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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2008.10.23 13:38:00 -
[1]
This is the news weÆve all been waiting for! That whale of a ship, the Orca, will hit Singularity soon, and CCP Chronotis has written a dev blog on this long-awaited, upcoming addition to the game.
ChronotisÆ blog includes not only extensive details about the Orca, but a screenshot as well. You can read all about it by pointing your browser here.
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Miasia
Konstrukteure der Zukunft DOMINION.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 13:48:00 -
[2]
Nice one!
I need it
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.23 13:56:00 -
[3]
**** yeah!
Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar |
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 14:49:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Toramt What are the prereqs for the Industrial Command Ships skill?
Read the Devblog?
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Great Smirnov
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Posted - 2008.10.23 14:56:00 -
[5]
I can only agree, what the point of learning mining barge lvl 5 for a multi-purpose hauler? Very big minus. Make it transport ships 4 for example or any of racial industrial to 5. Squad of light drones are definitely nor enough to get rid of belt spawns. Big minus. Hulk can launch a squad of medium drones and is smaller ship. C'mon, there are even battleship size respawns and this is a support ship for defenseless miners. Tree med slots are not really enough to maintain a shield tank. Also a minus. Booster and 2 invuls? Barely a tank. If it is supposed due to tractor bonuses to salvage stuff then this is a laughter. 2 tractors and 1 salvager? Or 1 tractor and 2 salvagers? How long it will take to salvage a mission, 3-4 hours, one wreck by one? Completely inefficient. People using hurricane for salvage just because you can fit 4 tractors and 4 salvagers at the same time.
So what it should be good for? Nothing?
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Kiaya Zulu
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:01:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kiaya Zulu on 23/10/2008 15:05:03
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Toramt What are the prereqs for the Industrial Command Ships skill?
Read the Devblog?
I did. You too i guess, but you missed the point.
The prerequisites for Industrial Command Ships skill are not stated. Its a great question.
I would guess that some leadership skills could be included. Mining or industry are good options too. Maybe the devs will let us know.
Cheers
Btw - gotta get me one of those... Edit: Spelling
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Dunedon
Trans Nebula Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:02:00 -
[7]
As a mining support ship, 3 high slots don't cut it ... there are 3 mining links ... so I can EITHER get the gang links, or use a tractor and 2 of the 3 ... makes more sense to just add the 4th high-slot (and make sure there are enough med's to fit at least 2 command processors if it can't run multiple links).
I'm ok with it having a poor tank and small drone bay, it's really a high-sec ship and frigs/cruiser rats wouldn't even break it's basic shield tank I expect ... if you're in low or 0.0 you should be using a Rorqual to accomplish these goals.
------ WYSIWYG: I don't post with an Alt ... if I die in game for having an opinion, at least I know someone listened. - Dunedon |
Ewa White
White Omega
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:02:00 -
[8]
I find this very interesting ...
very nice ship ...
Ewa
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Jethro Jechonias
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Great Smirnov So what it should be good for?
Gang assistance and support for high sec mining.
Not sure where you got the idea that it was supposed to be a multi-purpose hauler, salvager or tank.
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:07:00 -
[10]
4 hi-sec slots would be useful for the gang assist modules AND tractor beam.
Other than that looks good.
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Great Smirnov
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:07:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Great Smirnov on 23/10/2008 15:12:15
Originally by: Dunedon
I'm ok with it having a poor tank and small drone bay, it's really a high-sec ship and frigs/cruiser rats wouldn't even break it's basic shield tank I expect ... if you're in low or 0.0 you should be using a Rorqual to accomplish these goals.
well, may be you forgot, but people do mine on missions in highsec and there definitelly battleship spawns, that kill ordinary hulks in seconds. In mining supporter mode it need to do both giving mining bonuses and combat support for shield boosting plus to kill battleships. Otherwise people will just use dominix like always, it can tank, it can support, it can kill spawns and haulers will haul the ore.
Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Gang assistance and support for high sec mining. Not sure where you got the idea that it was supposed to be a multi-purpose hauler, salvager or tank.
In high sec you still need combat support rather then mining boost. That doing dominixes tight now, they can tank and support and kill spawns, the only problem they have is the range of support modules. As for others it can haul ships like carrier, but can run high sec, which other haulers can not in this combination. It has bonuses for range and speed of tractors. What for you need such bonuses rather then to drag the wrecks to you for loot/salvage?
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:09:00 -
[12]
Hmm, I REALLY think this ship should get larger cargo than the Rorqual since it not have any jumpdrive. I could very well get specialized Cargo that ONLY can store ore (in order not to compete with freighters), and have a regular cargo with much more humble size than now so it can store other crap also (or skip the regular cargo completely so one get to use the Corp Hangar for that).
That's what would make this ship fill the gap of missing industrial ships in this game in my opinion. Unless it's gonna be a "make-empire-miners-happy-ship" only. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
Kaelei Torchwood
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:09:00 -
[13]
Great ship, been wanting a sub-capital for a while now, but I'm very disappointed about the requirement for Mining Barge 5. I do not mine and instead prefer to provide a support role as a Hauler (aka Logistics). I will often organize everything my miners will need by getting them ships and equipment to remote locations, this ship will perfectly fill this role of getting rigged ships out to a location and allowing me to support them if only it did not assume a miner would always be flying it.
Will there be another Sub-Capital ship that will cater more towards a logistics role instead of a miner role?
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Katana Seiko
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:10:00 -
[14]
The prices of Tritanium and Pyerite are rising... Is there an ETA for the time when the patch will hit TQ? --- "Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind." -Terry Pratchett |
Tergiminius
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:13:00 -
[15]
They should have made this an invent from the Rorqual, could have also made use of the tech 2 capital components then and helped that part of industry. As it stands, 1 bil for the bpo and a few cap components to build it, not much of an incentive for the bpc market, here's hoping at least they make it a couple weeks copy to prop up bpc prices |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:15:00 -
[16]
I'm guessing it will be able to us capital tractor beam also?
And yes the image is smoking..... (only if you never use that word to describe something ever again :P)
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Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:16:00 -
[17]
No mineral compression and no way to fit tractor beams when running the links (no point in it without running the links). I would say big fail. The corp hangar is nice for mining ops but it's still worth nothing in comparison to having compression lines like rorqual.
I would rather have Orca be small rorqual and than you can introduce a high sec carrier or whatever to fill the hauling needs for riged ships. All in all hugely dissapointing as only a glorified mining can. |
Montaire
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:26:00 -
[18]
Interesting.
Its good, it could use a larger corp hangar array, but its real good. |
Ikkajo
Minmatar Illudium Space Products
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:34:00 -
[19]
I'll agree with the others here that Barge V seems like the wrong pre-req for a non-mining ship. Transports V seems better for this, and also would encourage people to train up a skill that very few train beyond lvl1.
The rest though, looks great! I see the end of can flipping coming for everything except newbie systems :) |
Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:35:00 -
[20]
I'm not even an industrialist and this ship excites me, it will really revolutionise mining ops and make life a lot easier all round I am sure. Love the bonuses, just what I was expecting from this ship. |
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OMG ATITAN1
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:36:00 -
[21]
Edited by: OMG ATITAN1 on 23/10/2008 15:36:24 Im gonna hold in the rage about the silly comments being made here and just ask one question...Do you guys really need the capacitor mining link? Cuz if you do, well you have issues, if you dont, then put the bloody tractor beam there.
And a Rorq isnt a mining ship, did you all complain about its pre reqs too being mining based? I dont see the difference, its ORE thats what they do. |
xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:37:00 -
[22]
How does having a Corp Hangar Array affect cargo scanners and NPC customs ships? I see room for loopholes here. |
Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:38:00 -
[23]
Quote: Transports V seems better for this, and also would encourage people to train up a skill that very few train beyond lvl1.
QFT |
Tergiminius
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:39:00 -
[24]
Actually a role it will fill well is remote mining ops, I used to do this with a freighter, move to a juicy system with couple hulks & indies inside, clean it out then haul it all back to base. The downside was you couldn't take rigged hulks whereas this will let you. However, as people have stated, it needs more cargo hold or compression to transport those stripped systems back home. |
demonfurbie
Minmatar 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:39:00 -
[25]
id like to see a bigger drone bay maybe 75 m3 with 50 mb bandwith cause as it stands not it can only launch the same amount of drones as my ishkur
also maybe 1 more high 2 more mids would be nice 1 shield booster 2 hards and a scanner so it can tank some as well and cargo space for one freight container would be nice to (fully cargo rigged and expanded) |
jughernot
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:41:00 -
[26]
First of all, I want to congratulate CCP on excellent work with both the Rorqual and the Orca. I fly a Rorqual in 0.0 and love it. From what I've seen, the Orca looks like a great ship to be in the asteroid belt with the miners, and I'd prefer to keep my Rorqual in a POS due to it's pricetag and vulnerability.
I like most of the stats on the Orca that have been published. Cargo capacity, agility, price, skill requirements, and capabilities all seem to be spot on.
I think that the Orca should have at least a mediocre level of defense, say something about as tough as your average BC (Able to tank 0.0 BS spawns). 50mbps drone bandwidth should be a minimum imo, since 1) that's what the hulk has and 2) 5 mediums can kill at least the tackling rats in an NPC spawn, if not slowly kill the BSes. I would suggest 5-6 total mid slots, but nothing more than that seems to be needed.
It would be nice if it could use more than 1 gang link by default, especially since it is a command ship. An extra high slot would really help facilitate the use of gang links.
I would like to see the tractor range improved a bit, as I'm used to pulling in cans from 150km+ with the Rorqual. 70km is great, but I think 100km would be just perfect for the Orca.
Even though I fly a Rorqual, I can't wait to get my hands on an Orca. |
Sophie Daigneau
Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:41:00 -
[27]
What's the reasoning for no compression lines? Currently high-sec ores, veldspar specifically, are not worth compressing due to the logistics hassle of first having to move them to low-sec for the rorqual to compress. Null-sec regions rely heavily on imported trit from empire, and the orca could have been an ideal platform for compressing empire mined veldspar for resale in null-sec. With even half the compression slots of a rorqual it still wouldn't taken away from the rorqual's role. |
BlackHorizon
Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:42:00 -
[28]
Orcs in my Eve? |
Zareph
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:43:00 -
[29]
I still feel the Orca needs to be able to compress non Ref. Efficiency ores.
So Veld, Scordite, Omber, Pyroxes, anything that you can get to 4 with Refinery V, but not for RE V (ark, bist).
This would be a huge logistical fix for 0.0 folks. We could work with empire mining corps to compress up veld/scordite, all the good low end that are abundant in empire and move them out. |
Tobin Shalim
Vulcan Foundry A.X.I.S
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:49:00 -
[30]
As someone that has mostly taken the mining/production path in the game, I can say a "whohoo" for this ship, as it's something that I've been wanting to see for awhile now. However I can also see that there should be a few things tweaked with this puppy as well:
- Slots: you say it has less speed and less agility than a battleship, but it has far fewer slots and drone bandwidth capacity than even a cruiser. Slot count and bandwidth should be changed to be more in-line with a ship that size. With the slot limitations, we are barely effective as a mining Command Ship as we can't even fit all the mining links plus maintain tractor beams for the cans that we'll have to grab.
- Ore compression: with such a small cargohold you really can't hold that much ore, especially when you rank it up with an Iteron V5 with T2 expanded cargoholds on it. You can potentially reach up to a jetcan worth of space, if not more (number crunching with rigs show up to 45k). Without being able to run ore compression, you're really not getting much more cargo space for ore than a much cheaper ship to fit+skill+buy.
