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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Fumen	Posted - 2009.02.07 07:30:00 - [1] Greetings. Just a few questions about how the new client is going to be deployed and patched for anyone currently running on classic graphics. 1. Any word yet of how this will be deployed? Is it still being decided? If I will need to reinstall a new client, can we get access to the client a few days in advance. 2. Can I just download and install the premium client now, install it, and then patch for test server without any issues? Will there be installation issues if I don't meet the client's minimum requirements (as there is with some programs)? I was hoping that I would have these questions answered before or with the announcement to deploy the Apocrypha patch to Singularity. I may be jumping the gun here and it will be in the patch notes when the new singularity patch is released. (Hint, hint if you haven't thought of that yet.)
Amerilia	Posted - 2009.02.07 09:36:00 - [2] You can install the premium client, it does not check for the minimum requirements. If your PC is incapable of premium graphics, the client reverts to classic. Should be similar with premium lite.
Fumen	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:27:00 - [3] Thanks for the info! I'll give it a try and see how things go. If things don't work as planned, I'll follow up with the usual posts and petitions.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:26:00 - [4] This is a rough outline of how we are currently planning to patch to Apocrypha. These notes apply to how we are planning to update Tranquility but I'll add Singularity specifics below. Windows: The client will download a 725 kB downloader application. Each client version will download a different downloader (customised) that then downloads different data to install or patch. The downloader uses BITS to complete the download. If BITS is disabled then players can download patches and installs manually. Those files will be self-extracting archives that autorun the patches and installs. The downloader, installer and patcher are based on NSIS, BITS, RTPatch and 7-Zip/LZMA technologies. Windows Classic (obtained online): The downloader for the Classic edition will download the full Apocrypha install, estimated at 2.2 GB. There isn't that much that can be reused, the installer has better compression and the patcher incurs a certain overhead in the binary diffs, so the size difference between a patch and an install isn't that big. In addition the install is much simpler, simply copies files, while the patcher has to process the already existing files. I would strongly recommend that players update from Classic to Premium before Apocrypha is released, either using the client functionality or by downloading the Classic to Premium Graphics Content Upgrade for build 75883 (Quantum Rise 1.0.5). Already having Premium will simplify patching when Apocrypha is released and also makes it simpler to patch from a Tranquility client to a Singularity client for testing purposes. Windows Premium (obtained online): The downloader for the Premium install will download patches. The patch from Quantum Rise 1.0.5 is estimated at 1.2 GB. Each patch is then larger as the client trying to patch is older. There will be a switchover when the patches are close to 2 GB when the downloader will instead download the full Apocrypha install. This is likely to occur for Trinity, Trinity 1.0.x and possibly even Trinity 1.1 clients. Windows Premium (obtained from the DVD): Same as for the online version, the DVD client is a Quantum Rise client, intermediate version between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5. Mac: The client will download a patch. The install is estimated at 2.5 GB. The installer is just a regular copy, as is the standard on Mac, and the patcher is based on iPatch. Mac Classic (obtained online): The Quantum Rise 1.0.5 client will download a patch, estimated at 2.5 GB. Older clients will be directed to download the full Apocrypha install. The reason is that older clients cannot handle such large downloads in a reliable manner, but this was fixed in QR 1.0.5. Mac Classic with Premium Content (obtained from the DVD): The DVD client will download a patch, estimated at 1.5 GB. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Von Druid Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:12:00 - [5] Originally by: CCP Explorer The DVD client will download a patch, estimated at 1.5 GB. This is a fantastic way to greet new players buying the boxed version, especially those on slow or capped internet connections, bravo.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Von Druid Edited by: Von Druid on 07/02/2009 23:31:49 Originally by: CCP Explorer The DVD client will download a patch, estimated at 1.5 GB. This is a fantastic way to greet new players buying the boxed version, especially those on slow or capped internet connections. How come such a huge amount of art is not finished a month until the release? :/ agreed.. total fail of CCP on this one. Really TOTAL fail! If you cannot do something right don't do it or at least don't advertise it!
achoura	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:46:00 - [7] Edited by: achoura on 08/02/2009 01:47:58 So basically if you have a mac you can stay and home and dl the client or if you don't want to (or can't on your connection) you can go to a shop and buy the boxed copy, take it home and get a link to the initial download you decided you didn't want (or couldn't) to do. Now if, a month before retail the code isn't ready, i.e. before it goes into production, the planning or development was so poor i can't believe it's actually going on sale. Essentially you're selling people and automated link. But hey, it's been years and i'll be able to get a new eve box to replace this ageing one on my desk. Just let me be the first to congratulate yourselves on the crucification you've set yourselves up for. It'll be nice seeing what the media say about it and being honest, they won't be nearly as nice as the poeple here will. Edit: Oh and about bits, it utilises the bandwidth the pc sees not whats actually on the network, that's why it clogs up home lines.
Aya Sin	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:59:00 - [8] Originally by: achoura Now if, a month before retail the code isn't ready, i.e. before it goes into production, the planning or development was so poor i can't believe it's actually going on sale. Essentially you're selling people and automated link. The DVD was probably produced a couple of months ago. These things take time. There's simply no way for them to have the code finalized at least 3 months before release. This isn't different from all the other MMO addons I've installed in my gaming years. That said, I agree that they should have at least made some effort to include some of the larger assets: sounds, music, textures... At least some of those surely must have been ready at that time :-(
Wolfgang Achari	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Von Druid Edited by: Von Druid on 07/02/2009 23:31:49 Originally by: CCP Explorer The DVD client will download a patch, estimated at 1.5 GB. This is a fantastic way to greet new players buying the boxed version, especially those on slow or capped internet connections. How come such a huge amount of art is not finished a month until the release? :/ CCP you should be ashamed of yourself, because this definitely never ever happens with any other MMO currently on the market. Seriously guys? Go buy a boxed version of WoW or something and tell me how big the patch is that you have to download
achoura	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:17:00 - [10] I know they take time, my point is they were planning on selling a game via retail which usually means that said game is on the disk you by in the shop, not a link to download it because it wasn't ready for production. Ea have done some bad things pr wise, but they've yet to charge people for a disk that says "Thanks for buying eve, we didnt actually put the game on here, you just paid 30 quid for a disk so go download it (which you could have done anyway). P.s. tough luck if you have a poor line".

