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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
LittleTerror
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Posted - 2011.08.10 21:45:00 -
[1]
At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game... |
mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2011.08.10 21:54:00 -
[2]
In 0.0 you use bubbles obviously...
In lowsec you can catch anything above cruiser size easily with the proper ship.
Remember instas? Do you really want those back? A 50km from gate BM ban wouldn't stop instas, you would have to ban BMs 100km around the gate to stop instas, which is obviously a terrible thing to do.
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.10 21:56:00 -
[3]
So your intention is to have people leave the game as per point 3.
No.
Pirates adapted very quickly to the changes warp to zero introduced. Reverting to warp to 15 alongside modern innovations in catching pilots at gates would make travel through any camp suicidal; especially with bookmark nerfing. Even if your no bm's 50km from gate can still accommodate bookmarking all that does is reintroduce the bookmarking issues CCP worked hard to get around by setting warp to zero in the first place.
Looking at your other posts so far you are just a worthless troll but I have answered for the benefit of the doubt.
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Narisa Bithon
Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:08:00 -
[4]
u not managed to tackle a freighter or something?
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LittleTerror
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:26:00 -
[5]
The game was fine before warp to 0 in fact it was a better game, no i don't want instas so a ban on bookmarks on the same grid as gate would be good.
You wanna spy on a gate from 250km away then fly the distance... |
Lazarus Longe
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:28:00 -
[6]
Bravo, I support your idea, or at least your way of thinking.
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Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:36:00 -
[7]
Here we go again.
NO.
Not just no, but no because game mechanics shouldn't be changed every time someone's "get rich quick" or "pad my killboard" plan fails. |
LittleTerror
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dub Step So your intention is to have people leave the game as per point 3.
No.
Pirates adapted very quickly to the changes warp to zero introduced. Reverting to warp to 15 alongside modern innovations in catching pilots at gates would make travel through any camp suicidal; especially with bookmark nerfing. Even if your no bm's 50km from gate can still accommodate bookmarking all that does is reintroduce the bookmarking issues CCP worked hard to get around by setting warp to zero in the first place.
Looking at your other posts so far you are just a worthless troll but I have answered for the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not a worthless troll i'm a bitter vet, if you want to move through space you should use your crop or alliance as eyes not an alt account or abuse of the current system of warp to anything at 0.
You're a just a noob that quite obviously never played eve on hard mode like the rest of us, it is al too easy for you to replace a ship or what ever it is you lose, the prices of everything are a their lowest levels so the game almost has no point at all and it has become stale and boring...
Originally by: Narisa Bithon u not managed to tackle a freighter or something?
shut up, obviously a freighter is easy to catch but that freighter should have at least 10 battleships escorting it and not just a second account for eyes, it should be a real pain in the arse to move stuff so that an opposing force can prevent it from ever getting to its destination. At the moment its super easy for people to move stuff around and almost impossible for an opposing force to intercept supply routes.. |
Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:48:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ceelah on 10/08/2011 22:48:06 You've been around since, what... 2004? You of all people should know about, and use to full advantage, bubbles and interdictors. If you don't know what they are, then I hope you got a bargain on your toon in the "bizarre".
Every time CCP "tweaks" (aka - nerfs) something in game it ends up messing up a whole lot of other things. I can dig being bored, but honestly, there are ways to do what you want to do without changing the game for everyone else.
Sorry, not what you want to hear but it is what it is. |
Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.08.10 22:49:00 -
[10]
Drag.
Bubble.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:05:00 -
[11]
Have 2 fast lockers on both sides of the gate with a DPS support ship or two. Each time the victim target appears, lock him/her up and put point him/her. If the victim target is smart, he/she will try to burn back to the gate and jump back through... where your other fast locker is waiting. Continue playing this lovely game of "Ping Pong" until the victim target runs out of HP, gets tired, tries to make a run for it, and/or aggresses. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:05:00 -
[12]
Hey guys, remember the days when we had 105723098532 bookmarks for insta warps on gates?
Remember how when we copied them all for corp mates, and when more than 10 people did this at the same time the server crashed repeatedly cause it couldnt handle the copying of bookmarks that much?
Yeah, op wants to bring back those days of server crashes.
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Ratling Saraki
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:07:00 -
[13]
OP, seriously, as an extremely bitter vet, the best bet for you would be not to create a petition for your 'plan', but to set up personal contracts to Ratling Saraki for all of your stuff. Also, send the contents of your wallet before you go to account settings and unsub your accounts.
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fgft Athonille
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:09:00 -
[14]
this game only gets easier for carebear scrubs and whiners. never harder
wont ever happen
Originally by: Skippermonkey keep trying and you can be an hero just like fgft Athonille
Originally by: Singeaboot Raj Tbh i am beginning to see the win - it's the haircut, makes people take notice.
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Alyssa Yotosala
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:10:00 -
[15]
No, dont give your stuff to him, I need it more.
Can I PLEASE have your stuffz?
I was polite, so deserve your stuffz more.
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Scalphunter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:23:00 -
[16]
like the good old days in PC eh mate!
imagine the tears with all the whiners eve has these days, love it to happen just for that.
good to see ya again anyway
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Sharon Anne
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:37:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Sharon Anne on 10/08/2011 23:37:33 I would like the AB mods to turn on when in auto pilot when I approach the gate. Now that would be nice!
The general epidemic of rectal-cranial inversion |
Wascal
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: fgft Athonille this game only gets easier for carebear scrubs and whiners. never harder
wont ever happen
Your post makes me wanna BAWL!
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LittleTerror
Originally by: Dub Step So your intention is to have people leave the game as per point 3.
No.
Pirates adapted very quickly to the changes warp to zero introduced. Reverting to warp to 15 alongside modern innovations in catching pilots at gates would make travel through any camp suicidal; especially with bookmark nerfing. Even if your no bm's 50km from gate can still accommodate bookmarking all that does is reintroduce the bookmarking issues CCP worked hard to get around by setting warp to zero in the first place.
Looking at your other posts so far you are just a worthless troll but I have answered for the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not a worthless troll i'm a bitter vet, if you want to move through space you should use your crop or alliance as eyes not an alt account or abuse of the current system of warp to anything at 0.
You're a just a noob that quite obviously never played eve on hard mode like the rest of us, it is al too easy for you to replace a ship or what ever it is you lose, the prices of everything are a their lowest levels so the game almost has no point at all and it has become stale and boring...
So from what I said you assume I haven't played since pre WTZ? Well done.
Not only are you too incompetent to use bubbles or catch people on the outbound, you wish to completely remove solo play and force people out of the sandbox and into the blobs.
If you want a return to oldschool methods go support some of the arguments about the death of sniping rather than wanting an easy gank mode because your fleet composition is too bad at gate camping (which really isn't difficult).
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Uuali
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:50:00 -
[20]
Yes, please help CCP help themselves to lose more new customers and therefore stop development of this game sooner than it's already happening.
More MT and no warp to zero just ought to do it!
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.11 07:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: LittleTerror Gais this game is hard nao I can't do it no more QQ
translated the OP for clarity.
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Karia Sur
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Posted - 2011.08.11 08:14:00 -
[22]
I will sign the petition when it is modified to include the following:- gate guns should be added to null which instapop any camps who cant be bothered to find pvp and have to have everything delivered to them on a plate like mom used to do.
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Spookyjay
Caldari Animosity.
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Posted - 2011.08.11 08:17:00 -
[23]
im pro 15km warp in as long as it comes with the much needed bubble nerf.
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Vengence Viper
Minmatar The Ostrogoths
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Posted - 2011.08.11 10:22:00 -
[24]
Im thinking OP is either noob at gate camping or totally fails to adapt to new tactics.
PvP IS not supposed to be easy, neither for hunter or prey. By giving either will give unfair advantage and disrupt game mechanics.
There are corperation / Alliances that are extreamly good at gate camping, regardless whether its 0.0 or Low-Sec, and they most certainly dont need "removing warp to 0" to keep up there KB stats. |
Pod Liberator
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Posted - 2011.08.11 10:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: LittleTerror
Originally by: Narisa Bithon u not managed to tackle a freighter or something?
shut up!
Clearly a Charon slipped through.
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Kunming
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2011.08.11 10:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
Doesnt need to be all that fancy either.. Just make planets, gates, everything orbit the sun, as it should be tbh, that way BM sets will be useful maybe once in 2 years, if u know what I mean.
Make warping points dynamic this way.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.11 11:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
Quoting someone who fails as a pirate.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.11 11:55:00 -
[28]
This was a rather hot topic back in the day and I recall the screams of "carebears win" being shouted on the forums in a chorus but in the end the effect only really impacted people who where pirates in easy mode and had no business being pirates. Sitting around gates waiting for someone to come through requiring nothing more from them than a couple of friends and a bit of luck that someone they can actually defeat comes through.
It wasn't tactical and it required zero skill. If you refered to yourself as a pirate by having any succes with that I'm sorry to say but you are a joke. That was one of the dumbess mechanics that ever existed.
Today piracy is a respected profession thanks to the fact that not everyone is smart enough to do. Today's pirates have to work for their kills.
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Alissa Solette
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:06:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Alissa Solette on 11/08/2011 12:16:55 While I don't find catching things all that hard (in 0.0) I'd still very much welcome the removal of warp to zero (and prevention of a new wave of insta-warp bookmarks at the same time).
I play this game for PVP and any change that gives me more targets (and makes it harder for carebear pussies to split and run) is a good change in my eyes.
If the highsec bears get their panties all bunched up over this then I guess you could always leave warp to 0 in place in highsec and only remove it in lowsec and 0.0.
In short: /signed
Edit:
Quote: Today piracy is a respected profession thanks to the fact that not everyone is smart enough to do. Today's pirates have to work for their kills.
Do we play the same game? You heard about anchorable bubbles, disctors and HICs tho, no?
Before those existed being a pirate required a lot more skill/effort then it does now (independently of warp to 0 or warp to 15).
I don't see what would change for an "organized" camp. The only difference is that the chance of random PVP on gates would be massively increased (which of course is also good for the pirates but also for anyone else who wants PVP and not WOW in space).
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Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
Gate camping is really easy to do. It looks like you're a bit fail at it.
Sorry for your loss -------
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:13:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 11/08/2011 12:13:13
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk Hey guys, remember the days when we had 105723098532 bookmarks for insta warps on gates?
Remember how when we copied them all for corp mates, and when more than 10 people did this at the same time the server crashed repeatedly cause it couldnt handle the copying of bookmarks that much?
Yeah, op wants to bring back those days of server crashes.
Actually we crashed our wspace system the other day cause we had a can of 500+ old bookmarks someone tried to load(****s and giggle can).
Yea, bm system is still LOL broken/slow.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:18:00 -
[32]
Wow! Who'd have thought there were lazy/inept pirates in Eve!
Originally by: mechtech ...In lowsec ...
In lowsec only the Dramiel is 100% safe when travelling, but that is changing
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Cunane Jeran
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: LittleTerror 1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates.
Someone doesn't quite understand how instas use to work it seems.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:49:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Thornat on 11/08/2011 12:51:30 Edited by: Thornat on 11/08/2011 12:50:08
Originally by: Alissa Solette Edited by: Alissa Solette on 11/08/2011 12:19:56 Edited by: Alissa Solette on 11/08/2011 12:16:55 While I don't find catching things all that hard (in 0.0) I'd still very much welcome the removal of warp to zero (and prevention of a new wave of insta-warp bookmarks at the same time).
I play this game for PVP and any change that gives me more targets (and makes it harder for carebear pussies to split and run) is a good change in my eyes.
If the highsec bears get their panties all bunched up over this then I guess you could always leave warp to 0 in place in highsec and only remove it in lowsec and 0.0.
In short: /signed
Edit:
Quote: Today piracy is a respected profession thanks to the fact that not everyone is smart enough to do. Today's pirates have to work for their kills.
Do we play the same game? You heard about anchorable bubbles, disctors and HICs tho, no?
Before those existed being a pirate required a lot more skill/effort then it does now (independently of warp to 0 or warp to 15).
I don't see what would change for an "organized" camp. The only difference is that the chance of random PVP on gates would be massively increased (which of course is also good for the pirates but also for anyone else who wants PVP and not WOW in space).
So: - Remove JFs - Remove JBs - Remove titan bridges for the purpose of logistics - Remove Warp to Zero
Result: - All traffic has to move through 0.0 again and not via cyno chains - 0.0 gets a lot more "difficult" and not just a second place for the highsec bears to go bot/farm - Amount of PVP is increased (especially for small gangs)
Thats the point I'm making. You have to organize your players, bring certain types of ships, set up an operation and execute. These are all game mechanics that when put together form strategies that work.
Bring back warp to 15k and removing bookmarks invalidates those strategies because they are no longer needed, all you need is a bunch of guys sitting on a gate waiting for someone to come through.
I didn't say it was hard or impossible, it just requires organization and team play, most importantly however its not handed to you on a silver platter you have to plan it all out. By so doing it opens you up to your own risks as a pirate.
So I stand by what I said, the mechanic right now for piracy works very well and I don't see any reason to revert to an outdated, none mechanic that did very little but remove strategy from the pirate equation.
EDIT: Just our of curiousity what other tactic was required besides standing on a gate and waiting for a newb to come through was required before warp to 0 exactly? I don't recall anything required outside of a bit of salt over the back and four leaf clover on my desk hoping someone is stupid enough to come through the gate.
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Krakaan Byzantia
Gallente Bolt Action Drive by The Imperial Senate
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Posted - 2011.08.11 18:33:00 -
[35]
Good job op I see your post and raise you TROLOLOLOL
Well played sir.
As for actual content to make the mods happy.
Dumb idea, blah blah blah Warp to 15 was fun but good luck traversing highsec, blah blah blah. -------------------------------------------------- This world is kill or be killed never forget it. |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar Fleet of Doom RaVeN Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 08:41:00 -
[36]
database can't handle all the bookmarks :(
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Geraldina Devuex
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Posted - 2011.08.12 09:07:00 -
[37]
I made billions selling insta bookmark sets on escrow.
So er... yeah bring back 15km!
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Kunming
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2011.08.12 09:37:00 -
[38]
BMs for insta jump will be non-existant with moving/orbiting celestial bodies.
Planets should orbit the sun, gates, stations and moons the planets, etc.
Then bring back warp to 15km.. voila, better EVE!
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:14:00 -
[39]
Hey guys, thought I'd step in here with some info on the subject.
As has been mentioned, the reason for WTZ being introduced was the epic proliferation of WTZ bookmarks copied all over the database causing lockups on both clients and servers alike. Feel free to blame me for that as I was involved in some areas of that project and am quite used to being scolded by people I don't know. But as it stands the bookmark system is still in dire need of "refactoring" before anything like this could be reintroduced.