- Cargo space: as sorta stated for Ore compression, it's not a lot of cargo space that we get overall, since this is designed to be a mini freighter and all. You get a decent mining op going on with enough people, this thing will be filled in minutes. You can get the same amount of hauling capacity with a few people running Iteron V5's at a much cheaper cost than this one ship. A larger size in lieu of ore compression would be a lot better for those of us running the ship.
- Strip Miners: this mostly as an aside option...allow us to be able to fit strip miners, even if it's just the regular ones and not the Modulated's. Goes very well with the extra slots added in.
Now in fairness, I'm making these suggestions without actually haven flown one yet on SiSi, so I can't provide a fair and balanced perspective on it. Look forward to flying one soon though -----
Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
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Viktor Speranza
White Wolf Enterprises Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:51:00 -
[31]
Mining Foreman 3? That sounds a touch low. You need Mining Director for the mining warfare gang links. So why would you not need Mining Director for the Orca?
Also 3 high slots, good idea. Anymore and you will see mission runners using these to just salvage and not for their purpose. Anyhow only "Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization" is really of any use since its the only one that helps Ice Mining. The "Harvester Capacitor Efficiency" is really only needed in conjunction with the Laser Optimization because of the long cycle time on strip miners. So those 2 plus a tractor beam is the way to go.
There is nothing on this side or the other side of the EVE Gate to convince me that Mining Laser Field Enhancement is worth spitting on. IE: fix it. Come to Penirgman VII û Ministry of Internal Order Assembly Plant to apply for WWES! |
sdchew
Gallente Jazz Associates Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:57:00 -
[32]
If only it could haul 1 rigged Battleship/Marauder. Would make the perfect mission runner mobile HQ packing the mission ship, an unassembled salvage boat, all your ammo and modules. |
Xessej
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:58:00 -
[33]
I'm pretty sure I can use two low slots and 3 upgrade hardpoints to take 30k m3 well past 45km3 cargo capacity especially with +5% cargo cap per level of skill. |
Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:58:00 -
[34]
A cloak, a SS and you have a very nice mobile exploration/ ninja ratting mothership.
Could also have uses in high sec small gangs warfare |
Karbowiak
Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:59:00 -
[35]
PVP Orca here i come!
srs, people pvp in hulks - so i can pvp in an Orca!. I'LL TAKE 3 PLEASE!
edit:// in all seriousness, its a beauty - just as i'd have wanted a hauler to look. But its not a hauler, its much more. <3 |
Zareph
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Viktor Speranza Mining Foreman 3? That sounds a touch low. You need Mining Director for the mining warfare gang links. So why would you not need Mining Director for the Orca?
This sounds pretty good to me as well. Director 1 would be plenty, it turns on the links. Any more is up to you.
Foreman 3 seems out of place.
* Industrial Command Ships 1 (new skill) * Spaceship Command 5 * Mining Barge 5 * Mining Foreman 3
Looking at this list, the only one that gives me a 'wtf?' is Mining Barge 5. I'm thinking 4. Seriously. 5 is the Rorqual, 4 is the Orca. Since you can't even mine with the thing (in this iteration).
Personally I like the idea of two compression lines as I've already said but I wanted to expand on the skills by saying tihs:
* Industrial Command Ships 1 (new skill) * Spaceship Command 5 * Mining Barge 4 * Mining Director 1 * Refining 5 * Mass Production 4
So now you have a different type of 'industrial core' that works on this guy that only works with the Refinery 5 minerals. Veld/Scord/Plagio/Omber minerals that you can specialize in without the need for Refinery Efficiency. The compression works the same way, BPO reqs don't need to be adjusted because they need rock processing 4. This core just only works with the 'low ends'
I really think four highs is needed, not being able to fit 3 links + a tractor for mining op support. you can shuffle the rest for compression later but four highs is a big one I think we're missing.
I don't think this should be able to mine be design, maybe you can crazy bolt it but I think this is a true support ship / hauler / bonuser /compression platform for empire.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:04:00 -
[37]
Wow, I'm actually surprised at the low cost and skill reqs, was expecting much worse.
Definately going to get one... |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:07:00 -
[38]
Cargo Capacity:
For 400mil, I expect more, really.
Ore Compression:
Can it, or can't it?
Tank:
If it can't tank belt rats, your Mining Foreman would be better off in a BC/CS, unless you like having two people doing the job of one.
Ore Compression:
Can it, or can't it?
Tractor Beams:
70km is pretty small, and 1km/s is pretty slow. It would be quicker to warp to a bookmark/can 200km above the belt and then warp to the jetcan as opposed to tractoring the same can for over a minute. Unless this thing is meant to tank belt rats (doesn't look like it), in which case it's even worse off, as it can't warp about to grab the cans more than 70km off.
Ore Compression:
Can it, or can't it?
Gang Bonuses:
3 High slots for tractor(s) and command link(s). Looking good...
Ore Compression:
Can it, or can't it? |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Viktor Speranza Mining Foreman 3? That sounds a touch low. You need Mining Director for the mining warfare gang links. So why would you not need Mining Director for the Orca?
Also 3 high slots, good idea. Anymore and you will see mission runners using these to just salvage and not for their purpose. Anyhow only "Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization" is really of any use since its the only one that helps Ice Mining. The "Harvester Capacitor Efficiency" is really only needed in conjunction with the Laser Optimization because of the long cycle time on strip miners. So those 2 plus a tractor beam is the way to go.
There is nothing on this side or the other side of the EVE Gate to convince me that Mining Laser Field Enhancement is worth spitting on. IE: fix it.
While I agree Mining Foreman 3 might seem a bit low, also realize that this ship is also designed as a big hauler, and many will use it for just that purpose, not touching the mining links. I'm more concerned with Mining Barge V, though I honestly don't like the idea of Transports V either. Transports is a tech II skill, and as such, shouldn't be used for any non-tech II ship pre-reqs. Also, isn't Transport Ships a Rank 6 skill vs. Mining Barge as a Rank 4? This would mean Transport Ships would take considerable longer to train to V.
And I do find the Mining Range link useful, but mostly as it makes the haulers jobs easier, as the barges can sit a bit more out of the belt, so less barge billiards when the haulers warp in and out. Though with an Orca there, with the 70km tractor range, this isn't much of an issue, as the haulers could just warp to the orca. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:32:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 23/10/2008 16:33:00
The ship look and sound nice, but I have a couple of questions.
- Will it be able to tank 0.0 spawns? What does it's peak cap recharge looks like? If it's not possible, it's utility in a belt will be limited to big mining ops, or you might as well use a fleet command ship for both command links and spawn tanking and that will free a slot for another hulk.
- 30k base cargo seem a bit small. I think 50k would be much nicer.
- What is it's volume once assembled? Can a carrier carry one Orca?
- What about giving it a 600k ship maintenance bay so it can carry a single rigged battleship?
- How about 4 or even 5 highs so it can use both the 3 command links and one or two tractors? |
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:32:00 -
[41]
Impressive, one of the best looking ships in game will be an industrial. |
Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:33:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zareph
Originally by: Viktor Speranza Mining Foreman 3? That sounds a touch low. You need Mining Director for the mining warfare gang links. So why would you not need Mining Director for the Orca?
This sounds pretty good to me as well. Director 1 would be plenty, it turns on the links. Any more is up to you.
Foreman 3 seems out of place.
This. Mining Director 1 instead of Foreman 3.
Originally by: jughernot I think that the Orca should have at least a mediocre level of defense, say something about as tough as your average BC (Able to tank 0.0 BS spawns). 50mbps drone bandwidth should be a minimum imo, since 1) that's what the hulk has and 2) 5 mediums can kill at least the tackling rats in an NPC spawn, if not slowly kill the BSes. I would suggest 5-6 total mid slots, but nothing more than that seems to be needed.
It would be nice if it could use more than 1 gang link by default, especially since it is a command ship. An extra high slot would really help facilitate the use of gang links.
I would like to see the tractor range improved a bit, as I'm used to pulling in cans from 150km+ with the Rorqual. 70km is great, but I think 100km would be just perfect for the Orca.
All of this.
Great ship. Looking forward to it. |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:38:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hertford Cargo Capacity: For 400mil, I expect more, really.
Well, compared to Freighter cost, and the added agility/speed this has over the freighter, this seems reasonable Originally by: Hertford Ore Compression: Can it, or can't it?
It appears no.
Originally by: Hertford Tank: If it can't tank belt rats, your Mining Foreman would be better off in a BC/CS, unless you like having two people doing the job of one.
I believe your hulks would be able to tank most belt rats, if not, a Hulk with some shield Maintenance bots has little to no trouble.
Originally by: Hertford Tractor Beams: 70km is pretty small, and 1km/s is pretty slow. It would be quicker to warp to a bookmark/can 200km above the belt and then warp to the jetcan as opposed to tractoring the same can for over a minute. Unless this thing is meant to tank belt rats (doesn't look like it), in which case it's even worse off, as it can't warp about to grab the cans more than 70km off.
70km is plenty for most mining operations. The Orca, in the middle of the belt, has itself a spread of 140km. Hulks sitting 70km from the orca then can mine up to 22km from there, so an overall operational span of (70km+70km+22km+22km=)184km without any ships moving. That would encompass any high-sec belt, and provide quite some time before a shift is needed in null-sec.
Originally by: Hertford Gang Bonuses: 3 High slots for tractor(s) and command link(s). Looking good...
It does seem a bit cramped, Though as mentioned previously, only 2 links would be used, and the third slot would work for a single tractor. Tractoring a single can in from 70km would take 70 seconds, so it's not like you'll get behind with just a single tractor working. (That'd take a LOT of hulks filling cans) |
Saulvo Vernilis
3M Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:39:00 -
[44]
Saints be praised!
Great job CCP. This turned out really well. |
Pater Deus
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:45:00 -
[45]
It sure is good to have a new ship like Orca.
Thanks CCP! Can`t wait to get an Industrial Command Ship book in my hands and read it from beginning to end.
Among other roles Orca is supposed to fill the gap between Industrial and the Freighters but it`s my impression that we will use it as a Mining Command Ship.
Want your 90,000M3 of cargohold to take around?
1 Orca = 400,000,000.- 3 Optimization Cargohold II rigs = about 250,000,000 each ?
A lot of money to fill a gap in the transportation business, uh? I`ll stick to my Obelisk to transport mining goodies, but will get an Orca to use as a Mining Command Ship.
Why only 10 scout sized drones, five miners and five defenders/attackers or at best medium sized drones stucked in a ship of this class and proportions?
Wouldn`t it be great to have a 125M3 dedicated mining drone bay? Heavy mining drones would be superb to have. I pray to the Gods of CCP to eventually redeem themselves and surprise us EVE mortals with real T2 mining drones in a near future, not the whimpy T2 ones we now have to use.
A Mining Command Ship (Orca) pilot will still lack this skills:
- Drone Foreman - Drone Director - Advanced Mining Drone Interfacing - Heavy Mining Drones
and a ship with a Dedicated Heavy Mining Drone bay
and only then Drone Mining Augmentor Rigs will give real benefit$ and payback for our inve$tment.
Last but not least, 70kms range of tractor beams and 125kms survey scanner range? Am I missing something or are we to see double sized belts in high sec?
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:46:00 -
[46]
Have to LOL a bit... It's a "high security" ship, why does it need "OMG UBER" tank?
The only thing screwy with is the skill set. Mining barge is still wierd to me.
More slots are always nice, but CCP is not looking to fill every "niche" job with ship, and that is what I keep seeing people trying to do by tweaking the Orca to suit their "niche".