F4LC0N	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:21:00 - [11] As stated by CCP Explorer in a different thread, the boxed version will contain the EVE Online Quantum Rise client and will update to the Apocrypha client.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.02.08 03:38:00 - [12] Considering the fact that unless you live in the middle of no where or are lacking in the cash flow department that there are good internet connections for sale, I really dont find any issue with downloading the patches. Then again, Ive been a long time customer of my isp, have 10 mb/s internet, and probably pay less for then almost everyone here pays for their internet as part of a bundle. Yeah im probably a bit biased.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.08 05:50:00 - [13] So would the best bet be to save your settings folders then uninstall and just download the full client on patch day? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.02.08 06:14:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Explorer Windows Premium (obtained from the DVD): Same as for the online version, the DVD client is a Quantum Rise client, intermediate version between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5. Will the boxed version state minimum system requirements of SM3? Can a new player who can only run SM2 buy the boxed version, install the CD, then download the patch and still use SM2? Originally by: CCP Explorer I would strongly recommend that players update from Classic to Premium before Apocrypha is released, either using the client functionality or by downloading the Classic to Premium Graphics Content Upgrade for build 75883 (Quantum Rise 1.0.5). Already having Premium will simplify patching when Apocrypha is released and also makes it simpler to patch from a Tranquility client to a Singularity client for testing purposes. Just to make sure I understand what I think is your answer to Fumen's second question... In your recommendation above are you also including those that can only run Shader Model 2? When I first read that I assumed you meant players who can run Premium but choose not to.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Von Druid Edited by: Von Druid on 07/02/2009 23:31:49 Originally by: CCP Explorer The DVD client will download a patch, estimated at 1.5 GB. How come such a huge amount of art is not finished a month until the release? :/ Three months before release you mean? We started mastering the DVD in mid-December and delivered the gold master to Atari on 15 January. The DVD contains the Quantum Rise client, the latest stable client available at that time.

Jarnis McPieksu Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:03:00 - [16] Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu on 08/02/2009 10:07:17 Still, that's pretty fail. The right way to do it is to start mastering your DVD only after you have the stuff for the expansion ready. The right way really would be to get the damn thing done (as in art complete, features ready), then stick it to test for three months as the DVDs bake in the oven. You can then toss a retail launch day patch - maybe 100-200MB - on top of the DVD contents, fixing any bugs and adding tweaked/added extra features and small missing bits of art. 1.5GB launch day patch because you put the retail box into production while the damn thing isn't nearly finished is just poor planning. When CCP announced the expansion complete with retail launch date, I thought myself "cool, that means it's almost ready already considering the lead time and we should have it on test soon". Silly me assuming such things. Look at Blizzard. WoW: Lich King box contains what the beta servers had on them about 2.5-3 months before launch of the expansion. Launch day patch was minor, even if Blizzard kept tweaking stuff all the way to launch day. Edit: typos

