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[Issue] Remove the alliance I WIN/I LOSE button

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SpaceSlag Gallente the undivided Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:00:00 - [1] Edited by: SpaceSlag on 05/02/2009 17:00:27 Edited by: SpaceSlag on 05/02/2009 17:00:09 Executor corps in EVE should have to make a vote (notified by evemail) to the CEO's of all the other corps in an alliance whether or not they will disband. If the alliance doesn't pay it's bills, an evemail should be sent to all CEO's telling them of the potential delinquency. Everybody should be able to see who voted and how they voted. Alliance bills receivable/payable should be viewed by all CEO's in each corp. Other issues to include on rights: -War Decs -Alliance HQ -Sovereignty -Outpost upgrades Basically, if an alliance is going to make major political changes either for within or for external reasons, it should be the concensus of the ENTIRE alliance leadership. However, limit the roles to the CEO's for a speedy process. (and not every director in the entire alliance or every political role given) Min timer on all votes: 24 hours (1 day) Max timer on all votes: 168 hours (1 week) Person does not vote, then they automatically abstain. Majority yes - action is executed. Majority no - action revoked for 24 hours. Majority abstain - action revoked for 24 hours. Become a pirate without fear of death!
Jack Light legion syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:04:00 - [2] Lol, a little disappointing at BoB's disappearance? I for one, welcome our new Goon overlords.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:41:00 - [3] I have to agree and it is NOT sour grapes about BoB on my part. No doubt they would have done the same to Goon if they had the chance. It is just a bogus game mechanic and it scares me that one person can get a bug up their ass and wipe out everyone's work with the push of a button. So many other, more mundane, things cannot be done by a single person without backup from others. This seems spectacularly powerful a thing for one person to do. DISCLOSURE: I am not nor ever have been a member of any BoB or Goon corp/alliance. I have no dog in this fight.
Random Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:49:00 - [4] Yeah EVE is broken one disgruntled player can ruin years of effort by many thousands of players at the push of a button. I guess ccp never saw this coming. Fix the interface to require votes and roll-back BOB into existence. If you dont then its gonna happen again and again to different alliances, until players realise there just no point in doing the alliance stuff if it can all be destroyed by one ass hat.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:52:00 - [5] :argh: Support denied. The entire reason we formed an alliance is to be able to avoid the stupid "Vote for wardec. Wait 24 hours. Put wardec through. Wait another 24 hours" crap.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Random Caldari Yeah EVE is broken one disgruntled player can ruin years of effort by many thousands of players at the push of a button. I guess ccp never saw this coming. Fix the interface to require votes and roll-back BOB into existence. If you dont then its gonna happen again and again to different alliances, until players realise there just no point in doing the alliance stuff if it can all be destroyed by one ass hat. alright well lets roll back maximum yarrage and every other single alliance that was stolen this way as well.. just for the sake of fairness.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Random CaldariI guess ccp never saw this coming.[/quote According to The Mittani (I think it was him who said it in his interview) this has happened before. Just nowhere near this scale. Quote: Fix the interface to require votes and roll-back BOB into existence. Well...it was done as intended under current game mechanics. A roll back would be too much I think. Just fix it for the future. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Thann Starlinbow :argh: Support denied. The entire reason we formed an alliance is to be able to avoid the stupid "Vote for wardec. Wait 24 hours. Put wardec through. Wait another 24 hours" crap. There is a big difference between making a war dec and dissolving an alliance of a few thousand people instantaneously because one disgruntled person got a bug up his ass about something or other. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Thann Starlinbow :argh: Support denied. The entire reason we formed an alliance is to be able to avoid the stupid "Vote for wardec. Wait 24 hours. Put wardec through. Wait another 24 hours" crap. There is a big difference between making a war dec and dissolving an alliance of a few thousand people instantaneously because one disgruntled person got a bug up his ass about something or other. Should treat your directors better and/or not put ultimate authority in the hands of someone you don't know if you can trust or not, maybe? Seems like sound practice to me.