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:47:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Clansworth
Originally by: Hertford Cargo Capacity: For 400mil, I expect more, really.
Well, compared to Freighter cost, and the added agility/speed this has over the freighter, this seems reasonable
Half the price of a freighter for... not even close to a quarter of the cargo capacity of a freighter. You're right about the agility and speed though. |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:48:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Vigilant Have to LOL a bit... It's a "high security" ship, why does it need "OMG UBER" tank?
The only thing screwy with is the skill set. Mining barge is still wierd to me.
More slots are always nice, but CCP is not looking to fill every "niche" job with ship, and that is what I keep seeing people trying to do by tweaking the Orca to suit their "niche".
I was expecting CCP to create a mini-rorqual. Silly me! |
Arcanne
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:51:00 -
[49]
oooh god !
I need one with the Christmas tree
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Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Vigilant Have to LOL a bit... It's a "high security" ship, why does it need "OMG UBER" tank?
The only thing screwy with is the skill set. Mining barge is still wierd to me.
More slots are always nice, but CCP is not looking to fill every "niche" job with ship, and that is what I keep seeing people trying to do by tweaking the Orca to suit their "niche".
I was expecting CCP to create a mini-rorqual. Silly me!
Yea, having a useful ship seems to be against CCPs principles. This reminds me of black ops ships. Utterly useless and far from worth the money.
Time to make a petition for a mini rorqual, freighters work well enough. High sec carrier for rigged ships would be nice but not at 400k m3.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:53:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 23/10/2008 16:53:26
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
-A mini-freighter should be able to hold a giant freight container/max courier contract without much fiddling ... A 120k m3 minifreighter with a strong tank that can move all my stuff? Who'd say no?
This. This is what I wanted. I'm definately more interested in a minifreighter then I ever was a Rorqual 1.5
//// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:56:00 -
[52]
Anyone found out what prereqs are for Industrial Command Ship are?
And I think Mining Barge V is fair, as this should be a miner's ship, and miner's do need something post hulk to keep them occupied. |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:58:00 -
[53]
Any idea which capital components will be needed to build this? |
Seragon
Caldari VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:59:00 -
[54]
Seriously, I love it. I think people are wanting too much out of the ship. I like that it forces you to make choices about how to fit it. I like that it is flexible enough to fill several roles. I like the amount of space it gives. It feels balanced and flexible. It can't tank, so won't replace belt tanks, it can't haul a tonne so won't replace freighters, it costs a tonne so won't completely replace industrials, it doesn't compress or jump so it won't replace the rorqual. It fills a nice niche between all of these. I just like it overall and will be getting one as soon as I can.
I stick to 0.0 for the most part, but I can see a lot of can flipper tears in the future as soon as people figure out they can mine directly into the corp hanger instead of a jet can. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:59:00 -
[55]
Awesome. We're already redesigning our mining op setups. :-)
For our combat logistics on the other hand, the ship maintenance bay is a bit lacking. 400km3 means you can't fit a single BS into that ship, which is a bit annoying. Rigged ships are either T2 cruisers or battleships, and T2 cruisers aren't such a problem to transport yourself - battleships take time. To make it worthwhile, it should be able to fit two battleships, which would mean it should have 900km3 - 990km3 SMB.
Any chance on this? :-] |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:00:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 23/10/2008 17:01:07 First off, yay! It looks nothing like a whale though (I actually really love the look, nice job)
I think my gut reaction is that it's a tad over-complicated, whilst being given relatively few slots to allow that complexity to be exploited. For example, as has been said already 3 highs means either mining links or sacrificing one for a tractor. I'd opt either for 2 highs and make it quite clear that for full benefits you'll need two of these things, or 4 and let it do the role fully.
Lows seem ok, though the total max cargo of 90k or more is slightly disappointing for the cost and when compared to what a freighter can give you.
Mediums I think are a bit unfortunate. I'd have preferred 4 to enable better use outside of high-sec. Given the bonuses, one at least will be a survey scanner, so that leaves just two for any sort of shield tank.
I suppose the big question I have is whether CCP intend it as a compliment to or a smaller less capable version of the Rorqual. If the latter, then fair enough. If the former, it really needs to shine in one area and let the Rorqual shine in another.
All that said, YAY YAY YAY!
Originally by: Vigilant Have to LOL a bit... It's a "high security" ship, why does it need "OMG UBER" tank?
Is it? It can be used anywhere; it seems foolish to deliberately limit it to high-sec applications only simply due to lack of slots. Why not let player ingenuity find the uses for it instead of assuming it will only be used in high-sec? |
FFH Marketscan
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 23/10/2008 16:33:00
- How about 4 or even 5 highs so it can use both the 3 command links and one or two tractors?
This is my question, are you going to be able to run 2 or 3 command links like the roqual? if so, why only 3 high slots?
The one thing that CCP seems to forget is that Null sec and Hi-sec are essentially dependent on each other, as is stated elsewhere, trit needs to be moved out there, just as the lo-sec mins are needed in hi-sec. One fails with out the other. While I realize that Null sec is supposed to be "End Game Content" it is not something all of us aspire to...
To be totally honest with you, I am a bit disappointed in this ship, I was hoping for a bit more cargo cap, and 1 or 2 more high slots, and the ability to run 2 or 3 command links at the same time. |
Moon Dogg
Gallente The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:15:00 -
[58]
Perhaps the Industrial Command Ship skill could boost drone bay size by 5m3 per skill level? Regardless, I think I will want one of these to play around in.
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:22:00 -
[59]
I'm liking most of what I'm seeing and I do plan to get one.. But I do see a couple of downers.
I'd have to say add 1 more slot for hi/mid/lo. Like others have stated, 3 hi slots just don't cut it. A 4th would be just enough. Same for the mid slots to help provide some better protection.
That "base" cargo amount of 30k, that's not even a well fitted Iteron V (38km3). Expandable to 90km3? Is that including or excluding the Corp bay of another 30k, so you're looking at about 120km3? Is that with T2 rigs? You are still going to need haulers with this. 120km3 is just a little more than 3 Itty 5 runs. That's nothing. This doesn't say "Mini-Freighter" to me.
But I'm liking it other than these limitations. |
Inanna Zuni
Minmatar The Causality Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:24:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Bado Sten but why does it need Mining Barge 5? It is not a mining ship, but has great hauling capabilities. Why not make it Transport ships 4 or 5 instead? Anyone with Barge 5 should be out mining, not in a support ship
This.
My carting-stuff-around alt wanted something between a maxed-out indy and a too-big freighter. This could have been it but the mining requirements are out of place for what is more of a courier than a mining tool.
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:24:00 -
[61]
This ship is obviously going to be used, even if it is released to TQ with the current stats. I'm sure there may be some tweaks in the next month or so before the expansion (I'd like to see barge 5 notched down a little, like others I am not an industrialist or a miner but I often help with logistics and hauling and would be happy sitting in this ship, transport 5 sounds like a good one to swap out barge 5 for)
Yeah, I can see people are complaining already because it isn't an uber boat that does every little thing they were expecting but that doesn't mean this isn't a decent ship- 140km bubble of tractor range, 90k+ cargohold and corp hanger/ship maintainence bay already make it a superbly attractive option for mining operations. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:26:00 -
[62]
Needs a large enough ship bay to carry a single rigged BS.
Needs more highs- just go for it and give it eight highs. It won't hurt anything. Three highs is just horrible. |
Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:27:00 -
[63]
If you want a mini freighter, buy a jump freighter. This is more versatile. |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:28:00 -
[64]
Thumbs Up:
- New mining ship!
- Introduces effectively a sub-capital class; those ships which require some capital components, but can fly in hihg-sec and do other things, etc. I secretly hope CCP opens this up to other sub-capital ship roles
- Bonuses a go go
- Good cargo capacity
Thumbs Down:
- This has a worrying amount of bonuses that it doesn't need.
Huge cargo makes it a replacement to freighters; people have been using industrials on mining ops for aeons, this doesn't need fixing this much. Ship carrying capacity makes it a replacement for empire carriers; ok, so carriers cant fly in high-sec anyway - but perhaps we need a dedicated ship transport.
- I don't see why this is a sub-capital, and not in the same 'tier' as other command ships. Something the size of a battlecruiser, without the cargo 'gimmicks' would have been fine for empire use.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
loki gallach
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:29:00 -
[65]
Edited by: loki gallach on 23/10/2008 17:31:00 Be nice to have bonus for astrometrics I.E. scan probe launchers. and slightly larger ship maintenance bay.
But all in all
Now just need to find NICE BIG grav site
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:31:00 -
[66]
Originally by: loki gallach Be nice to have bonus for astrometrics I.E. scan probe launchers. and slightly larger ship maintenance bay.
But all in all
What you say kinda reminds me....
Having single race-generic, specialised, ships are fine. Just look at what we've achieved with minind barges.
The same needs to be applied accross the board. What about a dedicated survey/salvage ship from SOE?
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:34:00 -
[67]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 23/10/2008 17:31:31
Originally by: loki gallach Be nice to have bonus for astrometrics I.E. scan probe launchers. and slightly larger ship maintenance bay.
But all in all
What you say kinda reminds me....
Having single race-generic, specialised, ships are fine. Just look at what we've achieved with mining barges.
The same needs to be applied accross the board. What about a dedicated survey/salvage ship from SOE?
That is the problem with orca. It is not specilaised enough. Make 2 ships. 1 mining support command ship (mineral compression is a must. No go without that) and one high sec carrier. That way they can actually do well in their intended roles instead of being sucky at both. |
Karina Bellac
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Caiman Graystock If you want a mini freighter, buy a jump freighter. This is more versatile.
And there's me thinking CCP stated the Orca was meant to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. Some sort of "mini freighter". |
Sean Mcarthur
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:36:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Sean Mcarthur on 23/10/2008 17:48:38 Seems cool enough. I have never had any problem with running out of cap in mining sesions, and as one of the mining link gives lower cap use on mining lasers, that is the one link to go so it can have a tractor. I think this is the setup you will se in high sek: An orca lands in the middle of the belt, has 2 links to boost it's mining friends, and then they can mine and jetison cans. The Orca will tractor cans to it and take the ore, which it will then transfer to its corp hangar. Dedicated haulers only need to jump to orca, take from corp hangar and leave again. NOT using gang links on this one seem wasted, as it (afaik) is the only (high sec)ship to give bonus to mining links so will give the highest bonus allround. And you won't haul with it as that will turn of booster modules and thereby reduce efficiency for the whole operation. Seems perfekt to medium scale mining ops (1 booster, 2-6 miners, 1 or 2 haulers) Just my 2 isk.
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:41:00 -
[70]
Quote: And there's me thinking CCP stated the Orca was meant to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. Some sort of "mini freighter".
It still fulfils that role with upwards of 100km3 of space. |
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:43:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Karina Bellac
Originally by: Caiman Graystock If you want a mini freighter, buy a jump freighter. This is more versatile.
And there's me thinking CCP stated the Orca was meant to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. Some sort of "mini freighter".
Yeah, but a mini freighter (~100km3) should be dedicated. Not part of another role. CCP have opened up an interesting avenue with this sub-capital concept. They just need to make better use of it. At the moment the Orca is a jack of all trades.
*By sub-capital I mean something that's constructed using capital components, is allowed in high-sec, jump incapable**, but doesn't require Advanced Spaceship Command to fly.
