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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:45:00 -
[1]
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes and its about time they realised that they made a bad decision and changed it back (sorta). Being the nice person i am i highlighted the things that need changing.
When ccp started working on the nano nerf they stated that it was mostly to deal with the "ludicrous" speeds that some ships could attain (a.k.a 10km/s vagabond). OFc as i mentioned before with ccps sledgehammer policy (see minmatatr nerfs/gallente nerfs/missile nerfs) they nerfed all of nanoes so now its practically useless.
The main cause of these "ludicrous" speeds was infact implants. Despite a hg set costing several billion isk carebears did not see this as fair play (while they ratted in their untouchable officer fitted cnrs). So easily just keep the implants nerfed so its impossible to reach ludicrous speeds.
Then remove the nerf on stacking of modules effecting speed such as polycarbs and nanofibers. This will allow interceptors to actually survive more than 20 seconds and will also allow minmatar pilots to actually fly half of their ships again (vagabond,rapier,huggin).
So your probably saying why is this unerf needed. Well i could point to the factthat nanoes were **** easy to kill in the first place (or atleast scare off) but since that didnt work out inthefirst place im going to try a different route.
1.Caldari players will get back their cruise missiles (no need to keep them nerfed)
2.gallentes will get back their blasters for the same reason
3.since the nerf of nanoes the number of blobs has dramatically increased (as the only really effective counter...the nano was made useless).
So thats it basically everyone wins and minmatar actually get to fly their own ships again \0/
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:49:00 -
[2]
Mork&Mindy!
Secure 3rd party service |
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Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:50:00 -
[3]
Adapt or die....nuff said.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:52:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Speaker Dead
Adapt or die....nuff said.
HAve you even tried to armour tank/shield tank a vagabond? OR a rapier/huggin.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chribba
Mork&Mindy!
say, r u bookmarking this or what is this about?
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Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Originally by: Speaker Dead
Adapt or die....nuff said.
HAve you even tried to armour tank/shield tank a vagabond? OR a rapier/huggin.
No, don't fly either. But I certainly see enough of them in 0.0 that clearly people have found a way to adapt....
Corpmates use them as well, and quite effectivly. I fly Caldari, and have managed to adapt as well.
I just think it's unlikely that they will make any changes along this line, no matter how many people complain.
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Feilamya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Feilamya on 12/02/2009 23:04:36
Too late.
Nerfs are never undone. Not by CCP, not by any company running an MMO. Even if a nerf was decided years ago, and conditions that made the nerf necessary have changed since, and an un-nerf would be justified, you will never see an un-nerf. It's an unwritten law of game designers.
More likely, they might nerf the range of all modules and reduce the size of all ships while keeping their speeds the same.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Feilamya
Edited by: Feilamya on 12/02/2009 23:04:36
Too late.
Nerfs are never undone. Not by CCP, not by any company running an MMO. Even if a nerf was decided years ago, and conditions that made the nerf necessary have changed since, and an un-nerf would be justified, you will never see an un-nerf. It's an unwritten law of game designers.
More likely, they might nerf the range of all modules and reduce the size of all ships while keeping their speeds the same.
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Chi Quan
Originally by: Chribba
Mork&Mindy!
say, r u bookmarking this or what is this about?
Shazbut. I don't think he gets it, Chribba.
Oh, and thanks. You just made me feel old.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Chi Quan
Originally by: Chribba
Mork&Mindy!
say, r u bookmarking this or what is this about?
Na-nu na-nu. Mork&Mindy! 
Secure 3rd party service |
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James Malice
Gallente
Coalition Of Resolution
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ebonyivory
stuff
Simple answer: no
I would give you the long answer, but the simple one sums it up nicely. :)
Originally by: MooKids
I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
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Mal Lokrano
Gallente
Faulcon de Lazy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:55:00 -
[12]
Don't you realize that if they did this, all it would do is just get the exact opposite argument again? All this forum would have is nerf nanos over and over and over...
