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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:45:00 -
[1]
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes and its about time they realised that they made a bad decision and changed it back (sorta). Being the nice person i am i highlighted the things that need changing.
When ccp started working on the nano nerf they stated that it was mostly to deal with the "ludicrous" speeds that some ships could attain (a.k.a 10km/s vagabond). OFc as i mentioned before with ccps sledgehammer policy (see minmatatr nerfs/gallente nerfs/missile nerfs) they nerfed all of nanoes so now its practically useless.
The main cause of these "ludicrous" speeds was infact implants. Despite a hg set costing several billion isk carebears did not see this as fair play (while they ratted in their untouchable officer fitted cnrs). So easily just keep the implants nerfed so its impossible to reach ludicrous speeds.
Then remove the nerf on stacking of modules effecting speed such as polycarbs and nanofibers. This will allow interceptors to actually survive more than 20 seconds and will also allow minmatar pilots to actually fly half of their ships again (vagabond,rapier,huggin).
So your probably saying why is this unerf needed. Well i could point to the factthat nanoes were **** easy to kill in the first place (or atleast scare off) but since that didnt work out inthefirst place im going to try a different route.
1.Caldari players will get back their cruise missiles (no need to keep them nerfed)
2.gallentes will get back their blasters for the same reason
3.since the nerf of nanoes the number of blobs has dramatically increased (as the only really effective counter...the nano was made useless).
So thats it basically everyone wins and minmatar actually get to fly their own ships again \0/
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:49:00 -
[2]
Mork&Mindy!
Secure 3rd party service |
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Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:50:00 -
[3]
Adapt or die....nuff said.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:52:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Speaker Dead
Adapt or die....nuff said.
HAve you even tried to armour tank/shield tank a vagabond? OR a rapier/huggin.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chribba
Mork&Mindy!
say, r u bookmarking this or what is this about?
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Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Originally by: Speaker Dead
Adapt or die....nuff said.
HAve you even tried to armour tank/shield tank a vagabond? OR a rapier/huggin.
No, don't fly either. But I certainly see enough of them in 0.0 that clearly people have found a way to adapt....
Corpmates use them as well, and quite effectivly. I fly Caldari, and have managed to adapt as well.
I just think it's unlikely that they will make any changes along this line, no matter how many people complain.
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Feilamya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Feilamya on 12/02/2009 23:04:36
Too late.
Nerfs are never undone. Not by CCP, not by any company running an MMO. Even if a nerf was decided years ago, and conditions that made the nerf necessary have changed since, and an un-nerf would be justified, you will never see an un-nerf. It's an unwritten law of game designers.
More likely, they might nerf the range of all modules and reduce the size of all ships while keeping their speeds the same.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Feilamya
Edited by: Feilamya on 12/02/2009 23:04:36
Too late.
Nerfs are never undone. Not by CCP, not by any company running an MMO. Even if a nerf was decided years ago, and conditions that made the nerf necessary have changed since, and an un-nerf would be justified, you will never see an un-nerf. It's an unwritten law of game designers.
More likely, they might nerf the range of all modules and reduce the size of all ships while keeping their speeds the same.
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Chi Quan
Originally by: Chribba
Mork&Mindy!
say, r u bookmarking this or what is this about?
Shazbut. I don't think he gets it, Chribba.
Oh, and thanks. You just made me feel old.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Chi Quan
Originally by: Chribba
Mork&Mindy!
say, r u bookmarking this or what is this about?
Na-nu na-nu. Mork&Mindy! 
Secure 3rd party service |
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James Malice
Gallente
Coalition Of Resolution
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ebonyivory
stuff
Simple answer: no
I would give you the long answer, but the simple one sums it up nicely. :)
Originally by: MooKids
I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
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Mal Lokrano
Gallente
Faulcon de Lazy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:55:00 -
[12]
Don't you realize that if they did this, all it would do is just get the exact opposite argument again? All this forum would have is nerf nanos over and over and over...
____________________________________________
When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always acertain the vintage of the first two. |
Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:09:00 -
[13]
oh got fly a tengu for amarr sake.
=============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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Vardemis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ebonyivory
[...]
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
If you fight a blob it is your own fault, when you let the opponent decide when you fight, you have lost the initiative already. 'Nano-ships' didn't have to commit to an engagement, which is a big difference to actually chosing between engaging or not.
One of the principles in The Art of War is to make yourself invulnerable first and then strike the opponent when is showing vulnerability, be it caused by you or something else. The 'Nano-design' was a very successful adaption of this, however it was far to easy to achieve.
Blobs are only a real threat if you hold space and play the pos game in which case 'Nano-ships' wouldn't help anyway. For everything else, there are other ways.
One of the core principles in eve is that if you want to shoot someone you have to risk something. 'Nano-ships' broke with that principle, because the risk was just not there.
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes and its about time they realised that they made a bad decision and changed it back (sorta). Being the nice person i am i highlighted the things that need changing.
When ccp started working on the nano nerf they stated that it was mostly to deal with the "ludicrous" speeds that some ships could attain (a.k.a 10km/s vagabond). OFc as i mentioned before with ccps sledgehammer policy (see minmatatr nerfs/gallente nerfs/missile nerfs) they nerfed all of nanoes so now its practically useless.