**Having a dedicated jump portal ship - NOT CACK OPS - is still on my wishlist.
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:48:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 23/10/2008 17:54:08 hey hey
initially looks nice and well thought out. I have doubts that the corp hanger will suffice for mining ops as typically 1 barge can fill a single can in about 12 minutes.
with such a small corp bay there is still a need for a gang of haullers to drop ore to the station. ore compression or the ability for a freighter to access the corp bay would be helpfull.
just like the rorqual i would much prefer a non mining ship to NOT have barge skill requirements. if you got barge V then i would prefer you in the belt in a hulk Id much prefer more focus towards industrial/command skills than barge/command skillset. I just dont understand the logic of mining skills for an essentially non mining industrial logistics ship.
if it had a salvaging bonus it would make an awesome salvaging ship :) (BTW want theese too )
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Ricky1989
Caldari Insurrection Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:53:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Mikal Drey Edited by: Mikal Drey on 23/10/2008 17:49:38 initially looks nice and well thought out. I have doubts that the corp hanger will suffice for mining ops as typically 1 barge can fill a single can in about 12 minutes.
Yes but you can get the cargohold maxxed upto 90,000m3 so thats alittle more I guess! |
Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:57:00 -
[74]
90km3 is nothing. You'll still need haulers. The Orca would just eliminate jetcans.
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:00:00 -
[75]
unless they envision the barges dropping ore directly into its corp bay then the orca pilot moving the ore into its 90km cargo bay then warping to the station to unload. avoiding jet can mining (unintended game mechanic)
this would loose the gang bonus and negate the tractor bonus.
as i mentioned in my previous post it should be more of a logistics hauller by the looks of the ships setup and layout. its got almost no tanking capability either.
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Caldreis
Caldari White Star Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:01:00 -
[76]
I agree with most of the critics so far but will look forward to testing on sisi.
*critic about high/med and lower m3 per ISK than 1 itty V maxed out among few other
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:06:00 -
[77]
One thing that looks missing from the stated bonuses is the "can use 3 gang link modules simultaneously" line that is found on the Rorqual. If the Orca doesn't have this, it will limit it's usefulness in the command role, requiring it's already limited mid-slots to be used up in command processors.
Originally by: Great Smirnov Squad of light drones are definitely nor enough to get rid of belt spawns. Big minus. Hulk can launch a squad of medium drones and is smaller ship.
I you would not expect this ship to be in a belt on it's own anyway, so it should be being supported by the drones of the barges present with it, or the operation's combat escort.
Giving the Orca a significant military support element as well would make it far too powerful.
Originally by: Great Smirnov C'mon, there are even battleship size respawns and this is a support ship for defenseless miners.
It's to support the mining side of the operation. If you want to support defenceless miners in the combat department, use a combat ship.
Originally by: Great Smirnov Tree med slots are not really enough to maintain a shield tank. Also a minus. Booster and 2 invuls? Barely a tank.
This is one area I am concerned about. While I don't think it should be able to fight back effectively (hence the small drone bay), I do think it should be able to mount a very robust tank. As it is, it doesn't look to have enough slots to mount an effective tank of any variety, and also does not have the significant HP buffer that freighters use as an alternative.
But then I'm of the opinion that all the industrial ships need to be able to survive a bit longer in a fight than they currently do, to encourage proper escorting.
Originally by: Great Smirnov If it is supposed due to tractor bonuses to salvage stuff then this is a laughter. 2 tractors and 1 salvager? Or 1 tractor and 2 salvagers? How long it will take to salvage a mission, 3-4 hours, one wreck by one?
The simple answer to this is that it is not intended to be a ship for salvaging missions. The tractor bonuses are so that it can sit in a central position in a belt and tractor in cans from barges spread throughout that belt.
Though if we assume it's supposed to be able to fit all three mining links, 4 or possibly 5 highs would seem more logical to allow the three links and some tractoring capacity.
Originally by: OMG ATITAN1 Im gonna hold in the rage about the silly comments being made here and just ask one question...Do you guys really need the capacitor mining link? Cuz if you do, well you have issues, if you dont, then put the bloody tractor beam there.
That should really be more of a debate of whether that link needs a different bonus. This ship is clearly intended to run the mining links, and there are three of them, so it is a pertinent point even of some of those links have separate balancing issues.
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau What's the reasoning for no compression lines? Currently high-sec ores, veldspar specifically, are not worth compressing due to the logistics hassle of first having to move them to low-sec for the rorqual to compress. Null-sec regions rely heavily on imported trit from empire, and the orca could have been an ideal platform for compressing empire mined veldspar for resale in null-sec. With even half the compression slots of a rorqual it still wouldn't taken away from the rorqual's role.
Here's hoping that it's an indication that Midas will also fix the need for all that imported trit, along with a whole host of other problems, by decoupling mineral quality from ore quality. Or that proper mineral compression (not just ore compression) is coming. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:06:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Clansworth on 23/10/2008 18:12:20 Just checked stats on SiSi, and the Industrial Command Ships skill pre-req's are:
- Spaceship Command 5 - Mining Barge 5 - Mining Foreman 3
Just as listed in the Blog.
As for any other updated, the skillbook is not currently seeded on the market, and the Orca and Orca Blueprint show info's are not working.. so not other info yet..
POS Personal Storage |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:12:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Vigilant Have to LOL a bit... It's a "high security" ship, why does it need "OMG UBER" tank?
1) It's not just a "high security" ship. It should still be viable as a low-sec choice for operations not yet ready to field and maintain a rorqual.
2) PvP combat does happen in high-sec too. If you make it too weak to be defendable, it'll just encourage the station-sitting zero-combat wardecs. If you give this (and other) industrial ships sufficient tank to survive a reasonable time on the battlefield, you are more likely to get them being guarded properly, and get actual fights occurring because of/around them. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ewa White
White Omega
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:17:00 -
[80]
what are the actual requirement to fly the ship , not to train the skill ?
that list of require skill is really short ... but possible
can we have bonus to mining laser instead ... tractor beam cmon .... if I want an overprice looting ship I use a marauder already(j/k) ... was expecting somethign a little more mining oriented not a pseudo freighter with tractor beams ...
not sure why this remind me of a Doctor Evil design ... quasi-freighter...
Ewa |
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:20:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Clansworth Edited by: Clansworth on 23/10/2008 18:12:20 Just checked stats on SiSi, and the Industrial Command Ships skill pre-req's are:
- Spaceship Command 5 - Mining Barge 5 - Mining Foreman 3
Just as listed in the Blog.
As for any other updated, the skillbook is not currently seeded on the market, and the Orca and Orca Blueprint show info's are not working.. so not other info yet..
Thanks. |
Sexiest Beast
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:22:00 -
[82]
It definitely needs Ore Compression to make it a real viable option for mining operations. It would then almost 100% get used for its purpose. The Rorqual pretty much turned into a jump capable and cheaper than Freighter/JF hauler.
It would be a shame for the Orca to become an efficient transport ship and at a reasonable 400mil price tag its certainly looking to be one.
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Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:22:00 -
[83]
What about losing the command bonuses, and increasing the cargo bay? Use a BC or command ship if you want bonuses. Then this indeed becomes a mini freighter. Its role would be to collect jet cans or ore directly into hold, and haul back to station. It would also hold mining ships for deployment, and offer token defense via drones. |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:26:00 -
[84]
Nice stealth-announcement of the xl ship assembly array.
I woud guess, the LSAA will be highsec re-enabled and can build battleships and freighters, the XLSAA will be lowsec-only and can build carriers, dreadnoughts, rorquals?
Making the Orca the first item ingame that can be built in two different POS assembly arrays? |
Aarin Wrath
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:27:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Great Smirnov I can only agree, what the point of learning mining barge lvl 5 for a multi-purpose hauler?
It's focus is that of a mining director platform. Its focus is not that of a hauler. That is why it need Barge V. Not to mention the fact that it is a ORE ship
Originally by: Great Smirnov
Squad of light drones are definitely nor enough to get rid of belt spawns. Big minus.
It's intended for high sec. All you need is a wing of light drones for high sec rats.
Originally by: Great Smirnov
Hulk can launch a squad of medium drones and is smaller ship. C'mon, there are even battleship size respawns and this is a support ship for defenseless miners. Tree med slots are not really enough to maintain a shield tank. Also a minus. Booster and 2 invuls? Barely a tank.
Hulk is for deep space mining. I.e. 0.0. It needs good denfences and a decent tank. The Orca is for high sec, it needs to fend off against pidly 0.5 frigate rats at the very worst. It does not need a uber tank.
Originally by: Great Smirnov If it is supposed due to tractor bonuses to salvage stuff then this is a laughter. 2 tractors and 1 salvager? Or 1 tractor and 2 salvagers? How long it will take to salvage a mission, 3-4 hours, one wreck by one? Completely inefficient. People using hurricane for salvage just because you can fit 4 tractors and 4 salvagers at the same time.
It's focus is that of a mining director platform. Its focus is not that of a salvager. Why the heck would you need 90k of space for salvaging?
You seem to have completely missed the point of this ship.
Primary role: High Sec Mining Director Platform Secondary role: Hauler in between that of a Transport Ship and a Freighter. |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:28:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert What about losing the command bonuses, and increasing the cargo bay? Use a BC or command ship if you want bonuses. Then this indeed becomes a mini freighter. Its role would be to collect jet cans or ore directly into hold, and haul back to station. It would also hold mining ships for deployment, and offer token defense via drones.
No offence but that's a useless idea. Nobody really wants/needs a mini-freighter a la above, but plenty of people will find the mix of command bonuses, cargo space etc. very useful. |
Vim
Spook Division
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:33:00 -
[87]
I'am getting one just for the sake of having a mini freighter!
...wait... why dont I just go get a real freighter, I'll never mine in highsec o_O
Anyhow, looks like a nice gadget :) |
Mikal Drey
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:42:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Aarin Wrath It's focus is that of a mining director platform. Its focus is not that of a hauler. That is why it need Barge V. Not to mention the fact that it is a ORE ship
then why not give it leadership skills as its reqs ? mining director and mining foreman for its primary role and then industrial skills as its ship requirement and secondary role.
if indeed as you say its secondary role it to provide a step between transport and freighter then it shoul drequire industrial ship skills otherwise you could bypass the industrial skill altogether and you have yourself a hauller that completly outclasses everything below a Jump Freighter yet is actually a mining platform :/ kinda ****ed tbh
this new ORCA is a better hauler than my mastodon but i need to be a miner to fly it. thats logic for you
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:42:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 23/10/2008 18:42:34 done a double
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:45:00 -
[90]
The ship cannot mount mining lasers. Why on earth does it require mining barge 5? It would make infinitely more sense to make it require transport ships 5 if it must include a lvl 5 skill, and would give people a reason to train that skill past level 1, while not granting instant access to the best hauler in the game to dedicated miners who havent trained industrial ship skills
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Layla
Twisted Creations
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:47:00 -
[91]
I think it looks great.
I like that it has a multiplicity ofpotential roles, rather than being master of one. Survival in Eve is all about adapting.
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.23 18:58:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Shintai on 23/10/2008 18:58:37 Really really like it. Gorgerous design.
I had hoped on compression and such. But im happy with this new approach.
However...few bad things.
1: Ship bay..400K is 2 hulks. How about say 410-450K so you could store frigs/shuttle that the hulk pilots might have used to get there.
2. More cargo. I know with 2 T2 rigs and 1 T1 rig and 2 expanders its 100K+30K corp bay. But then its a 1B+ if not close to 2B. And still not really...hauler. I would like to see atleast 50K base. Maybe a 3rd low.
3. Tank. This depends on recharge rate of the shield and cap. lets be honest. Its not an armour tanker I would like to see 1 more mid atleast. 2 resists+booster+scanner.
4. Drones. I would like 75m3 bay and 50Mbit to field 5 mediums and still have mining drones in bay.
Else overall happy. I assume the 3 high slots is for 2 tractors and 1 link.