But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.
So after reading this yesterday I poked a bit around. I haven't completed said poking but so far I'm gathering that there is no new game design for any new bookmark system and before we have a new one the old code will not be touched as it needs to be deprecated, not refactor, as I touched on above. I'd love to make up for my part in this by solving the initial problem with a technical overhaul but for that we need a new game design. To get a new design we need resources and they are not available in the short term. I wouldn't want to rush anything so the short term was always out of the picture anyways.
Now, it's imperative that you understand that I'm a programmer and not in any position to decide on our roadmap or resource allocation. I'm just looking for a fun project I could get into at some point in the future if there's any excitement about it in the first place. And of course I cannot even promise that it would reintroduce 15Km warps. But I've been here for almost five years now and a whole lot of people owe me beers for favours that they've never ponied up.. so who knows?
At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text.
~ CCP Prism X EVE Database Developer If anything in this post was informative or could be considered as 'good news' to you - chances are you've misread it. |
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catinboots
Minmatar Vintage heavy industries
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:22:00 -
[40]
Edited by: catinboots on 12/08/2011 10:24:30 So let me see with my industrial account on my weekly shopping trip to jita flying a charon it takes me between 30 and 40 minutes to get there flying manual, more than enough time to do some bookkeeping and study the markets Afk autopiloting (15k warp ) it takes me 3 hours one way knowing on average i play only 1 to 2 hours a day
Short respond NOWAY
Wonders who the lucky freighter pilot was you couldn t catch ________________________________________ Minmatar are like jedi knights, we use ductape as our force, it has a darkside and a sticky side
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:27:00 -
[41]
OP obviously want to return to the age where you didn't go into a region without having first copied the related 500-1500 bookmarks. And the evenings of doing nothing but copy thousands of BM. And the infamous lag-inducing BM bombs.
I don't. ------------------------------------------
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Lester Knight Chaykin
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:35:00 -
[42]
Facts:
OP is a noob, reintroducing warp to 15km would not solve any problem, better, there is no problem at all, reintroducing 15km warp in would simply change nothing in the gameplay, it would just cause more lag becouse everyone and his grandmother would start taking wtz bm's again and that is not funny at all.
OP, learn to play, there are other ways to catch people, you are simply failing at it.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:38:00 -
[43]
There are really higher priorities right now then touching the WTZ subject again. While it was controversial subject in 2006 the only ones complaining are just lazy pirate-wannabes like the OP.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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TharOkha
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:42:00 -
[44]
2004 char failing in gatecamping
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Liner Xiandra
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.
Well, apparantly Team BFF was working on the bookmarks thing a bit, like having them available on overview; it was scheduled for a late Incursion patch I believe, but was (like so many other good things) pulled/postponed at the last moment.
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Agent 42
Gallente RADIO RAMPAGE
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:52:00 -
[46]
A better solution would be to have people jump 20 km away from gate in the system they jump into, so burning back to gate would take longer.
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Salpun
Gallente Paramount Commerce
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:05:00 -
[47]
+1 on a new bookmark system
Waiting for a team BFF post
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:07:00 -
[48]
I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
~ CCP Prism X EVE Database Developer If anything in this post was informative or could be considered as 'good news' to you - chances are you've misread it. |
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Hidden Phantom
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:13:00 -
[49]
Your asking for a pirates life to be handed to them on a silver platter. A pirates life should not be easy.
When I joined gangs to hunt pirates, the pirates ran like little girls because they dont like taking risks and will only take on fights they think they can win.
Reality is this game is based a long way in the future. We already have the ability to map to the nearest millimeter yet you think that they wont have the ability to land a ship within range of a given destination? |
Velicitia
Gallente Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:31:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
buff hybrids
on topic:
WTZ is nice, and slow-boating 15km in a freighter sucks.
We'd need something other than bookmarks though (or a seriously better system for making/trading/organising them) =========================
Originally by: CCP Games, 2010 Creation is so precious; and greed, so destructive. Your choices can make a diference
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Magnus Veyr
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:34:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Magnus Veyr on 12/08/2011 11:34:48 Prime example of a good DEVpost; it doesn't have to give us stuff but it's factual, informative and no bull****ting.
And to actually give feedback; WTZ is the only logical solution if the other option is 15km, so if you want to give WTZ a rethink there'll have to be another answer because only people who really want 15km warp are low-effort gankers, nothing wrong with that at all but it would make travel in low sec even MORE of a hassle. There's 2 ways of looking at it; increase the difficulty so with the current numbers gatecampers get more "customers". OR, increase the usefulness of low sec to the average player, increasing traffic and thus campers get more customers. The latter is very much the way to go. So from a camping POV; don't touch WTZ because that removes the urgency (as if it helps) for fixing low sec.
Actually I do believe WTZ in itself is fine, we just need batter ways to handle bookmarks. If you look at the fitting browser interface I really do believe that is the way to go. Importing/exporting a whole group of BMs, being able to have corp BM. Stuff like that.
TL;DR, WTZ is fine, if you change that it changes a whole lot of things making low sec even more of a problem so it'll be even more empty. Look at how fittings are handled and somehow make something similar for BMs.
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
buff hybrids
on topic:
WTZ is nice, and slow-boating 15km in a freighter sucks.
We'd need something other than bookmarks though (or a seriously better system for making/trading/organising them)
I don't understand why a bookmark is an actual THING... Eg, an object that goes into your hangar, to be shared around.
Surely it would make more sense if it was just a solarsystemID and 3 coordinate numbers... Eg, (system, x, y, z), which could easily be formatted to a string (and parsed back) and then passed around in chat channels. (Or better yet, some kind of fleet tactics tools, which work as 3d collaborative map and solarsystem "views" allowing fleet commanders to put up notes and diagrams on the map and in space in real time).
For the coders: think struct (or value type) rather than class (or reference type). ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:45:00 -
[53]
Don't touch the current bookmark system because you will only stuff it up.
Reintroducing inconvenience for the sake of it is counter-intuitive. Having a warp accuracy (landing you 0-#km randomly) for different ship types may be interesting, but you'd need more methods to mitigate the nuisance of it too.
Bookmarks will never be intuitive regarding roleplay since for example we possess far better technology (GPS) on our mobile phones than these advanced starships have for communicating with eachother (stone tablets).
A bookmarking fix might mean everyone can click any spot in space or in the map, bookmark it, send instantly to friends and enable them warp to it. This may be achievable technologically in eve, and intuitive but it also renders a lot of existing gameplay obsolete.
I'd be a lot happier flying my Gallente blaster ships knowing I'd always be able to warp to 0km on my targets, but there's probably better ways of buffing Gallente. Cheers.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:49:00 -
[54]
15km warp-in bored the arse off just about everyone when it was in-game. Mind-numbing tedium and it REALLY doesn't need to make a reappearance.
For some variability you could have a nav skill which increases the chance of WTZ. Eg "Warp Precision" decreases the variability of warps by 2% per level - that and a base 10% chance of ending up out of jump range would mean you'd have 2% chance of not WTZ with "Warp Precision V". So two out of a hundred warps would result in extra travel - that would be fine but the one thing Eve needs like a hole in the head is yet another pointless time sink, which is what warping to 15km is.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:50:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 12/08/2011 11:58:55
Originally by: CCP Prism X (I) am quite used to being scolded by people I don't know
*I* love you, don't worry.
As for the current bookmark system, as I understand it (from a lolRP perspective anyway) is that your warp drive has to lock onto the gravity well of a destination before it can warp there. This is kind of how anchored bubbles work; they confuse the hell out of your navigation computer and make it lock onto the wrong gravity well. So with that in mind, it makes sense that someone would have to actually be present in space at a location to make a bookmark of it, perhaps by dropping some invisible techno-McGuffin to create an artificial gravity well and noting the location thereof.
The method of prolifertaing this bookmark (i.e. the "stone tablet") does needs to be looked at though. What I think would be a good solution (and, I assume, not too much work to implement, but I'm no programmer) would perhaps be some sort of GPS-like module that fits to any ship. Then you stick all your bookmarks into that ships cargo hold and anyone in fleet can warp to those bookmarks while the GPS module is active.
Just an idea. ---------------
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Velicitia
Gallente Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:52:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Marchocias
Surely it would make more sense if it was just a solarsystemID and 3 coordinate numbers...
I think you get this if you use the "create bookmark" thing from people and places (most likely wrong though).
Trouble with that is you could do "bad things" and potentially make bookmarks waaaaay outside of the system (32AU safes, for example). There needs to be a way to ensure at least one pilot has been to where there is a bookmark... =========================
Originally by: CCP Games, 2010 Creation is so precious; and greed, so destructive. Your choices can make a diference
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Roime
Gallente Sin Factory Anarchy Unlimited
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:53:00 -
[57]
I have no comment on the WTZ issue, instead one note about the BMs in general:
Their physical nature is a very important part of w-space experience. If you end up on the wrong side of a collapsed wormhole without bookmarks, you are royally screwed. If bookmarks could be transferred to you via realistic means like mail etc, it would destroy a vital part of the dangerous feeling of wormhole space.
So maybe wire transfer should work only in areas with local.
Some other random ideas:
- wire transferring bookmarks could cost something to avoid spam and maybe act as an isk sink - maybe sov-holding alliances could install some gadgetry to prevent hostiles bookmark wire transfers - what if being target locked would prevent transferring?
Anyway, thanks for looking into it, the lag moving just half a dozen BMs causes is pretty insane at the moment.
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Sadayiel
Caldari Inner Conflict
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:53:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sadayiel on 12/08/2011 11:54:24
Originally by: CCP Prism X
But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.
So after all we are using an old minmmatar Bm system, smashing each other fellow capsuleers with stone tablets until we *memorize* the right coordinates.
AWESOME just made my day
P.S: the OP claim to be a bittervet.. obviously CCP it's fixing the lag somehow when some bittervets want moar and moar lags sources ingame.
DEAR MONOCLE OVERLORDS JOIN TO FORCE CCP ADD LORGNETTE FOR THE OVERLADIES!! |
Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: TharOkha 2004 char failing in gatecamping
This ^. A 2004 character would know EXACTLY how to overcome WTZ to gank a freighter (of all things). He either bought the character and doesn't know how to use it, or he just started pirating. It seems like there are more and more posts from older chars who should know better, and that tells me we're probably seeing fallout from older character sell offs. Either way....
OP, good job on pulling another CCP Dev away from fixing more pressing things that impact on everyone else in the game.
CCP Prism. Thank you for directly engaging your playerbase. I wish all of CCP would take the time to do that. However, I would forget about this post and let OP learn how to adjust his playstyle to the mechanics of the game and let the rest of us happily get on with our lives in EVE a few years after everyone else has adjusted to WTZ.
Petition to bring back 15km warp in?
NO.
Not just no, but NO because game mechanics shouldn't be changed every time someone's "get rich quick" or "pad my killboard" plan fails. |
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:02:00 -
[60]
I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
~ CCP Prism X EVE Database Developer If anything in this post was informative or could be considered as 'good news' to you - chances are you've misread it. |
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:08:00 -
[61]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
Well, I for one am promising copious amounts of mind-altering substances (reasonably legal ones, mind you) if you ninja in improvements to bookmarks.
One simple ninja improvement: be able to export/import bookmarks in a form that lets them be cut and pasted (into emails, evemails, corp bulletins, people&places, etc). In other words, have the server sign them with a secret key, so what the player gets is:
Bookmark name=[encrypted&signed bookmark location data]
eg: WH Static 12-Aug-2011=[ajhd73mnfhAHJA73dhlsfjje7236mfuelchajuejjwejdjjajjedydyd]
Then when someone pastes in the bookmark, the server can determine it is a valid, non-forged bookmark, and add it to their bookmarks database.
Total cost: a little extra code in P&P to handle the import&export. Now, for a normal dev, that might be a week of work, but for you, at most a weekend, and that's assuming you don't get started until Saturday afternoon because of Friday night.
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Sadayiel
Caldari Inner Conflict
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:08:00 -
[62]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
Having fun in your daily work HEATHENS!!! stop tickling the hamsters and start working as slaves to stop the non-stop whines!!
DEAR MONOCLE OVERLORDS JOIN TO FORCE CCP ADD LORGNETTE FOR THE OVERLADIES!! |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:09:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 12/08/2011 12:10:42
Originally by: CCP Prism X I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
Dude, I'd rather see you do something cool like add more space again personally...you were good at that. Bookmarks is so beneath you after 5 years at CCP - Let team BFF do that, they're good at being Eve's janitors and fixing the metaphorical broken toilets!
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:09:00 -
[64]
If we could drag bookmarks into the chat window, and right-click to add bookmark on BMs in the chat window that would make life so much easier.
There is no monocle. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari draketrain
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:16:00 -
[65]
can you put at least add bookmark button on right click menu when you right click in space?
also sharing bookmarks via linking and broadcasting would be awesome
that aside, for future, we really need more flying in space - less warping between bookmarks/wrecks/gang members in space.
for bookmarks, wouldn't it be possible to just add warp to 200km(or x km) above/below/right/left the object x? why we need bookmarks for them?
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:26:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Marchocias on 12/08/2011 12:31:43
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Marchocias
Surely it would make more sense if it was just a solarsystemID and 3 coordinate numbers...
I think you get this if you use the "create bookmark" thing from people and places (most likely wrong though).
Trouble with that is you could do "bad things" and potentially make bookmarks waaaaay outside of the system (32AU safes, for example). There needs to be a way to ensure at least one pilot has been to where there is a bookmark...
Well, CCP could just apply the same function that they used to move all the way-out bookmarks from before, and simply validate every BM before creation to prevent invalid BMs being created.
Personally, I think it would work much better as a mostly client-side system, with both client and serverside validation, but with People and Places still stored server side. It should allow easy importing and exporting of bookmark lists, creation of bookmarks anywhere you can provide valid coordinates, corporation and alliance bookmarks lists, and linking to bookmarks in chat, bio, corp descriptions etc. (eg all text fields) ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:39:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
Well, I for one am promising copious amounts of mind-altering substances (reasonably legal ones, mind you) if you ninja in improvements to bookmarks.
One simple ninja improvement: be able to export/import bookmarks in a form that lets them be cut and pasted (into emails, evemails, corp bulletins, people&places, etc). In other words, have the server sign them with a secret key, so what the player gets is:
Bookmark name=[encrypted&signed bookmark location data]
eg: WH Static 12-Aug-2011=[ajhd73mnfhAHJA73dhlsfjje7236mfuelchajuejjwejdjjajjedydyd]
Then when someone pastes in the bookmark, the server can determine it is a valid, non-forged bookmark, and add it to their bookmarks database.