The main cause of these "ludicrous" speeds was infact implants. Despite a hg set costing several billion isk carebears did not see this as fair play (while they ratted in their untouchable officer fitted cnrs). So easily just keep the implants nerfed so its impossible to reach ludicrous speeds.
Then remove the nerf on stacking of modules effecting speed such as polycarbs and nanofibers. This will allow interceptors to actually survive more than 20 seconds and will also allow minmatar pilots to actually fly half of their ships again (vagabond,rapier,huggin).
So your probably saying why is this unerf needed. Well i could point to the factthat nanoes were **** easy to kill in the first place (or atleast scare off) but since that didnt work out inthefirst place im going to try a different route.
1.Caldari players will get back their cruise missiles (no need to keep them nerfed)
2.gallentes will get back their blasters for the same reason
3.since the nerf of nanoes the number of blobs has dramatically increased (as the only really effective counter...the nano was made useless).
So thats it basically everyone wins and minmatar actually get to fly their own ships again \0/
I hate to break it to you, but...
Last time I checked I'm still doing quite fine in my mega. I still have my blasters, but its good you care.
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SlowMovingFisherman
Minmatar
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:32:00 -
[16]
agreed, booster blasters, while at it boost damps and nerf jammers.
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Updyke
State Wh0re Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes
Yes they did.
Why
To create headroom for T3
T3 will bring nano back       
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 16:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Vardemis
Originally by: ebonyivory
[...]
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
If you fight a blob it is your own fault, when you let the opponent decide when you fight, you have lost the initiative already. 'Nano-ships' didn't have to commit to an engagement, which is a big difference to actually chosing between engaging or not.
One of the principles in The Art of War is to make yourself invulnerable first and then strike the opponent when is showing vulnerability, be it caused by you or something else. The 'Nano-design' was a very successful adaption of this, however it was far to easy to achieve.
Blobs are only a real threat if you hold space and play the pos game in which case 'Nano-ships' wouldn't help anyway. For everything else, there are other ways.
One of the core principles in eve is that if you want to shoot someone you have to risk something. 'Nano-ships' broke with that principle, because the risk was just not there.
reasons you are stupid
example 1:
You want to go out pewing with your friends in lo sec....you only have 5 friends (awww) so you fit out your ships and go a roaming. You run into a blob. You can either a) dock up/cloak/hide or b)fight and die
example 2: (pre nano nerf)
you are in a bs gang and you see a bunch of nanoes flying on grid. You can either a) remember you fit a neut and kill them/keep them out of their damage range b)uncloaked your rapier pilot and kill them c)use a suicide ceptor (hey 15 mil traded for 200+ is pretty sweet) d)not fit your ships and whine as they flit around and not break your tank at all
Nanoships risked a lot (average vaga setup costing 200mil+) and were pretty easy to kill if you knew whatyou were doing.
Blobs are only a real threat if you want to solopvp/small gang pvp/have a smaller blob. Back in nanoes they were only really a threat if you enjoyed a slugout and you had less players.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 16:26:00 -
[19]
How is utilizing superior numbers newer than beta-era tactics? |
ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
How is utilizing superior numbers newer than beta-era tactics?
WHat?
What im saying is that blobs were easier to counter with nanoes (you know following the whole no specific type of fleet should be invincible sorta thing). But then surprise surprise ccp nerfed nano and blobs are practically the only way to fly.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:05:00 -
[21]
failthread of the day
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Jaitee
Tecknotic
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:22:00 -
[22]
Why does everything have to be about PVP? Ha! stupid pirates.
It's so my Mastodon can get to warp faster without the broadsword sitting on a low sec gate to get within range to focus scram me. Haha stupid Broadsword. |
Zyck
KDS Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:23:00 -
[23]
You should go check out the speeds of the new tech 3 cruisers.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:27:00 -
[24]
nanos were overpowered. I'll miss my nano scimitar. The fact is that nanoing something nearly always made it better. Nanos should have been nerfed when the nano bs trend was snipped.
The shame is that ccp waited entirely too long before addressing the issue.
Originally by: ebonyivory
You want to go out pewing with your friends in lo sec....you only have 5 friends (awww) so you fit out your ships and go a roaming. You run into a blob. You can either a) dock up/cloak/hide or b)fight and die
And this is how it should be.
Your dream only works when the 5 friend gank squad flies nanos and the blob is in non nanos. It is a dream because it'll only work if you're in nanos and they're not. When you see most blobs flying nanos your dream won't work. 50-100 man nano fleets were not uncommon.
And your 5 friend gank squad *is* a blob against that solo domi or whatever you might run across. It is a matter of perspective.
Originally by: ebonyivory
you are in a bs gang and you see a bunch of nanoes flying on grid. You can either a) remember you fit a neut and kill them/keep them out of their damage range b)uncloaked your rapier pilot and kill them c)use a suicide ceptor (hey 15 mil traded for 200+ is pretty sweet) d)not fit your ships and whine as they flit around and not break your tank at all
Rapiers were required which was an issue. Rapiers were nano'd for a reason. Shouldn't take nanos to kill nanos nor a specific ship to be effective. Rapiers die quickly to nanos so now you need logistics or your own nanos to protect the rapiers.