EDIT: Oh, and do make it Mining Director 1. |
ian666
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:05:00 -
[93]
insted of fightning with macrominers, ccp want to give them a new ship [*][*][*] |
Seragon
Caldari VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:07:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Caiman Graystock The ship cannot mount mining lasers. Why on earth does it require mining barge 5? It would make infinitely more sense to make it require transport ships 5 if it must include a lvl 5 skill, and would give people a reason to train that skill past level 1, while not granting instant access to the best hauler in the game to dedicated miners who havent trained industrial ship skills
The Rorqual can't fit mining lasers / strips either and has the same requirement. |
Jamaican Herbsman
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:12:00 -
[95]
Seems quite cool! deffy gonna get one for empire mining ops. I would like to hear feedback on why there's no compression though. Ty CCP |
Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:20:00 -
[96]
Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 23/10/2008 19:10:59 insted of fightning with macrominers, ccp want to give them a new ship [*][*][*]
most stupid idea ever
I cant see this helping macrominers in any way.
--------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:24:00 -
[97]
QUESTION TO DEV-BLOG:
I really like the look of this coming ship the Orca, the tractorbeam bonus and the passive gang-bonus. What I lack is a real cargo for it to be a "mini-freighter", as I understood U want it to be. But I guess you don't want it to compete with regular freighters, so here comes a suggestion/question:
Could the Orca not be given a ROLE-bonus that ore takes 50% to 75% less space in it's cargo. Then a piece of Arkonor would fill 4-8 m3 instead of 16 m3 when placed in Orca, and this ship would fill it's role as it should and where it should.
*It would be a temporary/passive compress bonus, similar to the Rorqual, only that it's only as long as the ore is placed in the cargo of the Orca. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
Caldreis
Caldari White Star Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:24:00 -
[98]
For those who are curious about building orca. *subject to changes*
http://eve-files.com/dl/176352
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Ultan Devastator
Pegasus Mining and Securities Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:28:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Ultan Devastator on 23/10/2008 19:28:44 Skills dictate a mining ship.
what we truely need is a 0.0 mining ship that can be limited to mining say kernite to veld only. 3 times bigger than a hulk. has a "mining Siege" module. makes you stuck for say 6 minutes. but your 3 miners work really fast ( 1 minute a cycle per beam in siege) to chew up the low end ores.
you will still need haulers to offload these BELT ENDERS. but i firmly believe, in zero zero, we need a ship that will help us get the low ends mined
4 high (3 turret) 4 mid 2 low 2 rigs cargo size max size with t1 rigs and t2 expanders would need to be 75 k
drone bay 145 m3 ( 5 mining drones. 3 heavy 2 medium combat)
10 % all resist shields per level (skill is rank 8 )
This is what orca would be in my mind.
Ultan |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:31:00 -
[100]
Love the way it looks, and 70k tractor range.. thats cool with me too, not many belts larger than that, though in a large exploration belt it could be close to being not enough. i will agree with the One extra high slot to fit links and a tractor. capacity etc is ok with me as well... My question would be; Can a freighter access it? Without a freighter being able to access it, what have we gained as far as being able to mine systems with no stations? Currently, the command ship tractors in the cans, haulers warp to it, load the cans and warp off to jump to nearest station.. this works fairly well, with the exception of needing as many haulers as miners... The Orca, being the command ship cant be making two or three jumps. First, the bonus's are gone, second cans will be filling up with no where to put them. The Orca could gather them all in when it returns and make another trip, but again, the bonus's are gone, and your talking about a bonus giver that will be gone more than it is there.... Allowing a freighter to access it would fix that... OR... giving it compression so that less haulers are needed would also be a fix, though I would prefer the Freighter access.. Ive never tried to access the rorq with a freighter so have no idea if its possible or not.
Not sure who said it could only handle light drones, but with 50m3 it can handle 5 medium drones. With good skills you can kill a bs with them, though i doubt the tank would handle a BS, nor do I think it was meant to. even a drone capacity of 25m3 would be fine with me as light drones will kill any highsec belt rat there is efficiantly. Overall I am quite happy with it as it stands, with the obvious exception of it giving bonus's and being required to jump out of a system. If a freighter can access it, then it is imo a perfect command ship for highsec ops. |
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:38:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar
Not sure who said it could only handle light drones, but with 50m3 it can handle 5 medium drones. With good skills you can kill a bs with them, though i doubt the tank would handle a BS, nor do I think it was meant to. even a drone capacity of 25m3 would be fine with me as light drones will kill any highsec belt rat there is efficiantly.
It only has 25 bandwidth, so only 5 lights or two mediums and a light.
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:44:00 -
[102]
oh ok, my bad, i just saw the 50m3 capacity appologies!
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Scrapple
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:51:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Scrapple on 23/10/2008 19:54:47 My only issue with the current design is that its way too big. 500Km3 packaged may be a good compromise for allowing a freighter to move this semi-capital ship, but at 500Km3, it will not fit in a jump freighter which in my opinion makes the ship significantly less useful.
The choice to make the Orca 500Km3 seems to be against the whole original design of the Rorq. It makes sense that the Rorq can jump in industrial/barges, hell it can even run a clone vat. All seems to make us think that CCP wanted us to use the Rorq for deploying mining fleets in remote locations. Why then should there be no way to actually get an Orca to a remote mining op without using gates?
300km3 would be much more appropriate IMO. It would still take an entire JF to move one, but at least you could move it. Additionally, making an assembled one fit in a Rorq would also make alot of sense. Perhaps make the Orca 1Mm3 assembled.
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Ottman
Amarr LoneWolf Mining Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:51:00 -
[104]
i need barge level 5 but cant fit strip miners on it ? hello ? no strip miners, no barge skill, but if you keep orca like that ccp, shove that ship somewhere where sun never shines... that ship is pretty useless, most miners are pretty much alone, and that means the orca is pretty useless, the only thing you can hope that those who do industrial work and have an army of alts they can run one or those few real industrial corp who are based in empire, what means orca will be a niche ship at its best, and the price ? for double you get a real freighter that needs not so much skilling. and my experience with ccp is they never bring something new without nerfing something already existing.
you want to know what orca should be ? add the bonus on the cpu use for strip miners and everything is shiny...
MfG ottman |
Tolp
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:56:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ottman
that ship is pretty useless, most miners are pretty much alone,
You need to find a new corp |
Scrapple
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:57:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Ottman i need barge level 5 but cant fit strip miners on it ? hello ? no strip miners, no barge skill, but if you keep orca like that ccp, shove that ship somewhere where sun never shines... that ship is pretty useless, most miners are pretty much alone, and that means the orca is pretty useless, the only thing you can hope that those who do industrial work and have an army of alts they can run one or those few real industrial corp who are based in empire, what means orca will be a niche ship at its best, and the price ? for double you get a real freighter that needs not so much skilling. and my experience with ccp is they never bring something new without nerfing something already existing.
you want to know what orca should be ? add the bonus on the cpu use for strip miners and everything is shiny...
MfG ottman
This man has a point. Maybe think about changing the prereq to transports V or something like that.
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Cheap Dude
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Posted - 2008.10.23 19:58:00 -
[107]
Well.. as a solo miner I think the ship is good. You just mine alot of ore into cans, get the orca and haul all the cans
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:00:00 -
[108]
Love the ship right now but some things would make me love it more.
1. Change the Mining Barge prereq to something else. I am a hauler pilot, the Orca (and Rorqual) is a HAULER, thus it should require hauler skills, mining skills are for miners. (same applies to the rorqual but that one has already been done) 2. For a ship of this size medium drones would be nice to use. ORE is a Gallente company, why are they fielding a ship with a Caldary size done bay? 3. A bigger maint bay would be nice, what good is a ship that can haul rigged ships if it can't carry a battleship? (perhaps Industrial Command Ships can increase the size of the maint bay) 4. I agree that a bit more cargo space might be nice, but something that you could do is have the Industrial Command ship skill boost cargo bay capacity AND the corp hangar section
additional thoughts 1. An extra high and mid slot might be nice 2. the concept of sticking strip miners on this thing sounds intriguing and would fir with it requiring Mining Barge V, Perhaps we can have a T2 version that fits miners. -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:00:00 -
[109]
Now, i was hoping the orca would also be a nice specialized ship for salvaging and looting wrecks, but alias, 3 high slots wont do with that.
Good news is, now I can beg CCP, to also make a specialized salvaging/looting ship, that is also quite big :D
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Random Neg
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:11:00 -
[110]
At first I was very excited about the Orca, but as I look into it more and more, it turned out that it is a glorified Transport ship for a miner. All my haulers who have been training Transports to help the miners move stuff were excited about a ship that would be better suited to supporting the miners. Unfortunately non of them will be able to fly the ship and now I have to take one of my miners off of their preferred task in order to run the Orca. Guess what, we wont bother with using it for a High Sec mining op. We'll move one or two rigged ships out to a local station, the miner that flew the Orca will take one, then another miner will take the other (not enough maintenance bay space for more.) A Hauler will come in, buy a Indy ship (or fly a transport out) and move the mined ores to the local station. After we refine the ore to minerals then we will load it all back up in the Orca to ship it back to our base.
Now, if my miner could actually mine with the ship then great, I can get 3 miners into a belt and only require one of them to take the slow road.
On the other hand if I could get my hauler out there, again great, he does what he normally does and moves stuff from point A to point B, two miners come in and get on their ships and start working the field, the Hauler will pull in the ore, occasionally moving a full load to a local station, wash rinse repeat.
If it is a Mining Ship, then you might as well put the same restriction on the maintenance bay that you have on the Rorqual and say only Mining Barges, etc... can be stored in it, there is no point in saying it's a multi-function ship when you have to be a miner to use it.
So, now that we have a sub-capital Rorqual in place, when will we be getting our sub-capital carriers so that the rest of the players can move rigged ships around in high sec?
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:14:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Caldreis For those who are curious about building orca. *subject to changes*
Linky
Fixed your link
Also, for an ORE ship, the skills are right where they should be, the rorqual requires barges V as well _____________________
The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:15:00 -
[112]
Allowing strip miners on the Orca would be terrible. That would simply make another standard solo mining vessel. With the Orca as it is (with a few changes) it adds a complete new, and dare say it, exciting level to hi-sec mining.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:15:00 -
[113]
Nice to know that solo mining can increase, so that Alliances can afford cheaper Titans. Nice addition, unfortunately wrong focus.
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:16:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Also, for an ORE ship, the skills are right where they should be, the rorqual requires barges V as well
The Orca isn't a Rorqual. The Orca isn't a mini-Rorqual. The Retriever does not require Mining Barge V. Your statement is a complete non-sequitur. |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:20:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice to know that solo mining can increase, so that Alliances can afford cheaper Titans. Nice addition, unfortunately wrong focus.
Yes, I too am looking forward to solo mining in my no-strip-miner-no-turret-slots-for-Miner-IIs Orca.
Yes, I too am looking forward to solo mining three entire jetcans full of ore (instead of two) so that I can swap to this new 400mil Orca to save me about 10 minutes of hauling time. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:20:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Fulber The Orca isn't a Rorqual. The Orca isn't a mini-Rorqual. The Retriever does not require Mining Barge V. Your statement is a complete non-sequitur.