Total cost: a little extra code in P&P to handle the import&export. Now, for a normal dev, that might be a week of work, but for you, at most a weekend, and that's assuming you don't get started until Saturday afternoon because of Friday night.
Signed.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this.
I had a corpie lost recently, after the static WH spewed him randomly into the system when he jumped in. It was BEYOND SILLY that I, sitting on the other side, could not tell him where it was (I was double tapped so could not jump).
We lost a good chance at a kill as a result.
They should be information (coordinates need to be encrypted, perhaps, to avoid making deep safes again) that is easily exchangeable by all. -------
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:45:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 12:46:27 solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
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Dorian Wylde
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:55:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Bologna Brains Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 12:46:27 solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
I've always assumed there is some limitation in the code, or game philosophy or whatever that means they can't do this.
It's better than the conclusion that they just didn't think of the painfully obvious and perfect solution.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:01:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Bologna Brains solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
People had afaik several WTZ BMs per gate depending on which gate they warped from... Why do you think that was the case?
Hint; it has something to do with a very obvious loophole in your idea.
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Taleris Kline
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:01:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Taleris Kline on 12/08/2011 13:04:36 Great dev responses so far.
I think that what bookmarks do in the context menu is great, but everything else about bookmarks is kind of wonky.
Having bookmarks be stone tablets as CCP Prism X indicated is kind of silly. Since coordinates could be construed as a 4 dimensionsal number (x, y, z and system name), they should be able to be transferred just as easily as an e-mail.
Edit: removed silly question
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:04:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 13:05:00
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Bologna Brains solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
People had afaik several WTZ BMs per gate depending on which gate they warped from... Why do you think that was the case?
Hint; it has something to do with a very obvious loophole in your idea.
?
Example:
Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Bologna Brains Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 13:05:00
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Bologna Brains solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
People had afaik several WTZ BMs per gate depending on which gate they warped from... Why do you think that was the case?
Hint; it has something to do with a very obvious loophole in your idea.
?
Example:
Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
It has to be no BMs withing 115km for that to work, but it would work. With no BMs within 15km, the nearest you can use a BM to warp in at is warp to 100 with puts you 15km away still. You could make it 150km to be nice and sure. Still warp to zero is actually a good thing. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Magnus Veyr
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:16:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Bologna Brains Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
If you make BM at 100km behind a gate, you can warp to that at 100km landing right on the gate. So for your idea to work the "no BM" zone would have to be 100+km
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:18:00 -
[75]
U mad bro?
There's only One Zymurgist! |
Takamori Maruyama
Amarr Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:20:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst If we could drag bookmarks into the chat window, and right-click to add bookmark on BMs in the chat window that would make life so much easier.
We could sell safe spots for ISK's
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:20:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 13:21:18
Originally by: Magnus Veyr
Originally by: Bologna Brains Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
If you make BM at 100km behind a gate, you can warp to that at 100km landing right on the gate. So for your idea to work the "no BM" zone would have to be 100+km
wrote that very quick to refute the idea that i had a "loophole" in my idea.
Like I said in my original post above, devs can easily implement a XX distance from a jumpgate to prevent bookmark creation and that would solve all this. Dont know why it was never done.
Easy, simple solution instead of having added WTZ. Doubt this solution will get a dev response though.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:28:00 -
[78]
There's nothing wrong with WTZ as is. If you can't adapt your little faux-PvP gatecamps to the system then the problem is more likely to be you than the system.
If you were to take away WTZ, you'd need to buff transports and the like so those poor bastards wouldn't have to spend a week trying to go 10 jumps to Jita.
There is no monocle. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:43:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
If you are redoing the bookmark system, you could add support for moving celestials by adding information relating to a celestial into the bookmark. For example: Bookmark [name]; in relation to [celestial]; [tick]rotation and location; [tick] location only.
Maybe add stations and POSes and such, too instead of only celestials as those may be orbiting, too.
And slap some sense into whoever can't drop the up/down orientation of space, I want full 3D free fall open space. --------
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Taleris Kline
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:50:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
If you are redoing the bookmark system, you could add support for moving celestials by adding information relating to a celestial into the bookmark. For example: Bookmark [name]; in relation to [celestial]; [tick]rotation and location; [tick] location only.
Maybe add stations and POSes and such, too instead of only celestials as those may be orbiting, too.
And slap some sense into whoever can't drop the up/down orientation of space, I want full 3D free fall open space.
I think the problem with the up/down orientation of the camera is due to only being able to control the camera in two dimensions. You can pitch the camera up and down and yaw it side to side, but there is currently no way to roll the camera clockwise/counter clockwise around the current pitch/yaw point (as far as I remember). If the ability to roll the camera was added, I think that would fix the up/down orientation of space.
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:08:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Simetraz on 12/08/2011 14:09:34
NO thanks, I was very happy to lose my bookmarks.
If you bring it back it just means old tactics will return.
ie. Groups use a scout who warps ahead of the group and sits on the gate while everyone warps to them. Scouts have better uses then wasting time on navigation. See it is very easy to get around warp to 15 or 50 km for that matter.
All it does is make things more irritating for the vast majority while helping the few who obviously just can't figure it out.
Oh yeh I would love to be able to create bookmarks for corp and alliance that you can right click and use like a normal one. Now THAT would be great. Even the ability to selectively grant certain bookmarks and deny others. Prism if you can do that......and think of how your current bookmark count would go way down.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:11:00 -
[82]
WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.
There was one simple solution to instajumps that CCP ignored back then, and the same solution will work today for WTZ. Make it impossible to warp closer than 15km to gates. Bubbles already do this, just use the same code and the entire discussion about bookmarks becomes irrelevant. I find it hilarious that CCP coded bubbles as a counterweight to WTZ after removing instajumps, but failed to realize that simply adding the same mechanic to gates would have fixed instajumps in the first place without any need for bubbles or WTZ.
All the miserable carebears in this thread who are crying their eyes out and pooping their pants over the prospect of WTZ being removed and piracy/ganking becoming easier are automatically wrong because whilst before WTZ you could run a blockade with a properly fitted/sized fast ship and some planning, after WTZ the size and fitting of your ship became entirely irrelevant thanks to bubbles.
The primary reason why WTZ broke the game though isn't about travel safety. Ultimately, WTZ didn't make travel so much safer as much as it made it simpler and dumber (greater sins by far). Before WTZ smart people would scout ahead and avoid trouble, as they do now. The unprepared and stupid would die. The difference was the extent to which you could prepare (using a smaller and faster ship to run blockades vs. just waiting because there is a bubble) or take risks (running blockade = variable chance of dying based on your setup and the enemy vs. jumping into a bubble = 99% instadeath). It just became a simpler equation with WTZ, which made the game worse and the instant-gratification crowd extremely happy.
No, the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting. Instead we got a dose of the treadmill & instant-gratification culture that proliferates certain games with goddamn elves and dwarves.
Prism, if you want a side project, adopt the cause of removing WTZ and fixing travel times in EVE. The benefit of making bookmarks easier to trade is a drop of irrelevant water compared to the sea of carebear tears and torrents of joy that would flow at the funeral of WTZ.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:15:00 -
[83]
ITT: Tears of the unadaptable and failed ePirates.
There is no monocle. |
Spacing Cowboy
Caldari Rule of Five Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:17:00 -
[84]
null Dear CCP Prism X. :)
My idea, make a radio-ui ( box like drone control ) - make your current location drag-able like solar system to Chat and eve-mail.
Program wise, i assume our spaceship is at a X,Y,Z location in system Y. Hence, info already in the cnull lient, no need for extra server mods. ( right? )
Able to fly a ship with railguns, the size of a small flat, but not able to tell anybody where i am exacly, have been a inmersion killer since the day i found out what bookmark really did in this game. ( week 1 :p )
Peace
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Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:20:00 -
[85]
Ah, this thread brings back memories...
-Sitting on a gate, bored to tears, waiting to pop the rare traveler who didn't have instas just so corpmates could feel good about themselves
-Spending countless hours making instas. I became quite good at it actually
-Not traveling anywhere in lowsec or 0.0 without first making instas in a shuttle
-Rarely leaving my home system in high-sec, unless I had instas to the destination, because of the utter boredom involved in traveling
No. Sorry. I doubt I'd still be playing this game if WTZ had not been introduced. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:22:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Maxpie Ah, this thread brings back memories...
-Sitting on a gate, bored to tears, waiting to pop the rare traveler who didn't have instas just so corpmates could feel good about themselves
-Spending countless hours making instas. I became quite good at it actually
-Not traveling anywhere in lowsec or 0.0 without first making instas in a shuttle
-Rarely leaving my home system in high-sec, unless I had instas to the destination, because of the utter boredom involved in traveling
No. Sorry. I doubt I'd still be playing this game if WTZ had not been introduced.
All of which you would never have to do if bookmarks are not creatable within 100km of jumpgates. ;)
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Spacing Cowboy
Caldari Rule of Five Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:27:00 -
[87]
Regarding the wtz fail-vet tears, Learn to bubble and investigate the module named Sensor Booster. For advanced use, you might want to look at the topic " ways to decloak" .
Gawt, so long in this game, and a 09 noob has to educate your ass? Undock more!?
Then try to gatecamp again
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:36:00 -
[88]
Warp to Zero is never getting removed.
Deal with it. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:40:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 14:41:45
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Warp to Zero is never getting removed.
Deal with it.
Even if this is true, just calling out CCP Prism on his rationale for the removal of warp to 15 with the fact that if they were really concerend about bookmark clutter, they could have disabled bookmarks from being created 100km surrounding a gate instead of the carebear option WTZ.
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:42:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Spacing Cowboy Regarding the wtz fail-vet tears, Learn to bubble and investigate the module named Sensor Booster. For advanced use, you might want to look at the topic " ways to decloak" .
Gawt, so long in this game, and a 09 noob has to educate your ass? Undock more!?
Then try to gatecamp again
except bubbles cant be placed in low sec?
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:43:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Bologna Brains the carebear option WTZ.
People like you are the reason I love WTZ more than any other feature in this game. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Tinilya
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:46:00 -
[92]
Yeah, WTZ should be removed because I just love wasting more time doing menial tasks in Eve.
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Spacing Cowboy
Caldari Rule of Five Vera Cruz Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 14:52:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Spacing Cowboy on 12/08/2011 14:54:19
Originally by: Bologna Brains
Originally by: Spacing Cowboy Regarding the wtz fail-vet tears, Learn to bubble and investigate the module named Sensor Booster. For advanced use, you might want to look at the topic " ways to decloak" .
Gawt, so long in this game, and a 09 noob has to educate your ass? Undock more!?
Then try to gatecamp again
except bubbles cant be placed in low sec?
You can stack sebo's :) and you got that cool remote booster to assist. T3's die on them.
null Or go to 0.0 ... HED-GP is nice/bussy, lots of practice. Jita is close to reship.
Less smack, you can catch nearly everything. But turning eve into a gankfest seems bad to me.
Smart one's live, the stupid / unprepared explode. Thats how its now.
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:54:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Bologna Brains the carebear option WTZ.
People like you are the reason I love WTZ more than any other feature in this game.
Kinda sad you enjoy this feature more than any other in game. :(
Oh, and catching carebears like you even though you have wtz still makes my day.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:00:00 -
[95]
Space should be big, and it should take a long time to deploy ships across a region or two. But the only way that bringing back WT15 makes any sense is if you physically prevent ships from landing within 15 km of an object (so WTZ bookmarks simply don't work) and you simultaneously hypernerf all the other mechanisms of easy force projection, such as jump bridges, Titan portals etc. So, yeah, good luck with that.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:01:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Bologna Brains
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Bologna Brains the carebear option WTZ.
People like you are the reason I love WTZ more than any other feature in this game.
Kinda sad you enjoy this feature more than any other in game. :(
Oh, and catching carebears like you even though you have wtz still makes my day.
If you still catch them... what the hell you whining about? ePeen still a little shriveled because a freighter got away?
There is no monocle. |
Kayvin Jal
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:11:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Kayvin Jal on 12/08/2011 15:11:54 I make a lot of tacticals. I do not like how annoying it is to share them with my friends I play with. (Not even to my whole corp or alliance, usually just to my RL friends.) I would support a new bookmark system.
I would NOT support the loss of warp-to-zero. Travel in this game takes too dang long already. If you want to kill someone, use a bubble. Heck, use two, they're small.
EDIT: I create a new character and my forum account automatically starts posting as it? No wonder there's so many n00b characters posting around here.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:15:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 12/08/2011 15:16:37
Originally by: Bologna Brains Kinda sad you enjoy this feature more than any other in game. :(
It's because it's one of the easiest ways to generate tears I never have to feel guilty about and it's also a quick way of separating terrible EVE players from worthwhile ones. Every single pirate friend of mine I've asked says they consider WTZ to be a positive addition to the game. I can't find a single person in any of the 20+ channels I hang out in in EVE who seriously, unironically wishes to return to the days of WT15. The fact is, WTZ made EVE more accessible and more fun for the vast majority of people, and my objections to a hypothetical return to WT15 have absolutely nothing to do with PvP or combat of any kind. I was smart enough to avoid 90% of gatecamps before WTZ. I just don't want to spend 5-30 more seconds at every gate depending on my ship, because that would be boring, and I play this game to have fun. Travelling through space is already one of the most tedious aspects of EVE, and the only thing that made it less tedious was WTZ.
Bringing back WT15 would make the game less accessible to new players and would mean that the risk/reward tradeoff of low-sec would take an even bigger nosedive. That'd mean even less traffic in 0.4 and below.
Originally by: Bologna Brains Oh, and catching carebears like you even though you have wtz still makes my day.
>"I catch people like you, so that means I am superior to you personally!" >no kill record
You're just butthurt because you know I'm right, and that CCP is never going to remove WTZ. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:19:00 -
[99]
As a W-space dweller I would like to see a better BM system. Managing them now is a pain.
As far as WTZ: Keep it. Large ships like freighters already are tedious. No need to add more tedium to the game.
As far as having a 15 km gate warp making a pirates life easier, I do not think it would. It would just move more people out of low sec, making it even more of a wasteland. If low sec is so dangerous that no one goes there, who are the pirates going to prey on?
In high sec it would make things easier for gankers. But those who live in high sec do so to avoid combat. If its forced on them, they will avoid it by not playing at all. And if a person does not log in, you cannot gank them. So whats the point?