Most nanos (vagas) would melt ceptors. Send a dozen ceptors after a few nanos and you'll just see a lot of small wrecks. The only way to keep the ceptors alive was with logistics. Nano logistics because the fight is going to be 100km+ from you before you know it. So now you need a few logistics ships, a dozen suicide ceptors, and some dps which is quickly outranged all to counter a few nanos. Better off to just get everyone to fly nanos and use a nano blob.
Anything not nano'd could not keep up and was a liability. Anyone not in a nano cruiser was better off usually in a nano hac/recon or something. Vaga was a superior ceptor than ceptors. Ceptors/dictors were ineffective against nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Nanoships risked a lot (average vaga setup costing 200mil+) and were pretty easy to kill if you knew whatyou were doing.
200mil isn't that much. Spending the isk on a nanoship was a superior investment then spending the isk on a battleship.
Nanos were only easy to kill when the nano pilot was a moron.
Seriously. Did you ever fight mixed groups with/against nanos using non nanos? Nanos *were* the new blob.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Crackzilla
200mil isn't that much. Spending the isk on a nanoship was a superior investment then spending the isk on a battleship.
Nanos were only easy to kill when the nano pilot was a moron.
average cost of a vagabond-200mil+ (as mentioned above
average cost of a bs fleet fitted (with neuts) 150mil
the nano can either a)flit around outside of warp disruptor range and do nothing ebcause lets face ita bs can easily tank a vagabonds dps or warp off. Or b)can get within 25km and get neuted and die horribly....
nanoes werent hard to counter in the slightest. But then just to poke holes in your idea.
A hictor/dictor is required to tackle a supercap
Dreads are required to take down large deathstar poses
There are lots of ships that are a nessecity when dealing with other ships.
Hell i suicided raptors to hold down a rapier while bses popped it (id consider that worth it since the loot alone coverd the cost of my ship).
Rapiers were not required to kill/win against a nano, heres a list.
1.Suicide ceptors
2.curses
3.pilgrims
4.anything with a large neut
5.ships with lots of tracking mods
6.other nanoes (hell you fight bses with bses dont ya)
7.pimped out light drones (lots of them)
8.falcons (stealth falcon whine)
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:45:00 -
[26]
Nerf Nano more |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:11:00 -
[27]
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:23:00 -
[28]
Speed setups are better than they ever were.
Why?
Because you're not instantly dead upon entering web range.
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249km locking? |
ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: NightmareX
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are.
Tell that to vagabond/rapier/huggin pilots (basically no one flies the rapier or huggin anymore) and the vaga can easily be pwned by just about anything.
And why shouldnt i whine im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place. If you dont make a fuss now pvp will be nerfed (again) and will be teh ****e.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:32:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 13/02/2009 19:35:49
Edited by: Crackzilla on 13/02/2009 19:33:23
Originally by: ebonyivory
average cost of a vagabond-200mil+ (as mentioned above
average cost of a bs fleet fitted (with neuts) 150mil
The vaga is much more likely to survive a fight. A better investment for the isk. We saw this with 2bil nano battleships.
Toss on a decent webber and depending on the rigs you're over 200mil for a bs.
Considering your chances of losing a bs versus nanos the nano was cheap.
Originally by: ebonyivory
the nano can either a)flit around outside of warp disruptor range and do nothing ebcause lets face ita bs can easily tank a vagabonds dps or warp off. Or b)can get within 25km and get neuted and die horribly....
Nanos rarely if ever had to switch fittings for the situation. Battleships had to carry remote reps + 1x nuet according to this plan. Plus the webs and whatever. Certainly not fleet fit. Fly a nano and you had less choices to make.
Fine. Carry a neut. You'll be tackled long enough for some ishtars and maybe a falcon to show up. Neut doesn't work when you can't target. Takes about 2x cycles of the neut to drain, so a careful pilot can get within range without risk his ship. The ishtar would tear you up.
Say you're in a small group of battleships. Can't move except as a group. Last to warp off usually is tackled and dies. Battleships can't ignore the nanos neither can they attack the nanos directly.
Nanos weren't very much solo ships. They mostly tackled then waited for more to show up. They were the blob.
Originally by: ebonyivory
A hictor/dictor is required to tackle a supercap
Dreads are required to take down large deathstar poses
A hictor made it easier as do dreads. It takes a large number of dreads to safely shoot a deathstar. Otherwise you're inviting a hostile hotdrop. If you can't get the critical number of dreads (100-150 caps + support fleet, *minimum*) then having the same players in battleships along with some logistics and command ship is a better deal. Takes longer but less isk is risked and more likely the ships will survive.
As to dictors, they're fairly cheap and disposable. If a ceptor could web at 20-30km then I would have no issues with nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Hell i suicided raptors to hold down a rapier while bses popped it (id consider that worth it since the loot alone coverd the cost of my ship).
Rapier isn't much of a threat dps wise. It took you 2x players to kill 1x. This leads to the argument that nanos forced blobing. If you had both been in nanos then it is likely you wouldn't have lost anything.
Originally by: ebonyivory
im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place.
Most of the whining was from pvp pilots that wanted to fly something other than nano.
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jam6549
Paladines
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:37:00 -
[31]
troll alert!
but if u are being serious...what? |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.13 19:42:00 -
[32]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Originally by: NightmareX
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are.
