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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 26 post(s)
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 15:13:00 - [1] It seems the tactical overlay is broken and without that it's close to impossible to move the probes around to where you want them. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 15:23:00 - [2] Ok here is a small problem. When a probe is recovered it comes in a state where it it's sort of unpacked. That means it can't be stacked with other probes. This in turn means that once you have used all probes once you can only load 1 at a time in the launcher and have to reload after each is launched. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 15:47:00 - [3] Would it be possible to show the range from you to the probes on the map? Right now it just shows the range settings on probe it self and not how far away from you it is. Would make it MUCH easier to move the probes into the correct position that way. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:01:00 - [4] Edited by: Hoshi on 09/02/2009 16:00:52 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Ah, it sounds like the movement widget isn't showing up properly, which explains a lot. If you turn off scene2* you should be able to see what you're trying to do. Ah much better, was a bit random trying to move probes without that :) ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:05:00 - [5] What if any effect do skills have atm? ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:45:00 - [6] One skill could perhaps effect probe warp speed.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:47:00 - [7] I think the moving widget is a bit too larger, makes it difficult when you have several probes close to each other, can't really see what is going on. Maybe make the center cube smaller and the arrows thinner while keeping their length.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 17:32:00 - [8] I now have 8 probes in a rough sphere around a site, all sitting at around 0.1 au range and have their range set to the minimum (0.25) and I still can't get more than 77.35% strength. Is that how it's supposed to be? http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/2009.02.09.17.25.34.jpg http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/2009.02.09.17.25.25.jpg
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 17:51:00 - [9] I managed to get it down to 81% before I gave up, just not worth the trouble :) Btw it seems that probe position and moving widget position doesn't always line up. If I unclick active (to see better the relative positions of the probes) and then click it again the sphere and widget can be at a different position, sometimes it's moved all the way back to my ship while other times it might just be 0.1-0.2 au wrong. Makes it very annoying to make fine adjustments. Here is one example: The selected probe is in the cluster with the other probes while the sphere + widget is over by my ship. http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/2009.02.09.17.45.05.jpg And here is another one where the sphere + widget is 0.1 au too much to the left (the selected probe is Probe 48 at the center of the screen). http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/2009.02.09.17.46.28.jpg Not sure how to recreate, just seems to happen randomly. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 17:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Leere what do the different result symbols mean? sometimes I get a red circle, what does it represent? and sometimes I get a dot like the old result symbols but I still can't warp to it. That's a fairly accurate (the site is very close to that spot) hit but not strong enough to warp to, you need a signal strength of 100% (green dot) before you can warp to it. Other types of hits are different sized blueish sphere (with just 1 probe) and a red circle (with 2 probes). ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:58:00 - [11] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Yes, this applies to ships, and yes it will make finding ships harder. Personally I'm happy with this - the current system is IMO too fast, and apart from anything else made ship probing far less common, in my experience. With the old old system people would use safespots because good probing pilots were rare and it took a long time. When the old system came in and everyone realized that there's no such thing as a safespot, the chances of actually finding someone (outside missions and so on) became much lower. I'm interested to see how this new system affects things. That said, if you do have a strong opinion on this issue, please explain it here clearly :) While I can understand and in some way even relate to the issue (I was one of those "good" probers back then, those that we regularly fought against started warp between safes as soon as my probe char entered system :) ). I still can't say I long for the old days. Back then you usually ended up with 2 fleets sitting in different safes smacktalking each other with no actual combat. The new (soon to be old) system meant that yes actually getting a warp in on someone was uncommon but only because people acutally moved around, not just between safes inside a system but also between systems. The result being much more actual combat than before.