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:32:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 12/08/2011 15:16:37
Originally by: Bologna Brains Kinda sad you enjoy this feature more than any other in game. :(
It's because it's one of the easiest ways to generate tears I never have to feel guilty about and it's also a quick way of separating terrible EVE players from worthwhile ones. Every single pirate friend of mine I've asked says they consider WTZ to be a positive addition to the game. I can't find a single person in any of the 20+ channels I hang out in in EVE who seriously, unironically wishes to return to the days of WT15. The fact is, WTZ made EVE more accessible and more fun for the vast majority of people, and my objections to a hypothetical return to WT15 have absolutely nothing to do with PvP or combat of any kind. I was smart enough to avoid 90% of gatecamps before WTZ. I just don't want to spend 5-30 more seconds at every gate depending on my ship, because that would be boring, and I play this game to have fun. Travelling through space is already one of the most tedious aspects of EVE, and the only thing that made it less tedious was WTZ.
Bringing back WT15 would make the game less accessible to new players and would mean that the risk/reward tradeoff of low-sec would take an even bigger nosedive. That'd mean even less traffic in 0.4 and below.
Originally by: Bologna Brains Oh, and catching carebears like you even though you have wtz still makes my day.
>"I catch people like you, so that means I am superior to you personally!" >no kill record
You're just butthurt because you know I'm right, and that CCP is never going to remove WTZ.
obvious alt account is...obvious.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:46:00 -
[101]
So you concede that I am correct about WTZ? Nice to know. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind.
That was only one of the reasons and not even the main one. The main reason is that 15km warpins are an outdated mechanics that serves no other purpose than to create more obligatory work if you want to play properly. "Need for speed initiative" ringing a bell? Besides, one of your coworkers in CCP explicitly stated that we need to get rid of non-necessary "work" and focus more on blowing ships up. Reintroducing an old outdated mechanics that either requires you to make the bookmarks manually or ask around for them is not going to help.
If you can't predict the consequences, I'll tell you my experience from the time we didn't have WTZ. I started to play in "Red Moon Rising" and have played for a couple of months before WTZ was introduced. During all that time as a new player, considering that I needed the bookmark to be able to warp to a gate in lowsec and not end up being served to pirates at 15kms on a silver plate, I decided that one thing is the best for me - stay the hell away from lowsec before I could join a corporation that can provide me the bookmarks. Naturally, I've seen no reason whatsoever to ever go to lowsec so I haven't even bothered to join a player corporation or take a look at lowsec.
Conclusion #1: Removing WTZ will shift the time when new players are willing to even consider going to lowsec and force them to cocoon themselves in highsec.
The next thing is UI. Why you have forced us to use drop-down menus to switch between ships in station is beyond me. I really hope you are working on making a fix for that. The perfect solution would be that you bring Ship View (or "Station Spinning" if you like) back, but there are some alternative solutions even for that. To force players to have even more bookmarks than now which means even more drop-down menus, but this time in space where you must react fast, is catastrophic design... and that's an understatement (the real statement describing the properties of that idea would contain profanities, but I'm trying to be constructive and civilized here).
Conclusion #2: We don't need any more drop-down menus and even more populated UI in order to play.
I could state many other reasons against removing WTZ, but I have wasted enough time replying to this troll of a topic without any solid connection to reality and any clue how the game, players and the community work. This only happened because employees in CCP somehow lost their connection with the game itself, so players themselves now must reply in detail to every troll post in order to show the game designers what the situation in reality is. |
Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 16:01:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris So you concede that I am correct about WTZ? Nice to know.
How does my response state I agree with you? Anyways, following your logic, we should increase the damage gate guns do by 100x in low sec, as that would make low-sec more accessible for new players. That makes no sense. Eve is not a game of instant gratification; gate camps, traps, and a lot of pvp is a game of patience. If you choose to fly a freighter, it makes sense that you would have to spend an extra 30 seconds moving to the jumpgate, given your size. If you fly a fast frigate, the time is considerably less. I see no problem with that. You have your opinions and I have mine. They will never be the same.
Your responses are nothing but immature flames and I will not be addressing them again.
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.12 16:12:00 -
[104]
Obviously the important improvement to bookmarks is to stop them trying to kill the server whenever they are referenced by the server/client.
Some other ideas: A corp/alliance or otherwise shared 'library' of bookmarks. Individual players can either directly access the library or can uh... 'bookmark' the bookmarks as needed for later use. Editing and other access could be restricted as needed.
Make bookmarks transferable via mail or drag n drop in chat windows same as shared fits can be. Sharing of multiple bookmarks could be via libraries as per the corp sharing suggestion.
For goodness sake don't impose limits on the numbers of bookmarks people can use. All it does is nerf those that are more adventurous and traverse the universe more.
One thing that would be pretty spiffy would be a collective pool of bookmarks for use by fleets, consisting of bookmarks made while the fleet is active. Anyone that wants to keep them for later use can copy them from the pool but the general idea is to save on 'who do I warp to?' and tighten a fleets coordination.
This way scouts, particularly cov-ops scouts could be even more active in tracking down targets and providing needed intel without having to wait for a fleet to catch up to provide the actual warp-in. Possibly overpowered? It would allow reward for more active/dedicated scouting as opposed to leaving it to alt boxed cloak and forget types we generally see at the moment. forward scouts could truly operate effectively 5+ jumps ahead or around the main fleets current location.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.08.12 17:23:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Bologna Brains How does my response state I agree with you?
You didn't actually refute any of the points I made, so presumably you agree with them.
Originally by: Bologna Brains Anyways, following your logic, we should increase the damage gate guns do by 100x in low sec as that would make low-sec more accessible for new players.
By what insane mental contortion did you determine my logic supports this?
Originally by: Bologna Brains That makes no sense.
No, your assertion about what I think makes no sense.
Originally by: Bologna Brains Eve is not a game of instant gratification; gate camps, traps, and a lot of pvp is a game of patience.
That doesn't mean it's neccessary to artificially extend travel times. It is perfectly possible to set up perfectly serviceable gatecamps and ambushes with WTZ. I should know, I've done it - if you can't do it, then it isn't my problem.
Originally by: Bologna Brains If you choose to fly a freighter, it makes sense that you would have to spend an extra 30 seconds moving to the jumpgate, given your size.
You already have to spend upwards of a minute at the inbound jumpgate aligning your freighter. This leaves ample time for a gank.
Originally by: Bologna Brains Your responses are nothing but immature flames and I will not be addressing them again.
You were the one who started throwing around "carebear" like a racial epiphet and then couldn't back up your assertions. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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MinSebsis
Minmatar Steel Hammer Industry
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Posted - 2011.08.12 17:43:00 -
[106]
Hello,
I say keep WTZ for now, but an Idea I had was to remove bookmarks and replace them with navpoints, and tie in the probe UI.
Each ship can have a set number of navpoints native to it, with more added per a few new skills. They connect like probes so if you leave system or dock they disappear.
You could also add grav-strength based on skills and also allow cov-ops to equip stronger more precise navpoints which allow for a tighter warp in.
Also add the option for fleet/corp mates to see the navpoints in system. To add even more challenge allow the navpoints to be scannable, and show on overview, also make them destructable.
I am sure there are even more options but I really like to have navpoints that I can move around system.
Just some idea's that I am sure could be expanded on and refined.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 17:47:00 -
[107]
So... take away warp to zero... scan an enemy ship down and the best you can hope to do is warp to the enemy at 15K?
You think these ePirates are *****ing now at the ones that got away? Wait until they have the balls to try PvP away from gate camps and have them get away.
If their nuts ever drop, that is.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Arcon Telf
Gallente N0 APOLOGY Cascade Probable
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:57:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Arcon Telf on 12/08/2011 17:57:32
Originally by: CCP Prism X Hey guys, thought I'd step in here with some info on the subject.
As has been mentioned, the reason for WTZ being introduced was the epic proliferation of WTZ bookmarks copied all over the database causing lockups on both clients and servers alike. Feel free to blame me for that as I was involved in some areas of that project and am quite used to being scolded by people I don't know. But as it stands the bookmark system is still in dire need of "refactoring" before anything like this could be reintroduced.
But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.
So after reading this yesterday I poked a bit around. I haven't completed said poking but so far I'm gathering that there is no new game design for any new bookmark system and before we have a new one the old code will not be touched as it needs to be deprecated, not refactor, as I touched on above. I'd love to make up for my part in this by solving the initial problem with a technical overhaul but for that we need a new game design. To get a new design we need resources and they are not available in the short term. I wouldn't want to rush anything so the short term was always out of the picture anyways.
Now, it's imperative that you understand that I'm a programmer and not in any position to decide on our roadmap or resource allocation. I'm just looking for a fun project I could get into at some point in the future if there's any excitement about it in the first place. And of course I cannot even promise that it would reintroduce 15Km warps. But I've been here for almost five years now and a whole lot of people owe me beers for favours that they've never ponied up.. so who knows?
At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text.
Seems to me that maintaining or enhancing immersion should always be your guide and litmus test for changing features or introducing new ones.
I agree that the current bookmark system breaks immersion. Any changes that ameliorate that issue would be welcome in my book. And based on the technical issues you described, those changes would probably provide some welcome relief for the server as well.
In general, I think that the mechanics of how information is shared between pilots/corps/alliances/fleet members could be massively overhauled and enhanced. The result would be a more robust, immersive experience, and - if executed properly - more efficient code. |
Tautut
Universal Freelance
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:00:00 -
[109]
New BM system? Yes, surely.
I remember when the original BM issues were first discovered. Surprised it's not been dealt with already. Appreciate it's probably not easy but the existing system is cumbersome to say the least. Interesting to hear if this gets picked up.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:02:00 -
[110]
I actually don't mind the whole WTZ. It always seemed rather dumb that we couldn't, back in the day.
As far as BM's are concerned, sure I'd love an overhaul. Whenever I open my people and places my client freezes for quite some time, due to all the BM's. Just stopping that would be nice.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
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Tribunia
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:20:00 -
[111]
Originally by: CCP Prism X It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets).
Finally, finally, finally!
Thank you!
We want this yesterday.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:32:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Raid''En on 12/08/2011 18:36:29
BMs are after all simply : a system name + a XYZ position on it.
we would really like something easier to use...
however, if it's easier to do, being able to create a BM from numbers (you input the values) would be a bit useful, even if way less. it would allow people to share the infos on mail, or even forums. of course it would be pretty long if people want to create all these, but for some it could be useful before you give us corp bookmarks.
but as i said, only if this is easy to do for you... as what we really want are things like corp bookmarks, and some automatic system as trebor said.
and please : don't take us our warp to zero hauling is boring enough. if we got that, no need for manuel piloting on safe space, as autopilot would be the same (or you want to use MDW each time ? - hell freighters can't even...) and if someone miss his gank, he had to think about preparing something on the next system...
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:34:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Dub Step
Not only are you too incompetent to use bubbles or catch people on the outbound, you wish to completely remove solo play and force people out of the sandbox and into the blobs.
If you want a return to oldschool methods go support some of the arguments about the death of sniping rather than wanting an easy gank mode because your fleet composition is too bad at gate camping (which really isn't difficult).
Are you kidding me? Warp-To-Zero KILLED solo play in low sec. The only soloing that happens now in low sec is consensual frigate PvP in the asteroid belts. And then you might as well be dropping cans in front of Dodixie asking for 1v1s.
Before warp-to-zero, it was possible for a solo pilot to sit on a gate and get a kill. This is no longer possible. Now, in order for anyone to get any kills they *at least* need to have a couple of fast tackle on the outbound gate (several if it's a big gate), and a couple of DPS ships. So the end result is that there are no more solo gate camps, which a player can actually fight back against. Instead now we have larger gate camps, at LEAST 5 pilots strong. There is no way your average solo pilot can fight back against that, unless he brings his own blob.
And before you say that I just want easy kills - I don't. I'm a carebear and I could care less if I got any kills or not. Actually, the OP was the first person to pop my ship and pod me, back when I was a new to the game. Low-sec was just more fun when most of the gate camps were solo pirates and you actually stood a chance of fighting back. It was more than just my blob vs. your blob. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:46:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Dub Step
Not only are you too incompetent to use bubbles or catch people on the outbound, you wish to completely remove solo play and force people out of the sandbox and into the blobs.
If you want a return to oldschool methods go support some of the arguments about the death of sniping rather than wanting an easy gank mode because your fleet composition is too bad at gate camping (which really isn't difficult).
Are you kidding me? Warp-To-Zero KILLED solo play in low sec. The only soloing that happens now in low sec is consensual frigate PvP in the asteroid belts. And then you might as well be dropping cans in front of Dodixie asking for 1v1s.
Before warp-to-zero, it was possible for a solo pilot to sit on a gate and get a kill. This is no longer possible.
...
Low-sec was just more fun when most of the gate camps were solo pirates and you actually stood a chance of fighting back. It was more than just my blob vs. your blob.
What is to stop you solo camping, jumping and catching people on the outbound? Just because you can't get an EASY kill doesn't make it impossible. Clearly you ARE a carebear since you highlight no understanding of the actual mechanics involved.
It's hard to take what you say seriously when you sound like a whiny babby with unreasoned arguments like 'all 1v1 is pointless frig pew'.
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baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:51:00 -
[115]
If you remove wtz then everyone will just get wtz bookmarks again so we will have what we have now only with more crap saved onto the system. Thats why CCP gave us wtz in the first place.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:53:00 -
[116]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Hey guys, thought I'd step in here with some info on the subject.
As has been mentioned, the reason for WTZ being introduced was the epic proliferation of WTZ bookmarks copied all over the database causing lockups on both clients and servers alike. Feel free to blame me for that as I was involved in some areas of that project and am quite used to being scolded by people I don't know. But as it stands the bookmark system is still in dire need of "refactoring" before anything like this could be reintroduced.
But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.
So after reading this yesterday I poked a bit around. I haven't completed said poking but so far I'm gathering that there is no new game design for any new bookmark system and before we have a new one the old code will not be touched as it needs to be deprecated, not refactor, as I touched on above. I'd love to make up for my part in this by solving the initial problem with a technical overhaul but for that we need a new game design. To get a new design we need resources and they are not available in the short term. I wouldn't want to rush anything so the short term was always out of the picture anyways.
Now, it's imperative that you understand that I'm a programmer and not in any position to decide on our roadmap or resource allocation. I'm just looking for a fun project I could get into at some point in the future if there's any excitement about it in the first place. And of course I cannot even promise that it would reintroduce 15Km warps. But I've been here for almost five years now and a whole lot of people owe me beers for favours that they've never ponied up.. so who knows?
At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text.
