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Lord TYMAN You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:02:00 - [1] Hi all, Amarr BS spec'd pilot here. Like anyone else who used to enjoy PvP in this game, I absolutely loath Falcons and how they've made what was once a fun past time - now a "sigh-fest" of ECM vs ECM. Anyway - I want to make a ship that will leave falcon pilots ****ting themselves. Amirite in saying i should be going for a tach beam II apoc with 2 x F-90s and 2 x ECCMs in the mids (to lock and shoot up to 180km?) Never fitted a sniper before, any tips and hints welcomed. Cheers :)
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:17:00 - [2] [Abaddon, anti-falcon] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Tracking Enhancer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECCM - Radar II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I high-alpha so maybe you can make it happen before he realizes and gtfo, but I doubt it. At those ranges you'll need more than one sniper to insta-pop him before he warps out and any decent falcon pilot would probably be aligned and warps at first sight of trouble.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:22:00 - [3] Off the top of my head this is a fit I have rolled with: 8 tachyon MWD/2 sensor booster/ECCM 1600mm/2x HS/1x TE/2x ANP (may be able to switch one of these to an EANM)/DC as many Ancillary current routers to make it fit (think it is 2), and a trimark. Might also need a 3% cpu implant. this hits at 188km for 300+ dps, and with drones will do about 800 at 40km with AN MF. Use in a rem rep BS/logistics gang with a damnation (and extra for extra bonus, an eos) supporting.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Endless Subversion on 09/02/2009 18:31:19 Edited by: Endless Subversion on 09/02/2009 18:30:26 I used to use this for small gang anti-falcon work. The idea was to: a)Provide effective small gang anti-ECM, specifically falcon, support b) sill be able to provide decent small gang support dps against close range BS TBH, at least for very small gang work it failed totally. I used it maybe 10x against falcons before ditching the idea. You still can't alpha a falcon. Even an honor tanked falcon takes 2-3 volleys and most of the pirate falcons I shot seemed to be 1600mm plated. So instead they tend to warp out and come back. It reduces the jamming somehwat but doesn't stop it, and the second you shoot the falcon and he says something on vent you're the new primary! Multiple ongrid SS are impossible to stop. The best example of this was versus some pirate blackbird pilot. He had maybe 3 ongrid safespots, all outside sentry range. After the first time I shot him he warped from SS 1 to SS 2 to SS 3. When he'd land at each spot, he'd drop jammers on my gangmates and then immediately warp again. It was like I wasn't there. I had one falcon play the uncloak, jam, recloak game. Depending on lag he can do this forever. Finally, probably the most frustrating times was when I, with 3x overloaded ECCM got jammed. Chance based, blah blah. Still it sucks. I eventually gave up on it because it's a glass cannon that gives your small gang the false sense of falcon immunity, when the better ECM pilots are nearly immune and even the worst ones don't die, just get forced off the field for as long as their warp.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Wideen [Abaddon, anti-falcon] (...) high-alpha so maybe you can make it happen before he realizes and gtfo, but I doubt it. At those ranges you'll need more than one sniper to insta-pop him before he warps out and any decent falcon pilot would probably be aligned and warps at first sight of trouble. Guess you could even drop a heatsink for another lowslot eccm to be on the safe side. Damage output should be decent against falcons as lasers shoot into their resist hole quite nicely.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:39:00 - [6] Anti falcon Apoc: 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L 2x Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 2x ECCM - Radar II 3x Heat Sink II 1x Reactor Control Unit II 3x Tracking Enhancer II 1x Ancillary Current Router I 2x Ionic Field Projector I 231+25, 249k targeting range, 2x ECCM. Played around with it a bit and then decided I'd rather be in a double ECCM baddon killing stuff on the gate.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Damage output should be decent against falcons as lasers shoot into their resist hole quite nicely. See, I've found that most of the low sec falcon pilots use 2x electronic warfare rigs (ECM strength, ECM range, Lock range etc) and a 1600mm plate. That actually means that most of their HP are in their armor. Which means explosive is their weakest resist by far. When we still thought sniper BS might be a small gang counter to falcons we had the most luck with a locus rigged maelstrom. It was even better than my apoc. However, now that locus rigs are stacking penalized and gun stacking allows true insta-laser ammo switching, you're probably better off with the apoc, despite exp being a better dmg type for this.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Murina on 09/02/2009 18:42:59 The apoc will hurt it and maybe pop it, although my favorite anti-sniper BS is the rokh.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:49:00 - [9] From tests, 8x tach II will take shieds and 20-75% armor depending on the hit. Few falcons will stick around to die to the second volley. Don't see how a rokh could really compete well with the apoc for antifalcon.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:53:00 - [10] Edited by: Murina on 09/02/2009 18:55:57 Originally by: Selia Rain From tests, 8x tach II will take shieds and 20-75% armor depending on the hit. Few falcons will stick around to die to the second volley. Don't see how a rokh could really compete well with the apoc for antifalcon. Mid slot availability for eccm and a base sig str of 24 make it a worthY tool for the job, against standard fitted and plated setups.

Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Murina The apoc will hurt it and maybe pop it, although my favorite anti-sniper BS is the rokh. The rokh does thermal/kin dmg and has no dmg bonus. Plus all the suggested fits have 3+ dmg mods on them, so the rokh is never going to outdmg them. That makes it a terrible choice for an anti-falcon ship.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Selia Rain From tests, 8x tach II will take shieds and 20-75% armor depending on the hit. Few falcons will stick around to die to the second volley. Don't see how a rokh could really compete well with the apoc for antifalcon. 6 months ago, when I still thought this might work, I did up a little spreadsheet for total falcon HP across shield/armor/hull for a 1600 plated one and an untanked one. Then I added gang bonuses and had a look. I'm fairly certain I couldn't get any BS to two volley an untanked falcon at 180+ km. I'm at work, so I don't have that spreadhseet here but if I find that there was something that could I'll edit this later.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Endless Subversion The rokh does thermal/kin dmg and has no dmg bonus. The apoc does not have a dmg bonus. Originally by: Endless Subversion Plus all the suggested fits have 3+ dmg mods on them So does the rokh. Originally by: Endless Subversion so the rokh is never going to outdmg them. It will do ok against standardly fitted falcons and against the numpties in plated fits. Originally by: Endless Subversion That makes it a terrible choice for an anti-falcon ship. Base sig str and slot availability for 1 if not 2 96% eccm, while hitting at max along with the above reasons does not make it a terrible choice.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:09:00 - [14] I always like to see ppl use acr rigs , note that those costs more than than the rest of your ship :)
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:14:00 - [15] Originally by: Naomi Knight I always like to see ppl use acr rigs , note that those costs more than than the rest of your ship :) They hurt your wallet but don't boost your enemies when you die(unlike faction, deadspace, cosmos) so I don't see using one now and again as a big deal. Except when I'm broke, ofc.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:16:00 - [16] Yay! People actually thinking about anti Falcon fits rather than whining ... and to think i was losing confidence in the adaptability of eve.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:17:00 - [17] Originally by: daisy dook Yay! People actually thinking about anti Falcon fits rather than whining ... and to think i was losing confidence in the adaptability of eve. /Signed
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:20:00 - [18] Originally by: daisy dook Yay! People actually thinking about anti Falcon fits rather than whining ... and to think i was losing confidence in the adaptability of eve. Well he is doing it wrong , it is free to open you own nerf falcon thread :)
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:50:00 - [19] Edited by: Endless Subversion on 09/02/2009 19:50:41 I've seen you post in what seems like hundreds of threds Murina, yet I've never seen you post anything worth reading. Quote: The apoc does not have a dmg bonus. Very good! Tachyons on the apoc, doing EM/Therm out dmg the kin/therm large rails vs falcon pilots at basically every range. And since both ships fit an equal number of dmg mods, it's never better, from a dmg standpoint, to use the Rokh. Quote: It will do ok against standardly fitted falcons and against the numpties in plated fits. The apoc already isn't OK vs falcons. A decrease in performance is terribad, like using a rokh as a anti-falcon sniper. Quote: Base sig str 24 and slot availability for 1 if not 2 96% eccm, while hitting at max along with the above reasons does not make it a terrible choice. The inability of the rokh to do good dps to the falcon plus it's ****-poor close range dps makes it a terrible choice to use as a small gang anti-falcon sniper
Kirzath Amarr Sinister Elite	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:47:00 - [20] Fit a passive targeting system. Falcon won't see you trying to lock it, and won't be able to jam you until it's too late.

