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Tarm
   |
Posted - 2004.08.03 16:50:00 -
[1]
Let's say, hypothetically, that I trained Amarr Cruiser to level 5 in anticipation of the new cruisers coming out with Shiva. I have read many posts regarding the new cruisers and their skill requirements and have come to the conclusion that they will most likely (guess) be a separate type of ship set between current cruisers and battleships (the pictures display a new type of ship model, not based on current models like interceptors).
Most likely, these new ships will have a bonus based on the level of the corresponding skill, e.g. battlecruiser or destroyer. The bonus will NOT be based on the regular cruiser skill. So, not only are the requirements for the new ships not as high as say, interceptors (requiring lvl 5 of a ship skill), they also require a new skill not even released yet to gain the bonus from (which will most likely not have a high skill requirement to learn if they are "tech 1" ships).
SO....
-There are not any new ships that require a "specialization" of sorts, just another step up to battleship.
-Because of the lax skill requirements, there will be many of these new ships out almost immediately, effectively killing any source of "achievement" for those who are flying them.
-My "hypothetical" skill training that I did with Amarr Cruiser lvl 5 is essentially wasted as the new Amarr cruiser bonuses are extrememly poor compared to the other race's (my opinion as only one is useful: Maller, but that's another subject altogether) AND the new battlecruiser/destroyer variants will render them obsolete anyway.
In conclusion:
Current cruisers, at Shiva release, will become a tool for new players and ship collectors. Their fleet usefulness (as small as that currently is) as well as the cruiser skill itself will become useless. The reward for training cruiser level 5 will be non-existant until tech 2 cruisers come out (2007?), at which time it will be decided that battlecruisers and destroyers can do a better job at whatever role than the new tech 2s anyway.
The only solution I can see against rendering cruisers obsolete with the release of the new ships would be to set the skill requirements on the new ones to cruiser level 5. This most likely will make many people upset that do not have level 5, and will make many people happy that DO have it. If the roles of these ships are to be specialized in fleet combat, wouldn't it make sense to require skill specialization?
Moved from Skills forum at authors request - Wrangler
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Tarm
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 16:50:00 -
[2]
Let's say, hypothetically, that I trained Amarr Cruiser to level 5 in anticipation of the new cruisers coming out with Shiva. I have read many posts regarding the new cruisers and their skill requirements and have come to the conclusion that they will most likely (guess) be a separate type of ship set between current cruisers and battleships (the pictures display a new type of ship model, not based on current models like interceptors).
Most likely, these new ships will have a bonus based on the level of the corresponding skill, e.g. battlecruiser or destroyer. The bonus will NOT be based on the regular cruiser skill. So, not only are the requirements for the new ships not as high as say, interceptors (requiring lvl 5 of a ship skill), they also require a new skill not even released yet to gain the bonus from (which will most likely not have a high skill requirement to learn if they are "tech 1" ships).
SO....
-There are not any new ships that require a "specialization" of sorts, just another step up to battleship.
-Because of the lax skill requirements, there will be many of these new ships out almost immediately, effectively killing any source of "achievement" for those who are flying them.
-My "hypothetical" skill training that I did with Amarr Cruiser lvl 5 is essentially wasted as the new Amarr cruiser bonuses are extrememly poor compared to the other race's (my opinion as only one is useful: Maller, but that's another subject altogether) AND the new battlecruiser/destroyer variants will render them obsolete anyway.
In conclusion:
Current cruisers, at Shiva release, will become a tool for new players and ship collectors. Their fleet usefulness (as small as that currently is) as well as the cruiser skill itself will become useless. The reward for training cruiser level 5 will be non-existant until tech 2 cruisers come out (2007?), at which time it will be decided that battlecruisers and destroyers can do a better job at whatever role than the new tech 2s anyway.
The only solution I can see against rendering cruisers obsolete with the release of the new ships would be to set the skill requirements on the new ones to cruiser level 5. This most likely will make many people upset that do not have level 5, and will make many people happy that DO have it. If the roles of these ships are to be specialized in fleet combat, wouldn't it make sense to require skill specialization?
Moved from Skills forum at authors request - Wrangler
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.08.03 17:09:00 -
[3]
maybe for amarr but man i like the idea of caldari cruiser 5 and moa/caracal use.
caracal...... extra 5% to rate of fire bonus and extra 5% to kinetic damage. i'd say that ones worth it times 5 arbelast launchers going to be more than 25% extra damage in same time frame times all 5 launchers.
moa......the range bonus alone. with cruiser 5 it will be a sniper machine being able to sling iron charges with named 250's and hit at 100km with a targeting range mod equiped........basic sensor booster covers that. I can hit at 90km and under now with compressed coil 250's plus you can use antimater at lvl 5 cruiser for everything under 50km......