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:38:00 - [12] Ok I made a vid, not a very good one but at least something. Was a bit unlucky ending up with a low strength site so I needed more than 4 probes and also got hit by the moving sphere bug once. No narration nor any voice over, you will have to have to try to figure out yourself what is happening. I'll look at making a better one tomorrow. Btw at one time I recall all my probes and launch again, this is not needed but due to the jiffiness of moving probes I feel it's mostly faster to do it that way than to move the probes a fairly large distance. http://ww.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/scan.mkv 65.3mb 8min ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Ancy Denaries faillink? You missed a "w". Ops fixed :) Eve files mirror coming soon as well but I think the current server can handle it fairly well. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 21:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Armoured C post in evetube.com so i dont have to download it but stream it pwease =) Done see original post.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:34:00 - [15] Originally by: DrAtomic Well i can't say I find the manual movement/placement of probes to be userfriendly, the map gets in the way big time (moonlists, and stations you hover over popping up and cluttering your clicks/view). Returning probes suffer from the drone recall issue plus they are too slow (can out run them easily). You can remove both the moonlist and the station popups if you want, go to the map control-> Solar System Map, click the eye icon next to Moon and the text popup icon next to station.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.10 23:01:00 - [16] The tests I have done so far trying to determine compound strength lead me to believe that adding more probes after the 4th should have minimal effect on strength. If I have 2 probes with strength 50% individual then combines strength will be around 41%, if I add a 3rd probe at 50% the combined will stay at 41%, this holds true all the way up to 8 probes. Also having 2 probes at 50% will give the same combined result as 1 probe at 60% and one at 40%. So it seems it's just the avg probe strength that matters. But the system do seem to break down a bit once you reach more than 100%+ on at least 1 probe. My calculated combined doesn't follow the above anymore at that point it. Going to have to do more tests. In the meantime the combined signal strength of 2+ probes with strength less than 100% individually are equal to avg probe strength * 0.81. The probes have the same strength reduction due to range as in the current system. So it's e^-((Target Range/Probe Range)^2).
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.10 23:28:00 - [17] Btw due to how the range formula works you should aim to get your exploration probes within 0.05 au from the target (20% of max range), that will give the probes 96+% effective strength, 0.075 au (30%) will give 91+% effective strength. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Marlenus Buzzard covops has 50 sig radius, the Bantam I chased so hard up-thread has 44. Old system used Sig Radius/Sensor Strength. I have not checked yet but I am fairly certain the new system use the same. So a buzzard has less than 1/3rd of the signal size of a bantam. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Jonathan Calvert Is there a "stop scan" button in the new scanner, and if not can you add one? Its annoying to click the wrong thing then wait 2 minutes for the scan to stop. Scan time is now base 10 sec, down to 2.5 or less with skills etc. No real need for such a button anymore. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.12 02:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Col Callahan Edited by: Col Callahan on 12/02/2009 00:13:08 To the power of ^8 So is there any reason why this should not hit 100%. I mean I know the trig that is involved in GPS locating and this is over kill, 8 different points of over lapping intersection, any way. this should be a bug and should already be on a list for fixing. just my little report. You could probably get the strength up 10% or so by placing the probes closer to the target. But that's far from enough of course. But if you check earlier in this thread the devs have already said that they will be reblancing signal sizes of the sites. The difficult to find ships are actually a much larger problem as they can't be rebalanced in an easy way. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.12 02:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Hoshi on 12/02/2009 02:09:55 Originally by: Mes Ren Pretty sure it's even worse, as I believe your skills will affect that ratio, meaning that putting a skilled pilot in that bantam may make it impossible to scan. There are no skills that affect neither of the stats used. But there are modules. Shield extenders and rigs and inertial stabilizers will increase signature radius making you easier to find. There are also 2 things that reduce sig radius but they are less common, Halo implants and one of the gang links. The more common mod that will make you harder to find is ECCM but the type of ships that are hard to find usually don't have room for ECCM, the exception would be some recon ships. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:18:00 - [22] Originally by: StickyFingerz Originally by: Msgerbs Why do we seriously need 4 probes? TRIangulation requires 3 probes, not 4. Not a complaint rather than question, but I'm sure I'll be flamed either way. i found a tiny plex 2 nights ago on sisi with 3 probes, (and had 100% and could warp to it). not sure what all this 4 probe guff is about. If all 3 probes are in the same plane which is also the plane the target is in the 2 results it should normally give is collapsed into 1 as stated by devs earlier in this thread. Originally by: Miss Moonwych Hoshi: based on your own findings would you agree that the best probe setup with this new system would be a tiny Tetrahedron? (and not for example an Octahedron or Cube) I need to do more testing before I can comment on that but it seems likely yes. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.12 13:31:00 - [23] Originally by: DeepBlue Edited by: DeepBlue on 12/02/2009 13:25:48 Edited by: DeepBlue on 12/02/2009 13:16:19 about sig strenghts: if a base sig strenght has .54% or less, i am not able to get a 100% result for this - max i get for that is 99.54. whats a base sig strength? - drop one core probe, set it to 32 au and then you get results what you have in system. everything above .54% im able to scan, everything lower then this i cant. any other person could confirm this? //update 5 sigs at .54- i wasnt able to get the 6th i managed to get, though it was 0.55. This should depend on the placement of the 32au probe in relation to the target or to be exact the range. Are we talking about placing the 32au probe right on top of the target or 30 au away? ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:51:00 - [24] Originally by: DeepBlue moving that 32 au probe closer and farer away didnt make a really big difference. sig% dist 0.46 - 17.51au 0.71 - 9.00au You almost doubled the strength by moving it 8.5 au and you say it didn't make a big difference? ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Dreshna How easy is it to get 4 hits on something that far out so that you can warp to it though? Very easy actually. A 500 au safe shouldn't take more than maybe 3-4 min longer to crack at most than a close safe.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.13 18:05:00 - [26] Originally by: DeepBlue Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: DeepBlue moving that 32 au probe closer and farer away didnt make a really big difference. sig% dist 0.46 - 17.51au 0.71 - 9.00au You almost doubled the strength by moving it 8.5 au and you say it didn't make a big difference? yes, but plz read all the results. What I am trying to say is that you said a site with a strength of 0.54% or less would be impossible to find. But without stating at what range to the probe you get this 0.54% you give no useful information. If Site A has 0.54% at 0au and Site B has 0.54% at 31au and the max with multiple 0.25 au probes on site A is 50% then the max for site B would be 150% (displayed as 100%). That's how much difference it makes in the end. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.13 23:09:00 - [27] Edited by: Hoshi on 13/02/2009 23:09:29 It seems probe strength is actually inverse. The less strength the better. A Combat Scanner Probe has a strength of 5 at 0.5 au, 10 at 1.0au, 20 at 2.0 etc. Target Size = Signature Radius / Sensor Strength Signal strength = Target Size / Probe Strength, result in %, value >= 1.0 > 100% Combined probe strength of multiple probes are avg strength * 1.25 So if we place 4 0.5 au probes surrounding and very close to a target (to ignore signal reduction due to range) we get a combined probe strength of 6.25 which means that any target withs Target size of less than 6.25 can not be found. To put this in perspective all force recons are just above this value so they can be found (unless they have ECCM) while all combat recons are just below and can not be found. Most frigate are also below this value. The bantam mentioned earlier in this thread has 6.286 which means it can be found with perfectly placed probes. Edit: Btw skill do NOT effect probe strength at this time. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:28:00 - [28] If you can't get 100% with 1 probe you will never get 100% with multiple probes as you get a 25% strength reduction when you combine probes. Basically there is a hard limit both for ships and sites where below this point it's theoretically impossible to locate the target. For sites Greyscale has already said he will be rebalancing their signal size so no need to go on about that anymore. For ships it's a different matter, no easy way to re balance their sizes. Could be it's intended to be impossible to find small ships, we haven't gotten any feedback this yet so hard to tell. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Lorq vonRay Edited by: Lorq vonRay on 14/02/2009 21:43:46 1 2 is there anything else i can do to to be able to warp to that cosmic sig? or is it a lack of skills on my part? on the test server i dont have astrometric pinpointing nor triangulation(on tranq i have both to 2) would those skills allow me to find this elusive cosmic sig? At least in the second picture I think you have the probes to close to each other so the result from them collapses to to just being the result from 1 probe. Similar in the first picture it looks like you are getting collapsed results so you don't get a combined result but actually several single hits on the same site. The fact that you have 4 hits so close together is the hint that gives it away, all those 4 hits are probably the same site reported individually by the probes. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.15 00:19:00 - [30] Problems with the implementation of the probe system and how to solve them There are 3 problems with the probe system that are not related to the interface and similar. These are: 1. Some ships can not be found. 2. PVP probing takes too long, the need to go down to 0.5au probes for almost all targets is a problem. 3. Exploration probing are too fast and too easy. Solutions: Point 1 and 2 can be solved by a single change. Radical increase (or actually decrease) the strength of the Combat Scanner Probe. Scanning works so that less strength is better, to get a 100% hit you need to bring the probe strength down below the size (Signature Radius/Sensor Strength) of the target. Currently Combat probes have strength 5 at 0.5 au, this is doubled for each range increase so you get 10 at 1.0 au, 20 at 2.0 au etc. When 2 or more probes are used together the strength is increased by 25% so the effective probe strength with 0.5 au probes are in reality 6.25. This means that any target with a size less than 6.25 will be both practically and theoretically impossible to locate with probes. To solve this problem we drastically reduce the 0.5 au strength to somewhere around 1-2. I prefer going as low as 1 but 2 with the possibility to reduce at least 25% with skills is good enough. Going all the way to 1 means that the probes become effectively 5 times better than currently. So what are the practical implication of this change? First it makes all targets possible to find with probes. The smallest ships (which includes most t2 frigates) in the game has a size around 2-3 so it's needed to bring it down this far. It would still be possible to make these ships impossible to find by fitting 1 or more ECCM but I find that to be a not too large issue. Second it makes probing for larger ships much easier. Right now you need to get down to either 1au probes with good placement or 0.5 au probes (which by the nature of their size needs at least as good placement as 1.0 au probes. By changing the 0.5 au range probes to 1 and the double strength per range increase you will be able to use either well placed 8au probes or more likely 4 au probes instead to find battleships. This of course makes it much faster to get the probes into position around the target while still requiring player skill. For battlecruisers 4 au probes would be needed, for cruisers you would need to go down to 2 au while most t1 frigates would requirer 1 au and t2 frigates 0.5 au. To me this seems like a good progression of probe range to ship class. Solution to problem 3 The solution is to introduce deviation with deterministic randomness. The result from a non 100% probe should not be a distance but an interval. The position of the upper and lower bounds compared to the position of the target should be randomly decided but using the probe coordinates as the random seed, this means that as long as you don't move the probe it will always give the same result so it won't be possible to continually scanning to get a "better" result. The result are the following. 1 probe now gives a hollow sphere with a thickness equal to the deviation. 2 probes give a torus. 3 probes give 2 spheres with the target anywhere inside the sphere (not just the edge). 4 probes give 1 sphere. The size of the sphere is determined by the strength of the probes, the weaker strength the larger sphere. It will actually most likely be not a sphere but an Ellipsoid as not all not all probes would be at the same range and so giving different strengths. Example: We have a target 20au away and get a result with a 10au width, this is now randomly placed around the target which means we could get 5-10au or 10-15au or anything inbetween. The position of the interval given by that probe is fixed as long as you don't move the probe, even if more probes are added, those probes have their own randomly fixed intervals which creates the torus and ellipsoid above. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.15 11:56:00 - [31] Originally by: Space Wanderer This contradicts my own tests. How did you test it? My tests were done in the following way: First I located the position of the scanned ship on the map using the long range of combat probes. Then I dropped a single combat probe on top of the map position and scanned only with that probe to obtain the sig strength at (almost) 0 distance. I consistently found that the sig strength observed by that probe was halved as long as the range was doubled. How did you test it? I am pretty sure that you are more focused than me on ship scanning, so I think your data may be more reliable, but I need to know the exact test procedure you used to replicate it and make some sense out of it. This inconsistency sounds like a nasty bug. EDIT: now that I think of it, I MIGHT have tested the combat probes in this way on cosmic signatures, not ships, assuming that the behavior of the same probe would be the same with signatures and ships. That assumption might not be true. I'll test more thoroughly when sisi is up again. In the meanwhile can you post how did you test it so I can try to replicate it? It's not really a contradiction. Just a different way of looking at the numbers. Signal strength is equal to Target Size / Probe Strength. If we take a ship with a size of for example 20 (like a scorpion, I like the scorp for testing due to it having such a nice even number). Drop a probe right on top of it and set it to 8 au. Scan and you will get a result for 25%, at 8 au you have a strength of 80. 