SpaceSlag Gallente the undivided Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:33:00 - [10] This has no bearing on what side you are for in the massive threadnaught called, "B0B is fail." I really don't care about the politics or the bribery, or whatever excuse somebody wants to give. This thread has ONLY to do with mechanics of the game. No one person in the alliance, whether or not it's the founder of the Alliance, the CEO of the executor corp, or some random director in the alliance should EVER have that much power to completely erase 4 years of thousands of player's hard work in one fail swoop that takes 30 seconds. Whether you agree/disagree with the current events, I don't care. Please vote if you agree on some of the things mentioned here. If not, please be constructive and state why. Ok... so I could concede the Wardec thing. Become a pirate without fear of death!

Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:45:00 - [11] Going to point out that 'Majority abstain = no' is also terrible due to the fact that sometimes things need to get done 'now'. Well, what if a couple of your CEO's are on vacation and suddenly you can't do anything because they 'abstain'? You need to think this through some more.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:53:00 - [12] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 05/02/2009 22:54:18 Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Going to point out that 'Majority abstain = no' is also terrible due to the fact that sometimes things need to get done 'now'. Well, what if a couple of your CEO's are on vacation and suddenly you can't do anything because they 'abstain'? You need to think this through some more. I am not sure a specific mechanic need be decided here. Just that CCP should put some tripwire in place. Maybe have a 24 hour period where nothing happens once the "dissolve alliance" button is pushed and another Director or CEO can un-push the button. Have an automated e-mail sent to all members that says "Alliance will be dissolved in 24 hours from the time of this note." Waiting 24 hours for an alliance to dissolve is not that onerus. I'm sure people could put forth lots of mechanics. Point is to have some ability to stop one person who got his panties all in a wad over something or other from being a "You Lose" button for a few thousand people.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Going to point out that 'Majority abstain = no' is also terrible due to the fact that sometimes things need to get done 'now'. Well, what if a couple of your CEO's are on vacation and suddenly you can't do anything because they 'abstain'? You need to think this through some more. I am not sure a specific mechanic need be decided here. Just that CCP should put some tripwire in place. Maybe have a 24 hour period where nothing happens once the "dissolve alliance" button is pushed and another Director or CEO can un-push the button. Have an automated e-mail sent to all members that says "Alliance will be dissolved in 24 hours from the time of this note." Waiting 24 hours for an alliance to dissolve is not that onerus. Why? They havn't done anything about it happening in the past, why is it special now? BOB are not special, sorry.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:58:00 - [14] The misunderstood thing here is there is no "dissolve alliance" option... all the corps need to be kicked out or leave on their own accord. Yes executor corps can kick out member corps with no regard, which is how it should be, the same way a ceo can kick out a member without needing to vote on it either. Additionally, all ceos/directors in alliance "can" pay alliance bills, they just don't have access to the alliance wallet and have to do it from their own. Heads of the alliance are there for a reason, they arent there to get everyones vote, they're there to provide the decision making process for the alliance as a whole, usually thats why theres one holding corp for alts so everyone can keep up to speed.. this voting process is removing power from those who it was willfully given to in the first place.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Why? They havn't done anything about it happening in the past, why is it special now? BOB are not special, sorry. It is special because of the scale of the thing. This affects all of EVE when the Alliance was on this scale. Of course for those of us on the sidelines it is all fascinating to watch and even an opportunity. But ONE guy should not be able to wield power on this scale. There is supposed to be balance in games and this is not a balanced mechanic. It really makes no freaking sense. It'd be like the President of the United States hands over a substantial portion of US military equipment to the Russians, turns off all the nukes and radar defenses, dissolves the United States entirely then goes to bed. Just absurd.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Why? They havn't done anything about it happening in the past, why is it special now? BOB are not special, sorry. It is special because of the scale of the thing. This affects all of EVE when the Alliance was on this scale. Of course for those of us on the sidelines it is all fascinating to watch and even an opportunity. But ONE guy should not be able to wield power on this scale. There is supposed to be balance in games and this is not a balanced mechanic. It really makes no freaking sense. It'd be like the President of the United States hands over a substantial portion of US military equipment to the Russians, turns off all the nukes and radar defenses, dissolves the United States entirely then goes to bed. Just absurd. Real life analogies don't apply to this situation well. Read the post above yours. I'd post more but work is over and I'm going home now. Ciao.