1vs1 cruisers will be hard pressed to combat that in any way if they stay put.
most cruiser mediums have to use a weaker ammo type to get range but with the range bonus on moa, it can use it's deadliest ammo type with a good bit of range to it and never have to change for your typical cruiser battling.
I do not think any other cruiser can hit at 80/90km with their guns but may be wrong.
Agreed that amarr cruiser 5 may not have much worth but caldari does
think what one could do with 100km warp in and set waypoints in a guarded system.......i think it'd be fun to lock some poor unsuspecting miners harvies at 90km cuz he thinks they are safe at that range. someone could cost someone some doe if they just started shooting their harvies at that range for practice
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.08.03 17:09:00 -
[4]
maybe for amarr but man i like the idea of caldari cruiser 5 and moa/caracal use.
caracal...... extra 5% to rate of fire bonus and extra 5% to kinetic damage. i'd say that ones worth it times 5 arbelast launchers going to be more than 25% extra damage in same time frame times all 5 launchers.
moa......the range bonus alone. with cruiser 5 it will be a sniper machine being able to sling iron charges with named 250's and hit at 100km with a targeting range mod equiped........basic sensor booster covers that. I can hit at 90km and under now with compressed coil 250's plus you can use antimater at lvl 5 cruiser for everything under 50km......
1vs1 cruisers will be hard pressed to combat that in any way if they stay put.
most cruiser mediums have to use a weaker ammo type to get range but with the range bonus on moa, it can use it's deadliest ammo type with a good bit of range to it and never have to change for your typical cruiser battling.
I do not think any other cruiser can hit at 80/90km with their guns but may be wrong.
Agreed that amarr cruiser 5 may not have much worth but caldari does
think what one could do with 100km warp in and set waypoints in a guarded system.......i think it'd be fun to lock some poor unsuspecting miners harvies at 90km cuz he thinks they are safe at that range. someone could cost someone some doe if they just started shooting their harvies at that range for practice
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.08.03 17:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tarm on 03/08/2004 17:28:24
 Originally by: X'Alor
maybe for amarr but man i like the idea of caldari cruiser 5 and moa/caracal use.
caracal...... extra 5% to rate of fire bonus and extra 5% to kinetic damage. i'd say that ones worth it times 5 arbelast launchers going to be more than 25% extra damage in same time frame times all 5 launchers.
moa......the range bonus alone. with cruiser 5 it will be a sniper machine being able to sling iron charges with named 250's and hit at 100km with a targeting range mod equiped........basic sensor booster covers that. I can hit at 90km and under now with compressed coil 250's plus you can use antimater at lvl 5 cruiser for everything under 50km......
1vs1 cruisers will be hard pressed to combat that in any way if they stay put.
most cruiser mediums have to use a weaker ammo type to get range but with the range bonus on moa, it can use it's deadliest ammo type with a good bit of range to it and never have to change for your typical cruiser battling.
I do not think any other cruiser can hit at 80/90km with their guns but may be wrong.
Agreed that amarr cruiser 5 may not have much worth but caldari does
think what one could do with 100km warp in and set waypoints in a guarded system.......i think it'd be fun to lock some poor unsuspecting miners harvies at 90km cuz he thinks they are safe at that range. someone could cost someone some doe if they just started shooting their harvies at that range for practice
Those points make sense, however.....
If someone has had enough time in the game to progress to cruiser level 5, most likely he/she has enough ISK to progress to a battlecruiser or destroyer. If either of those vessels achieves what you just described with better results (most likely the case), you would be hard pressed to find someone using a cruiser at level 5 instead of one of the newer ships.
Tech 2 ships are advanced specialized replicas of their previous models. They perform a specified role in combat. These new battlecruisers/destroyers are going to fill a specific gap in fleet combat, not provide another generic combat platform. Why would you create a ship that is specialized and not require skills to match? Generic skills = generic ship, as is currently shown. I find it hard to believe these new ships will be as generic as current battleship/cruiser/frigate setups (small variety, but largely generic).