Tell that to vagabond/rapier/huggin pilots (basically no one flies the rapier or huggin anymore) and the vaga can easily be pwned by just about anything.
And why shouldnt i whine im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place. If you dont make a fuss now pvp will be nerfed (again) and will be teh ****e.
First off, i have used the Vagabond alot of times after the Nanos got nerfed.
And secondly, nanos are still fine. |
ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 20:55:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Crackzilla
The vaga is much more likely to survive a fight. A better investment for the isk. We saw this with 2bil nano battleships.
Toss on a decent webber and depending on the rigs you're over 200mil for a bs.
Considering your chances of losing a bs versus nanos the nano was cheap.
Nanos rarely if ever had to switch fittings for the situation. Battleships had to carry remote reps + 1x nuet according to this plan. Plus the webs and whatever. Certainly not fleet fit. Fly a nano and you had less choices to make.
Fine. Carry a neut. You'll be tackled long enough for some ishtars and maybe a falcon to show up. Neut doesn't work when you can't target. Takes about 2x cycles of the neut to drain, so a careful pilot can get within range without risk his ship. The ishtar would tear you up.
Say you're in a small group of battleships. Can't move except as a group. Last to warp off usually is tackled and dies. Battleships can't ignore the nanos neither can they attack the nanos directly.
Nanos weren't very much solo ships. They mostly tackled then waited for more to show up. They were the blob.
Originally by: ebonyivory
A hictor/dictor is required to tackle a supercap
Dreads are required to take down large deathstar poses
A hictor made it easier as do dreads. It takes a large number of dreads to safely shoot a deathstar. Otherwise you're inviting a hostile hotdrop. If you can't get the critical number of dreads (100-150 caps + support fleet, *minimum*) then having the same players in battleships along with some logistics and command ship is a better deal. Takes longer but less isk is risked and more likely the ships will survive.
As to dictors, they're fairly cheap and disposable. If a ceptor could web at 20-30km then I would have no issues with nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Hell i suicided raptors to hold down a rapier while bses popped it (id consider that worth it since the loot alone coverd the cost of my ship).
Rapier isn't much of a threat dps wise. It took you 2x players to kill 1x. This leads to the argument that nanos forced blobing. If you had both been in nanos then it is likely you wouldn't have lost anything.
Originally by: ebonyivory
im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place.
Most of the whining was from pvp pilots that wanted to fly something other than nano.
Why are you talking about falcons in a nano thread?
And your blaming nanoes for poor fleet cohesion?
You cant blob nanoes as effectively as you can blob other ships (too expensive) so no they werent the blob. You would get the occasional interceptor death squad (hilariousely fun to fly in) but thats it really...a nano "blob" would consist of 20-30 players (thats not a blob).
You cant tackle a supercap without a dictor/hictor (hictor in low sec) the idea was to point out that there are other ships that are required to do certain roles.
You kow how many hours it takes to take down a large pos without dreads? (its along time).
Nanoes didnt encourage blobbing if anything it was the opposite since nanoes could pick at the edges of blobs unless they gave up and went away/died.
So what pvp players wana fly something other than nano? Now they all fly bs....which is what they were flying before...soo errr yeah.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 20:55:00 -
[34]
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: ebonyivory
Originally by: NightmareX
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are.
Tell that to vagabond/rapier/huggin pilots (basically no one flies the rapier or huggin anymore) and the vaga can easily be pwned by just about anything.
And why shouldnt i whine im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place. If you dont make a fuss now pvp will be nerfed (again) and will be teh ****e.
First off, i have used the Vagabond alot of times after the Nanos got nerfed.
And secondly, nanos are still fine.
Yeah and i bet the measly tank really holds up well against the blobs that are now 80% of pvp.
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 21:02:00 -
[35]
Speed nerf dealt with **** like the ishtar and the sac that truly speed tanked, vaga came out fine because only terribad vaga pilots orbited with the mwd on while trying to actually deal dps to something.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 21:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Rennion
Speed nerf dealt with **** like the ishtar and the sac that truly speed tanked, vaga came out fine because only terribad vaga pilots orbited with the mwd on while trying to actually deal dps to something.
Vaga is not fine. Would thought that was pretty obvious. The sig radius means that missiles hit for sizeable dmage and the speed nerf itself means that turrets can track it. Since the vaga cant actually fit any real buffer tank underneath the speed its effectively crap (certainly crap compared to other ships).
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Taylor timenenzi
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Posted - 2009.02.13 21:35:00 -
[37]
OP lost their one trick poney and now has nothing to ride
:(
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 21:49:00 -
[38]
Originally by: ebonyivory
You cant blob nanoes as effectively as you can blob other ships (too expensive) so no they werent the blob. You would get the occasional interceptor death squad (hilariousely fun to fly in) but thats it really...a nano "blob" would consist of 20-30 players (thats not a blob).
A nano blob of 20-30 was very common. Nano fleets of 50-100 were not unheard of. Much easier for an fc keep a bunch of nanos moving then waiting for battleships that are falling behind.
The isk was only an issue when vagas cost like 400mil each. Otherwise at 200mil fully fitted they were one of the best deals in the game.
Originally by: ebonyivory
You cant tackle a supercap without a dictor/hictor (hictor in low sec) the idea was to point out that there are other ships that are required to do certain roles.