____________________________________________
When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always acertain the vintage of the first two. |
Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:09:00 -
[13]
oh got fly a tengu for amarr sake.
=============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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Vardemis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ebonyivory
[...]
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
If you fight a blob it is your own fault, when you let the opponent decide when you fight, you have lost the initiative already. 'Nano-ships' didn't have to commit to an engagement, which is a big difference to actually chosing between engaging or not.
One of the principles in The Art of War is to make yourself invulnerable first and then strike the opponent when is showing vulnerability, be it caused by you or something else. The 'Nano-design' was a very successful adaption of this, however it was far to easy to achieve.
Blobs are only a real threat if you hold space and play the pos game in which case 'Nano-ships' wouldn't help anyway. For everything else, there are other ways.
One of the core principles in eve is that if you want to shoot someone you have to risk something. 'Nano-ships' broke with that principle, because the risk was just not there.
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes and its about time they realised that they made a bad decision and changed it back (sorta). Being the nice person i am i highlighted the things that need changing.
When ccp started working on the nano nerf they stated that it was mostly to deal with the "ludicrous" speeds that some ships could attain (a.k.a 10km/s vagabond). OFc as i mentioned before with ccps sledgehammer policy (see minmatatr nerfs/gallente nerfs/missile nerfs) they nerfed all of nanoes so now its practically useless.
The main cause of these "ludicrous" speeds was infact implants. Despite a hg set costing several billion isk carebears did not see this as fair play (while they ratted in their untouchable officer fitted cnrs). So easily just keep the implants nerfed so its impossible to reach ludicrous speeds.
Then remove the nerf on stacking of modules effecting speed such as polycarbs and nanofibers. This will allow interceptors to actually survive more than 20 seconds and will also allow minmatar pilots to actually fly half of their ships again (vagabond,rapier,huggin).
So your probably saying why is this unerf needed. Well i could point to the factthat nanoes were **** easy to kill in the first place (or atleast scare off) but since that didnt work out inthefirst place im going to try a different route.
1.Caldari players will get back their cruise missiles (no need to keep them nerfed)
2.gallentes will get back their blasters for the same reason
3.since the nerf of nanoes the number of blobs has dramatically increased (as the only really effective counter...the nano was made useless).
So thats it basically everyone wins and minmatar actually get to fly their own ships again \0/
I hate to break it to you, but...
Last time I checked I'm still doing quite fine in my mega. I still have my blasters, but its good you care.
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SlowMovingFisherman
Minmatar
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:32:00 -
[16]
agreed, booster blasters, while at it boost damps and nerf jammers.
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Updyke
State Wh0re Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes
Yes they did.
Why
To create headroom for T3
T3 will bring nano back       
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 16:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Vardemis
Originally by: ebonyivory
[...]
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
If you fight a blob it is your own fault, when you let the opponent decide when you fight, you have lost the initiative already. 'Nano-ships' didn't have to commit to an engagement, which is a big difference to actually chosing between engaging or not.
One of the principles in The Art of War is to make yourself invulnerable first and then strike the opponent when is showing vulnerability, be it caused by you or something else. The 'Nano-design' was a very successful adaption of this, however it was far to easy to achieve.
Blobs are only a real threat if you hold space and play the pos game in which case 'Nano-ships' wouldn't help anyway. For everything else, there are other ways.
One of the core principles in eve is that if you want to shoot someone you have to risk something. 'Nano-ships' broke with that principle, because the risk was just not there.
reasons you are stupid
example 1:
You want to go out pewing with your friends in lo sec....you only have 5 friends (awww) so you fit out your ships and go a roaming. You run into a blob. You can either a) dock up/cloak/hide or b)fight and die
example 2: (pre nano nerf)
you are in a bs gang and you see a bunch of nanoes flying on grid. You can either a) remember you fit a neut and kill them/keep them out of their damage range b)uncloaked your rapier pilot and kill them c)use a suicide ceptor (hey 15 mil traded for 200+ is pretty sweet) d)not fit your ships and whine as they flit around and not break your tank at all
Nanoships risked a lot (average vaga setup costing 200mil+) and were pretty easy to kill if you knew whatyou were doing.