Edit: Typo
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.08.03 17:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tarm on 03/08/2004 17:28:24
Originally by: X'Alor
maybe for amarr but man i like the idea of caldari cruiser 5 and moa/caracal use.
caracal...... extra 5% to rate of fire bonus and extra 5% to kinetic damage. i'd say that ones worth it times 5 arbelast launchers going to be more than 25% extra damage in same time frame times all 5 launchers.
moa......the range bonus alone. with cruiser 5 it will be a sniper machine being able to sling iron charges with named 250's and hit at 100km with a targeting range mod equiped........basic sensor booster covers that. I can hit at 90km and under now with compressed coil 250's plus you can use antimater at lvl 5 cruiser for everything under 50km......
1vs1 cruisers will be hard pressed to combat that in any way if they stay put.
most cruiser mediums have to use a weaker ammo type to get range but with the range bonus on moa, it can use it's deadliest ammo type with a good bit of range to it and never have to change for your typical cruiser battling.
I do not think any other cruiser can hit at 80/90km with their guns but may be wrong.
Agreed that amarr cruiser 5 may not have much worth but caldari does
think what one could do with 100km warp in and set waypoints in a guarded system.......i think it'd be fun to lock some poor unsuspecting miners harvies at 90km cuz he thinks they are safe at that range. someone could cost someone some doe if they just started shooting their harvies at that range for practice
Those points make sense, however.....
If someone has had enough time in the game to progress to cruiser level 5, most likely he/she has enough ISK to progress to a battlecruiser or destroyer. If either of those vessels achieves what you just described with better results (most likely the case), you would be hard pressed to find someone using a cruiser at level 5 instead of one of the newer ships.
Tech 2 ships are advanced specialized replicas of their previous models. They perform a specified role in combat. These new battlecruisers/destroyers are going to fill a specific gap in fleet combat, not provide another generic combat platform. Why would you create a ship that is specialized and not require skills to match? Generic skills = generic ship, as is currently shown. I find it hard to believe these new ships will be as generic as current battleship/cruiser/frigate setups (small variety, but largely generic).
Edit: Typo
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Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2004.08.03 19:00:00 -
[7]
It would be stupid for it to take longer skill training time to pilot a battlecruiser than it does to pilot a battleship. It just doesnt make sense.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Kalki Nibiru
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 19:00:00 -
[8]
It would be stupid for it to take longer skill training time to pilot a battlecruiser than it does to pilot a battleship. It just doesnt make sense.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Tarm
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 19:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tarm on 03/08/2004 19:10:46
Originally by: Kalki Nibiru
It would be stupid for it to take longer skill training time to pilot a battlecruiser than it does to pilot a battleship. It just doesnt make sense.
Well, technically you could say the same thing about interceptors. The reason you would train for the new cruisers or interceptors is that they play a specific role, namely they fill a niche between frigs and battleships. I view the battlecruiser as a support vessel for larger battleships and a destroyer as a point-defense support vessel for the fleet. These things cannot be validated until the ships actually come out, but they make sense.
You wouldn't train battlecruisers before you train battleships (if cruiser level 5 was required) if you can't afford a battleship, you would train them to become a specialized combat pilot able to do things with your new ship (ew, shield/cap transfer, some new support module) that noone else can do as well in a normal battleship, cruiser, or frigate.
Just like the interceptor is to the regular frigate. You don't train interceptors because they're cheaper to fly, you train them to be fast as hell.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.08.03 19:08:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tarm on 03/08/2004 19:10:46
Originally by: Kalki Nibiru
It would be stupid for it to take longer skill training time to pilot a battlecruiser than it does to pilot a battleship. It just doesnt make sense.
Well, technically you could say the same thing about interceptors. The reason you would train for the new cruisers or interceptors is that they play a specific role, namely they fill a niche between frigs and battleships. I view the battlecruiser as a support vessel for larger battleships and a destroyer as a point-defense support vessel for the fleet. These things cannot be validated until the ships actually come out, but they make sense.
You wouldn't train battlecruisers before you train battleships (if cruiser level 5 was required) if you can't afford a battleship, you would train them to become a specialized combat pilot able to do things with your new ship (ew, shield/cap transfer, some new support module) that noone else can do as well in a normal battleship, cruiser, or frigate.
Just like the interceptor is to the regular frigate. You don't train interceptors because they're cheaper to fly, you train them to be fast as hell.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.08.03 19:24:00 -
[11]
from my understanding
destroyers = frigate class hunters/escort ships. supposedly going to be small weapon equipped to combat but be able to equip more small guns than a frigate and be a bit better HP and powered.
battle cruisers = pocket battle ships
not as many high slots as BS but still being able to fit large weapons. with a bit less ship HP and energy than a BS. most likely sacrificing/gaining some speed for that compared to a cruiser or BS
I guess it's up to what you want to do with specific ships and/or if that need fits the desired training time to make it do what ya want.