Very easy to ignore/bypass a supercap. Supercaps were never a risk except maybe smartbombing shuttles.
Making it not possible to get a normal tackle on a supercap was a horrible design decision. It was possible to kill them in low sec with convoluted plans. This isn't justification for another horrible design decision: nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
You kow how many hours it takes to take down a large pos without dreads? (its along time).
I've done it both ways. Takes a long time with dreads unless you've got enough of them. Dreads aren't required to shoot a pos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Nanoes didnt encourage blobbing if anything it was the opposite since nanoes could pick at the edges of blobs unless they gave up and went away/died.
Your nano fantasy gang died quickly to a larger nano blob. Since it required so many ships to counter nanos blobbing of normal ships was required. Those pilots were better served flying nanos.
Nanos only worked as described against non nanos. So everyone nano'd. Problem solved.
Originally by: ebonyivory
So what pvp players wana fly something other than nano? Now they all fly bs....which is what they were flying before...soo errr yeah.
Speed can work however it isn't an "I Win" button. We see more mixed fleets. The "nerf" worked.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Vaga is not fine. Would thought that was pretty obvious. The sig radius means that missiles hit for sizeable dmage and the speed nerf itself means that turrets can track it. Since the vaga cant actually fit any real buffer tank underneath the speed its effectively crap (certainly crap compared to other ships).
So it takes damage... like everyone else?
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 22:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Crackzilla
A nano blob of 20-30 was very common. Nano fleets of 50-100 were not unheard of. Much easier for an fc keep a bunch of nanos moving then waiting for battleships that are falling behind.
The isk was only an issue when vagas cost like 400mil each. Otherwise at 200mil fully fitted they were one of the best deals in the game.
Originally by: ebonyivory
You cant tackle a supercap without a dictor/hictor (hictor in low sec) the idea was to point out that there are other ships that are required to do certain roles.
Very easy to ignore/bypass a supercap. Supercaps were never a risk except maybe smartbombing shuttles.
Making it not possible to get a normal tackle on a supercap was a horrible design decision. It was possible to kill them in low sec with convoluted plans. This isn't justification for another horrible design decision: nanos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
You kow how many hours it takes to take down a large pos without dreads? (its along time).
I've done it both ways. Takes a long time with dreads unless you've got enough of them. Dreads aren't required to shoot a pos.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Nanoes didnt encourage blobbing if anything it was the opposite since nanoes could pick at the edges of blobs unless they gave up and went away/died.
Your nano fantasy gang died quickly to a larger nano blob. Since it required so many ships to counter nanos blobbing of normal ships was required. Those pilots were better served flying nanos.
Nanos only worked as described against non nanos. So everyone nano'd. Problem solved.
Speed can work however it isn't an "I Win" button. We see more mixed fleets. The "nerf" worked.
Statistically speaking its harder to blob with nanoes than with bses....regardless of the cost effectiveness some people simply dont have the cash or the skills. Nowadays its all just 300 man+ bs fleets smashing against each other aswell rather than the much more fluid nano roams which were more fun.
Isk is always an issue if you pvp on a regular basis. Chances are that even with your supposedly "invincible" nanoes (which werent really the case) youd sustain losses if the enemy fleet knew what they were doing.
Id like to see you ignore bypass 2 titans when they double dd your fleet.
Hictors werent really a very good idea for killing super capitals in low sec. Its another example of when players with isk get nerfed so that players without isk dont whine (see nano nerf/titan nerfs/hictors).
Dreads make it alot easier to pop a pos. You basically cannot pop a large deathstar with a bs only fleet.
My smaller nano blob could ofc run away from the larger nano blob. This leads on to my next point that nanoes discouraged blobbing because a 100man fleet wouldnt get asmany kills as the targets couldrun away (this promoting smaller gangs that they might engage).
Not everyone nanoed. A good example of this was caldari at the start of fw (responsible for most of the whines to do with nanoes) they could have fitted to fight the nanoespresented by the minmatar/gallente however instead they fitted out drakes and cruise ravens and whined when their 50mil setup wasnt pwning the 2bil plus vagabonds (with hg snakes).
You dont see mixed fleets you see.
1)bses
2)falcons
Speed doesnt work.
1)ceptors die far to easily to light drones
2)vagabonds (which are designed with speed in mind) get pwned by everything.
3)Same with rapiers and huggins
4)it wasnt an i-win button in the first place
And on to my final point. Sure everyone else takes dmaage but thengenerally speaking everyone else can fit a passable tank wether it be shield or armour. Vagabonds cant,huggins cant, ceptors sure as hell cant.
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NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.13 22:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: NightmareX on 13/02/2009 23:03:04
Originally by: ebonyivory
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: ebonyivory
Originally by: NightmareX
ebony, stop whining and play the game like we all others are doing.
Nanos are fine now as they are.
Tell that to vagabond/rapier/huggin pilots (basically no one flies the rapier or huggin anymore) and the vaga can easily be pwned by just about anything.
And why shouldnt i whine im pretty sure thats what the carebears did to get nano nerfed in the first place. If you dont make a fuss now pvp will be nerfed (again) and will be teh ****e.
First off, i have used the Vagabond alot of times after the Nanos got nerfed.