Blobs are only a real threat if you want to solopvp/small gang pvp/have a smaller blob. Back in nanoes they were only really a threat if you enjoyed a slugout and you had less players.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 16:26:00 -
[19]
How is utilizing superior numbers newer than beta-era tactics? |
ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
How is utilizing superior numbers newer than beta-era tactics?
WHat?
What im saying is that blobs were easier to counter with nanoes (you know following the whole no specific type of fleet should be invincible sorta thing). But then surprise surprise ccp nerfed nano and blobs are practically the only way to fly.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:05:00 -
[21]
failthread of the day
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Jaitee
Tecknotic
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:22:00 -
[22]
Why does everything have to be about PVP? Ha! stupid pirates.
It's so my Mastodon can get to warp faster without the broadsword sitting on a low sec gate to get within range to focus scram me. Haha stupid Broadsword. |
Zyck
KDS Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:23:00 -
[23]
You should go check out the speeds of the new tech 3 cruisers.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:27:00 -
[24]
nanos were overpowered. I'll miss my nano scimitar. The fact is that nanoing something nearly always made it better. Nanos should have been nerfed when the nano bs trend was snipped.
The shame is that ccp waited entirely too long before addressing the issue.
Originally by: ebonyivory
You want to go out pewing with your friends in lo sec....you only have 5 friends (awww) so you fit out your ships and go a roaming. You run into a blob. You can either a) dock up/cloak/hide or b)fight and die
And this is how it should be.
Your dream only works when the 5 friend gank squad flies nanos and the blob is in non nanos. It is a dream because it'll only work if you're in nanos and they're not. When you see most blobs flying nanos your dream won't work. 50-100 man nano fleets were not uncommon.
And your 5 friend gank squad *is* a blob against that solo domi or whatever you might run across. It is a matter of perspective.
Originally by: ebonyivory
you are in a bs gang and you see a bunch of nanoes flying on grid. You can either a) remember you fit a neut and kill them/keep them out of their damage range b)uncloaked your rapier pilot and kill them c)use a suicide ceptor (hey 15 mil traded for 200+ is pretty sweet) d)not fit your ships and whine as they flit around and not break your tank at all
Rapiers were required which was an issue. Rapiers were nano'd for a reason. Shouldn't take nanos to kill nanos nor a specific ship to be effective. Rapiers die quickly to nanos so now you need logistics or your own nanos to protect the rapiers.
Most nanos (vagas) would melt ceptors. Send a dozen ceptors after a few nanos and you'll just see a lot of small wrecks. The only way to keep the ceptors alive was with logistics. Nano logistics because the fight is going to be 100km+ from you before you know it. So now you need a few logistics ships, a dozen suicide ceptors, and some dps which is quickly outranged all to counter a few nanos. Better off to just get everyone to fly nanos and use a nano blob.
Anything not nano'd could not keep up and was a liability. Anyone not in a nano cruiser was better off usually in a nano hac/recon or something. Vaga was a superior ceptor than ceptors. Ceptors/dictors were ineffective against nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Nanoships risked a lot (average vaga setup costing 200mil+) and were pretty easy to kill if you knew whatyou were doing.
200mil isn't that much. Spending the isk on a nanoship was a superior investment then spending the isk on a battleship.
Nanos were only easy to kill when the nano pilot was a moron.
Seriously. Did you ever fight mixed groups with/against nanos using non nanos? Nanos *were* the new blob.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Crackzilla
200mil isn't that much. Spending the isk on a nanoship was a superior investment then spending the isk on a battleship.