I am still planning on doing Caldari cruiser 5 for the above stated reasons the caracal will be one fun bad cruiser. yes just a cruiser, i know
kinetics doing close to 200 damage and that is with heavy 3 and cruiser 4. what happens with heavy 5 and cruiser 5.......that like 250 damage for kinetics. Not adding in any resistances but with 5 xr heavy launchers with one full load of missles is a total of 40000 hitpoints of possible damage before reloading and it will do that in about 6 minutes provided you can sustain it that long.
not saying it rules but just pointing out the possibility of it. for me and caldari i say it's worth it. but solely MO
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.08.03 19:24:00 -
[12]
from my understanding
destroyers = frigate class hunters/escort ships. supposedly going to be small weapon equipped to combat but be able to equip more small guns than a frigate and be a bit better HP and powered.
battle cruisers = pocket battle ships
not as many high slots as BS but still being able to fit large weapons. with a bit less ship HP and energy than a BS. most likely sacrificing/gaining some speed for that compared to a cruiser or BS
I guess it's up to what you want to do with specific ships and/or if that need fits the desired training time to make it do what ya want.
I am still planning on doing Caldari cruiser 5 for the above stated reasons the caracal will be one fun bad cruiser. yes just a cruiser, i know
kinetics doing close to 200 damage and that is with heavy 3 and cruiser 4. what happens with heavy 5 and cruiser 5.......that like 250 damage for kinetics. Not adding in any resistances but with 5 xr heavy launchers with one full load of missles is a total of 40000 hitpoints of possible damage before reloading and it will do that in about 6 minutes provided you can sustain it that long.
not saying it rules but just pointing out the possibility of it. for me and caldari i say it's worth it. but solely MO
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.08.03 19:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 03/08/2004 19:51:50
According to recent dev blogs and CSM logs, destroyers and battlecruisers are completely new ship classes, with new models. As of this moment, the skill requirements are unknown, but I doubt that Cruiser 5 will be required (I've made my thoughts clear on what I think the exact requirements will be on another thread).
Also to be released in the future are elite cruisers, and these will be to cruisers what interceptors, bombers etc are to frigates. These will include support cruisers (based on the level 1 hulls) and point defence cruisers (based on level 2 hulls). I expect that these will require Cruiser 5 as a pre-requisite. Support cruisers are expected soon (possibly even pre-Shiva).
So in summary, Cruiser 5 may well be worth training if you want to fly around in an upgraded Augoror with shield transferring abilities.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 19:45:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 03/08/2004 19:51:50
According to recent dev blogs and CSM logs, destroyers and battlecruisers are completely new ship classes, with new models. As of this moment, the skill requirements are unknown, but I doubt that Cruiser 5 will be required (I've made my thoughts clear on what I think the exact requirements will be on another thread).
Also to be released in the future are elite cruisers, and these will be to cruisers what interceptors, bombers etc are to frigates. These will include support cruisers (based on the level 1 hulls) and point defence cruisers (based on level 2 hulls). I expect that these will require Cruiser 5 as a pre-requisite. Support cruisers are expected soon (possibly even pre-Shiva).
So in summary, Cruiser 5 may well be worth training if you want to fly around in an upgraded Augoror with shield transferring abilities.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
deathbyfire
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Posted - 2004.08.03 20:54:00 -
[15]
you know my gallente cruiser lvl 5 goes very nicly with my med hybrid lvl 5, sergical strike lvl 5, rapid firing lvl 5, controld bursts lvl 5, and motion prodiction lvl 5, adn my 9.4 damage mod on my modal neutron is very nice aswell.
-------------------------------
Evolve and adapt or die.
The choice is yours to make and no one elses.
"Your current safe bounries were once unsafe frontiers"-unknown
"Stupid people, can't live with them, and can't kill them because there would only be 1000 people left to play eve."-Me :D |
deathbyfire
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 20:54:00 -
[16]
you know my gallente cruiser lvl 5 goes very nicly with my med hybrid lvl 5, sergical strike lvl 5, rapid firing lvl 5, controld bursts lvl 5, and motion prodiction lvl 5, adn my 9.4 damage mod on my modal neutron is very nice aswell.
-------------------------------
Evolve and adapt or die.