Arri Gato	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:04:00 - [17] sure, fail mechanic needs correction...
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Real life analogies don't apply to this situation well. Read the post above yours. It does not make sense in a game either. I understand what the guy above me is saying and it makes sense. Nevertheless allowing a single person that kind of power is silly. It's called game balance. The issue here is irrevocable and profound changes to all these people. Not just kicking one corp here or there. If the executor corp holds that much power fine with me. But then the Directors should come to some accord or have a veto option or somesuch so no one person can undo everything. I strongly suspect if it happened to you then you would not be so keen on this mechanic. No one is calling for a roll back (except that one guy). Just plug this glaring hole in the mechanics.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Real life analogies don't apply to this situation well. Read the post above yours. It does not make sense in a game either. I understand what the guy above me is saying and it makes sense. Nevertheless allowing a single person that kind of power is silly. It's called game balance. The issue here is irrevocable and profound changes to all these people. Not just kicking one corp here or there. If the executor corp holds that much power fine with me. But then the Directors should come to some accord or have a veto option or somesuch so no one person can undo everything. I strongly suspect if it happened to you then you would not be so keen on this mechanic. No one is calling for a roll back (except that one guy). Just plug this glaring hole in the mechanics. Actually, I've had an alliance stolen out from underneath me before. I said "Welp." and wardec'd them, shot them for a while and then moved along. Like I said, this isn't special just because it's BOB or just because it's big. It has happened before, it will happen again.
Theqwert125	Posted - 2009.02.06 01:08:00 - [20] I think it should take more than one person in a high role to completely screw over years of work of over 3000 people. Corptheft and so on is FINE IMO, the problem is that such a major decision as DISBANDING an alliance and permenately losing sov takes only one guy deciding to screw everyone over. BOB is dead. Fine, whatever. But fix this so that it can't happen again. Can you imagine the Goon whines if one of their leaders decided, "**** it, I am disbanding Goonsawrm, Neener neener"? This is only being hailed because everyone hated BOB and it was done with a spy.

Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 01:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Theqwert125 I think it should take more than one person in a high role to completely screw over years of work of over 3000 people. Corptheft and so on is FINE IMO, the problem is that such a major decision as DISBANDING an alliance and permenately losing sov takes only one guy deciding to screw everyone over. BOB is dead. Fine, whatever. But fix this so that it can't happen again. Can you imagine the Goon whines if one of their leaders decided, "**** it, I am disbanding Goonsawrm, Neener neener"? This is only being hailed because everyone hated BOB and it was done with a spy. uh goon wouldnt care... they'd just shoot each other like they're want to do anyways. Nothing wrong with this mechanic.. a single controlling CEO of a real corporation can drive it into the ground just as easily.. Corporations in and of themselves can maintain around 1300 people depending on the ceo's skills.. should the ceo have to get co-approval from his directors before booting people willy nilly? i think not.
Agent Unknown Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.02.06 01:33:00 - [22] In most cases this button would usually be the "I WIN YOU LOSE" button...or better yet potential for blackmail. /signed
Ashley Thomas Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 02:14:00 - [23] the reason bob disbanded, ceo was stupid enough to let it happen
Jack Light legion syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.06 02:47:00 - [24] Edited by: Jack Light on 06/02/2009 02:47:02 Originally by: Ashley Thomas the reason bob disbanded, ceo was stupid enough to let it happen This Alliances are fine how it is. Adds to the risk. Part of the game.
