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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Thanatos Marathon
Phoibe Enterprises
377
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:45:13 -
[1351] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.
Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists. You really are well beyond the bounds now my friend. You have exposed your true purpose to simply troll.
Sorry Bro, you just got Crosi'd. |
Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
6
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:47:44 -
[1352] - Quote
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10877
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:52:40 -
[1353] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...
Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Thanatos Marathon
Phoibe Enterprises
377
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:53:28 -
[1354] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zemfadel wrote:So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you... Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?
Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1279
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:54:35 -
[1355] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zemfadel wrote:So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you... Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway? Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.
Im sorry but there are better places than these forums to teach people basic mechanics.
E-UNI springs to mind. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10877
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:55:48 -
[1356] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zemfadel wrote:So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you... Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway? Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.
For about five seconds, I guess. But that's too short of a time window to see without using a d-scan bot anyway.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Thanatos Marathon
Phoibe Enterprises
378
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Posted - 2014.12.20 23:57:45 -
[1357] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zemfadel wrote:So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you... Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway? Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole. For about five seconds, I guess. But that's too short of a time window to see without using a d-scan bot anyway.
rofl, its called clicking your mouse button. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10877
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:00:32 -
[1358] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.
Well, that's what you say, but it's a pretty big coincidence if you can be clicking d-scan literally constantly and spot the guy when he randomly pops in. I honestly doubt that you do that literally once a second, every second. If so I'd like to see your CTS surgery scars, lol.
Now, I would easily believe that wormholers use d-scan bots, however. I've known that to be a thing for a long time, and I suspect having that taken away from them is a large portion of why some are so upset about this.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
864
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:02:54 -
[1359] - Quote
Dude, do you think you guys could rebalance a ship class without introducing a new gimmick attribute that subverts core gameplay mechanics?
I'd strongly encourage you not to make any hull immune to d-scans, but even if you are dead set on doing this, combat recons are the wrong hulls to give it to. Why in the name of all that is holy would you give the steath bonus to the brawl-y hull instead of the sneaky one? The whole point of making a distinction between combat- and force recons is that one gives up combat abilities to evade detection, while the other rolls the same support abilities into a class that's also capable of fighting, but at the cost of not being sneaky.
The force recons could benefit from the d-scan immunity (allowing clever pilots to decloak whilst in warp to a target in order to wait out their recal timer without giving up the element of surprise), but would still have significant detractors (****-poor DPS, reduced tank, poorer slot layouts, etc) which would leave combat recons the superior choice for some usage scenarios. If you give the bonus to the combat recons, suddenly the only reason to use a force recon is if you want to be crossing on and off grids unseen or if you want to light covert cynos. Any time that you don't need to be entering grids, observing, and then leaving again without breaking cloak, a combat recon will be the better choice. You guys keep talking a strong game regarding "meaningful choices": but it doesn't seem like there's much of a choice here.
To reiterate, I think the entire concept of d-scan immunity is an absolutely terrible idea (if you want to move around without being seen on scans, that's what covert cloaking hulls are for). Please don't do this! But if you have to, at least give the absurd new bonus to a ship that can't also murderzone things by itself. |
Nyjil Lizaru
Aideron Robotics
34
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:07:42 -
[1360] - Quote
Ehud Gera wrote:@CCP Rise. Can we get that explanation soon about the reasoning behind why you think Dscan immunity won't be OP? I've been waiting with bated breath. Especially (since you haven't released it yet), can you explain how it won't be OP in regards to small gang and solo?This is really important to a lot of us. Thanks so much in advance!!! Ehud PS: Playerbase includes many who want a balanced opportunity in Solo, Small Gang, and even those who just like to farm in WH's. I LIKE DOING WORK TO CATCH MY TARGETS. PPS: Perhaps ask guys like Wingspan TT if things like bomb deliveries would be as fun if pilots didn't have to work so hard to catch their targets. Cloaked ganking is it's own reward, Dscan Immunity is the easy button.
I, too, would like to see some reasoning for the change from CCP. It's odd that there has been no design purpose for this change given.
Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
177
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:07:46 -
[1361] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.
Well, that's what you say, but it's a pretty big coincidence if you can be clicking d-scan literally constantly and spot the guy when he randomly pops in. I honestly doubt that you do that literally once a second, every second. If so I'd like to see your CTS surgery scars, lol. Now, I would easily believe that wormholers use d-scan bots, however. I've known that to be a thing for a long time, and I suspect having that taken away from them is a large portion of why some are so upset about this.
Yes I'm upset because my prey can no longer use dscan bots to prevent me from killing them. Eh?
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Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
263
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:08:26 -
[1362] - Quote
The more I think about this, the less dramatic change it actually is. Yes, it affects some things more than others, but overall the D-scan immunity is a fresh new thing that will sprout new tactics, which is always awesome.