If you are concerned about immersion breaking. Then why does a space ships that can fly FTL even need a bookmark? Why can't we use the computers that should be amazingly powerful to fly to any X, Y, Z, coordinate with in a system we want. Why do you need a bookmark for the spot, or something like a a celestial first to be there before we can warp to a spot?
Seems silly and immersion breaking.
Of course game wise I can understand the desire to control player movement. But I personally don't think it is all that necessary and we should be able to fly to any X, Y, Z, coordinate we desire. So long as it is in certain AU of the furthest Celestial object with in the system. Like bookmarks have to be now.
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:53:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Dub Step
Not only are you too incompetent to use bubbles or catch people on the outbound, you wish to completely remove solo play and force people out of the sandbox and into the blobs.
If you want a return to oldschool methods go support some of the arguments about the death of sniping rather than wanting an easy gank mode because your fleet composition is too bad at gate camping (which really isn't difficult).
Are you kidding me? Warp-To-Zero KILLED solo play in low sec. The only soloing that happens now in low sec is consensual frigate PvP in the asteroid belts. And then you might as well be dropping cans in front of Dodixie asking for 1v1s.
Before warp-to-zero, it was possible for a solo pilot to sit on a gate and get a kill. This is no longer possible.
...
Low-sec was just more fun when most of the gate camps were solo pirates and you actually stood a chance of fighting back. It was more than just my blob vs. your blob.
What is to stop you solo camping, jumping and catching people on the outbound? Just because you can't get an EASY kill doesn't make it impossible. Clearly you ARE a carebear since you highlight no understanding of the actual mechanics involved.
It's hard to take what you say seriously when you sound like a whiny babby with unreasoned arguments like 'all 1v1 is pointless frig pew'.
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Erim Solfara
Amarr inFluX.
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:04:00 -
[118]
I admit, I skipped over alot of the thread, but as a dev is watching and said he'd be looking at support, I'm gonna add my voice.
I'd be pro- co-ordinate based warps, or something to replace the BM system, what prism said about BMs being ridiculous was bang on the money for me, I've always thought they were cumbersome and weird in the setting.
I'd also be pro 15km warps again, but not from a gate pvp mechanics debate. Personally, the biggest 'issue' the WTZ change introduced was the enormous reduction in travel times. There was alot of discussion about diversifying warp acceleration speeds and whatnot between ship classes following the change, but nothing came of them.
WTZ made the universe smaller, it makes travel massively quicker for slow ships, and didn't make it that much faster for speedy, agile ships. I'd rather see smaller ships getting an advantage in roaming based on distances and time constraints, whereas at the moment there's not to be said for slugging a battleship 15 jumps to go shoot something.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:53:00 -
[119]
Bring back 'Warp To 15' and add a 'Warp to Zero Nav Computer' to the NEX store?
Perhaps allow ten stored bookmarks and sell extra 'Bookmark Storage Slots' for aurum?
The possibilities are endless! ------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.12 20:12:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Ceelah on 12/08/2011 20:16:28 Edited by: Ceelah on 12/08/2011 20:15:30
Originally by: Taedrin Are you kidding me? Warp-To-Zero KILLED solo play in low sec. The only soloing that happens now in low sec is consensual frigate PvP in the asteroid belts. And then you might as well be dropping cans in front of Dodixie asking for 1v1s.
Before warp-to-zero, it was possible for a solo pilot to sit on a gate and get a kill. This is no longer possible. Now, in order for anyone to get any kills they *at least* need to have a couple of fast tackle on the outbound gate (several if it's a big gate), and a couple of DPS ships. So the end result is that there are no more solo gate camps, which a player can actually fight back against. Instead now we have larger gate camps, at LEAST 5 pilots strong. There is no way your average solo pilot can fight back against that, unless he brings his own blob.
And before you say that I just want easy kills - I don't. I'm a carebear and I could care less if I got any kills or not. Actually, the OP was the first person to pop my ship and pod me, back when I was a new to the game. Low-sec was just more fun when most of the gate camps were solo pirates and you actually stood a chance of fighting back. It was more than just my blob vs. your blob.
Ok. I guess i missed the OP intent. This isn't about making piwate ganks easier, it's about solo pvp. Since we're entertaining individual requests to change game mechanics in favor of "more solo pvp" here are mine:
1. Undo the nano nerf. I loved Nano-Tar and slinging silver clouds of drone death while orbiting at 6000 kms. This should be done because it was easier to gank everything and hey, I liked sticking my head out the window like a dog and feeling the solar wind in my hair.
2. I want freighters to have 6 low slots and 5 mid slots. If I have to warp my trade alt in at 15k from the gate I should be able to tank it against piwates and fit speed mods if I want to. Give the easy peasy piwates their version of balance, and give me mine.
3. Give me back all of my Gallente drone bandwidth. The only thing better than Nano-tar and clouds of drones was T2 Ogre Myrmidon madness. We want to increase solo pvp, right? Give us back the once upon a time baddest ass battlecruiser and all of the Gallente Drone god goodness I miss.
Also, I want Nos to work like it used to... sucking the life and soul from my targets while their blood and tears powered my dual armor rep tank. Forget about cap. I should have all of it in my ship, my prey should have none.
See how that works? You want something to help your playstyle, I get to ask for something in return that helps maintain the balance.
OR
We can just move on and accept that pvp is still pvp, and if you don't suck at EVE or you TRY to learn something new, you can still solo kill a bunch of stuff everywhere without a nerf crutch.
NO to 15k warp in on gate. |
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.12 20:14:00 -
[121]
Moronic arguments for removing WTZ.
If you think the universe is *small* try leaving that gate camp and going 5 or 6 regions without touching jump bridges.
Any Changes here are going to be terrible. Can't think of a single variation / option that has any merit to it.
There's only One Zymurgist! |
Shandril silvermoon
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:07:00 -
[122]
It was soo..long and boring to travel around(if you did not have bookmark) when you had to warp at 15km. There is plenty of way to catch people at gate already I do not think that reinstating the 15 km warp in would be a good thing overal.
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Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:16:00 -
[123]
Originally by: LittleTerror The game was fine before warp to 0 in fact it was a better game, no i don't want instas so a ban on bookmarks on the same grid as gate would be good.
You wanna spy on a gate from 250km away then fly the distance...
That is bad. Many bms are on grid 300km. Many bms are on grid 150+ out for various warp in reasons (pounce, bomber runs, etc).
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:23:00 -
[124]
Find it funny people are whining about a suggestion to bring things back the way they were. (nos,stabs,nano,) Seems like a lot of the people arguing for WTZ have never experienced anything else... I am all for it...just eliminate all bookmarks within the grid of the gate...then let the fun begin...again.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:28:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ildryn Find it funny people are whining about a suggestion to bring things back the way they were. (nos,stabs,nano,) Seems like a lot of the people arguing for WTZ have never experienced anything else... I am all for it...just eliminate all bookmarks within the grid of the gate...then let the fun begin...again.
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:43:00 -
[126]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 22:29:13
Originally by: Ildryn Find it funny people are whining about a suggestion to bring things back the way they were. (nos,stabs,nano,) Seems like a lot of the people arguing for WTZ have never experienced anything else... I am all for it...just eliminate all bookmarks within the grid of the gate...then let the fun begin...again.
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:09:00 -
[127]
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 23:11:36
Originally by: Ildryn
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
The irony here is you didnt read what I was replying to.
I also remember just how long it took to get a frieghter anywhere. Of all the things to want back this is one of the worst. The only fans of this are poor pirates who cant even run a gate camp right.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:38:00 -
[128]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 23:11:36
Originally by: Ildryn
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
The irony here is you didnt read what I was replying to.
I also remember just how long it took to get a frieghter anywhere. Of all the things to want back this is one of the worst. The only fans of this are poor pirates who cant even run a gate camp right.
If you were replying to the bit about deleting the bookmarks then you have my apologies. However being a carebear and a fan of WT15 your last sentence is mute.
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OMGWTFResearch
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Posted - 2011.08.13 06:03:00 -
[129]
There is no reason to remove WTZ because of Fail Pirates. It was introduced before the introduction of interdictor bubbles and heavy interdictors so those you see whining about it are the ones in my opinion who failed to train for those ships and want CCP to give them free ganks again.
CCP This is JUST like the epic whining by the pirates when CONCORD was buffed up. You take away their free ganks and instead of like they love to claim "Adapting" they come on the forum and whine and threaten to quit.
WTZ has been balanced by various warp disruption additions. Fix the bookmark system but keep warp to zero please.
UNSIGNED
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.13 07:00:00 -
[130]
Are you so bad at finding reasons for schadenfreude that you must engineer fantastic scenarios wherein it is handed to you on a silver platter?
Personally I'm in favor of Autopilot WTZ, and I've still not heard a good argument against it.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.08.13 07:33:00 -
[131]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
The bookmarks are really nothing other than an (automated) packaged coordinates (I'm guessing). If you can simplify the coordinates into something fairly human readable, then a player can either manually or automatically input numbers/symbols etc. It's just a matter of a straight text copy and paste into let's say a "navigation computer", which itself is more immersive.
The obvious cons to that is that since players are so used to automating things via simple left click bookmarking, it'll be seen as awkward and unwieldy. However, there are probably ways to mitigate that if you think hard enough. Another interesting side effect to putting the coordinates into the hands of the players is those coordinates will be the same for everyone - which may lead to several emerging gameplay options (both cons and pros).
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.13 07:44:00 -
[132]
Remove the bookmark system entirely and replace it with a manual coordinate-system.
Personally, I'd really like a system where I had more control over warps.
For instance, instead of warping, pressing ctrl+space, rinse and repeat and then warping to a gate at random range (depending on how much or how little cap is left) to get to a safe point feels silly. Give us the option to select where we warp without having a bookmark, and allow us to have a system to travel between given coordinates (X,Y,Z).
Warping to a certain point in space would then be about inserting the right variables in the navigation computer. And "sharing" those points would simply be putting up a webpage (think IGB) where warpto://1094210,4092596,2332 would take you to our friendly POS. Those links would also give you the option to align to a certain point in said direction.
HABIT
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 08:19:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 13/08/2011 08:24:25
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Remove the bookmark system entirely and replace it with a manual coordinate-system.
Personally, I'd really like a system where I had more control over warps.
For instance, instead of warping, pressing ctrl+space, rinse and repeat and then warping to a gate at random range (depending on how much or how little cap is left) to get to a safe point feels silly. Give us the option to select where we warp without having a bookmark, and allow us to have a system to travel between given coordinates (X,Y,Z).
Warping to a certain point in space would then be about inserting the right variables in the navigation computer. And "sharing" those points would simply be putting up a webpage (think IGB) where warpto://1094210,4092596,2332 would take you to our friendly POS. Those links would also give you the option to align to a certain point in said direction.
Indeed.
Coordinate system with no accurate warps would be ideal. In fact it opens up some interesting possibilities.
Additional thoughts:
-Perhaps institute a ship class/role ability for transports and freighters to increase warp accuracy (though not to 100% accuracy). So that roles and tasks that rely solely on travel do not needlessly go back to a tedious state... while the rest of the game doesn't need to be overly simplistic just for the sake of travel concerns. Best of both worlds.
-Create unscannable objects (acceleration gates, underground stations, clouds of ponies, whatever) that are only able to be found via coordinates. This opens up some interesting storyline possibilities. Perhaps even a whole new aspect to eve.
-I'd suggest a skill to improve warp accuracy, but that would only introduce a mandatory skill ala learning skills so that idea sucks. But no reason we don't have room for a new module/rig (both?) here. Further touching on my first bullet point of making travel fast if need be (but not without that specialization give/take that should be expected)
Might just be that punch in the arm and kick in the ass Eve needs to become that big huge mysterious new world again.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:13:00 -
[134]
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
4. Buy instabookmark sets on market. Don't be Zippy. |
Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:30:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Hori To
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
4. Buy instabookmark sets on market.
Are you stupid or just blindly obstinate? I suppose people could try to line up perfect bookmarks with 'warp to 100km'
either way, you ignore the fact that the bookmark system would need to be replaced entirely.
There would not be instabookmark sets to buy, if there could be, ccp would not spend the time to implement a system that would cause the same problems the caused the implementation of warp to zero
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:44:00 -
[136]
Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
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Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:54:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ildryn
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 23:11:36
Originally by: Ildryn
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
The irony here is you didnt read what I was replying to.
I also remember just how long it took to get a frieghter anywhere. Of all the things to want back this is one of the worst. The only fans of this are poor pirates who cant even run a gate camp right.
If you were replying to the bit about deleting the bookmarks then you have my apologies. However being a carebear and a fan of WT15 your last sentence is mute.
Unless you mean their last sentence is unable to speak/is silent, the word is moot.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:02:00 -
[138]
Originally by: baltec1 Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
Shall we wipe your bum and make your breakfast for you as well?
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:04:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: baltec1 Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
Shall we wipe your bum and make your breakfast for you as well?
Well at the moment I cannot think of a single good thing that can be gained from removing wtz while my list of problems it would cause is rather big.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:08:00 -
[140]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: baltec1 Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
Shall we wipe your bum and make your breakfast for you as well?
Well at the moment I cannot think of a single good thing that can be gained from removing wtz while my list of problems it would cause is rather big.
If you can actually develop that into an argument we won't all simply thing of it as a lack of imagination and thought on your part.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:10:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
If you can actually develop that into an argument we won't all simply thing of it as a lack of imagination and thought on your part.
I dont see how I can make this any more simple for you.
How will getting rid of wtz help me?
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:14:00 -
[142]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
If you can actually develop that into an argument we won't all simply thing of it as a lack of imagination and thought on your part.
I dont see how I can make this any more simple for you.
How will getting rid of wtz help me?
I didn't ask you to clarify your question. I told you to go think for yourself.
I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you can't think for yourself, go back to wow.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:19:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
I didn't ask you to clarify your question. I told you to go think for yourself.
I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you can't think for yourself, go back to wow.
If you cannot argue your point then you have no point to make. I see no benefit in this idea and seeing as you cannot make any argument in favor for it either this idea has no place in game.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:21:00 -
[144]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
I didn't ask you to clarify your question. I told you to go think for yourself.
I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you can't think for yourself, go back to wow.
If you cannot argue your point then you have no point to make. I see no benefit in this idea and seeing as you cannot make any argument in favor for it either this idea has no place in game.
Try scrolling up to my first comment on this page troll. I talk about benefits to the game.
As to benefits to you, well I wouldn't know what does or doesn't benefit a troll in-game.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:44:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Try scrolling up to my first comment on this page troll. I talk about benefits to the game.
As to benefits to you, well I wouldn't know what does or doesn't benefit a troll in-game.
