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Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:27:00 - [1] nanos were overpowered. I'll miss my nano scimitar. The fact is that nanoing something nearly always made it better. Nanos should have been nerfed when the nano bs trend was snipped. The shame is that ccp waited entirely too long before addressing the issue. Originally by: ebonyivory You want to go out pewing with your friends in lo sec....you only have 5 friends (awww) so you fit out your ships and go a roaming. You run into a blob. You can either a) dock up/cloak/hide or b)fight and die And this is how it should be. Your dream only works when the 5 friend gank squad flies nanos and the blob is in non nanos. It is a dream because it'll only work if you're in nanos and they're not. When you see most blobs flying nanos your dream won't work. 50-100 man nano fleets were not uncommon. And your 5 friend gank squad is a blob against that solo domi or whatever you might run across. It is a matter of perspective. Originally by: ebonyivory you are in a bs gang and you see a bunch of nanoes flying on grid. You can either a) remember you fit a neut and kill them/keep them out of their damage range b)uncloaked your rapier pilot and kill them c)use a suicide ceptor (hey 15 mil traded for 200+ is pretty sweet) d)not fit your ships and whine as they flit around and not break your tank at all Rapiers were required which was an issue. Rapiers were nano'd for a reason. Shouldn't take nanos to kill nanos nor a specific ship to be effective. Rapiers die quickly to nanos so now you need logistics or your own nanos to protect the rapiers. Most nanos (vagas) would melt ceptors. Send a dozen ceptors after a few nanos and you'll just see a lot of small wrecks. The only way to keep the ceptors alive was with logistics. Nano logistics because the fight is going to be 100km+ from you before you know it. So now you need a few logistics ships, a dozen suicide ceptors, and some dps which is quickly outranged all to counter a few nanos. Better off to just get everyone to fly nanos and use a nano blob. Anything not nano'd could not keep up and was a liability. Anyone not in a nano cruiser was better off usually in a nano hac/recon or something. Vaga was a superior ceptor than ceptors. Ceptors/dictors were ineffective against nanos. Originally by: ebonyivory Nanoships risked a lot (average vaga setup costing 200mil+) and were pretty easy to kill if you knew whatyou were doing. 200mil isn't that much. Spending the isk on a nanoship was a superior investment then spending the isk on a battleship. Nanos were only easy to kill when the nano pilot was a moron. Seriously. Did you ever fight mixed groups with/against nanos using non nanos? Nanos were the new blob.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.13 19:32:00 - [2] Edited by: Crackzilla on 13/02/2009 19:35:49 Edited by: Crackzilla on 13/02/2009 19:33:23 Originally by: ebonyivory average cost of a vagabond-200mil+ (as mentioned above average cost of a bs fleet fitted (with neuts) 150mil The vaga is much more likely to survive a fight. A better investment for the isk. We saw this with 2bil nano battleships. Toss on a decent webber and depending on the rigs you're over 200mil for a bs. Considering your chances of losing a bs versus nanos the nano was cheap. Originally by: ebonyivory the nano can either a)flit around outside of warp disruptor range and do nothing ebcause lets face ita bs can easily tank a vagabonds dps or warp off. Or b)can get within 25km and get neuted and die horribly.... Nanos rarely if ever had to switch fittings for the situation. Battleships had to carry remote reps + 1x nuet according to this plan. Plus the webs and whatever. Certainly not fleet fit. Fly a nano and you had less choices to make. Fine. Carry a neut. You'll be tackled long enough for some ishtars and maybe a falcon to show up. Neut doesn't work when you can't target. Takes about 2x cycles of the neut to drain, so a careful pilot can get within range without risk his ship. The ishtar would tear you up. Say you're in a small group of battleships. Can't move except as a group. Last to warp off usually is tackled and dies. Battleships can't ignore the nanos neither can they attack the nanos directly. Nanos weren't very much solo ships. They mostly tackled then waited for more to show up. They were the blob. Originally by: ebonyivory A hictor/dictor is required to tackle a supercap Dreads are required to take down large deathstar poses A hictor made it easier as do dreads. It takes a large number of dreads to safely shoot a deathstar. Otherwise you're inviting a hostile hotdrop. If you can't get the critical number of dreads (100-150 caps + support fleet, minimum) then having the same players in battleships along with some logistics and command ship