Bring it on and keep it up CCP :)
My Lachs are ready.
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Angelo Schilling
NerdHerd The Explicit Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:08:50 -
[1363] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:Pelea Ming wrote:I love all the bitching from the WH residents. Duh, they still have to probe your ass out, and your d-scan still picks the damned probes up! If your still on grid for the recon to find you by that point, your blown up even now, since you failed to get safe while they were probing you down!
Other then that, I do agree that overall, the Pilgrim still fails to shine. Typical answer from a guy that doesn't have any clue how WH space is working. Let me enlight you : YOU DON'T NEED TO USE PROBES TO SCAN PPL IN WH IF YOUR GOOD AT USING D-SCAN. kthxbye
YOU DO NEED TO USE PROBES IF THEYRE IN A SIG NOT AN ANOM
kthxbye |
Mei Khlolov
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
6
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:31:35 -
[1364] - Quote
Gonna weigh in on this. Dscan immunity is not going to be broken.
It's effectively a different type of cloaking.
Cloaking: + invisible on grid + Cannot be probed or dscanned
- Can be spotted on dscan while moving through gates/holes. - targeting delay on decloak - uses a highslot
Dscan immunity + Invisible even during gate/hole movement + no decloak delay/highslot use
- always visible on grid (can be caught by gatecamps) - can be probed - warp deceleration acts as targeting delay
Both styles have their advantages and disadvantages. The thing where Dscan immunity really excels is going through acceleration gates, undetected, but given the deceleration time, anyone even semi-aligned should still escape alive. As for things waiting inside plexes for you, well, we already have rapier gangs hiding in plexes. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1279
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:54:37 -
[1365] - Quote
An area of effect doomsday really excels at roflstomping everything on grid. Doesnt mean its balanced or even a good idea. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10882
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Posted - 2014.12.21 00:59:04 -
[1366] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:An area of effect doomsday really excels at roflstomping everything on grid. Doesnt mean its balanced or even a good idea.
It's also an order of magnitude's difference to what is being discussed here. Gross exaggeration does not help your case.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1279
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Posted - 2014.12.21 01:08:51 -
[1367] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:An area of effect doomsday really excels at roflstomping everything on grid. Doesnt mean its balanced or even a good idea. It's also an order of magnitude's difference to what is being discussed here. Gross exaggeration does not help your case.
I think you will find i drew no comparison.
I just illustrated a situation where ambitious design decisions are made but failed to have the required foresight. I realise this is very hard concept for you to understand. Dont exert yourself over it. I was really commenting for people with a higher functional capacity. |
Lug Muad'Dib
Wise Humans Sword
26
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Posted - 2014.12.21 01:08:57 -
[1368] - Quote
I still don't see why D-Scan immunity isn't a stupid mechanic and we still don't know the drawback.
D-Scan immunity is dumb.
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Helene Fidard
14
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Posted - 2014.12.21 01:15:55 -
[1369] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Dude, do you think you guys could rebalance a ship class without introducing a new gimmick attribute that subverts core gameplay mechanics? I for one am eagerly awaiting the update where the absence of gimmickry itself becomes the gimmick. |
Mei Khlolov
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
10
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Posted - 2014.12.21 01:19:50 -
[1370] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: I think you will find i drew no comparison.
I just illustrated a situation where ambitious design decisions are made but failed to have the required foresight. I realise this is very hard concept for you to understand. Dont exert yourself over it. I was really commenting for people with a higher functional capacity.
Its a good thing smart people like you make all the decisions for us dumb folks |
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MachineOfLovingGrace
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.12.21 01:29:13 -
[1371] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.
I'm really confused you think this is overall a good idea. People don't work that way in my experience.
Today I was on the recieving end of a similar situation. DSCAN a small plex, Tormentor inside, activate gate, the exact moment I cannot cancel warp anymore (really good timing, I must admit) *poof* a Griffin appears on DSCAN. Permajammed, gf. A few minutes later, warp into a plex with a single ship on DSCAN - 2 Griffins. Permajammed, gf.
However, the presence of cloaking devices does *not* change my evaluation of risk. I am exactly as risk-averse as I was before. I am, however, frustrated that I had to watch my ship killed without any chance or fight at all, and a few new people on my red "ECM w*cough*e, don't engage" list. I will think very hard to do any PVP with these guys in local. Because I'd be stupid If I didn't. So less fights for me and for them in the long run. Granted, I'm just one guy, but this effect adds up, I'd think.