I read it. Like the idea for scanning things down for pve but not for gate travel in my orca. I already spend 1-2 hours getting around as it is, the last thing I need is to have to scan down gates in every system and then slowboat up to it.
It will also slow down pvp. You wont be able to roam nearly as fast as you can now which will cost you fights. Low sec wont see anymore kills than it gets now because people will not try to ship anything about without the use of something with a jump drive. So I guess you will have more kestrel kills.
There is nothing of benefit in taking away wtz. Only more time to do the things we do now.
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Sentient Blade
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Posted - 2011.08.13 11:27:00 -
[146]
15 KM warp in is an excellent idea.
I can't think of anything more enjoyable than sitting in a battleship slow-boating it to get to each gate at 100m/s because my ultra futuristic space ship apparently can't manage to stop automatically in the same way most new cars can.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.13 12:45:00 -
[147]
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch There is no reason to remove WTZ because of Fail Pirates. It was introduced before the introduction of interdictor bubbles and heavy interdictors so those you see whining about it are the ones in my opinion who failed to train for those ships and want CCP to give them free ganks again.
CCP This is JUST like the epic whining by the pirates when CONCORD was buffed up. You take away their free ganks and instead of like they love to claim "Adapting" they come on the forum and whine and threaten to quit.
WTZ has been balanced by various warp disruption additions. Fix the bookmark system but keep warp to zero please.
UNSIGNED
Wow. Do you really believe that? Sorry noob. Interdictors and Dictor bubbles were out long before the removal of wtz. However heavy interdictors were released later. I guess a character from 2008.08.10 15:03 wouldn't know that though.
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Narisa Bithon
Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn
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Posted - 2011.08.13 13:04:00 -
[148]
no
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Russell Casey
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Posted - 2011.08.13 15:17:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Russell Casey on 13/08/2011 15:17:35 Petition to give the OP some friends to gatecamp with. Obviously he has no one to provide sensor-boost/tackle for him.
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.08.13 15:48:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Ceelah Edited by: Ceelah on 12/08/2011 20:42:53 Ok. I guess i missed the OP intent. This isn't about making piwate ganks easier, it's about solo pvp. Since we're entertaining individual requests to change game mechanics in favor of "more solo pvp" here are mine:
1. Undo the nano nerf. I loved Nano-Tar and slinging silver clouds of drone death while orbiting at 6000 kms. This should be done because it was easier to gank everything and hey, I liked sticking my head out the window like a dog and feeling the solar wind in my hair.
2. I want freighters to have 6 low slots and 5 mid slots. If I have to warp my trade alt in at 15k from the gate I should be able to tank it against piwates and fit speed mods if I want to. Give the easy peasy piwates their version of balance, and give me mine.
3. Give me back all of my Gallente drone bandwidth. The only thing better than Nano-tar and clouds of drones was T2 Ogre Myrmidon madness. We want to increase solo pvp, right? Give us back the once upon a time baddest ass battlecruiser and all of the Gallente Drone god goodness I miss.
4. Un-nerf Falcon. That's right. I want the old "tear your damn eyes out" Falcon that would OMGWTFBBQPWN ECM every ship in range and leave them blind and defenseless to my corpies and our roaming bands of mercenary inflicted violent death in space.
5. Death to neut reppers. You so much as pass a tube of Bactine to my wartarget and you should go insta flashy red and suffer the kind of death reserved for pedophiles and people who talk loudly in movies.
Also, I want Nos to work like it used to... sucking the life and soul from my targets while their blood and tears powered my dual armor rep tank. Forget about cap. I should have all of it in my ship, my prey should have none.
See how that works? You want something to help your playstyle, I get to ask for something in return that helps maintain the balance.
OR
We can just move on and accept that pvp is still pvp, and if you don't suck at EVE or you TRY to learn something new, you can still solo kill a bunch of stuff everywhere without a nerf crutch.
NO to 15k warp in on gate.
I was responding to a claim that warp-to-15km discouraged solo play in EVE. I am not advocating a return of warp-to-15km: I am just saying that I liked it better.
BUT, for the sake of argument: you are comparing apples to oranges: warp to zero was not introduced in order to nerf pirates - it was introduced to save the database from the torture players were putting it under. At the time WTZ was introduced, 80% of the data in the database were entries in the bookmark table. CCP didn't want to remove warp-to-15km, but they had to at the time, because they had no means of neutering insta bookmarks besides WTZ.
All of the changes that you mention are balancing changes to prevent EVE from becoming homogenized - not because TQ needed a performance boost (well, except for the first nano-nerf which was breaking the physics engine)
1. The nano-nerf was introduced because EVERYONE was flying nano, and the only counter to a nano was to fly a rapier, and even then they can just disengage.
3. Once again, the myrmidon/Eos nerfs were because the Eos was a better gank boat than the Astarte, and the myrmidon dealt more damage than most battleships, in a battlecruiser hull.
4. Same as the nano-nerf: everyone was flying falcon. Of course, I would have preferred if CCP had given ECCM a combat advantage, just like every other ew-counter.
5. There are many people who would agree with you here, and CCP is considering such a change.
6. NOS-nerf was introduced because nobody was using neuts. IMO, though, NOS-nerf was heavy handed, as very few people fit NOS now.
7. You are saying you get to select 6 playstyle changes for every 1 playstyle that you dislike, which hardly makes for a strong argument.
----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Ceelah
|
Posted - 2011.08.13 16:31:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Ceelah on 13/08/2011 16:43:49
Originally by: Taedrin
I was responding to a claim that warp-to-15km discouraged solo play in EVE. I am not advocating a return of warp-to-15km: I am just saying that I liked it better.
BUT, for the sake of argument: you are comparing apples to oranges: warp to zero was not introduced in order to nerf pirates - it was introduced to save the database from the torture players were putting it under. At the time WTZ was introduced, 80% of the data in the database were entries in the bookmark table. CCP didn't want to remove warp-to-15km, but they had to at the time, because they had no means of neutering insta bookmarks besides WTZ.
All of the changes that you mention are balancing changes to prevent EVE from becoming homogenized - not because TQ needed a performance boost (well, except for the first nano-nerf which was breaking the physics engine)
1. The nano-nerf was introduced because EVERYONE was flying nano, and the only counter to a nano was to fly a rapier, and even then they can just disengage.
3. Once again, the myrmidon/Eos nerfs were because the Eos was a better gank boat than the Astarte, and the myrmidon dealt more damage than most battleships, in a battlecruiser hull.
4. Same as the nano-nerf: everyone was flying falcon. Of course, I would have preferred if CCP had given ECCM a combat advantage, just like every other ew-counter.
5. There are many people who would agree with you here, and CCP is considering such a change.
6. NOS-nerf was introduced because nobody was using neuts. IMO, though, NOS-nerf was heavy handed, as very few people fit NOS now.
7. You are saying you get to select 6 playstyle changes for every 1 playstyle that you dislike, which hardly makes for a strong argument.
You kind of failed at reading. I know that all of the above stuff I put down is petty and unreasonable.
I didn't argue that I should get 6 things for every one thing. I threw six wild ass demands out there, and I'm guessing you grew a unibrow, over-heated your T2 Post Module, and then demonstrated that someone will always have a demand or argument to counter every one of your demands.
That was the intent of the post... to point out that entertaining a return to old game mechanics opens up a whole can of worms for other people who also have special requests for how they play(ed) the game. Before you know it all of those requests start to pretty much propose unraveling everything else in the game.
It was sarcasm (iirc I listed some pretty selfish and silly reasons for my demands), and at the very bottom (the part where I typed "OR") I clearly indicated that the alternative to all kinds of special demands to suit one player was to simply get on with life in EVE and adapt to the things in game that everyone else has to adapt to.
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Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.08.13 18:17:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Viceroy WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.
There was one simple solution to instajumps that CCP ignored back then, and the same solution will work today for WTZ. Make it impossible to warp closer than 15km to gates. Bubbles already do this, just use the same code and the entire discussion about bookmarks becomes irrelevant. I find it hilarious that CCP coded bubbles as a counterweight to WTZ after removing instajumps, but failed to realize that simply adding the same mechanic to gates would have fixed instajumps in the first place without any need for bubbles or WTZ.
All the miserable carebears in this thread who are crying their eyes out and pooping their pants over the prospect of WTZ being removed and piracy/ganking becoming easier are automatically wrong because whilst before WTZ you could run a blockade with a properly fitted/sized fast ship and some planning, after WTZ the size and fitting of your ship became entirely irrelevant thanks to bubbles.
The primary reason why WTZ broke the game though isn't about travel safety. Ultimately, WTZ didn't make travel so much safer as much as it made it simpler and dumber (greater sins by far). Before WTZ smart people would scout ahead and avoid trouble, as they do now. The unprepared and stupid would die. The difference was the extent to which you could prepare (using a smaller and faster ship to run blockades vs. just waiting because there is a bubble) or take risks (running blockade = variable chance of dying based on your setup and the enemy vs. jumping into a bubble = 99% instadeath). It just became a simpler equation with WTZ, which made the game worse and the instant-gratification crowd extremely happy.
No, the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting. Instead we got a dose of the treadmill & instant-gratification culture that proliferates certain games with goddamn elves and dwarves.
Prism, if you want a side project, adopt the cause of removing WTZ and fixing travel times in EVE. The benefit of making bookmarks easier to trade is a drop of irrelevant water compared to the sea of carebear tears and torrents of joy that would flow at the funeral of WTZ.
Thank you Viceroy for saving me from a lot of typing.
What he said.
Retro sig |
mkint
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Posted - 2011.08.13 18:31:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Viceroy WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.
There was one simple solution to instajumps that CCP ignored back then, and the same solution will work today for WTZ. Make it impossible to warp closer than 15km to gates. Bubbles already do this, just use the same code and the entire discussion about bookmarks becomes irrelevant. I find it hilarious that CCP coded bubbles as a counterweight to WTZ after removing instajumps, but failed to realize that simply adding the same mechanic to gates would have fixed instajumps in the first place without any need for bubbles or WTZ.
All the miserable carebears in this thread who are crying their eyes out and pooping their pants over the prospect of WTZ being removed and piracy/ganking becoming easier are automatically wrong because whilst before WTZ you could run a blockade with a properly fitted/sized fast ship and some planning, after WTZ the size and fitting of your ship became entirely irrelevant thanks to bubbles.
The primary reason why WTZ broke the game though isn't about travel safety. Ultimately, WTZ didn't make travel so much safer as much as it made it simpler and dumber (greater sins by far). Before WTZ smart people would scout ahead and avoid trouble, as they do now. The unprepared and stupid would die. The difference was the extent to which you could prepare (using a smaller and faster ship to run blockades vs. just waiting because there is a bubble) or take risks (running blockade = variable chance of dying based on your setup and the enemy vs. jumping into a bubble = 99% instadeath). It just became a simpler equation with WTZ, which made the game worse and the instant-gratification crowd extremely happy.
No, the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting. Instead we got a dose of the treadmill & instant-gratification culture that proliferates certain games with goddamn elves and dwarves.
Prism, if you want a side project, adopt the cause of removing WTZ and fixing travel times in EVE. The benefit of making bookmarks easier to trade is a drop of irrelevant water compared to the sea of carebear tears and torrents of joy that would flow at the funeral of WTZ.
Thank you Viceroy for saving me from a lot of typing.
What he said.
Yeah! Remove Jump Drives and Jump Bridges! I agree!
Prism: if you want a project, how about making warp speed matter?
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FeralShadow
NME1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 18:58:00 -
[154]
i think just removing all bookmarks would be perfect. people would fight more, people would cooperate more, and not be able to just sit in the middle of nowhere all day long. Probe for plexes, do plexes, people probe for you while you're doing it, there's already more than enough options for warp spots if you're being chased, because you have every distance on every object in space that you can warp to, multitudes of moons, bunkers, open plex beacons, customs offices... all of it. For people to say that taking away bookmarks is a bad thing because "where will you go for sniping" or "where will you go for safety", you warp to the gates at 100k if you want to snipe. You warp to planets or moons or customs offices or any other of the multitude of objects for safety. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:12:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 13/08/2011 19:17:56
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon the only ones complaining are just lazy pirate-wannabes like the OP.
this. Originally by: Ingvar Angst If we could drag bookmarks into the chat window, and right-click to add bookmark on BMs in the chat window that would make life so much easier.
and this. Originally by: Ingvar Angst ITT: Tears of the unadaptable and failed ePirates.
and this Originally by: Tinilya Yeah, WTZ should be removed because I just love wasting more time doing menial tasks in Eve.
and this .
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Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:15:00 -
[156]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
even having said this, it's amazing how many posters ("trolls") deliberately or with willful, retarded abandon misinterpret your intention :) .
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:21:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Viceroy WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.
There was one simple solution to instajumps that CCP ignored back then, and the same solution will work today for WTZ. Make it impossible to warp closer than 15km to gates. Bubbles already do this, just use the same code and the entire discussion about bookmarks becomes irrelevant. I find it hilarious that CCP coded bubbles as a counterweight to WTZ after removing instajumps, but failed to realize that simply adding the same mechanic to gates would have fixed instajumps in the first place without any need for bubbles or WTZ.
All the miserable carebears in this thread who are crying their eyes out and pooping their pants over the prospect of WTZ being removed and piracy/ganking becoming easier are automatically wrong because whilst before WTZ you could run a blockade with a properly fitted/sized fast ship and some planning, after WTZ the size and fitting of your ship became entirely irrelevant thanks to bubbles.
The primary reason why WTZ broke the game though isn't about travel safety. Ultimately, WTZ didn't make travel so much safer as much as it made it simpler and dumber (greater sins by far). Before WTZ smart people would scout ahead and avoid trouble, as they do now. The unprepared and stupid would die. The difference was the extent to which you could prepare (using a smaller and faster ship to run blockades vs. just waiting because there is a bubble) or take risks (running blockade = variable chance of dying based on your setup and the enemy vs. jumping into a bubble = 99% instadeath). It just became a simpler equation with WTZ, which made the game worse and the instant-gratification crowd extremely happy.
No, the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting. Instead we got a dose of the treadmill & instant-gratification culture that proliferates certain games with goddamn elves and dwarves.
Prism, if you want a side project, adopt the cause of removing WTZ and fixing travel times in EVE. The benefit of making bookmarks easier to trade is a drop of irrelevant water compared to the sea of carebear tears and torrents of joy that would flow at the funeral of WTZ.
Thank you Viceroy for saving me from a lot of typing.
What he said.
Yes, remove jump drives, please.
Cue Raidendot failure 30 seconds later.
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Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:32:00 -
[158]
Originally by: mkint
Yeah! Remove Jump Drives and Jump Bridges! I agree!