is a better deal. Takes longer but less isk is risked and more likely the ships will survive. As to dictors, they're fairly cheap and disposable. If a ceptor could web at 20-30km then I would have no issues with nanos. Originally by: ebonyivory Hell i suicided raptors to hold down a rapier while bses popped it (id consider that worth it since the loot alone coverd the cost of my ship). Rapier isn't much of a threat dps wise. It took you 2x players to kill 1x. This leads to the argument that nanos forced blobing. If you had both been in nanos then it is likely you wouldn't have lost anything. Originally by: ebonyivory im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place. Most of the whining was from pvp pilots that wanted to fly something other than nano.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.13 21:49:00 - [3] Originally by: ebonyivory You cant blob nanoes as effectively as you can blob other ships (too expensive) so no they werent the blob. You would get the occasional interceptor death squad (hilariousely fun to fly in) but thats it really...a nano "blob" would consist of 20-30 players (thats not a blob). A nano blob of 20-30 was very common. Nano fleets of 50-100 were not unheard of. Much easier for an fc keep a bunch of nanos moving then waiting for battleships that are falling behind. The isk was only an issue when vagas cost like 400mil each. Otherwise at 200mil fully fitted they were one of the best deals in the game. Originally by: ebonyivory You cant tackle a supercap without a dictor/hictor (hictor in low sec) the idea was to point out that there are other ships that are required to do certain roles. Very easy to ignore/bypass a supercap. Supercaps were never a risk except maybe smartbombing shuttles. Making it not possible to get a normal tackle on a supercap was a horrible design decision. It was possible to kill them in low sec with convoluted plans. This isn't justification for another horrible design decision: nanos. Originally by: ebonyivory You kow how many hours it takes to take down a large pos without dreads? (its along time). I've done it both ways. Takes a long time with dreads unless you've got enough of them. Dreads aren't required to shoot a pos. Originally by: ebonyivory Nanoes didnt encourage blobbing if anything it was the opposite since nanoes could pick at the edges of blobs unless they gave up and went away/died. Your nano fantasy gang died quickly to a larger nano blob. Since it required so many ships to counter nanos blobbing of normal ships was required. Those pilots were better served flying nanos. Nanos only worked as described against non nanos. So everyone nano'd. Problem solved. Originally by: ebonyivory So what pvp players wana fly something other than nano? Now they all fly bs....which is what they were flying before...soo errr yeah. Speed can work however it isn't an "I Win" button. We see more mixed fleets. The "nerf" worked. Originally by: ebonyivory Vaga is not fine. Would thought that was pretty obvious. The sig radius means that missiles hit for sizeable dmage and the speed nerf itself means that turrets can track it. Since the vaga cant actually fit any real buffer tank underneath the speed its effectively crap (certainly crap compared to other ships). So it takes damage... like everyone else?
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.13 23:06:00 - [4] Originally by: ebonyivory Statistically speaking its harder to blob with nanoes than with bses....regardless of the cost effectiveness some people simply dont have the cash or the skills. Nowadays its all just 300 man+ bs fleets smashing against each other aswell rather than the much more fluid nano roams which were more fun. In a large fleet lag fest yes battleships are slightly better. Even in the fleet fight getting to the fight and geting out nanos are better. Nanos only suffer when you disconnect or have a few minutes mod lag and the hostile pod decides to lock your nano. Take away the lag and in any other cases nanos are better. The issue with skills and isk is serious. This is also part of the group that whined about nanos. I fought nanos before I had the skills and isk and it sucked. Nanos worked to exclude those with skillpoints and isk. Originally by: ebonyivory Isk is always an issue if you pvp on a regular basis. Chances are that even with your supposedly "invincible" nanoes (which werent really the case) youd sustain losses if the enemy fleet knew what they were doing. Even looking for fights it takes a while before you pop. Run 2x clients with one grinding isk and another out roaming in a gang with nanos. The ability to make isk far exceeded what I lost with the nano. With a couple of good hauler drops I made enough from dropped towers and bpo sets to pay for my losses. Nanos were cheap. Originally by: ebonyivory Id like to see you