons) can fit full t2 at Recon IV (with all cpu-related skills at lv5).
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Poppa Gringo fleet support /facepalm No. No. No. No. Arazu is no fleet support. Rapier is a very limited fleet support. In both those cases, Lachesis and Huginn does the fleet support role "better" (arguable, depends if you fit a probe launcher and use them as scout or not too). Falcon is still useful in fleets. However, if you by "fleet" mean "small gang", you are right. But a small gang is not a fleet. Just because the ingame mechanic call any group of 2 and more a 'fleet', it doesn't make it a fleet. Look up the definition of the term, it's quite alot of people in a fleet. In that small gang role, the Pilgrim does perfectly fine. In my 2man recon team the Pilgrim is laying out 450dps and still performing it's task perfectly fine. If I wanted to replace that damage I would have to take hundreds of Falcons, or two-three Arazu/Rapiers with me. It's a massive difference. Basically this, except in my small teams the role is to shut down tanks/offensive weapons/ewar on target ships. Quote: It's perfectly fine as it is, the main issue with it is players, who want it to perform a role the Curse is playing. Yes, the Amarr recons are "reversed" in a sense, the Combat Recon doing the Force Recon 'job', and other way around. But that's perfectly fine, if you just realise what your job is. Curse is for larger mobile overt capacitor and turret affective warfare, pilgrim is for smaller covert disabling and tackling. Quote: What Pilgrim need is a total cap boost (doing a couple of hundred AU warps in 7 jumps just because you fit a MWD shouldn't happen at max cap/warp drive operation skills), and a tad more CPU so it (like the other Force Recons) can fit full t2 at Recon IV (with all cpu-related skills at lv5). Not complaining here
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.03 20:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Misanth ... the Pilgrim is laying out 450dps ... Just so you know, fitting 3x T2 heavy pulse with AN multi and 5x T2 hammers w/max skills on a pilgrim with 3x HS II deals less than 450 dps without overloading, and that's totally ignoring the ships neut bonus. Max skill hammers alone(in a proper setup) deal 238 dps.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.03 20:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Selia Rain Originally by: Misanth ... the Pilgrim is laying out 450dps ... Just so you know, fitting 3x T2 heavy pulse with AN multi and 5x T2 hammers w/max skills on a pilgrim with 3x HS II deals less than 450 dps without overloading, and that's totally ignoring the ships neut bonus. Max skill hammers alone(in a proper setup) deal 238 dps. 4x Amarr Navy Heat Sink. Just under 450dps, I was being lazy and rounded it up.
Heriom Gallente Middleton and Mercer LLP Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.03 21:02:00 - [27] Edited by: Heriom on 03/02/2009 21:05:20 Originally by: Misanth In that small gang role, the Pilgrim does perfectly fine. In my 2man recon team the Pilgrim is laying out 450dps and still performing it's task perfectly fine. If I wanted to replace that damage I would have to take hundreds of Falcons, or two-three Arazu/Rapiers with me. It's a massive difference. Max skills with a pilgrim flying 5 Hammerhead IIs and three Heavy Pulse IIs comes just under 450 dps. So no neuts? No nos? Then why even fly the pilgrim when other ships can do this much better? Not to mention it only leaves two low slots left for a tank since the other three have to have heat sinks to reach this damage. Don't get me wrong, I love the Pilgrim the way it is. I just think that to make up for it's range loss it needs some sort of boost to its tank since it is forced to fight inside web range. Since it already has all the bonuses it needs, I would love to see its bandwidth uppsed to 125 so it could use heavy drones to make up for its lack of tank or for it to have an extra bit of love added to its tank. Not another bonus. Originally by: Misanth 4x Amarr Navy Heat Sink. Just under 450dps, I was being lazy and rounded it up. So you are putting 240 mil isk in heat sinks? Isn't that kind of sill that you need to put that much isk into a recon to make it viable for you? If you put that much isk into a Zealot or Sac it would serve that purpose much better by far. Just my 2 isk
Poppa Gringo	Posted - 2009.02.04 00:45:00 - [28] now there is an idea... bigger drone bay. I think people would agree for the most part that the pilgrim needs something, whether this be in te lin of cap or cpu or drones. It just seemed odd to me hoe the other force recons do the same as the combat recons except the pilgrim. Just didnt seem right. Rook jams like the falcon, rapier webs like the hugin, and the arazu has the point range of the lachesis. I understand that the pilgrim is supposed to use tracking disrupters... it also take less fuel to open cynos. But no one uses recons for that... Just because the bonus is there does not make it the absolute reason to fly the ship. Caldari jams, Gallente points, Minmatar webs, and Amarr should suck cap.