And secondly, nanos are still fine.
Yeah and i bet the measly tank really holds up well against the blobs that are now 80% of pvp.
Stupid answer is stupid.
Do you think the tank on a Nyx will last any longer to a blob?.
I have seen a Wyvern melt in like 1 min to a blob. And a Wyvern have a crap load better tank than a Nyx.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
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echohead
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:06:00 -
[41]
WTB "untouchable officer fitted cnr"
Got nothing for the post, it is just your standard boost/nerf crap.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:06:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Statistically speaking its harder to blob with nanoes than with bses....regardless of the cost effectiveness some people simply dont have the cash or the skills. Nowadays its all just 300 man+ bs fleets smashing against each other aswell rather than the much more fluid nano roams which were more fun.
In a large fleet lag fest yes battleships are slightly better. Even in the fleet fight getting to the fight and geting out nanos are better. Nanos only suffer when you disconnect or have a few minutes mod lag and the hostile pod decides to lock your nano.
Take away the lag and in any other cases nanos are better.
The issue with skills and isk is serious. This is also part of the group that whined about nanos. I fought nanos before I had the skills and isk and it sucked. Nanos worked to exclude those with skillpoints and isk.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Isk is always an issue if you pvp on a regular basis. Chances are that even with your supposedly "invincible" nanoes (which werent really the case) youd sustain losses if the enemy fleet knew what they were doing.
Even looking for fights it takes a while before you pop. Run 2x clients with one grinding isk and another out roaming in a gang with nanos. The ability to make isk far exceeded what I lost with the nano. With a couple of good hauler drops I made enough from dropped towers and bpo sets to pay for my losses.
Nanos were cheap.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Id like to see you ignore bypass 2 titans when they double dd your fleet.
Nano'd I'd warp out before either dd went off.
In a battleship I'd likely die.
I mostly flew dictors in large fleet fests like this. See a titan, warp to a spot 300km off, warp back to a wreck, bubble, warp off to something else on grid.
Given a choice between flying a battleship or a prenerfed nano in such a fight I would take nano every day.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Its another example of when players with isk get nerfed so that players without isk dont whine
Isk should give a wealthy player an edge, not an entirely new game.
Originally by: ebonyivory
My smaller nano blob could ofc run away from the larger nano blob. This leads on to my next point that nanoes discouraged blobbing because a 100man fleet wouldnt get asmany kills as the targets couldrun away (this promoting smaller gangs that they might engage).
Only nanos could effectively outrun a 100man non nano fleet. So the 100man fleet started to contain a large percentage of nanos. Both used scouts and tacklers to find stuff to kill. The difference was that a nano gang could go after anything while a non nano gang was mostly restricted to non nanos.
Smaller nano groups whined and they themselves figured out the only solution was to bring more numbers. More blobbing.
Originally by: ebonyivory
caldari at the start of fw
Caldari simply saw what everyone else saw in 0.0.
Originally by: ebonyivory
Speed doesnt work.
1)ceptors die far to easily to light drones
2)vagabonds (which are designed with speed in mind) get pwned by everything.
3)Same with rapiers and huggins
4)it wasnt an i-win button in the first place
I also argued that the nerf was a bit too much. *shrug* Either way something had to be done. *Hugs useless Rapier*
Originally by: ebonyivory
everyone else can fit a passable tank wether it be shield or armour. Vagabonds cant,huggins cant, ceptors sure as hell cant.
Speed was by far the best tank. It avoided most damage.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:09:00 -
[43]
Yes but then a wyvern can tank a huge amount of dps anyways. A vagabond cant (speed wont absorb damage and your buffer wont stand up to assualt frigate dps).
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:11:00 -
[44]
yes nano is no ****ed right now why do I see and participate in nano gangs every week?
adapt, or WoW is ---> way
Please, jump into traffic
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Taylor timenenzi
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:20:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gonada
yes nano is no ****ed right now why do I see and participate in nano gangs every week?
adapt, or WoW is ---> way
Funny thats what defender of nanos said when people wanted them changed.
It must suck to be on the other side of the fence these days. |
ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:36:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Gonada
yes nano is no ****ed right now why do I see and participate in nano gangs every week?
adapt, or WoW is ---> way
Yeah right. Id like to see some actual proof of your "nano gang" sizing up to an equal force and winning.
Your nano gang must contain at least some vagabonds.
And this thread has been slightly derailed. i Was hoping to focus on the fact that nanoes are currently teh **** and needto be buffed (not nessecarily back to pre-w/e patch) just make them actually useful again.
Either that or make it so that nano designed ships can actually tank. Eithers fine
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Taylor timenenzi
Originally by: Gonada
yes nano is no ****ed right now why do I see and participate in nano gangs every week?
adapt, or WoW is ---> way
Funny thats what defender of nanos said when people wanted them changed.
It must suck to be on the other side of the fence these days.
Only difference is that the carebears could adapt but just chose not too. Now vagabonds are usless as well as rapiers and huggins. Nuff said really.
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:38:00 -
[48]
says who?
ohh ya, some guy who is too afraid to post with his main?
you sure your not a goon?
Please, jump into traffic
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:41:00 -
[49]
Edited by: ebonyivory on 13/02/2009 23:41:39
Originally by: Gonada
says who?
ohh ya, some guy who is too afraid to post with his main?
you sure your not a goon?