SpaceSlag Gallente the undivided Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.02.06 05:07:00 - [25] The whole purpose of this thread is for people to discuss falty alliance/corp game mechanics and hopefully respond with suggestive ideas of their own. The majority of the posts on this thread are constructive. -Great! However, if you're going to state why not, then please post your reasons. Hopefully CCP can sort out the logical from the illogical by the time their grand expansion comes out in March. For corps to leave an alliance, they should be able to whenever they please. However, if a corp is being kicked, then a majority vote should be cast. I think this would be the so called "tripwire." The only deviance that should be accepted is to ask yourself the question, "What if this thing with B0B happened to my alliance? How hard would I be screwed?" I know my original proposition needs some more hamsters spinning the wheel of thought, but hopefully more can contribute and this formulate into something definitive for CCP to implement or thoroughly hashed out so that game corp/alliance mechanics remain the same. Become a pirate without fear of death!
shuckstar Hauling hogs	Posted - 2009.02.06 05:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Arri Gato sure, fail mechanic needs correction...
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.06 06:03:00 - [27] To those who think the current mechanic is fine as is: Why do you think it is fine as is? What in your world of fair play suggests to you that a single person can undo an alliance instantly? How does that make sense to you on any level? No "BoB had it coming" stuff...this is not about that. It could happen to you just as easily. Why would you be ok with that? How are you comfortable knowing that some few in your alliance with appropriate roles can pull the plug on all you and hundreds or thousands of others have done and worked for overnight? Espionage is fine. Corp theft is fine. But one person, for whatever reason (and there could be many), flipping 3,000 people in minutes is hardly good game design. I am just not seeing it so please explain how this is a good game mechanic. How if you were designing a game you'd make sure such a mechanic existed because it made the game better somehow. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 06:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h To those who think the current mechanic is fine as is: Why do you think it is fine as is? What in your world of fair play suggests to you that a single person can undo an alliance instantly? How does that make sense to you on any level? No "BoB had it coming" stuff...this is not about that. It could happen to you just as easily. Why would you be ok with that? How are you comfortable knowing that some few in your alliance with appropriate roles can pull the plug on all you and hundreds or thousands of others have done and worked for overnight? Espionage is fine. Corp theft is fine. But one person, for whatever reason (and there could be many), flipping 3,000 people in minutes is hardly good game design. I am just not seeing it so please explain how this is a good game mechanic. How if you were designing a game you'd make sure such a mechanic existed because it made the game better somehow. A CEO with a corp of 1300 could do exactly the same thing... an alliance is structured exactly like a corporation just a tier above it. As for one man destroying an entire alliance from the inside and how its fair? it isnt... and thats the point, its not fair, its not supposed to be fair, if you want fair play hello kitty online. I dont remember at any point in time where CCP said this game was fair. If this game was fair, it wouldn't be fun. This is far from the worst thing ever pulled, sure it was massive.. but definitely not the worst thats ever been done in the history of eve. If it happened to my alliance.. then thats life or should i say, thats how the game is... you accepted that that is how the game is when you agreed to the EULA and paid your monthly fee, and if it happens to you, you either strive on, or you emoragequit to the tune of "Can i have your stuff".