Morel Nova z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity	Posted - 2009.02.04 09:45:00 - [29] Edited by: Morel Nova on 04/02/2009 09:55:33 Edited by: Morel Nova on 04/02/2009 09:54:10 Originally by: Heriom Don't get me wrong, I love the Pilgrim the way it is. I just think that to make up for it's range loss it needs some sort of boost to its tank since it is forced to fight inside web range. Since it already has all the bonuses it needs, I would love to see its bandwidth uppsed to 125 so it could use heavy drones to make up for its lack of tank or for it to have an extra bit of love added to its tank. Not another bonus. its tank is still great compared to other recons and I have yet to actually fail a 1v1 because my tank wasnt good enough (t2 fitted cruise ravens are no problem, and anything with turrets cant touch you, I can win against HAM drakes but its tough (i.e if the ham guy had good skills I prob would loose)). The pilgrims problem is getting away if it turns out your target is a trap because there just isnt enough cpu to fit a MWD without totally screwing the ship over and you just arent running away out of dictor bubbles with an AB. Thats with recon IV anyway. One more midslot would be awsome because it would let you fit a web or sensor booster. I'v lost count of the number of things that have time to warp off even when stationary when you decloak on them and cant lock quick enough (talking to you ratting-ishtar-from-last-night). This wasnt such a big problem before the agility changes, but now it seems you have to pretty much bump even battleships or they get away. not sure if another mid would make it too good, so I'd prob take a little boost in scan-res isntead. EDIT: oh, and why do people complain that the pilgrim is so different from the curse? variation is good, and if you gave it the same bonuses you would just get the same thing happening as with the other combat recons - the only reason to fly them is because they are cheaper. I'd rather see the other combat recons changed to be more unique instead. Put in space whales!
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.04 11:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Heriom Edited by: Heriom on 03/02/2009 21:05:20 Originally by: Misanth In that small gang role, the Pilgrim does perfectly fine. In my 2man recon team the Pilgrim is laying out 450dps and still performing it's task perfectly fine. If I wanted to replace that damage I would have to take hundreds of Falcons, or two-three Arazu/Rapiers with me. It's a massive difference. Max skills with a pilgrim flying 5 Hammerhead IIs and three Heavy Pulse IIs comes just under 450 dps. So no neuts? No nos? Then why even fly the pilgrim when other ships can do this much better? Not to mention it only leaves two low slots left for a tank since the other three have to have heat sinks to reach this damage. Don't get me wrong, I love the Pilgrim the way it is. I just think that to make up for it's range loss it needs some sort of boost to its tank since it is forced to fight inside web range. Since it already has all the bonuses it needs, I would love to see its bandwidth uppsed to 125 so it could use heavy drones to make up for its lack of tank or for it to have an extra bit of love added to its tank. Not another bonus. Originally by: Misanth 4x Amarr Navy Heat Sink. Just under 450dps, I was being lazy and rounded it up. So you are putting 240 mil isk in heat sinks? Isn't that kind of sill that you need to put that much isk into a recon to make it viable for you? If you put that much isk into a Zealot or Sac it would serve that purpose much better by far. Just my 2 isk 1) No, no nos and no neut. If I want to nos or neut I use the Curse. The Pilgrim is way too vulnerable to go up close and nos/neut. You use your TD and rest focus should be on damage. Pre-nano and pre-nos nerf I flew with nos, 800mm RT, 2x EANM, MAR and aux nano pumps. That only worked because nos sustained your cap. It's not possible to do today, and the trimark + 1600mm plate setups people run today works - but I'm not a fan of making a brick of something stealthy and agile. 