The retriever isn't a capital ship, now is it
The Orca is a capital. It was designed by ORE. Requiring their ship skill (Mining Barges) to level 5 is pretty standard for capital ship requirements _____________________
The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:22:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate The retriever isn't a capital ship, now is it
The Orca is a capital. It was designed by ORE. Requiring their ship skill (Mining Barges) to level 5 is pretty standard for capital ship requirements
Last I checked, the Orca is a subcapital. Just like the Retriever. Again, your previous statement is a non-sequitur. |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:26:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Unity Love on 23/10/2008 20:27:34
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate The retriever isn't a capital ship, now is it
The Orca is a capital. It was designed by ORE. Requiring their ship skill (Mining Barges) to level 5 is pretty standard for capital ship requirements
Last I checked, the Orca is a subcapital. Just like the Retriever. Again, your previous statement is a non-sequitur.
Requires capital components, no?
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:27:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 23/10/2008 20:27:42
Originally by: Fulber Last I checked, the Orca is a subcapital
'subcapital' in the same level as a freighter; ie, no jump drive. It still takes capital ship components, capital ship construction skills, and contains capital-ship specific features - which makes it a small capital ship, by ORE, which means it requires Barges V. _____________________
The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:27:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 23/10/2008 20:27:27
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Also, for an ORE ship, the skills are right where they should be, the rorqual requires barges V as well
The rorqual requiring Mining Barge V is also a mistake. if you have mining skills you should be mining, haulers should require a different skillset regardless of what faction they belong to. -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
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Ottman
Amarr LoneWolf Mining Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:27:00 -
[121]
well orca need 6 highslots, cpu bonus to be able to fit strips like barge, cargo space is okay at all, 50 m¦ drone hangar is also okay, but needs also 50 mbit bandwith that would be useful, mining yield bonus over barge skill, over capital industrial skill. an cargo bonus bounded per level needed to fly ship sounds good. but the complete trac beam bonus no one need, also not the survey bonus, pretty useless, no one use that, all just change overview settings and kill roid per roid. and gang modules ? if i want gang boni and have a mate with the right skills in bc thats cheaper, so who gives a **** on that ? so some of the skill requirements are also not needed. no one with a few brain cells will waste isk on that ship, only bigger industrial alliance will have use from that, and no ccp not all want to be in bigger alliance, so if you want to loose those who support you for years, pls go on with that bull****...
well ccp for me it looks that you have done only the half job, for bigger mining gangs orca will be nice ofc, but for those who are in smaller corps and alliances or in alliances where mates are in different tz and so cant really help with mining ? give orca in two variants, or give second variant another name, one as sub capital mining ship that can fit strip miners, and one like the orca you just presented, then it will be okay, but only the orca ?
MfG ottman
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Rramar Claime
Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:32:00 -
[122]
Ok great, new ship, nice bonuses, nice attributes, relatively cheap, can fly in empire, etc etc, simply cool as it sounds.
But could someone please explain me the general idea behind it other than the need for a mid-capital ship? Cause it really cant (shouldnt) be used outside empire space and i just dont get the idea how the huge and amazing veldspar mining ops would need such a ship.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes." |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:32:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 23/10/2008 20:27:27
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Also, for an ORE ship, the skills are right where they should be, the rorqual requires barges V as well
The rorqual requiring Mining Barge V is also a mistake. if you have mining skills you should be mining, haulers should require a different skillset regardless of what faction they belong to.
The only significant change I can endorse is renaming the skill to "ORE Vessels" or something similar, as ORE has expanded significantly over the years and has become somewhat more varied than just mining barges _____________________
The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:33:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Unity Love on 23/10/2008 20:35:40
Originally by: Ottman
but the complete trac beam bonus no one need, also not the survey bonus, pretty useless, no one use that, all just change overview settings and kill roid per roid. and gang modules ? if i want gang boni and have a mate with the right skills in bc thats cheaper, so who gives a **** on that ?
Please notice: ITS A RUDDY MINING COMMAND PLATFORM!!!
The tractor beam bonus is integral so you can make life easier for haulers or haul yourself on a large-scale mining operation.
And a bc doesn't give the same bonuses for mining links (therefore an orca will give higher yield), ipso facto more useful for the majority amount of miners who mine in a group.
And people, I say again, it was never meant to be a solo mining ship, so stop whining about having no mining lasers etc.
Edit for panash
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zacuis
Great Big Research
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:34:00 -
[125]
firstly this is an awsome ship i love it.
but i do have a concern with no ore compression. you will be forced to warp back to station every 4 cans of ore. gang links are disabled in warp so your loosing your gang bonues while in warp and while docked.the alternitive is to send a freighter out to empty the ore from the ship every 4 cans. that seems a little inefficent seeing as a freighter can carry 900km3 +
i`d strongly advocate trebling the cargo hold i dont see 350km3 as over powered its still much less than a freighter so doesnt effect its role. perhaps u could make the ship less agile. so it doesnt replace the freighter. as a quick mini frieghter.
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Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:42:00 -
[126]
Originally by: zacuis firstly this is an awsome ship i love it.
but i do have a concern with no ore compression. you will be forced to warp back to station every 4 cans of ore. gang links are disabled in warp so your loosing your gang bonues while in warp and while docked.the alternitive is to send a freighter out to empty the ore from the ship every 4 cans. that seems a little inefficent seeing as a freighter can carry 900km3 +
i`d strongly advocate trebling the cargo hold i dont see 350km3 as over powered its still much less than a freighter so doesnt effect its role. perhaps u could make the ship less agile. so it doesnt replace the freighter. as a quick mini frieghter.
The solution is to enable ore compression instad of making a new freighter. That would not break anything and most important will not intrude on a role of other ship already in the game.
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:42:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Also, for an ORE ship, the skills are right where they should be, the rorqual requires barges V as well
Rorqual is a capital. Not a subcapital. Not a supercapital.
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate The retriever isn't a capital ship, now is it
The Orca is a capital. It was designed by ORE. Requiring their ship skill (Mining Barges) to level 5 is pretty standard for capital ship requirements
Orca is a subcapital. Not a capital. Not a supercapital.
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate 'subcapital' in the same level as a freighter; ie, no jump drive. It still takes capital ship components, capital ship construction skills, and contains capital-ship specific features
Capital Ship components and Capital Ship construction skills are used for subcapitals, capitals, and supercapitals. You keep making non-sequiturs.
The Rorqual is a capital and requires Mining Barge V. Your argument that the Orca should also require Mining Barge V is a non-sequitor because:
- You stated the Orca is the same class as the Rorqual. - You stated all ORE ships require Mining Barge V.
Neither of which are true.
The reason why the Orca requires Barge V is probably because it follows a similar role to the Rorqual, that of being an industrial commandship. Now, the Rorqual not only requires Barge V, but also a slew of capital ship skills. It fits that the Orca still requires Barge V, as it doesn't require the capital skillset. An analogous example is that of Command Ships, with the Battlecruisers V requirement. |
Entarius Fusion
Caldari Neo Khan Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:52:00 -
[128]
just a quick question. are these allowed in high sec?
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:54:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Fulber - You stated the Orca is the same class as the Rorqual. - You stated all ORE ships require Mining Barge V.
Neither of which are true.
Well, to be fair, on Singularity currently, the Orca is in the same market group as the Rorqual (The Capital Industrial Ships group). Speaking on singulatity: Full Size
POS Personal Storage |
Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:55:00 -
[130]
Well..... the Orca has a primary required skill called "Industrial Command Ship" which in reality means "Mining Command Ship".
So, it might need Mining Barge 5 just as a regular command ship needs Cruiser 5.
Also, do not change it to Transport Ships 5, that would be just horrible. Mining Barge 5 is a useful skill, Transport Ships 2+ is not.
Apart from that, I like it. It is designed for highsec operations, so a 1-slot shieldtank should suffice in most circumstances (= large shieldbooster II), a flight of light drones is all you really need against highsec beltrats. Leaves us with 2 meds for afterburner/command processors, and highslots to toy with.
As it is a command ship, I'd like to see Warfare Link Specialist 4 added as a requirement, and second the switch from Foreman 3 to Director 1.
If it is indeed intended as a secondary-role hauling vessel to shrink the industrial->freighter gap, it should reach 120k m3 with tech 2 cargo expander and t1 cargo optimization rigs so it can transport maximum size courier contracts.
I'm undecided on the ship maintenance bay, having 550k m3 so it can transport rigged battleships sure would be nice, but might make it a wee bit too versatile.
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:57:00 -
[131]
^ I think you missed his point. He was pointing out that the Orca, as a 'subcapital' class ship it should require the similar skills to pilot as the rorqual, minus the capital skill books.
And he did not state all ORE ships require barge V, he stated that for a sub-capital ship designed by ORE, Mining Barge V seems like a likely skill needed to fly it.
And stop saying non sequitur...
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Vincent Law
Gnome Research
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:59:00 -
[132]
The main issue here is that this ship is able to do a lot of stuff, but it is not as specialized as everyone would like.
As it is now, you can move up to three cruisers or a battlecruiser and a couple frigates in the Orca's SMA. I can move 2x as many cruisers in my freighter using courier contracts. Pretty much the same can be said for frigates. Anything bigger than 120,000m3 can't be moved in a freighter.
Seems to me that the ship is geared more towards mining support, and doesn't have enough abilities to make it useful to the people that want to use it to keep their war machines moving.
Sure you could give it enough space to carry a rigged battleship, but aside from being able to take a bit of your corp hangar along with it, you're still moving them individually.
What I'd really like is a "ship ferry" that can transport about a dozen each of rigged battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, and frigates. A new class of freighter with a 10,000,000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay (1/2 of a POS SMA), no cargo or corp hangar, cannot be used in space (can offload and load at a POS SMA), cannot load industrials/barges with cargo. Bonuses would be agility/speed/hp since I don't know if a Ship Maintenance Bay capacity bonus is possible.
Ideas I Like:
- Dissallow the Orca to carry combat ships
- Create a new ship exclusively for moving ships
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Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:00:00 -
[133]
Being an ORE ship, it makes perfect sense to require Mining Barge V. The covetor requires the same thing.
It is a mining command ship, after all.
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meracuza
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:01:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Ultan Devastator Edited by: Ultan Devastator on 23/10/2008 19:28:44 Skills dictate a mining ship.
what we truely need is a 0.0 mining ship that can be limited to mining say kernite to veld only. 3 times bigger than a hulk. has a "mining Siege" module. makes you stuck for say 6 minutes. but your 3 miners work really fast ( 1 minute a cycle per beam in siege) to chew up the low end ores.
you will still need haulers to offload these BELT ENDERS. but i firmly believe, in zero zero, we need a ship that will help us get the low ends mined
4 high (3 turret) 4 mid 2 low 2 rigs cargo size max size with t1 rigs and t2 expanders would need to be 75 k
drone bay 145 m3 ( 5 mining drones. 3 heavy 2 medium combat)
10 % all resist shields per level (skill is rank 8 )
This is what orca would be in my mind.
Ultan
This is a fantastic idea, though I would suggest that the "mining seige module" be specific to only one type of ore. This would make it work more like mining crystals in a t2 strip miner.
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Rramar Claime
Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:07:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Rramar Claime Ok great, new ship, nice bonuses, nice attributes, relatively cheap, can fly in empire, etc etc, simply cool as it sounds.
But could someone please explain me the general idea behind it other than the need for a mid-capital ship? Cause it really cant (shouldnt) be used outside empire space and i just dont get the idea how the huge and amazing veldspar mining ops would need such a ship.
Ok im reading what you guys write, its a hisec hauler with cool bonuses, then why do i need barges 5 for it? Again i dont see a real use for this ship other then the next marketing move of ccp. Make a nice 3d model give it some attributes and make a crazy marketing ( Orca Orca Orca AAAArrrrgh the dev blog youve been waiting for aaaaaaggghhhhh everyone go crazy NOW ). The only guy in Eve who can fully use this ship and have a reason for it is probably chribba and his veldnaught...