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:26:00 - [17] Originally by: achoura [...] "Thanks for buying eve, we didnt actually put the game on here, you just paid 30 quid for a disk so go download it (which you could have done anyway). The box includes a lot more than the DVD, such as ETC codes and in-game items. Also, the DVD will reduce significantly what you have to download. Here's a timeline of events: 11 Nov: Quantum Rise deployed 17 Nov: 1st release planning for Apocrypha 18 Dec: disk mastering starts 6 Jan: 2nd release planning for Apocrypha 15 Jan: Gold master delivered to Atari 27 Jan: Quantum Rise 1.0.5 deployed 10 Feb (approx): Apocrypha on Singularity 10 Mar (scheduled): Apocrypha on Tranquility The development effort for Apocrypha is 4 months, we started mastering the disk a month from the start of that cycle (1/4 into the cycle). The reason is simply the lead time needed to press disks, print material, make boxes and distribute to retail.

Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:30:00 - [18] ITT people have never installed MMOs. If you think 1.5 GB is bad, I invite you all to install Conan, WoW or EQ2 from a box and patch up. It's hilarious.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Bacabachaui Originally by: CCP Explorer Same as for the online version, the DVD client is a Quantum Rise client, intermediate version between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5. Will the boxed version state minimum system requirements of SM3? Can a new player who can only run SM2 buy the boxed version, install the CD, then download the patch and still use SM2? The box states SM2, which is the minimum, see this dev blog by CCP Zulupark. Originally by: Bacabachaui Originally by: CCP Explorer I would strongly recommend that players update from Classic to Premium before Apocrypha is released, either using the client functionality or by downloading the Classic to Premium Graphics Content Upgrade for build 75883 (Quantum Rise 1.0.5). Already having Premium will simplify patching when Apocrypha is released. Just to make sure I understand what I think is your answer to Fumen's second question... In your recommendation above are you also including those that can only run Shader Model 2? When I first read that I assumed you meant players who can run Premium but choose not to. Everybody. There will be one client in Apocrypha with a single set of art assets. The client can then render those art assets using either SM2 or SM3. To minimize the download on patch day then I recommend to update to Premium to have on the hard drive all art assets that are available pre-Apocrypha to reduce the patch size on deployment day.


CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu The right way to do it is to start mastering your DVD only after you have the stuff for the expansion ready. And that's exactly what we did, which is why Quantum Rise is on the DVD, the latest available stable client at the time of mastering. Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu 1.5GB launch day patch because you put the retail box into production while the damn thing isn't nearly finished is just poor planning. No, it simply shows the agility and development velocity we are able to maintain. The Windows patch is estimated at 1.2 GB and isn't that much of a download. But perhaps we should look at this differently. What is the value of the box? Is it the game client? No, you can easily get it from our website and the download itself is free. So what is the value? It is the ETC codes in the box, the extra in-game items, owning a physical copy of EVE and a reduced patch size.