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:52:00 - [21] I have also rolled with antifalcon rokhs, they are good if you can't fly amarr, but the problem is less to do with any kind of EHP or damage at range (fit does 285 at 194km) but when switched to close range ammo, the damage is pathetic, around 600 instead of around 800 for the apoc. That is the reason why I wouldn't advocate its use in a gang of less than 8 BS (ideally 1 apoc antifalcon as per my fit above, 1 rokh like this or a mega similarly fit, then 2+ megas, 2+ geddons).
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:54:00 - [22] Edited by: Murina on 09/02/2009 20:55:31 Originally by: Endless Subversion I've never seen you post anything worth reading. And yet worthy of a reply?... Originally by: Endless Subversion Very good! Tachyons on the apoc, doing EM/Therm out dmg the kin/therm large rails vs falcon pilots at basically every range. And since both ships fit an equal number of dmg mods, it's never better, from a dmg standpoint, to use the Rokh. Better than the rokh does not make the rokh "worthless" as a anti falcon ship, just not as good as the apoc. Originally by: Endless Subversion The inability of the rokh to do good dps to the falcon plus it's **-poor close range dps makes it a terrible choice to use as a small gang anti-falcon sniper I do not see the words "small gang" as a perquisite maybe you could point it out...and having a sniper that is ver very hard to jam is not a "terrible"** thing to have.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:14:00 - [23] Edited by: James Lyrus on 09/02/2009 23:17:22 Actually, I'd tend to go for a Raven. May sound a little silly, but bear with me - a cruise raven can do good long range damage, but without having to sacrifice a great deal to do it. And yes, the Falcon might just jam/warp, but realistically that's about the best result you get anyway - you're not going to instapop a cruiser at 200km unless you're trying with multiple BS. The Raven y'see, has >200km range with cruise without trying particularly - and at the same time, it can still add (some) value to the gang - cruise DPS ain't great, but it's not bad, and you're not crippled in terms of hitting short range targets by doing that, and you've two highs free for remote rep/neuts. 3500 or so volley damage is quite handy too - enough to two-volley an untanked one. -- 249km locking?
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Endless Subversion Originally by: Lilith Velkor Damage output should be decent against falcons as lasers shoot into their resist hole quite nicely. See, I've found that most of the low sec falcon pilots use 2x electronic warfare rigs (ECM strength, ECM range, Lock range etc) and a 1600mm plate. That actually means that most of their HP are in their armor. Which means explosive is their weakest resist by far. When we still thought sniper BS might be a small gang counter to falcons we had the most luck with a locus rigged maelstrom. It was even better than my apoc. However, now that locus rigs are stacking penalized and gun stacking allows true insta-laser ammo switching, you're probably better off with the apoc, despite exp being a better dmg type for this. I have one +range and one +strength rig on my falcon alt. No plate, instead I have MWD (for when I move around and need to set up new spots) - or multiple pre-setup spots around the gate, usually at least 3. I jam at 190-200, so unless you fire past 190 you won't cut it. Also, I move while jamming, aligned towards next SS to not give a cloaker some warp-in spots on me. And, I tend to play safe rather than sorry. Someone starts to lock me (hey, we're talking past 190km here)? I warp to next spot. Someone MWD's towards me? I warp to next spot when they're 100km from me. All I need is enough time to run the jam cycle, which is no sweat at all to do right here. For bigger hostile gangs you can alwasy do the jam + cloak, decloak + jam trick as well, but so far I havn't needed it.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.10 08:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Selia Rain Anti falcon Apoc: 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L 2x Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 2x ECCM - Radar II 3x Heat Sink II 1x Reactor Control Unit II 3x Tracking Enhancer II 1x Ancillary Current Router I 2x Ionic Field Projector I 231+25, 249k targeting range, 2x ECCM. Played around with it a bit and then decided I'd rather be in a double ECCM baddon killing stuff on the gate. No MWD means the ship will die in the very first bubble it lands in. For low sec "warp in warp out" style of play vs a few people, then it can work.