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes." |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:08:00 -
[136]
Why turrets? use mining drones if you want to exploit the cargo hold. You won't get anything effective out of it anyways. Turrets are totally unnecessary.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:11:00 -
[137]
Edited by: I SoStoned on 23/10/2008 21:15:08 Are you going to seed the BPO's where people can actually find them, not some ass-end-of-nowhere 0.0 system that gives the holding alliance 100% of the income since they keep those systems (only 2) locked down?
There are some faults with it:
No ore compression capability (1 or 2 would be nice, but make them 1/2 as fast as a Rorq).
Not enough PG/CPU to fit a single gang module, much less 2 (notice: no bonuses for fitting gang modules!!! Base gang module CPU is 5000!)
Not enough highslots for a big, slow, poorly armed (50m/3 dronebay? Come on!) ship. Without tractors it has to get up the ass of its mining fleet, or it has to fit multiple tractor beams, rendering it unable to use the gang modules (that it can't fit anyway).
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ArymAramanska
Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:11:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Xessej I'm pretty sure I can use two low slots and 3 upgrade hardpoints to take 30k m3 well past 45km3 cargo capacity especially with +5% cargo cap per level of skill.
it does say expandable out past 90k in the blog.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:12:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Rramar Claime Ok im reading what you guys write, its a hisec hauler with cool bonuses
No, its a command ship barge with a cool cargo bay.
The primary reason for its inception was (to the best of my knowledge) the absense of a ship with a command bonus to mining links that could enter highsec.
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Kamikazie
Amarr AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:13:00 -
[140]
A buddy in my alliance swears its 94k with rigs and + corp hangars is 120k m3 cargohold. Dunno how true it is or how well his math was done.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:16:00 -
[141]
Originally by: I SoStoned Are you going to seed the BPO's where people can actually find them, not some ass-end-of-nowhere 0.0 system that gives the holding alliance 100% of the income since they keep those systems (only 2) locked down?
Asked and answered on the first page of this thread by CCP Fallout
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:23:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Clansworth on 23/10/2008 21:22:50
Originally by: I SoStoned Edited by: I SoStoned on 23/10/2008 21:15:08 Are you going to seed the BPO's where people can actually find them, not some ass-end-of-nowhere 0.0 system that gives the holding alliance 100% of the income since they keep those systems (only 2) locked down?
Already answered by the devs on page 1. It will be seeded in ORE stations, AND DMC stations (Deep Core Mining Inc.), as the ship was a joint venture between those two. The skill will be seeded throughout the empire school stations. Originally by: I SoStoned
There are some faults with it:
No ore compression capability (1 or 2 would be nice, but make them 1/2 as fast as a Rorq).
honestly, this wouldn't work. It simply wouldn't be fast enough to keep up with ANY sort of a mining op, and would equate to a lot of wasted effort for little gain. Better option would be to allow freighter docking, so space isn't as much an issue. Originally by: I SoStoned
Not enough PG/CPU to fit a single gang module, much less 2 (notice: no bonuses for fitting gang modules!!! Base gang module CPU is 5000!)
It isn't typed out in the description, but rest assured, the fitting adjustment is there. If it isn't, it certainly will be before it reaches TQ. Originally by: I SoStoned
Not enough highslots for a big, slow, poorly armed (50m/3 dronebay? Come on!) ship. Without tractors it has to get up the ass of its mining fleet, or it has to fit multiple tractor beams, rendering it unable to use the gang modules (that it can't fit anyway).
Why do you say it can't fit tractors? It can fit a 2 mining links (the two useful ones), and one tractor, which can pull in a jetcan once every 70 seconds, minimum, from 70km away. That's enough to keep up with a pretty decent sized op. An op bigger than what that could keep up with would rapidly fill up the orca's hold anyways, so you'd still need multiple orcas, or some other large hauling o****ion (like the aforementioned freighter dock. |
Icarus Starkiller
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:28:00 -
[143]
One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!! |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:28:00 -
[144]
Originally by: I SoStoned
Not enough PG/CPU to fit a single gang module, much less 2 (notice: no bonuses for fitting gang modules!!! Base gang module CPU is 5000!)
Yea it gets the same bonus as the rorq (on SiSi) for gang modules. |
Rramar Claime
Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:29:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Mioelnir
Originally by: Rramar Claime Ok im reading what you guys write, its a hisec hauler with cool bonuses
No, its a command ship barge with a cool cargo bay.
The primary reason for its inception was (to the best of my knowledge) the absense of a ship with a command bonus to mining links that could enter highsec.
What do you mean enter hisec?? It can't leave hisec lol! M8 if you try to leave empire in a ship with those attributes your name will be famous on intel channels...
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:30:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!!
It has no turret slots. |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:31:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!!
No turret points, can't fit Mining Lasers... most it could to is throw out 5 Mining Drone II's.. not much threat there..
besides, even with it's size, it is still quite suicidable. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:37:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 23/10/2008 21:39:53
Originally by: Fulber
Rorqual is a capital. Not a subcapital. Not a supercapital.
Orca is a subcapital. Not a capital. Not a supercapital.
Capital Ship components and Capital Ship construction skills are used for subcapitals, capitals, and supercapitals.
Sure. But all three (sub, super, and regular) are all of a similar type, which I am (and have been) referring to as capital ships. Their general usage and scope is beyond that of most single pilots, and are largely intended for group and corporate use.
Quote:
- You stated the Orca is the same class as the Rorqual. - You stated all ORE ships require Mining Barge V.
You misread me, x2.
The Orca is a similar ship to the Rorqual, in that it falls under the general umbrella of capital (sub, super, and regular) ship, as I explained above.
Both ships are produced by ORE, and because they're capitals, require their largest non-capital (sub, super, and regular) similar ship skillbook trained to five as a prereq (Gallente carrier requires Gal BS V, Caldari Freighter requires Caldari Industrial V). ORE doesn't have any others, so Mining barge it is.
In short: -The Orca is a 'capital' ship, in that its usage is intended for multiple players -The Orca is produced by ORE -Therefore, the Orca is a 'capital' ORE ship -All 'capital' ships require a similar racial skillbook trained to five -As no others exist, the best racial skillbook is Mining Barges -Therefore, the Orca should require Barges V.
Happy? _____________________
The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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Icarus Starkiller
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.10.23 21:52:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Clansworth
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!!
No turret points, can't fit Mining Lasers... most it could to is throw out 5 Mining Drone II's.. not much threat there..
besides, even with it's size, it is still quite suicidable.
Who cares what it can or cannot fit in its highslots... just keep it out of the hands of people who don't want to play the game in the spirit the game was intended to be played (NPC corp invulnerability). NPC corps need a major nerf, especially with patches in the pipe to boost industrial classes.
The war declaration system, and war flagging, also needs a distinct examination to improve functionality, especially against dodgers. |
Red Harvest
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:03:00 -
[150]
Only thing im missing are 2-3 extra hi-slots, the 3 hi slots i has are a bit low if you actually plan to use it with 1-2 command modules. 2 command modules + 2-3 tractor beams would be perfect or 2-3 tractor beams and some salvagers the serious mission cleaners. (man i would love to ninja salvage with that one ) |
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Beldaws
Gallente Freelancing Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:05:00 -
[151]
They already have ships like this for 0.0. They are called NPC convoys.
Let the NPCs do the mining, and you just take the minerals from them when they are done.
Originally by: Ultan Devastator Edited by: Ultan Devastator on 23/10/2008 19:28:44 Skills dictate a mining ship.
what we truely need is a 0.0 mining ship that can be limited to mining say kernite to veld only. 3 times bigger than a hulk. has a "mining Siege" module. makes you stuck for say 6 minutes. but your 3 miners work really fast ( 1 minute a cycle per beam in siege) to chew up the low end ores.
you will still need haulers to offload these BELT ENDERS. but i firmly believe, in zero zero, we need a ship that will help us get the low ends mined
4 high (3 turret) 4 mid 2 low 2 rigs cargo size max size with t1 rigs and t2 expanders would need to be 75 k
drone bay 145 m3 ( 5 mining drones. 3 heavy 2 medium combat)
10 % all resist shields per level (skill is rank 8 )
This is what orca would be in my mind.
Ultan
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Wei Yakamoto
Caldari Hatori Mining Services DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:10:00 -
[152]
Hi everyone, I have been waiting for this ship a long time, and its more or less what I expected it to be. Now I just wish I hadn't bought adv. spaceship command and industrial reconfig. skill last night :)
Anyways, good job CCP on a beautiful ship that I will buy as soon as I can get my hands on one.
/ Wei |
Moon Dogg
Gallente The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:14:00 -
[153]
ooo! 5% bonus to cargo capactiy per skill level of Industrial Command Ships...I missed that the first time around. |
Vyktor Abyss
IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:15:00 -
[154]
New ships are always great to hear about! Here's some thoughts:
I'm not an expert but isn't this an industrial type of ship? So why the mining barge 5?
Shouldn't it have industrial/hauler skill requirements? If it is not a mining (only mining support) ship itself then Mining barge 5 seems too exclusive.
What about folks who want to use it for POS work etc? Seems harsh that its a new toy solely for miners use and not for specialised haulers/POS industrialists.
Cheers. |
sergei C
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:17:00 -
[155]
Thoughts on Orca
1-Nice cargo (Would never turn down more space though) 2-Corp Hanger is great (Love the added security of no more jet cans) 3-Ship bay could be larger (But understandable because of smaller size of the Orca) 4-No ore compression (Not good, but can live without it) 5-No allowance for more than one active Mining Foreman Link. (Very Bad) 6-Too low CPU to effectively mount Command Processors to allow more than one active link. (Even Worse) 7-Too few High Slots to mount Links + Tractor. (I'll be better off in BC or CS, can even salvage while waiting) 8-Low Shield/Armor/Hull (Understandable to keep it out of missions, but would like my 500m+ investment to be a bit safer from suicide gank squads) 9-Drones (Again with only 25 Mbit/sec I'm better off with my Hurricane for protecting miners from belt rats) 10-Thank you CCP (No sarcasm here its nice to get some love)
Off to do some testing. |
Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:23:00 -
[156]
One thing i would like to see to change:
- Cargohold, maybe a 50k base should work better, making it more versetile. (Also for pos guys.) (or add more low slots Itty Mk5 style.) - Corp hangar, size is good in my eyes. - Ship Maintenance bay. 400k is small, it can fit 2 hulks, maybe make it so it can take 4 of them. so 800k. Or make a bonus that industrials will take 50% less space. - Make it able to use 2 foreman links, instead of one. Its an Industrial Command schip...
Some cosmetics: Use some more lights and some moving parts to make him more intresting, he is a bit dull too look at now.) Dronebay: 50m3 is good but then let it be able to use 5 meds. OR expand the cargohold to use 5 ogres/harvester drones.
Idea: Ore Compression Unit. Uses up one high slot, will be put on front of the ship at the parts who look like they build for some upgrade. This will make it able to compres. Wich makes it even more better for mining.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:33:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Zeba on 23/10/2008 22:34:38
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I think 90k m3 might be a bit low for a "mini"-freighter. I think you should be able to push it higher without having to nerf the thing completely.
How fast is this thing going to be compared to a freighter?
It goes a little slower and a little less agile than a battleship.
The capacity could go up and will not rule that out yet.
Thread tl;dr so I'll go from the last dev post.