Jarnis McPieksu Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:03:00 - [21] Hey, I now fully understand how you have planned the development and launch. I still don't understand why. In proper development schedules you have at least 2-3 months for QA & testing in the end after the thing is feature complete (every piece of art ready, every feature coded). Since it's obviously silly to have artists sitting around doing nothing, that means there is at least two projects in the works most of the time. Designers design, coders code and artists create stuff until it's time to go gold for disc manufacturing and QA & polish to start. This may mean public testing on test server, it may be part inhouse, part public. From this point on majority of the artists move to work on the Next Big Thing, only dipping back to fix any bugs in the stuff that is already on the gold master. If things went well, no bugfixing needed. Coders either split to two groups, one doing the polishing and one moving on to next expansion or same group juggling both things at once - whichever works. With that schedule of yours, the smart thing would've been to set the release (online & retail) to May - even if most of the developers already moved on to create the next expansion from Feb-March onwards as the assets & features were all complete well before the actual launch. It complicates the development a bit (branching etc.) but it's not rocket science. I understand the upsides of the CCP model, moving rapidly, working on tight schedules to get the stuff to the players as quickly as possible, but that style tends to result in bugs, compromises, half-completed features, cut features and.. well, EVE has seen plenty of those. Here's hoping the expansion will be a good one regardless - it's quite possible the end result works out just fine this way too, but in any case 1.5GB patch on day 1 to retail buyers is not something you'd want to do on purpose - like you have done here...
Jarnis McPieksu Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:05:00 - [22] Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu on 08/02/2009 11:05:49 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu The right way to do it is to start mastering your DVD only after you have the stuff for the expansion ready. And that's exactly what we did, which is why Quantum Rise is on the DVD, the latest available stable client at the time of mastering. So were you doing a box for Quantum Rise? I thought the box is Apocrypha (or however thats spelled). Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu 1.5GB launch day patch because you put the retail box into production while the damn thing isn't nearly finished is just poor planning. No, it simply shows the agility and development velocity we are able to maintain. The Windows patch is estimated at 1.2 GB and isn't that much of a download. But perhaps we should look at this differently. What is the value of the box? Is it the game client? No, you can easily get it from our website and the download itself is free. So what is the value? It is the ETC codes in the box, the extra in-game items, owning a physical copy of EVE and a reduced patch size. The main point of a box on the store shelf is obviously to lure in new players. New player getting home and finding out he has to download 1.5GB is bad.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu The right way to do it is to start mastering your DVD only after you have the stuff for the expansion ready. And that's exactly what we did, which is why Quantum Rise is on the DVD, the latest available stable client at the time of mastering. So were you doing a box for Quantum Rise? I thought the box is Apocrypha Neither, it's a box for EVE. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Jarnis McPieksu Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:20:00 - [24] Okay, that explains the decision a bit better. Yet the Marketing and PR so far has painted a picture (at least to me, don't know about others) of the box being Apocrypha, specifically timed to meet the launch of the expansion and promoting features of it (including Premium Lite client etc). It still doesn't change the fact that a 1.5GB (or 1.2GB) download on day 1 is bad experience for retail box buyer who knows little about the game, but... ah well, it's surely way too late to do anything about it anyway (short of dumping a ton of already manufactured boxes and starting over, pushing back retail release. Just Not Going To Happen(tm))
MOS DEF 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:26:00 - [25] 1.5 gigs is nothing nowadays. People don`t use 56kbit modems anymore ya know. Last MMO i patched patched 8 gigs.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:31:00 - [26] i think what ppl are trying to say is why isnt apohctyta on the dvd, but they dont realise that ccp tinkers so much with this game that putting it on the dvd now just aint going to work and the lead times in organising dvd printing, shipping etc is a pain What id like to see is early copies of the new patch orderable on dvd from about the 14th of march. Not the QR patch ( which will require what a massive 1.5gb) patch to move it to the new expansion is what these peple are trying to say without putting it into words Instead allow them to order a apoc original march 10 implmentation ( however there will be mini patches after but thats an easier matter than a chunk of 1.5gb) so that anyone getting it 1-2 weeks after deployment gets the expansion on the dvd not the quantum rise version

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu I still don't understand why. In proper development schedules you have at least 2-3 months for QA & testing in the end after the thing is feature complete (every piece of art ready, every feature coded). Since it's obviously silly to have artists sitting around doing nothing, that means there is at least two projects in the works most of the time. Designers design, coders code and artists create stuff until it's time to go gold for disc manufacturing and QA & polish to start. That's the difference, CCP does not use a waterfall model like the one you describe where QA takes over at the end of coding. We use Scrum for each iteration with each release being a Staged Delivery. QA is embedded with the development teams and we are QA-ing throughout in our sprints. Then we have a month of public testing, part of which will be "hardening" sprints where the programmers and the QA staff jointly participate, as well as the technical artists (the concept artists move on to other things).

Sekket Caldari Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:55:00 - [28] Doesn't a DVD only hold about 2 gigs total anyway?

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu With that schedule of yours, the smart thing would've been to set the release (online & retail) to May - even if most of the developers already moved on to create the next expansion from Feb-March onwards as the assets & features were all complete well before the actual launch. It complicates the development a bit (branching etc.) but it's not rocket science. Well, EVE is in general more complicated than rocket science The complication to the development process is not really the technical things, such as branch management, but rather how expensive context switches are when juggling multiple projects at the same time. Designing and coding on a new project while at the same time stabilizing the previous one is not as effective as simply completing the stabilization and deploying and then moving onto the next project. Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu I understand the upsides of the CCP model, moving rapidly, working on tight schedules to get the stuff to the players as quickly as possible, but that style tends to result in bugs, compromises, half-completed features, cut features and.. well, EVE has seen plenty of those. In software development the concerns are normally the resources, the feature list and the deadline. Fix all three and you got a failed software project, even before it starts. For each 3-6 month EVE development iteration we can consider the resources to be fixed for all practical purposes and CCP operates on very fixed deadlines. So the flexibility we have are the features of each expansion. At the start of each iteration we have a prioritised list of features we want to add or enhance and then we work on that list until we need to freeze for public testing, balancing and stabilisation.


CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.02.08 12:00:00 - [30] Originally by: MOS DEF 1.5 gigs is nothing nowadays. People don`t use 56kbit modems anymore ya know. Last MMO i patched patched 8 gigs. See, EVE wins




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