ignore bypass 2 titans when they double dd your fleet. Nano'd I'd warp out before either dd went off. In a battleship I'd likely die. I mostly flew dictors in large fleet fests like this. See a titan, warp to a spot 300km off, warp back to a wreck, bubble, warp off to something else on grid. Given a choice between flying a battleship or a prenerfed nano in such a fight I would take nano every day. Originally by: ebonyivory Its another example of when players with isk get nerfed so that players without isk dont whine Isk should give a wealthy player an edge, not an entirely new game. Originally by: ebonyivory My smaller nano blob could ofc run away from the larger nano blob. This leads on to my next point that nanoes discouraged blobbing because a 100man fleet wouldnt get asmany kills as the targets couldrun away (this promoting smaller gangs that they might engage). Only nanos could effectively outrun a 100man non nano fleet. So the 100man fleet started to contain a large percentage of nanos. Both used scouts and tacklers to find stuff to kill. The difference was that a nano gang could go after anything while a non nano gang was mostly restricted to non nanos. Smaller nano groups whined and they themselves figured out the only solution was to bring more numbers. More blobbing. Originally by: ebonyivory caldari at the start of fw Caldari simply saw what everyone else saw in 0.0. Originally by: ebonyivory Speed doesnt work. 1)ceptors die far to easily to light drones 2)vagabonds (which are designed with speed in mind) get pwned by everything. 3)Same with rapiers and huggins 4)it wasnt an i-win button in the first place I also argued that the nerf was a bit too much. shrug Either way something had to be done. Hugs useless Rapier Originally by: ebonyivory everyone else can fit a passable tank wether it be shield or armour. Vagabonds cant,huggins cant, ceptors sure as hell cant. Speed was by far the best tank. It avoided most damage.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:05:00 - [5] Originally by: ebonyivory neuts/nos (pre nerf) tracking computers So how do you figure on fitting a heavy neut/nos on anything but a battleship? Nothing else has the range except a curse (nano, cough)/pilgrim. So a tracking computer. Still would need blasters and a few tracking computers to get anywhere. In general a hurricane would get better dps on a nano, but oh wait, it can't fit a heavy neut. Originally by: ebonyivory ceptors huggin/rapier It took speed to counter speed. Those ceptor pilots would be better off in a vaga. A nano huggin/rapier worked. Nano gangs often traveled with rapiers of their own. The trouble was that often the rapiers would uncloak and you might get a single hostile nano before they would flee. Nano gangs excelled at their ability to limit losses. Originally by: ebonyivory light drones Against ships with 9k+ of a shield buffer and good resists (vaga)? Are you serious? Light drones? Lets assume that the light drone damage can possibly threaten a pre qr nano. Have you forgotten that due to tracking and mwd pulse/follow a light drone would never properly follow a nano? Originally by: ebonyivory webs The only thing that gets within 10km is a deimos. Thats a ship that doesn't nano. For everything else you'd need a faction domi webber, gang buffers, overloading, and luck. Against a bad nano pilot a very experienced player might be able to get a web on with just overloading etc. Generally unlikely that the nano gets close enough. Originally by: ebonyivory tanking your ship Yes, fly a speed tank. At the time it was the best tank in the game. Otherwise with the best armor/shield tank you'll be tackled until more hostiles arrive. More likely that "tank" you speak of just delays you getting popped. Speed tank was the best tank of the game.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:17:00 - [6] Originally by: ebonyivory Alls im asking is that ccp fix it so that huggins/rapiers are actually useful and that vagas can actually pvp without dying horribly to everything. Right after they make every other recon (other than the falcon) useful again. The solution for the huginn/rapier likely isn't in giving it more speed but in a boost to the web percentage. The vaga was designed to trade speed for dps/tank. It should die to most everything unless used in hit and runs or in packs. The vaga is a niche ship just like many other hacs (ie muninn). Originally by: ebonyivory Thats untouchable (mission wise) and untouchable suicide gank wise if you stick near the high of of hi sec. If it had more officer gear it might be worth a suicide gank. Freighters have been suicide ganked. That officer fit cnr doesn't have a chance if someone wants to pop it. Without concord protection that cnr is going to be an easy kill for someone.

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