2) I also fit factions scrambler and faction web on my Pilgrim. But as I said, I don't fly it solo, and I don't fly it in big gangs. My ship never go gates first, and I never engage things without a teammate. My job is to a) TD b) lay down damage. That's all. The Falcon/Arazu with me keep the ships unable to deal damage, while I go close enough to Scramble, Web and lay smackdown damage. Those money I put in faction mods, I save in rigs instead, because simply put - there's no reasonable rigs for the Pilgrims as it is, so mine just don't have any. Then again, I'm no fan of cookie-cutter setups, I fly ships the way they work. Pilgrim isn't a neuter, it has crap total cap, with a MWD fitted and max skills you still cap out non-stop if you try roam. It has no range bonus. It is unable to tank without being a brick. At the same time it does excellent job with some friends, and it has alot of lows that isn't needed, combined with sexy drone damage. Utilize it! 4 heat sinks, and a cap regen (or speed) mod. Guns in high, web/scrambler, mwd and td. Kickass ship, just don't fly it alone.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:00:00 - [31] Oveur was once molested by one, hence they get no loving Your cap ship deserves CPR's!
Morel Nova z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Misanth The Falcon/Arazu with me keep the ships unable to deal damage How exactly does the arazu save you from taking damage? ecm drones? lazor/gank pilgrims are cool though. Put in space whales!
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:54:00 - [33] Originally by: Morel Nova Originally by: Misanth The Falcon/Arazu with me keep the ships unable to deal damage How exactly does the arazu save you from taking damage? ecm drones? lazor/gank pilgrims are cool though. Target range scripts. Thought it was pretty obvious.
Morel Nova z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity	Posted - 2009.02.04 13:05:00 - [34] Edited by: Morel Nova on 04/02/2009 13:06:07 Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Morel Nova Originally by: Misanth The Falcon/Arazu with me keep the ships unable to deal damage How exactly does the arazu save you from taking damage? ecm drones? lazor/gank pilgrims are cool though. Target range scripts. Thought it was pretty obvious. but you said your pilgrim was going to be ganking people in scram/web range, there arent that many ships that can be dampened that close even with 3 damps and good skills. EDIT: its probably just me subconsciously flaming the arazu, which I want to be awsome with damps, but isnt...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 13:12:00 - [35] The pilgrim is one of, if not the, best solo recon in the game. Why anyone would want to buff it i do not know.
Rakalakadingdong	Posted - 2009.02.04 15:44:00 - [36] Originally by: Poppa Gringo Whether most people are aware or not, the Pilgrim and curse are the Amarr recons. The Curse is the Combat recon and the Pilgrim is the Force Recon. The difference being the Pilgrim can cloak, and the Curse cannot. Now that all the "basics" are covered. To my Point. Amarr cruiser bonuses aside, the recon bonuses for the Curse are as follows, 40% bonus to vamp and neut range, and 20% bonus to transfer amount per level. Now for the bonuses on the Pilgrim. It has the same cap transfer bonus of 20% but it doesnt have the range bonus that the curse has, that the rapier has, that the Falcon has, and that the arazu has. Why do all the other Force recons get a range bonus to their forte yet the pilgrim is left with a MAX 14km range on its neuts. Now i see a solution to this, and bare with me. All the combat recons have a damage bonus OF SOME SORT. On the pilgrim, lose the 10% bonus to drones for cruiser per level, and give the ship the range it needs. After all, the difference between all the combat recons to the force recons is the drop of the damage bonus in this case the drones. Falcons have huge range that can completely disable mulitple opponents, arazu has a very long range on its Warp disrupter and rapier for its webs. Why cant the pilgrim have its neut range? This ship is not beig used as much as it could be for this reason. Am i wrong? I have been wondering and posting about that for a long, long time and am still without any intelligent response. It makes absolutely no sense for ALL other recons of the same class to keep their range bonus.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.04 15:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Rakalakadingdong I have been wondering and posting about that for a long, long time and am still without any intelligent response. It makes absolutely no sense for ALL other recons of the same class to keep their range bonus. Clearly you haven't bothered reading the umpteen similar threads on this subject. The curse gets an amount and a range bonus (the range bonus in this case being instead of a damage bonus), the pilgrim gets an amount bonus. Mainly because if it got a range bonus it would be useless at cap warfare. Happy now?