Nanos were only easy to kill when the nano pilot was a moron.
average cost of a vagabond-200mil+ (as mentioned above
average cost of a bs fleet fitted (with neuts) 150mil
the nano can either a)flit around outside of warp disruptor range and do nothing ebcause lets face ita bs can easily tank a vagabonds dps or warp off. Or b)can get within 25km and get neuted and die horribly....
nanoes werent hard to counter in the slightest. But then just to poke holes in your idea.
A hictor/dictor is required to tackle a supercap
Dreads are required to take down large deathstar poses
There are lots of ships that are a nessecity when dealing with other ships.
Hell i suicided raptors to hold down a rapier while bses popped it (id consider that worth it since the loot alone coverd the cost of my ship).
Rapiers were not required to kill/win against a nano, heres a list.
1.Suicide ceptors
2.curses
3.pilgrims
4.anything with a large neut
5.ships with lots of tracking mods
6.other nanoes (hell you fight bses with bses dont ya)
7.pimped out light drones (lots of them)
8.falcons (stealth falcon whine)
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:45:00 -
[26]
Nerf Nano more |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:11:00 -
[27]
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:23:00 -
[28]
Speed setups are better than they ever were.
Why?
Because you're not instantly dead upon entering web range.
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249km locking? |
ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: NightmareX
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are.
Tell that to vagabond/rapier/huggin pilots (basically no one flies the rapier or huggin anymore) and the vaga can easily be pwned by just about anything.
And why shouldnt i whine im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place. If you dont make a fuss now pvp will be nerfed (again) and will be teh ****e.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:32:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 13/02/2009 19:35:49
Edited by: Crackzilla on 13/02/2009 19:33:23
Originally by: ebonyivory
average cost of a vagabond-200mil+ (as mentioned above
average cost of a bs fleet fitted (with neuts) 150mil
The vaga is much more likely to survive a fight. A better investment for the isk. We saw this with 2bil nano battleships.
Toss on a decent webber and depending on the rigs you're over 200mil for a bs.
Considering your chances of losing a bs versus nanos the nano was cheap.
Originally by: ebonyivory
the nano can either a)flit around outside of warp disruptor range and do nothing ebcause lets face ita bs can easily tank a vagabonds dps or warp off. Or b)can get within 25km and get neuted and die horribly....
Nanos rarely if ever had to switch fittings for the situation. Battleships had to carry remote reps + 1x nuet according to this plan. Plus the webs and whatever. Certainly not fleet fit. Fly a nano and you had less choices to make.
Fine. Carry a neut. You'll be tackled long enough for some ishtars and maybe a falcon to show up. Neut doesn't work when you can't target. Takes about 2x cycles of the neut to drain, so a careful pilot can get within range without risk his ship. The ishtar would tear you up.
Say you're in a small group of battleships. Can't move except as a group. Last to warp off usually is tackled and dies. Battleships can't ignore the nanos neither can they attack the nanos directly.
Nanos weren't very much solo ships. They mostly tackled then waited for more to show up. They were the blob.
Originally by: ebonyivory
A hictor/dictor is required to tackle a supercap
Dreads are required to take down large deathstar poses
A hictor made it easier as do dreads. It takes a large number of dreads to safely shoot a deathstar. Otherwise you're inviting a hostile hotdrop. If you can't get the critical number of dreads (100-150 caps + support fleet, *minimum*) then having the same players in battleships along with some logistics and command ship is a better deal. Takes longer but less isk is risked and more likely the ships will survive.
As to dictors, they're fairly cheap and disposable. If a ceptor could web at 20-30km then I would have no issues with nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Hell i suicided raptors to hold down a rapier while bses popped it (id consider that worth it since the loot alone coverd the cost of my ship).
Rapier isn't much of a threat dps wise. It took you 2x players to kill 1x. This leads to the argument that nanos forced blobing. If you had both been in nanos then it is likely you wouldn't have lost anything.
Originally by: ebonyivory
im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place.
Most of the whining was from pvp pilots that wanted to fly something other than nano.
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