I'm not whining about ECM (death to ECM, though), I'm trying to make the point - You will *not* change people by game mechanics. If they are so risk averse that they do not engage in certain situations, forcing this situations on them will get them to a) work hard to get enough information (in this dicussion that would be more alts/scouts needed, probing, etc.) or b) they will just stop doing the risky thing, if this doesn't work or becomes too tedious. You will just make the game worse for those people. At *best*, you'll keep a zero sum of player satisfaction. I know that I do what I can to avoid cloakies (and will do with recons), but if it becomes too tedious of forces me into a playstyle I don't like - I'll stop doing this. This is only a game, after all. |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
152
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Posted - 2014.12.21 01:58:58 -
[1372] - Quote
Holy **** -- immune to directional scanning?! That's really strong and makes the idea of soloing in a combat recon pretty tantalizing. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
434
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Posted - 2014.12.21 02:37:25 -
[1373] - Quote
Also might notice that this doesn't change a thing in WH sites since the current meta is to use an insta warp sabre that snares you just as surely as any Lachesis or Arazu. As it is an Arazu / lach has normally a 60km point range with a RF point that costs a 140mils a pop, you need heat & boosts to get further (72km's with heat), any other point has 'only' 56/67,5km base range.
Obviously normal 'caught from the site' -scheme doesn't involve booster alts because they would already have to be in the system to provide boosts for the points so 72km's is the absolute maximum you can squeeze out from a point range without rigs, implants or other special factors that I might have forgotten to mention.
That was to clear up some of the '100km Lach point' drama lamas.
Also current EHP in any reasonably fast moving Arazu fit is somewhere in 30k ehp (lach has about 51k in shield fit) which isn't much when we're talking about PvP buffer fits. The furious DPS of an Arazu is somewhere between non existent and laughable, lachesis does significantly better on the DPS front but medium rails only have around 40km's maximum range without T2 ammo (with a super gimped dps) so you still aren't going to be killed from a maximum point range. Also a lach has a current max MWD speed range of 1500m/s which with a 6,7s align time means that running from a Lach really shouldn't be your main concern assuming you know how to run from a point and assuming that the Lach didn't land under 27km's from you to use it's scram.
Also currently Arazu with RF point fit goes for around 400mils and Lachesis is in the same ball bark so it's not like maximum range fitted gal recons are suddenly going to be everywhere considering how easy they are to kill.
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Panther X
High Flyers The Kadeshi
27
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Posted - 2014.12.21 03:15:34 -
[1374] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:I predict Ishtars: Online will become Combat Recons: Online. Still better than Ishtars Online.
ANYTHING is better than Ishtars Online.
[b]Sick liaisons raised this monumental mark
The sun sets forever over Blackwater Park[/b]
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
275
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Posted - 2014.12.21 04:34:27 -
[1375] - Quote
Automatic D-scan immunity for combat recons, the more I think about it, is a terrible idea.
Not only does it hurt solo play, but you get hac resists and people thinking they will be forced to fit probe launchers to their vessels everytime if they don't wish to warp to somewhere that is camped by a hundred force recons. You are basically forcing people into certain ship fittings to avoid getting caught, cloaked vessels as a person pointed out, have to maneuver into position carefully in order to not get caught. FW plexes full of force recons, thanks for ruining fw.
You do not understand player behavior completely? Understandable. But this half-thought up idea means that someone at CCP hasn't really been paying attention to player behavior at all. Certainly havn't been playing the game on TQ TO understand at any rate. This idea lacks any application of foresight, a gross failure of game design. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1664
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Posted - 2014.12.21 04:44:24 -
[1376] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.
Well, that's what you say, but it's a pretty big coincidence if you can be clicking d-scan literally constantly and spot the guy when he randomly pops in. I honestly doubt that you do that literally once a second, every second. If so I'd like to see your CTS surgery scars, lol. Now, I would easily believe that wormholers use d-scan bots, however. I've known that to be a thing for a long time, and I suspect having that taken away from them is a large portion of why some are so upset about this. Well this just says that there need to be MANY more ways to mess with d-scan. Clicking the same button every few seconds for intel is just stupid game design.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
159
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Posted - 2014.12.21 04:52:34 -
[1377] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:hellokittyonline wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?
And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow. Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak. Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.
Gold!
(they'll just spam activate and escape your 'camp')
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1279
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Posted - 2014.12.21 04:56:03 -
[1378] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:hellokittyonline wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?
And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow. Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak. Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps. Gold! (they'll just spam activate and escape your 'camp')
This dude being caught in a lie is painful enough without people pointing it out squattingmut.
Though it does look like he killed a gnosis of yours recently. Convo me if you want tips on how to slide gates :) |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3653
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Posted - 2014.12.21 05:12:22 -
[1379] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Azzie Stardust
Unimpressed Collectors
2
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Posted - 2014.12.21 06:24:53 -
[1380] - Quote
Dscan immunity is not absolute, recons still probable right? It would be great be able to safe (and load) probe positions in system. |
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