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.02.04 16:20:00 - [38] Originally by: Goumindong The pilgrim is one of, if not the, best solo recon in the game. Why anyone would want to buff it i do not know. This. It was quite awesome pre-speed nerf now is even better (option to fit ab+TD combo). Just use lasers.
Rakalakadingdong	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:05:00 - [39] Edited by: Rakalakadingdong on 05/02/2009 22:06:01 Edited by: Rakalakadingdong on 05/02/2009 22:05:45 Originally by: Captator Clearly you haven't bothered reading the umpteen similar threads on this subject. The curse gets an amount and a range bonus (the range bonus in this case being instead of a damage bonus), the pilgrim gets an amount bonus. Mainly because if it got a range bonus it would be useless at cap warfare. Happy now? Rook: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level. Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength. Curse: Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Neut/NOS range and 20% bonus to Neut/NOS transfer amount per level. Pilgrim: Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Neut/NOS amount per level. You're still trying to tell me this is not ******ed? (lol, they are censoring r e t a r d e d.)
Arvald Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:05:00 - [40] i like my force recon that can solo turret based command ships thanks. ok but seriously, next person that derails my thread gets a railroad spike shoved through their neck
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Rakalakadingdong Rook: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level. Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength. Curse: Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Neut/NOS range and 20% bonus to Neut/NOS transfer amount per level. Pilgrim: Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Neut/NOS amount per level. You're still trying to tell me this is not ******ed? (lol, they are censoring r e t a r d e d.) They take the skills from the cruiser hull base, giving it drone damage and td effectiveness, and then it loses one of the neut related bonuses (the curse incidentally has 2 instead of a damage bonus and an ewar bonus) for a cloaking bonus. Neut range on medium neuts is singularly useless, so it has to have strength to be worth anything, similarly the curse couldn't sacrifice amount for a damage bonus, because then it would be useless - the capacitor ewar is size related, each of the other recons can use effectively battleship level ewar (although there is no size dependant damps/webs exluding officer/ecm). the recons are the most effective at their ewar, minny best webbers/painters, caldari best ecm, gallente best damps/points. Therefore an amount bonus is needed to make the amarr recons the premier cap warfare ships. If you really wanted to have a 'more logical' bonus, it would be activation and fitting cost of heavy neuts/nos, instead of range or amount on mediums, but that would involve making both ships too powerful. I am amazed this is difficult to comprehend, it's actually difficult for me to articulate because it is so obvious to me .
Depp Knight Evolution KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.07 00:32:00 - [42] If TD's had good range, then the pilgrim could be an option in fleets. Instead, its stuck at about 80km (I think is max range for TD's) whilst controller drones which suck in large engagements, with neuts that have 14km range and are not an option is large fights. Then, in solo it doesnt have the cap to retain a tank for a close combat fight, and its not an option against missile boats. In small engagements, its finally an option, where you can take a down a heavy active tank. TO many cons for the ship, just not enough pros.

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