My main is currently "occupied".
Besides your in atlas wtf do you know about pvp.
edit: still waitin on that proof btw
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el Sabor
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:48:00 -
[50]
I see lots of minmatar recons and vagas being flown very effectively. All the speed changes did was make sure nano ships were not invulnerable. Speed tanked curse can still cause havoc as ever.
Stop whining and try flying your ships properly! My interceptors are all still doing absolutely fine with some minor tweaks to the set up and flying style.
I do think a lot of these "nerfs" are just interesting changes. For example missiles still work fine if people would swap one or two modules around and used their brains.
I'm happy the nerf this and that, keeps the game from becoming stagnant and keeps me on my toes!
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Apolluon
Gallente
No Limit Productions
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.14 00:21:00 -
[51]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes and its about time they realised that they made a bad decision and changed it back (sorta). Being the nice person i am i highlighted the things that need changing.
When ccp started working on the nano nerf they stated that it was mostly to deal with the "ludicrous" speeds that some ships could attain (a.k.a 10km/s vagabond). OFc as i mentioned before with ccps sledgehammer policy (see minmatatr nerfs/gallente nerfs/missile nerfs) they nerfed all of nanoes so now its practically useless.
The main cause of these "ludicrous" speeds was infact implants. Despite a hg set costing several billion isk carebears did not see this as fair play (while they ratted in their untouchable officer fitted cnrs). So easily just keep the implants nerfed so its impossible to reach ludicrous speeds.
Then remove the nerf on stacking of modules effecting speed such as polycarbs and nanofibers. This will allow interceptors to actually survive more than 20 seconds and will also allow minmatar pilots to actually fly half of their ships again (vagabond,rapier,huggin).
So your probably saying why is this unerf needed. Well i could point to the factthat nanoes were **** easy to kill in the first place (or atleast scare off) but since that didnt work out inthefirst place im going to try a different route.
1.Caldari players will get back their cruise missiles (no need to keep them nerfed)
2.gallentes will get back their blasters for the same reason
3.since the nerf of nanoes the number of blobs has dramatically increased (as the only really effective counter...the nano was made useless).
So thats it basically everyone wins and minmatar actually get to fly their own ships again \0/
QQ more, the reason that nanos were nerfed is a good reason, because there was NO counter to them, except to be a nano, thats why they get nerfed, thats why they need to STAY NERFED. Adapt or quit.
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Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.14 01:36:00 -
[52]
I liked things pre-QR just fine. Post QR I like things even better.
PVP was fun and viable in both environments. The *****ing doesn't stop no matter what though.
Look we have opposite opinions, would be awesome if the forums balanced things and deleted both our posts.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.14 08:38:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Apolluon
Originally by: ebonyivory
Simple really ccp sledgehammer nerfed nanoes and its about time they realised that they made a bad decision and changed it back (sorta). Being the nice person i am i highlighted the things that need changing.
When ccp started working on the nano nerf they stated that it was mostly to deal with the "ludicrous" speeds that some ships could attain (a.k.a 10km/s vagabond). OFc as i mentioned before with ccps sledgehammer policy (see minmatatr nerfs/gallente nerfs/missile nerfs) they nerfed all of nanoes so now its practically useless.
The main cause of these "ludicrous" speeds was infact implants. Despite a hg set costing several billion isk carebears did not see this as fair play (while they ratted in their untouchable officer fitted cnrs). So easily just keep the implants nerfed so its impossible to reach ludicrous speeds.
Then remove the nerf on stacking of modules effecting speed such as polycarbs and nanofibers. This will allow interceptors to actually survive more than 20 seconds and will also allow minmatar pilots to actually fly half of their ships again (vagabond,rapier,huggin).
So your probably saying why is this unerf needed. Well i could point to the factthat nanoes were **** easy to kill in the first place (or atleast scare off) but since that didnt work out inthefirst place im going to try a different route.
1.Caldari players will get back their cruise missiles (no need to keep them nerfed)
2.gallentes will get back their blasters for the same reason
3.since the nerf of nanoes the number of blobs has dramatically increased (as the only really effective counter...the nano was made useless).
So thats it basically everyone wins and minmatar actually get to fly their own ships again \0/
QQ more, the reason that nanos were nerfed is a good reason, because there was NO counter to them, except to be a nano, thats why they get nerfed, thats why they need to STAY NERFED. Adapt or quit.
counters to nano:
neuts/nos (pre nerf)
ceptors
huggin/rapier
tracking computers
light drones
webs
tanking your ship
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: ebonyivory
neuts/nos (pre nerf)
tracking computers
So how do you figure on fitting a heavy neut/nos on anything but a battleship? Nothing else has the range except a curse (nano, *cough*)/pilgrim.
So a tracking computer. Still would need blasters and a few tracking computers to get anywhere. In general a hurricane would get better dps on a nano, but oh wait, it can't fit a heavy neut.
Originally by: ebonyivory
ceptors
huggin/rapier
It took speed to counter speed. Those ceptor pilots would be better off in a vaga. A nano huggin/rapier worked. Nano gangs often traveled with rapiers of their own.