The choice is yours to make and no one elses.
"Your current safe bounries were once unsafe frontiers"-unknown
"Stupid people, can't live with them, and can't kill them because there would only be 1000 people left to play eve."-Me :D |
boogaboob
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:02:00 -
[17]
I think i have read on eve-i.com that destroyers will require interceptors lvl 3 and battlecruisers will require escorts lvl 3. Of course i could be mistaken.
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boogaboob
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:02:00 -
[18]
I think i have read on eve-i.com that destroyers will require interceptors lvl 3 and battlecruisers will require escorts lvl 3. Of course i could be mistaken.
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: deathbyfire
you know my gallente cruiser lvl 5 goes very nicly with my med hybrid lvl 5, sergical strike lvl 5, rapid firing lvl 5, controld bursts lvl 5, and motion prodiction lvl 5, adn my 9.4 damage mod on my modal neutron is very nice aswell.
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: deathbyfire
you know my gallente cruiser lvl 5 goes very nicly with my med hybrid lvl 5, sergical strike lvl 5, rapid firing lvl 5, controld bursts lvl 5, and motion prodiction lvl 5, adn my 9.4 damage mod on my modal neutron is very nice aswell.
................. |
Tarm
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 21:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: boogaboob
I think i have read on eve-i.com that destroyers will require interceptors lvl 3 and battlecruisers will require escorts lvl 3. Of course i could be mistaken.
Yes, I've seen that also, but I tend to think it's more of a placeholder stat than a real one. If it is the truth, not only will interceptor pilots have the advantage of interceptors, but also have a significant edge on skill-training for the new cruisers.
Plus, interceptor skills for a destroyer doesn't make too much sense, but that's just me.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: boogaboob
I think i have read on eve-i.com that destroyers will require interceptors lvl 3 and battlecruisers will require escorts lvl 3. Of course i could be mistaken.
Yes, I've seen that also, but I tend to think it's more of a placeholder stat than a real one. If it is the truth, not only will interceptor pilots have the advantage of interceptors, but also have a significant edge on skill-training for the new cruisers.
Plus, interceptor skills for a destroyer doesn't make too much sense, but that's just me.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:20:00 -
[23]
Speculative skill training is *almost* always a mistake. I still remember a ton of people training the fairly nasty skill set to deep core mine, weeks before it came in with Castor. Then they discovered the was almost no market for the finished product.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:20:00 -
[24]
Speculative skill training is *almost* always a mistake. I still remember a ton of people training the fairly nasty skill set to deep core mine, weeks before it came in with Castor. Then they discovered the was almost no market for the finished product.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Nybbas
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:22:00 -
[25]
so what death, you crammed like 5 tech 2 mods in your lows also then? rofl...
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Nybbas
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Posted - 2004.08.03 21:22:00 -
[26]
so what death, you crammed like 5 tech 2 mods in your lows also then? rofl...
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deathbyfire
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Posted - 2004.08.03 23:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nybbas
so what death, you crammed like 5 tech 2 mods in your lows also then? rofl...
accualy it is a workign setup with only 2 mag stab 2s they have a 7.8 or 8. somethign without the stabs i rarly don't have stabs on my rax so i am not sure
-------------------------------
Evolve and adapt or die.
The choice is yours to make and no one elses.
"Your current safe bounries were once unsafe frontiers"-unknown
"Stupid people, can't live with them, and can't kill them because there would only be 1000 people left to play eve."-Me :D |
deathbyfire
|
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nybbas
so what death, you crammed like 5 tech 2 mods in your lows also then? rofl...
accualy it is a workign setup with only 2 mag stab 2s they have a 7.8 or 8. somethign without the stabs i rarly don't have stabs on my rax so i am not sure
-------------------------------
Evolve and adapt or die.
The choice is yours to make and no one elses.
"Your current safe bounries were once unsafe frontiers"-unknown
"Stupid people, can't live with them, and can't kill them because there would only be 1000 people left to play eve."-Me :D |
Baun
|
Posted - 2004.08.04 00:38:00 -
[29]
One HAS to assume that cruiser lvl5 will be required. If this is not the case then everyone will be able to fly these new ships (as everyone can fly a ceptor now) and I sincerely doubt that CCP would like that.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.08.04 00:38:00 -
[30]
One HAS to assume that cruiser lvl5 will be required. If this is not the case then everyone will be able to fly these new ships (as everyone can fly a ceptor now) and I sincerely doubt that CCP would like that.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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