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.06 06:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/02/2009 06:29:05 Originally by: Nnamuachs A CEO with a corp of 1300 could do exactly the same thing... an alliance is structured exactly like a corporation just a tier above it. As for one man destroying an entire alliance from the inside and how its fair? it isnt... and thats the point, its not fair, its not supposed to be fair, if you want fair play hello kitty online. I dont remember at any point in time where CCP said this game was fair. If this game was fair, it wouldn't be fun. This is far from the worst thing ever pulled, sure it was massive.. but definitely not the worst thats ever been done in the history of eve. If it happened to my alliance.. then thats life or should i say, thats how the game is... you accepted that that is how the game is when you agreed to the EULA and paid your monthly fee, and if it happens to you, you either strive on, or you emoragequit to the tune of "Can i have your stuff". No need for a lecture on EVE being a rough-and-tumble place. One of the reasons I play it too and I am cool with that. As for me being "emoragequit" please point out where I said or implied any such thing. If not then stuff that crap. I am not nor have ever been, on any character I run, a member of BoB or Goon. I noted above I have no personal stake in this one way or the other. I have lost literally nothing over this. If a Dev wants to come by and tell you I have never been in BoB or Goon ever they have my blessing. I am arguing purely from a sense that this is a bogus mechanic. You have not made a case for it being a good mechanic at all. Saying EVE is a tough place is not an argument for it. Maybe someone is playing football and pulls out a gun and shoots the other team to death. Saying football is a rough game does not make that ok. I am all for the dark side of EVE. But there has to be balance in games and that much unchecked power in the hands of a single person is too much. It makes the game not fun for ALL of EVE since we now all have to wonder if it might happen to any of us on the whim of one person. And note this is more than your case of being a CEO of a big corp. The Alliance holds sovereignty and along with that comes a whole raft of other stuff. Further...an Alliance is a group of corps. It is one thing for you to screw over your own people. It is another for you to take other corps down with you on a whim. Want to take other corps down fine. Great even...have at it. But you should have to work for it and not make it a matter of 10 minutes of work. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 06:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/02/2009 06:29:05 Originally by: Nnamuachs A CEO with a corp of 1300 could do exactly the same thing... an alliance is structured exactly like a corporation just a tier above it. As for one man destroying an entire alliance from the inside and how its fair? it isnt... and thats the point, its not fair, its not supposed to be fair, if you want fair play hello kitty online. I dont remember at any point in time where CCP said this game was fair. If this game was fair, it wouldn't be fun. This is far from the worst thing ever pulled, sure it was massive.. but definitely not the worst thats ever been done in the history of eve. If it happened to my alliance.. then thats life or should i say, thats how the game is... you accepted that that is how the game is when you agreed to the EULA and paid your monthly fee, and if it happens to you, you either strive on, or you emoragequit to the tune of "Can i have your stuff". No need for a lecture on EVE being a rough-and-tumble place. One of the reasons I play it too and I am cool with that. As for me being "emoragequit" please point out where I said or implied any such thing. If not then stuff that crap. I am not nor have ever been, on any character I run, a member of BoB or Goon. I noted above I have no personal stake in this one way or the other. I have lost literally nothing over this. If a Dev wants to come by and tell you I have never been in BoB or Goon ever they have my blessing. I am arguing purely from a sense that this is a bogus mechanic. You have not made a case for it being a good mechanic at all. Saying EVE is a tough place is not an argument for it. Maybe someone is playing football and pulls out a gun and shoots the other team to death. Saying football is a rough game does not make that ok. I am all for the dark side of EVE. But there has to be balance in games and that much unchecked power in the hands of a single person is too much. It makes the game not fun for ALL of EVE since we now all have to wonder if it might happen to any of us on the whim of one person. And note this is more than your case of being a CEO of a big corp. The Alliance holds sovereignty and along with that comes a whole raft of other stuff. Further...an Alliance is a group of corps. It is one thing for you to screw over your own people. It is another for you to take other corps down with you on a whim. Want to take other corps down fine. Great even...have at it. But you should have to work for it and not make it a matter of 10 minutes of work. I didnt say you were emoragequitting, just said those are the two options. If i havent given a reason for why its a good mechanic, in that same stance you havent given a reason for why its a bad mechanic... And if you consider what you listed as reasons for a bad mechanic then those in the same breath can be used as reasons for why its a good mechanic. One man with the power to screw over alot of people... puts alot of stuff in perspective doesnt it? As for your comment on the whim of one person... that really is what eve boils down to.. i could be suicide ganked on the whim of another player... wardecced, decieved, scammed etc.. all at the whim of one person... it doesnt change as you go up or down the ladder... 1 person always has the power to destroy the many in one form or another.. its a mechanic of persistence, applicable to many situations, not just one. I think its a bit exciting to know that someone could go ballistic in my alliance and screw everyone over... thats why i keep my stuff in NPC stations



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