20 / 80 = 0.25 = 25%, set it to 4 au, now you have a strength of 40, 40/80 = 0.5 = 50%, set it to 2 au, you now have a strength of 20, 20/20 = 1 = 100%. Now move the probe 1 au away so it's half way inside the sphere, range formula gives us e^-((1au/2au)^2) = 0.78 so we now have a strength of 20/0.78 = 25.6 -> 20 / 25.6 = 0.78 = 78% which is what the probe will report (or at least something close to this as it depends on how exact you placed the probe and rounding). ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.15 12:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker I think you meant 20 / 40 = 50%. Ops fixed :) Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker I think in Hoshis case the "probe strength" is just a rare number. A way to calculate with it. I assume you meant with halving the distance your probes got twice as effectiv? If so, Hoshi is saying the same, the only difference is, that his "strength" gets more effective the smaller it gets. So a probe with strength 1 would be twice as effective as a probe with strength 2. This is correct. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:47:00 - [33] Originally by: Space Wanderer Hoshi, wouldn't this formula work to evaluate the sig str of a probe left on the spot? sig str = size * probe-base-str / range. Applying that to a scorpion means: 20 (size) * 20 (base str of combat probe) / 8 (range modifier for 4AU) = 50 It seems more intuitive to me. That does seem to fit better with the numbers reported by the probe info window. As for intuitive it has both strengths and weaknesses, personally I find my way to be easier to compare to target size. But yeah I should probably use your way for any possible future guide. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.15 20:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Space Wanderer b) A battleship fitting 3 ECCM will be unfindable. Probably two ECCM should be enough too. I tried it with a rokh. With two ECCM it would have its size at about 5.81, probably already beyond the detectability threshold. With 3 ECCM the size goes to 3.75, well below the detectability threshold. Another reason why base strength needs to be brought up to around 100. That would reduce min size for finding down to 1.25. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.15 20:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Space Wanderer Yes, but that would open another can of worms, since combat probes would be better than core probes at finding sites... Well, now that I understand better your math I'll go back to read your balancing post, trying to gather more info. Hope to be able to give more insights later. They can easily rebalanced core probes and site sizes around these values, ship sizes are the only fixed value in these equations, everything else can be changed at will by the devs without effecting any other part of the system. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.16 20:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Rawr Cristina It is possible to get the probes close enough to get a 100% result (see: this pic) but to actually get a hit you'd need all 4 probes positioned around that site but you simply can't make precise enough movements right now to do that. If the result is 0.10% with a 1024 au probe then it will not be possible to locate. Smallest possible signal strength for a 1024 au probe and still be locatable is 0.13% (or 0.1221 to be exact but in practice it will be slightly above this and scan window only show 2 decimals). How to reach this number: Core Probe Strength = 40 Multiple Probe Strength reduction = 25% Target Signal Strength = 100 Smallest locatable size = 100 / (40 / 1.25) = 3.125 Signal strength of a 3.125 size site with a 1024 au probe: 3.125 * 5 (base signal strength) / 128 (range divider for 1024 au) = 0.1221% ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.16 20:41:00 - [37] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Hoshi Problems with the implementation of the probe system and how to solve them This is pretty much what we're doing/intending to do, and the "stored random seed" idea is what the programmer I was talking to thought was probably the best way to do it. Cookie for you. Nice :) I am still a bit concerned about the hard limit to the size of targets being possible to find with probes. Are you really taking my advice and beefing up base strength to make all targets locatable or are you looking at some other solution for that? ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

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