The trouble was that often the rapiers would uncloak and you might get a single hostile nano before they would flee. Nano gangs excelled at their ability to limit losses.
Originally by: ebonyivory
light drones
Against ships with 9k+ of a shield buffer and good resists (vaga)? Are you serious? Light drones?
Lets assume that the light drone damage can possibly threaten a pre qr nano. Have you forgotten that due to tracking and mwd pulse/follow a light drone would never properly follow a nano?
Originally by: ebonyivory
webs
The only thing that gets within 10km is a deimos. Thats a ship that doesn't nano. For everything else you'd need a faction domi webber, gang buffers, overloading, and luck.
Against a bad nano pilot a very experienced player *might* be able to get a web on with just overloading etc. Generally unlikely that the nano gets close enough.
Originally by: ebonyivory
tanking your ship
Yes, fly a speed tank. At the time it was the best tank in the game. Otherwise with the best armor/shield tank you'll be tackled until more hostiles arrive. More likely that "tank" you speak of just delays you getting popped.
Speed tank was *the* best tank of the game.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:46:00 -
[55]
Things are not omg omg all lost as some put. But I still think some more fine tunning with time could be useful.
I still think the speed modifier of speed mods is too low now. Compare how much you gain from a speed mod against a tank mod. In other words. A speed mod ed ships is not as much faster than a non focused one as a tank focused one is more tanky than a focused one.
Also now there is almsot nothign useful to put on low slots and rig slots of small fast ships. I would have kept polycarbons as mass reduction, but only at 5% level. That woudl stil keep POSSIBILITES, VARIABLES in game. But would be enough of a nerf. The current possibilities are mostly very limited. I personnally would like a bit more variety. |
Chronos VIII
Amarr
Malevolent Evolution
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:57:00 -
[56]
No thank you, nano nerf was the best decision made in like 5 years of eve
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:02:00 -
[57]
Anyways stop sidetracking me i do admit that nanoes were a "tad" overpowered however that doesnt excuse what ccp did to them.
Its the equivilant of removing a repper from an armour tanking ship.
Alls im asking is that ccp fix it so that huggins/rapiers are actually useful and that vagas can actually pvp without dying horribly to everything.
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dor amwar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:06:00 -
[58]
hey .... psst .... t3. but don't tell anyone i told ya.
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:29:00 -
[59]
Originally by: dor amwar
hey .... psst .... t3. but don't tell anyone i told ya.
Indeed. But then i guess ccp will nerf it when carebears whine that their 50mil drakes cant compete with 1bil+ ships (depending on how crazy the prices are).
Also that untouchable officer fit cnr (with added faction mods) :
Hi's
7xCaldari Navy Cruises
1xw/e
Medium's
1x x-large Dg shield booster
3xhardeners
1x shield boost amp
1x cap mod
low's
3x cn bcu
1x dcu
1x w/e
Thats untouchable (mission wise) and untouchable suicide gank wise if you stick near the high of of hi sec.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.14 22:17:00 -
[60]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Alls im asking is that ccp fix it so that huggins/rapiers are actually useful and that vagas can actually pvp without dying horribly to everything.
Right after they make every other recon (other than the falcon) useful again. The solution for the huginn/rapier likely isn't in giving it more speed but in a boost to the web percentage.
The vaga was designed to trade speed for dps/tank. It should die to most everything unless used in hit and runs or in packs. The vaga is a niche ship just like many other hacs (ie muninn).
Originally by: ebonyivory
Thats untouchable (mission wise) and untouchable suicide gank wise if you stick near the high of of hi sec.
If it had more officer gear it might be worth a suicide gank. Freighters have been suicide ganked. That officer fit cnr doesn't have a chance if someone wants to pop it.
Without concord protection that cnr is going to be an easy kill for someone.
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Galan Amarias
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.15 01:37:00 -
[61]
Originally by: ebonyivory
Anyways stop sidetracking me i do admit that nanoes were a "tad" overpowered however that doesnt excuse what ccp did to them.
Its the equivilant of removing a repper from an armour tanking ship.
Alls im asking is that ccp fix it so that huggins/rapiers are actually useful and that vagas can actually pvp without dying horribly to everything.
Nano had it coming.
Your hictor/mother ship argument is crap. All races have hictors all races have motherships. The amarr and caldari could not compete on nano.
One of my best pvp bs is a armor tanked geddon with no repper. Pure sponge and evil DPS. Mind you any nano anything could kill it, thus proof that nano had it coming
-Galan
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JimBob Leeroy
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:48:00 -
[62]
ok,
with most any ship, there is a set hull speed.
once reached it takes incredible power to increase speed.
and damage becomes a problem.
so if you made all hulls with a set hull speed, and able to overheat basicly.
then you would not need a nano nerf, the over stacking of mods,rigs, and drugs would not help.
and you would (if you had them) be able to use these over stacked mods..., but would take hull damage in the process.
witch gives the option, but with severe consequences.
this stops a bs from being faster than a well set up cepter.
but allows a bs to overload the hull to close range at the expense of hull hp.
hope this is helpful suggestion for you.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.02.15 08:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: ebonyivory
The reasonwould be that blobs are now the only effective way to fight and thats bad? Why do developers have to be so stupid >.>
How exactly is/was a 30 men nano gang not a blob?
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
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