Me too. And jump clones aswell.
Retro sig |
Meryl SinGarda
Caldari Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:33:00 -
[159]
No. Fly safe, Die hard |
Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:34:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Viceroy WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.
There was one simple solution to instajumps that CCP ignored back then, and the same solution will work today for WTZ. Make it impossible to warp closer than 15km to gates. Bubbles already do this, just use the same code and the entire discussion about bookmarks becomes irrelevant. I find it hilarious that CCP coded bubbles as a counterweight to WTZ after removing instajumps, but failed to realize that simply adding the same mechanic to gates would have fixed instajumps in the first place without any need for bubbles or WTZ.
All the miserable carebears in this thread who are crying their eyes out and pooping their pants over the prospect of WTZ being removed and piracy/ganking becoming easier are automatically wrong because whilst before WTZ you could run a blockade with a properly fitted/sized fast ship and some planning, after WTZ the size and fitting of your ship became entirely irrelevant thanks to bubbles.
The primary reason why WTZ broke the game though isn't about travel safety. Ultimately, WTZ didn't make travel so much safer as much as it made it simpler and dumber (greater sins by far). Before WTZ smart people would scout ahead and avoid trouble, as they do now. The unprepared and stupid would die. The difference was the extent to which you could prepare (using a smaller and faster ship to run blockades vs. just waiting because there is a bubble) or take risks (running blockade = variable chance of dying based on your setup and the enemy vs. jumping into a bubble = 99% instadeath). It just became a simpler equation with WTZ, which made the game worse and the instant-gratification crowd extremely happy.
No, the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting. Instead we got a dose of the treadmill & instant-gratification culture that proliferates certain games with goddamn elves and dwarves.
Prism, if you want a side project, adopt the cause of removing WTZ and fixing travel times in EVE. The benefit of making bookmarks easier to trade is a drop of irrelevant water compared to the sea of carebear tears and torrents of joy that would flow at the funeral of WTZ.
This. Eve has become too small.
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:41:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Viceroy
[...] the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting.
This. Just. Nails. it. down. perfectly.
HABIT
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.08.13 19:41:00 -
[162]
How about this instead, guaranteed to end lazy gate camper whines once and for all!
I propose that CCP make NPC drakes that just roam around in space, they are on autopilot, they have basic meta 1 / t1 equipment that they buy from the market, they will continue to roam until they get caught, when they get caught, they type generic smack in local.
Maybe someone could even make a Flash game involving gatecamping, I'm sure theres a nice profit margin in it involved seeing as some people pay $15 a month for this!! You click on the red dots when they jump through the gate. When there are reports of 1/2 or more red dots than the size of your camp you must click the 'safe up and smack' button. The difficulty of the game would gradually decrease with less time intervals between the reports and clicking the 'safe up and smack' button, and the red dots get faster. Red dots that escape increase the difficulty level faster, and you lose the game when you get caught by the gang 1/2 your size.
---
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.13 20:40:00 -
[163]
Haha, nice troll Suitonia.
HABIT
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Krakaan Byzantia
Gallente Bolt Action Drive by The Imperial Senate
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Posted - 2011.08.14 05:33:00 -
[164]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text.
Supported, especially annoying in WH space. -------------------------------------------------- This world is kill or be killed never forget it. |
Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.14 16:31:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Suitonia How about this instead, guaranteed to end lazy gate camper whines once and for all!
I propose that CCP make NPC drakes that just roam around in space, they are on autopilot, they have basic meta 1 / t1 equipment that they buy from the market, they will continue to roam until they get caught, when they get caught, they type generic smack in local.
Maybe someone could even make a Flash game involving gatecamping, I'm sure theres a nice profit margin in it involved seeing as some people pay $15 a month for this!! You click on the red dots when they jump through the gate. When there are reports of 1/2 or more red dots than the size of your camp you must click the 'safe up and smack' button. The difficulty of the game would gradually decrease with less time intervals between the reports and clicking the 'safe up and smack' button, and the red dots get faster. Red dots that escape increase the difficulty level faster, and you lose the game when you get caught by the gang 1/2 your size.
Gate camps exist for more than noob fit Drakes. 2011.05.28 18:22:00
Victim: hi Corp: State Protectorate Alliance: Unknown Faction: Caldari State Destroyed: Raven Navy Issue System: Ihakana Security: 0.4 Damage Taken: 38918
Involved parties:
Name: hi Security: -9.9 Corp: hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: 425mm Railgun II Damage Done: 9200
Name: hi Security: -2.4 Corp: hi Alliance: hi Faction: NONE Ship: Maelstrom Weapon: Maelstrom Damage Done: 8588
Name: hi (laid the final blow) Security: -10.0 Corp: hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Bhaalgorn Weapon: Dark Blood Mega Pulse Laser Damage Done: 6731
Name: Alp Tarkhan Security: -8.1 Corp: hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: Megathron Damage Done: 6665
Name: hi Security: -6.2 Corp: hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Machariel Weapon: 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Damage Done: 3325
Name: Ildryn Security: 0.1 Corp: X Inc. Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Broadsword Weapon: Broadsword Damage Done: 2812
Name: hi Security: -9.6 Corp: hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Damnation Weapon: Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Damage Done: 899
Name: hi Security: -5.7 Corp: hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: Megathron Damage Done: 698
Name: Hi Security: -9.8 Corp: Hi Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Arazu Weapon: 650mm Medium Gallium I Cannon Damage Done: 0
Destroyed items:
Capacitor Flux Coil II Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Qty: 3 Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Large Capacitor Control Circuit I, Qty: 3 Shield Recharger II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile, Qty: 120 Hammerhead I, Qty: 7 (Drone Bay)
Dropped items:
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Expanded Cargohold II, Qty: 2 Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Qty: 4 Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II, Qty: 2 Capacitor Flux Coil II, Qty: 135 (Cargo) Power Diagnostic System II Dread Guristas Large Graviton Smartbomb Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile, Qty: 90 Hammerhead I, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay)
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.14 17:38:00 -
[166]
Oh dear Ildryn, not to smart I see.
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Oglyn
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Posted - 2011.08.14 17:41:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Dub Step Oh dear Ildryn, not to smart I see.
Irony post is ironic.
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Smendrik Von'Smendle
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Posted - 2011.08.14 19:19:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Smendrik Von''Smendle on 14/08/2011 19:26:15 Edited by: Smendrik Von''Smendle on 14/08/2011 19:20:04 I really think the BM system should be implimented for Cov-Ops ships/Scout ships only.
1. Remove BM sytem as implimented eliminating the DB/crashing aspect.
2. New High Slot module Advanced Computer Navigational System (ACNS). Requires skill Advanced Navigation(x5). Useable on scout ships/cov-op ships only. Skill description:Skill at using the ACNS. Each level allows for 50 extra markers stored in the ACNS memory banks.
3. Make the BM shared through the right click menu as a fleet broadcast only. No worries about mega copying of BMs here.
Yes I know this encourages even more ALT producing but really that is what EVE utility is about...ALT shipmakers ALT Corp Management ALT Cynos ALT xxx.
To create an even greater churn rate of LP, create a new LP status item similar to the charters to build POS's in high sec. Call it warp beacons. Then Corps could use those beacons and 'desposit' them into the stargates/warp points(Belts/Planets/Moons) allowing their corp members the ability to warp to these beacons. Good for only a local area of space. Limited time frame use.
Edit. The beacons would be for warp to 0 capability only. So yea I am for the OP idea with the addons mentioned in this post.
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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.08.14 21:30:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: CCP Prism X I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
even having said this, it's amazing how many posters ("trolls") deliberately or with willful, retarded abandon misinterpret your intention :)
this
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I'll tell you what I believe we should never sell; Anything that messes with the competitive balance of the game. No + stat ammo, no + stat ships and anything of that type. |
Zor Rilla
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Posted - 2011.08.14 23:37:00 -
[170]
I play since 2008, so i never knew that big EVE without WTZ, but I think some of the points of not having it, like the massive reduction of travel times... And thinking about this i had an idea that could be interesting:
Add a warp delay, let's imagine it's time required for the ship navigation device to prepare the warp. If you wait this delay you warp at 0 of the location. If you force the warp before the delay ends, warp would be inaccurate leaving you at distance of the objective. The sooner you force the warp, the bigger distance, or bigger randomness.
Big ships could have less delay (more room for computers), balanced by the bigger align time. This could bring some interesting situations in pvp, specially in fleet fights. Would be cool if mods or rigs could reduce delay or randomess, making travel fits important again.
My 2 cents
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Seamus Donohue
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.15 04:13:00 -
[171]
Regarding travel times, any long warp is going to have the 5-second exponential ramp-up at the start of a warp and the 20-second ramp-down at the end of the warp. Variations in warp speed, therefore, don't change travel times much because having 6 times the warp speed of another ship doesn't shave off any of the 25 seconds of overhead. Travel times, however, will become significantly different if fast-warping ships can also get through the ramp-up and ramp-down faster.
Regarding bookmarks, first recall that the Tyrannis Deepsafe Limit is "the most distant celestial from the local star, plus 20 astronomical units". So, if the celestial object furthest from the star is 67 AU from the sun, then no player can warp to a point more than 87 AU from the sun. Ideally, I'd like to see bookmarks operate as follows: 1) Bookmarks are managed client-side, with the player able to create arbitrary coordinates for any bookmark (within the Tyrannis Deepsafe Limit). 2) When the client tells the server to warp the player to a set of coordinates, the server makes sure that the coordinates are within the Tyrannis Deepsafe Limit. If it's outside the limit, then the server instead warps the player to the closest point on the Limit (that way, you don't have players at 80,000 AU from the nearest celestial, again). 3) Bookmarks can be transmitted in any chat channel, corp bulletin, EVEMail, or similar. _____ SURVIVOR of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries R-I-P
|
Posted - 2011.08.15 04:59:00 -
[172]
I tried to ignore this thread, but i'm going to have to weigh in here:
I think there should be a golden rule when looking at making tweaks and changes to Eve in one direction or another; the reason for making such changes should never be because you fail at PvP.
If Eve is too hard for you OP, go play something else, maybe something with ponies...
I guess this is going to be the new generic fail-wanabe-hisec-carebear-pvper whine thread, now that they got their way with unscanable ships.
You fail, so whine to CCP because its too hard. It'll be enough to make my freakin' eyes bleed from the sheer boredom of it all. ____________________________________ Preserved for all time, :::The Thread::: |
Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.15 05:07:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Desert Ice78 I tried to ignore this thread, but i'm going to have to weigh in here:
I think there should be a golden rule when looking at making tweaks and changes to Eve in one direction or another; the reason for making such changes should never be because you fail at PvP.
If Eve is too hard for you OP, go play something else, maybe something with ponies...
I guess this is going to be the new generic fail-wanabe-hisec-carebear-pvper whine thread, now that they got their way with unscanable ships.
You fail, so whine to CCP because its too hard. It'll be enough to make my freakin' eyes bleed from the sheer boredom of it all.
I'm not sure anywhere in your rantings I could find anything that relates to a rational opinion on warp to 15.
Can you clarify? How are ppl associating this to people that suck at pvp? Is it gate camps? I mean, unless you live your life in hisec with the scary popular bottlenecks to .4 being the only pvp you've seen or heard of, that is ******ed.
It's not about making life easier for any given play style, it's about making the game, space, larger. Restoring what was to anyone that played then an obviously better environment. The fact everyone instantly lands on an object was not intended for this game and has had detrimental effects since it's implementation.
Travel was the only thing that was a problem.... Bookmarks are the only reason CCP did it. A revisiting of the issue could restore the larger space aspect without revisiting the downsides.
Also, nerf the crap out of jump bridges.
And Jump clones should face a range barrier (force multiple jumps to go extreme distances)
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Kro0k
Gallente EVE Evacuation
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Posted - 2011.08.15 05:35:00 -
[174]
Its the ****ing future, we are in spaceships, we can warp where ever we want |
mkint
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Posted - 2011.08.15 05:39:00 -
[175]
Oh, since we're making stupid suggestions, I want a cloaking device that lets me transition from gatecloak to regular cloak without an un-cloaked phase. Oh, and I want it covops style. And I want to fit it on any ship I choose. And I want it to only be usable by people with +5.0 sec status. And I want it to include a 5 AU no-cyno-needed jump drive. All of these are better ideas than removing WTZ.
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Somatic Neuron
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Posted - 2011.08.15 05:43:00 -
[176]
IMHO, a FTL spaceship should be able to know the coordinates of a static gate, and WTZ in the first place. I think after you jump, you should load the system, in warp and land at the destination gate at some random distance, say 25-50km away from the gate. You would not enter the system until the client has received the destination grid information....
just saying :) ---------- |
TImora Fosty
Warhamsters
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Posted - 2011.08.15 06:19:00 -
[177]
Actually the OP is attention***** Timora Fosty
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Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries R-I-P
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Posted - 2011.08.15 07:56:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Desert Ice78 I tried to ignore this thread, but i'm going to have to weigh in here:
I think there should be a golden rule when looking at making tweaks and changes to Eve in one direction or another; the reason for making such changes should never be because you fail at PvP.
If Eve is too hard for you OP, go play something else, maybe something with ponies...
I guess this is going to be the new generic fail-wanabe-hisec-carebear-pvper whine thread, now that they got their way with unscanable ships.
You fail, so whine to CCP because its too hard. It'll be enough to make my freakin' eyes bleed from the sheer boredom of it all.
I'm not sure anywhere in your rantings I could find anything that relates to a rational opinion on warp to 15.
Can you clarify? How are ppl associating this to people that suck at pvp? Is it gate camps? I mean, unless you live your life in hisec with the scary popular bottlenecks to .4 being the only pvp you've seen or heard of, that is ******ed.
It's not about making life easier for any given play style, it's about making the game, space, larger. Restoring what was to anyone that played then an obviously better environment. The fact everyone instantly lands on an object was not intended for this game and has had detrimental effects since it's implementation.
Travel was the only thing that was a problem.... Bookmarks are the only reason CCP did it. A revisiting of the issue could restore the larger space aspect without revisiting the downsides.
Also, nerf the crap out of jump bridges.
And Jump clones should face a range barrier (force multiple jumps to go extreme distances)
From the OP:
"At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game..."
Could you even read and understand that before you bothered to fail reply... ____________________________________ Preserved for all time, :::The Thread::: |
Arkon Hjallian
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.15 09:16:00 -
[179]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text.
Prism X,
I think it's a foregone conclusion that the existing BM system is... old, tired and should have been euthanized many years ago.