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2009.02.10 08:34:00 - [26] I agree with the people here: If you wanna chase of a falcon you're best off with a sniper raven. The rokh just lacks dps and needs to be fit way too specific to really do anything against a falcon (rokhs are fine BS snipers and make nasty blaster ships, but sniping smaller ships .. rails aren't that good, they would need to fit in a glass cannon way). The apoc makes for an ok falcon sniper if you're trying to kill one, but this fit is probably made by someone not actually using them. No speed mod means it's only useful for low sec. No tank means it's only useful for backup in low sec. It's way easier to bring your own falcon then, which will work oodles better in many situations. Personally I tried a tempest set up, which can carry a heavy neut and get to decent speed while still having 2x sensor boost + 2x eccm and a full rack of 1400s. Get your fitting skills up and you won't need all those expensive rigs either (seriously 2x anc current router ... sisi fit). But in the end this is also a sniper ship and just way too uneffective in normal fights. So it's gonna have to be a raven or falcon just to chase the falcon off. In a big enough group you can try to bring a sniper apoc/tempest to kill one, but you could also just bring some weird domi setup with a recon probe and probe him out on grid. Hella fun, always works, scares the heck out of em and 5 ogre IIs rip through a falcon in 10 secs.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.10 12:19:00 - [27] ..instead of that Raven, park a stealthbomber on the field, preferably a minmatar one, preferably with a interceptor buddy. My previous (somewhat longer) post shows that the Falcon should never die if he isn't an idiot - or fighting a really really large gang. If he has half a brain he's near uncatchable. Your best bet would be to scare the hell out of him. Try get his spots bookmarked. Move quick towards him to force him to jump or cloak nonstop. Have a stealthbomber clearly showing himself on the field, the Falcon don't want to sit there with a fast cloaked mover, especially the minmatar stealthbomber, neither do you want to eat his cruise missiles. Trying to snipe a Falcon with a battleship will only work against idiots, just give it up already.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.10 16:03:00 - [28] Yep, as I said, I gave this idea up months ago for reasons outlined in one of my earlier posts. Basically, it doesn't work as a real counter. However, OP asks for a setup to attempt it, and we're trying to give him the best chance at this. About the raven. It was my understanding that post QR cruises suffer a pretty decent sized dmg reduction now vs the faclon, based on its base speed and signature radius. I don't have the missile spreadsheet at work, but I think I remember Gypsio pointing this out. Does it still out dmg the apoc? Stealth bombers might work in large gangs, but they're rubbish as a small gang counter, since they do absolute crap dps, are a frigate hull and don't tackle. The dps numbers out of a stealth bomber means a falcon ought to be able to sit there TANKING the stealth bombers dmg for multiple jam cycles before it needs to bother warping, and that's assuming he doesn't just jam the thing.
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2009.02.10 16:08:00 - [29] no no no no no. Best anti-falcon boat by a looooong way is the rohk, yes its damage + alpha is less, but you dont need that much damage to force a falcon to retreat. Firstly you need range... at least 230km, when i fly a falcon i fit for 250km jamming, but i need to be a bit closer to take into account some ships come off the gate after jump in @ 20km in any direction. And you can fit alot more ECCM on a rohk than any other battleship while still having the targeting range/gunnry range. Trust me, ive come against alot of gangs with wannabe anti-falcon fits and the only ones that can cause problems are rohks/apocs..., but apocs can still be jammed more often than not.
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:06:00 - [30] Step 1: Fit an Apoc or Rokh for range + 1 ECCM Step 2: Bring along an Ignatious ECCM Support Dominix, with one Projected ECCM switched out for a Remote Sensor Booster (scan Res) Step 3: Laugh at any and every Falcon they bring Step 4: Step 5: Profit -- Don't harsh my mellow



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