My personal wishlist for a new BM system:
1. Corp bookmarks, like we have Corp Fittings and a corp role like Fitting Manager to handle them. 2. A reliable ability to warp fleet/wing/squad @ range to a bookmark 3. Ability to link a bookmark in a chat window / mail etc with the requisite ability to right click and 'add' or 'warp to' 4. A method of transferring bookmarks that doesn't bring the client to it's knees for tens of minutes. (Alternatively implement #1 and this likely wont be necessary for large values of bookmarks)
A small wishlist, but *if* there is ever a decision to work on the BM system, I would buy you a beer if you could get these incorporated :P
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.15 09:53:00 -
[180]
A bookmark "feature" I'd kill for is the ability to move them. a.k.a edit XYZ coordinates somehow. Same way as moving probes around I guess? Saves us from the hit or miss approach of dropping BMs mid warp. You know, how they rarely appears where you wanted them? The way I see it, in solar system map mode (where you can move proves?), even when fully zoomed in, a single cubic pixel can easily contain en entire planet. Heck, probably an entire star, in fact.
* Saves us from warping back and fort, dropping BMs like monkeys in hopes THIS ONE THIS TIME will be where it must be. Drop one, move it. done. * Won't allow for instant auto-magic perfect on-grid warpins. I've not yet decided whether this is a good or a bad thing. * Makes "off path" safespots too easy to make?
The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature. |
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LittleTerror
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Posted - 2011.08.15 11:49:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Viceroy WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.....
Good post and very valid points.
But damn there are some stupid comments in this thread and probably my own fault for not making myself more clear, I'm really not bothered about whether I can gank people on gates. I'm just ****ed at the fact people can just magically move stuff from A to B with almost no effort or planning but that's not even what ****es me off the most...
The thing that WTZ really killed was locality, back then everything was very local, each area had its own local pirates, anti pirates and bears and that made the game very immersive and what made the game special.
When WTZ was introduced it was like EVE lost its sole and ever since then its been in decline as more and more of it is dumbed down for the stupid and lazy.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.15 12:22:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 15/08/2011 12:22:41 If you want ship size to matter with travel speed you shouldnt do something stupid like removing WTZ, but adjust warp speeds and make warp acceleration (so not alligning, but the actual in warp acceleration) depend on your max warp speed (simply scaling it would work). Problem fixed.
Btw at raiden/pl saying it would make eve larger, how about first nerfing your travel methods: jump drives and titan bridges? They are alot faster than gate travel.
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Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.08.15 16:55:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Avon on 15/08/2011 16:55:55
Originally by: Furb Killer
Btw at raiden/pl saying it would make eve larger, how about first nerfing your travel methods: jump drives and titan bridges? They are alot faster than gate travel.
You must have missed the bit where I agreed they should be removed too, along with jump clones. I have no problem with that.
Speed of travel should relate to the flying speed of your ship, not the magical tweaking of warp speeds or alignment time.
With a larger differential in travel times for different ship types and the way they are fitted you:
1. Reduce the force projection of 0.0 alliances, restricting them to claiming only the space they populate and their immediate borders.
2. Make trading a viable career (also see below as to why)
3. Open up the possibility of regional development (in all security sectors). This could mean that, for example, Gallente characters get a bonus to manufacturing Gallente items (ships / blasters / holoreels :P) in Gallente stations, and a bigger bonus for doing it in the "right" station (owning corp) in Gallente space - also taking standings in to account. Stations could have reserves of priority factory slots for qualifying characters. You could introduce import tarrifs on goods from other factions based on the security rating of the system (tax evasion in low-sec ftw) thus reducing the profitablity of central homogeneous trade hubs. The potential for creating a more vibrant Eve is huge, but can't be done while travel times are trivial.
That is why I want WTZ gone, and I would happily give up jump clones and jump bridges to see it happen.
People often claim that the removal of WTZ is only called for by priates and gankers, but those people lack vision.
Retro sig |
Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.15 19:51:00 -
[184]
Not only no but hell no. This is a stupid idea. If your fail ass can't catch a target on the other side of the gate you don't deserve the kill.
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Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
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Posted - 2011.08.15 23:39:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Bologna Brains
Originally by: Maxpie Ah, this thread brings back memories...
-Sitting on a gate, bored to tears, waiting to pop the rare traveler who didn't have instas just so corpmates could feel good about themselves
-Spending countless hours making instas. I became quite good at it actually
-Not traveling anywhere in lowsec or 0.0 without first making instas in a shuttle
-Rarely leaving my home system in high-sec, unless I had instas to the destination, because of the utter boredom involved in traveling
No. Sorry. I doubt I'd still be playing this game if WTZ had not been introduced.
All of which you would never have to do if bookmarks are not creatable within 100km of jumpgates. ;)
You miss the point. If I have to sit there and watch my ship crawl to every gate/station, etc., I will want to cry. In fact, I'll probably cry out of boredom. After that I will evaluate whether watching my ship crawl into a station is more fun than watching paint dry. Clearly watching paint dry is more fun, so I will quit Eve and take up paint watching in my recreational time.
Stuff that adds boredom 99% of the time is not worth it, even if that other 1% of the time it gives some lazy noob a chance to get a gank he otherwise might have used his brain to obtain. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Oglyn
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Posted - 2011.08.16 00:45:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Maxpie
You miss the point. If I have to sit there and watch my ship crawl to every gate/station, etc., I will want to cry. In fact, I'll probably cry out of boredom. After that I will evaluate whether watching my ship crawl into a station is more fun than watching paint dry. Clearly watching paint dry is more fun, so I will quit Eve and take up paint watching in my recreational time.
Stuff that adds boredom 99% of the time is not worth it, even if that other 1% of the time it gives some lazy noob a chance to get a gank he otherwise might have used his brain to obtain.
What you are saying is that if travel was slow and boring you would be less likely to want to do it?
THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT.
Eve would be much better if people didn't travel so far - it has nothing to do with lulz for gankers.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.16 00:53:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Desert Ice78
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Desert Ice78 I tried to ignore this thread, but i'm going to have to weigh in here:
I think there should be a golden rule when looking at making tweaks and changes to Eve in one direction or another; the reason for making such changes should never be because you fail at PvP.
If Eve is too hard for you OP, go play something else, maybe something with ponies...
I guess this is going to be the new generic fail-wanabe-hisec-carebear-pvper whine thread, now that they got their way with unscanable ships.
You fail, so whine to CCP because its too hard. It'll be enough to make my freakin' eyes bleed from the sheer boredom of it all.
I'm not sure anywhere in your rantings I could find anything that relates to a rational opinion on warp to 15.
Can you clarify? How are ppl associating this to people that suck at pvp? Is it gate camps? I mean, unless you live your life in hisec with the scary popular bottlenecks to .4 being the only pvp you've seen or heard of, that is ******ed.
It's not about making life easier for any given play style, it's about making the game, space, larger. Restoring what was to anyone that played then an obviously better environment. The fact everyone instantly lands on an object was not intended for this game and has had detrimental effects since it's implementation.
Travel was the only thing that was a problem.... Bookmarks are the only reason CCP did it. A revisiting of the issue could restore the larger space aspect without revisiting the downsides.
Also, nerf the crap out of jump bridges.
And Jump clones should face a range barrier (force multiple jumps to go extreme distances)
From the OP:
"At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game..."
Could you even read and understand that before you bothered to fail reply...
not sure if you noticed but there are 7 pages of discussion here.
the crux of 'warp to 15' is not and should not be rooted in the idea that it's for gatecamp kills. the fact the op joins many others in being mistaken makes little difference.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.08.16 02:09:00 -
[188]
I am for this. It was one of the worst changes besides aoe titans and jump bridges.
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Krakaan Byzantia
Gallente Bolt Action Drive by The Imperial Senate
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Posted - 2011.08.16 02:26:00 -
[189]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Hey guys, thought I'd step in here with some info on the subject.
As has been mentioned, the reason for WTZ being introduced was the epic proliferation of WTZ bookmarks copied all over the database causing lockups on both clients and servers alike. Feel free to blame me for that as I was involved in some areas of that project and am quite used to being scolded by people I don't know. But as it stands the bookmark system is still in dire need of "refactoring" before anything like this could be reintroduced.
But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.
So after reading this yesterday I poked a bit around. I haven't completed said poking but so far I'm gathering that there is no new game design for any new bookmark system and before we have a new one the old code will not be touched as it needs to be deprecated, not refactor, as I touched on above. I'd love to make up for my part in this by solving the initial problem with a technical overhaul but for that we need a new game design. To get a new design we need resources and they are not available in the short term. I wouldn't want to rush anything so the short term was always out of the picture anyways.
Now, it's imperative that you understand that I'm a programmer and not in any position to decide on our roadmap or resource allocation. I'm just looking for a fun project I could get into at some point in the future if there's any excitement about it in the first place. And of course I cannot even promise that it would reintroduce 15Km warps. But I've been here for almost five years now and a whole lot of people owe me beers for favours that they've never ponied up.. so who knows?
At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text.
Link to the CSM Forums for this idea CLICK HERE FOR CSM TOPIC -------------------------------------------------- This world is kill or be killed never forget it. |
Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
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Posted - 2011.08.16 15:59:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Oglyn
Originally by: Maxpie
You miss the point. If I have to sit there and watch my ship crawl to every gate/station, etc., I will want to cry. In fact, I'll probably cry out of boredom. After that I will evaluate whether watching my ship crawl into a station is more fun than watching paint dry. Clearly watching paint dry is more fun, so I will quit Eve and take up paint watching in my recreational time.
Stuff that adds boredom 99% of the time is not worth it, even if that other 1% of the time it gives some lazy noob a chance to get a gank he otherwise might have used his brain to obtain.
What you are saying is that if travel was slow and boring you would be less likely to want to do it?
THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT.
Eve would be much better if people didn't travel so far - it has nothing to do with lulz for gankers.
So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that Eve will be more fun if travel is so tedious that people will tend not to go anywhere and just spend the bulk of their time in one system, or maybe even docked? If that's what you mean to say, I must disagree. Travel was soul crushingly boring prior to wtz. Frankly, it's pretty boring as it is now. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Navigators of the Abyss
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:24:00 -
[191]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
The root cause of your issue is that the warp system is broken, not the bookmarks.
In order for me to warp somewhere I have to have been there. Why? I'm an immortal space being that has billions/millions/thousands of isk.
It would go a long way to fixing the bookmark issue if ANY coordinates can be used (centered radially around the sun) to warp to any coordinate in the system.
Instead of warping to planet X, I'd warp to planet X at (X, Theta, Phi), the game would autopopulate those coordinates as "warp to" points in the GUI, but the GUI would allow for manual entry or system map mouse entry.
Bookmarks would then be nothing but text based inputs. (Similar to real aircraft lat long) On an airplane modern GUI's have copy paste functions that allow you to enter/tag a lat/long associated with that point. (Rather than store an object that has to be place in some ******ed cargo hold to be transferred)
Works in real life VERY well (It's my job to do stuff like this), why the hell not in eve?
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.16 19:13:00 -
[192]
WTZ is killing this game. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO THAT I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
Orian Okha
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Posted - 2011.08.17 14:11:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Lykouleon WTZ is killing this game.
And i thought that blobs and bots are killing this game. Hmm my mistake then
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.17 14:25:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Orian Okha
Originally by: Lykouleon WTZ is killing this game.
And i thought that blobs and bots are killing this game. Hmm my mistake then
No No its the vanity MT items that are killing the game.
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Spaceman Jack
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Posted - 2011.08.17 15:17:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Spaceman Jack on 17/08/2011 15:19:11
Interesting how you know people will potentially un-sub because of a WTZ removal - but you think you will have more targets. IMHO, fewer sub = fewer targets.
WTZ was introduced so that people who have responsibilities in real life can play the game without wasting 30% of their time maneuvering through gates. You will understand when you no longer have the luxury of spending 18 hours inside playing EVE and when you have even FEWER targets because people un-subbed.
Besides, the intro of WTZ never reduced my PVP fun.. so you are probably doing something wrong.
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LittleTerror
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Posted - 2011.08.18 16:59:00 -
[196]
Edited by: LittleTerror on 18/08/2011 17:01:18 I don't think that there should be WTZ in lowsec or null for all ships types, if people want to move 200 battleships from A to B they should either 1. build them on site 2. bridge them 3. move them in inside of cap ships.
Also people should not be able to just insta dock when being pursued in lawless space, it does not make sense that a large mass suddenly comes crashing to a halt against a big metal structure and simply vanishes.
Just saying like... |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:44:00 -
[197]
Removing WTZ unfairly punishes wormholers.
Yep, wormholers.
We never know where we'll have an exit system from day to day... I've had days where there's finally a low exit near high sec that's safe enough to take a hauler through and hey, LOOK! It's only 20 jumps from Jita!
Wormhole logistics are tough enough without adding ungodly amounts of travel time to the equation because a minority of people are butthurt that other ships can move faster around the game now.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Judge Ment
BOOM BOOM POW
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:59:00 -
[198]
Bookmarks FTW or simple alt account with small fast ship to warp to. But this sounds more like whine thread from campers or Pirating!
Well done ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions. |
Hicksimus
Gallente Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:19:00 -
[199]
I think you've made the mistake of posting an excellent point on a forum populated by carebears. Why do I say that, well if the people in here where in lowsec or nullsec they'd be busy doing something. Why am I here then, I live in a wormhole, I got bored went outside tried to kill a drake but they undocked a carrier and I'm bored again.
The old way was best it made it harder to simply infiltrate other people's space, it made movement of giant fleets harder especially fleets with giant ships, it was a tactic that was removed for general popularity amongst the morons(see most people in highsec). The least CCP could do is have lowsec and nullsec without wtz.
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Martin Skorn
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Posted - 2011.08.19 05:21:00 -
[200]
Nein Danke
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Kiran
Minmatar Knights of Azrael Anti-Social Outcast
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Posted - 2011.08.19 07:37:00 -
[201]
Oh god I remeber the days of warping to a gate 15km away. The mind numbing job of having to warp in from each and every gate or station and then travel 15km beyond the target object to get a bookmark where you could just warp to 0.
Just no, not again. I still have some of those bookmarks as well.
If you want to catch people I suggest a faster lock time.
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Gungnir Winder
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Posted - 2011.08.19 09:11:00 -
[202]
I'd love to see WTZ gone, sometimes is quite frustrating trying to get a fight, especially with the ****ing big ass gates we got nowdays. You also have to consider the fact that when we had warp to 15, the gameplay was completely different : the speed, the webs etc etc.
To be honest I don't know how well this change could fit into the current version of the game, one thing is certain, avoiding a fight has become WAY too easy.
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