Easy fix from giving too much m3 cargo space would be to include some form of ore compression? It wouldn't have to be as efficient as the rorquals so as to not make the Orca a cheap 0.0 replacement but at least efficient enough to negate the need for a hauler alt. Take your average four man hulk mining op with three hulks and one hauler. If you want to bring in the Orca with its current stats then you will need to add a fifth member in a hauler to keep up with increased yield the Orca will bring to the op. Even with the max 90k m3 (at nearly a billion additional isk for the t2 cargo rigs!) you will need to dock and unload about every 6 cycles. With the Orcas low agility you will then lose out on about 2 or even 3 cycles of command bonus yield. Add in the fact that for a fraction of the cost in isk and skill reqs you could park a bc with the mining links in a belt fitted with miner II and get an additional yield nearly equal to a retreiver. As is the orca without ore compression even with the corp and maint hangers is a poor choice over just adding a bc to your op.
On a positive note its one sexy ORE ship and looks right at home nest to a flock of hulks.
Also on an optimistic note I'll take this quote at the end of the dev blog as a ray of hope!
Originally by: Dev Blog Remember, the stats above are not final and are subject to change!
Ave - Chronotis
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Chian XinLian
Darwin's Contraptions
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:39:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Great Smirnov
well, may be you forgot, but people do mine on missions in highsec and there definitelly battleship spawns, that kill ordinary hulks in seconds.
May I inquire how many missions you have mined in highsec? If you truly can answer with a number above 0 to the question then follow up question: Have you ever considered clearing the rats from the mission first before bringing in exhumer/barge?
If you on the other hand answered either question no - let me tell you.
After you kill rats from mission in highsec and hit the roids with your miner of choice - biggest respawns you see on the "field" is regular frig rats that spawn on regular highsec belts too. No bigger, no badder.
Originally by: Great Smirnov
It has bonuses for range and speed of tractors. What for you need such bonuses rather then to drag the wrecks to you for loot/salvage?
It is not a salvage/loot ship for missions. It is mining support ship for mining gangs. Notice the plural. Not every exhumer/barge is next to each other in belt. Orca just sits there and when miner reports his/her can full, orca can just grab a target to it and pull it next to him/herself from distance with speed.
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:46:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Zeba Easy fix from giving too much m3 cargo space would be to include some form of ore compression? It wouldn't have to be as efficient as the rorquals so as to not make the Orca a cheap 0.0 replacement but at least efficient enough to negate the need for a hauler alt. Take your average four man hulk mining op with three hulks and one hauler. If you want to bring in the Orca with its current stats then you will need to add a fifth member in a hauler to keep up with increased yield the Orca will bring to the op. Even with the max 90k m3 (at nearly a billion additional isk for the t2 cargo rigs!) you will need to dock and unload about every 6 cycles. With the Orcas low agility you will then lose out on about 2 or even 3 cycles of command bonus yield. Add in the fact that for a fraction of the cost in isk and skill reqs you could park a bc with the mining links in a belt fitted with miner II and get an additional yield nearly equal to a retreiver. As is the orca without ore compression even with the corp and maint hangers is a poor choice over just adding a bc to your op.
Actually, the 90,000m¦ is with tech 1 rigs, so it's not THAT extreme in price.
30,000(base)*1.25(skill)*1.275*1.275(2 Expanded II's)*1.15*1.15*1.15(3 rig I's) = 92713.97m¦
Adding tech II rigs brings it to 100951.31m¦.
It also has the Corp hanger that can be used (but not by NPC corp members.. )
POS Personal Storage |
gordon861
Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:49:00 -
[160]
Loooks good, but one major problem.
3 high slots (it needs 4)
There are 3x mining gang links, and you need to fit a tractor beam to it.
Also, a 200k m3 cargo bay would have been a lot more reasonable. |
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Klandi
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.23 22:55:00 -
[161]
*sigh*
Still waiting for a Cap Class Mining ship - one where you use it to mine rather than logistically help ppl mine and one you DO NEED mining barge/exhumer V for... |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:00:00 -
[162]
At the risk of NOOB statements, can a freighter access a corp hanger bay of the carriers / rorq / Orca? Ive had my freighter and rorq in the same system but never tried it :(
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Evanhawk
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:03:00 -
[163]
Needs more cowbell... er drone bay. I don't see why a ship like this couldn't support 125m3 and 125mb/s drone capacity. |
Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:12:00 -
[164]
Originally by: gordon861 Loooks good, but one major problem.
3 high slots (it needs 4)
There are 3x mining gang links, and you need to fit a tractor beam to it.
Also, a 200k m3 cargo bay would have been a lot more reasonable.
Maybe the intention is to make you choose two, rather than letting you have all of the cake. |
Blaster Babe
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:14:00 -
[165]
Dev 3: We got a problem to many people are quitting eve! We need to fix this!
Dev 1: Quick lets get a ship into the release so people will stop canceling their subscriptions from the Speed Nerf -Combat Changes, let appeal to the industrialists, they will save Eve for another year.
Dev 2: First take the Charon model, which is nice and blocky, and tailor to look like the Ore Syndicate ship, they will never know.
Dev 1: Says to Dev 2, I know with this ship people will really stop *****ing about what we did to the carriers last year because now we have given them a true replacement of that functionality, we are geniuses!
Dev 2: Do you think they will buy this?
Dev 1: Sure look they are loving it look at the forum posts!
Dev 2: Yeah if we give them a new ship all the bad changes seem to be forgotten!
Dev 1 Yep, easy.. done I should get a raise!
Dev 3: Ah guys sorry no raise, we are laying you off, everyone is quitting Eve... Nice dev blog today, get out, here take a snow cone with you, it's beer flavored! I swear that why the snow is yellow...
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Gunny Fresh
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:15:00 -
[166]
This is going to be a great ship! I can not wait til i can get my hands on one. |
Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:16:00 -
[167]
Blaster Babe missed the part where this ship has been known about for the last year.
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Blaster Babe
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:23:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Caiman Graystock Blaster Babe missed the part where this ship has been known about for the last year.
Planning a ship a year ago, and then tossing it into this patch is different to add something positive? They have many ships planned... take your sugar pill and be a happy idiot.
Don't worry with all the great announcements at Fan Fest all you happy idiots will be paying for this game another year at least!
CFO: Our quarter is looking bad guys, I know you want to wait until Fanfest to make all the announcements about walking around stations, t3, tier 2 battle cruisers being turned into tech 2 variants, but we need something now.
Dev 3: I better start playing Eve again I have lost touch with the customers.
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:39:00 -
[169]
Quote: Don't worry with all the great announcements at Fan Fest all you happy idiots will be paying for this game another year at least!
So why are you still here? |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.23 23:44:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Blaster Babe *The pungent stench of tears and shame emanate from this post*
Can I have your main's stuff and isk? |
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Chian XinLian
Darwin's Contraptions
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:03:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Chian XinLian on 24/10/2008 00:03:39
Originally by: Mikal Drey Mining Barge V <---- is this a TII ship ??
No. Mining Barge is tech1 ship skill. Your fetching for exhumer skill which is tech2 ship skill.
Quote: Astrogeology III <---- makes sense due to the scanning capability
No it doesnt make sense, again - astrometrics is the skill affecting scanning. Astrogeology is prereq for mining barge skill.
Quote:
Science IV Mining IV Industry V <---- errr why ? its not like its doing any industrial task
Oh boy.. Do you know anything about skills? Again, above skills are prereqs for Mining Barge skill.
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gfldex
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:07:00 -
[172]
I would give it a bonus to ore space need. That way it could haul like mad in a mining gang but wont outclass freighters. With it's current slot layout it's high sec only. It can't even tank a cruiser spawn. --
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
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Blaster Babe
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:11:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Caiman Graystock
Quote: Don't worry with all the great announcements at Fan Fest all you happy idiots will be paying for this game another year at least!
So why are you still here?
I will make it simple for you since it isn't obvious. Using my last days before the subs end to make devs understand that they making mistakes that will force me and many others to quit playing forever after spending years enjoying the game.
If you had listened to the DevBlog today, you would have heard Zulupark or "Private Gump" state, "Sometimes game design decisions are made and the consideration for the customers opinion is a secondary concern."
I am sure someone will post a link, and you can listen to yourself. I disagree with this Zulupark statement made, CCP was built on making a fun game that we all play and love, these changes reduce the fun for most combat pilots.
Zulupark should be told also that he shouldn't attempt humor during a live dev blog, this and design decisions, public speaking, and anything related to making games should be avoided for him. Have him run the snow cone machine, and sweep the floors.
Once happy customer,
-Blaster Babe
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Makko Gray
Gallente Nexus Aerospace Corporation Leather Rose Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:27:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Blaster Babe Edited by: Blaster Babe on 24/10/2008 00:17:09
Originally by: Caiman Graystock
Quote: Don't worry with all the great announcements at Fan Fest all you happy idiots will be paying for this game another year at least!
So why are you still here?
I will make it simple for you since it isn't obvious. Using my last days before the subs end to make devs understand that they are making mistakes that will force me and many others to quit playing forever after spending years enjoying the game.
If you had listened to the DevBlog today, you would have heard Zulupark or "Private Gump" state, "Sometimes game design decisions are made and the consideration for the customers opinion is a secondary concern."
I am sure someone will post a link, and you can listen to yourself. I disagree with this Zulupark statement made, CCP was built on making a fun game that we all play and love, these changes reduce the fun for most combat pilots.
Zulupark should be told also that he shouldn't attempt humor during a live dev blog, this and design decisions, public speaking, and anything related to making games should be avoided for him. Have him run the snow cone machine, and sweep the floors.
Once happy customer, oh Zulu I even think with the IQ statement you even fail at kissing Exec Arse, keep trying though, EA might be a good place for you, come to the Job Fair at GDC, EA could be a nice place to restart your gaming career, they will teach you to pucker well.
-Blaster Babe
All I can hope is that your subs end soon so we won't have to listen to your sad pathetic whining anymore. Rest in peace Blaster Babe.
As for the devs I think they're doing a great job - keep up the good work. |
ChaoticDemon
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:34:00 -
[175]
It's an industrial command ship should have similar requirements to a command ship and should have similar abilitys at least 5 high slots able 2 fit 3 links I'd say at least 150 m3 drone bay and at least 50 bandwidth I can understand limited low slots to reduce people expanding like crazy I trained an alt for command ships but unless it can fit a decent tank and fit at least 3 links and a tractor and salvager don't think I'd take the time to train it although would be a decent step to the rorqual |
Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:34:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Evanhawk Needs more cowbell... er drone bay. I don't see why a ship like this couldn't support 125m3 and 125mb/s drone capacity.
I think its to encourage people to use it the way its supposed to, its a high sec ship it doesn't need 5 heavy drones. |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:42:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Blaster Babe Edited by: Blaster Babe on 24/10/2008 00:17:09
Originally by: Caiman Graystock
Quote: Don't worry with all the great announcements at Fan Fest all you happy idiots will be paying for this game another year at least!
So why are you still here?
I will make it simple for you since it isn't obvious. Using my last days before the subs end to make devs understand that they are making mistakes that will force me and many others to quit playing forever after spending years enjoying the game.
If you had listened to the DevBlog today, you would have heard Zulupark or "Private Gump" state, "Sometimes game design decisions are made and the consideration for the customers opinion is a secondary concern."
I am sure someone will post a link, and you can listen to yourself. I disagree with this Zulupark statement made, CCP was built on making a fun game that we all play and love, these changes reduce the fun for most combat pilots.
Zulupark should be told also that he shouldn't attempt humor during a live dev blog, this and design decisions, public speaking, and anything related to making games should be avoided for him. Have him run the snow cone machine, and sweep the floors.
Once happy customer, oh Zulu I even think with the IQ statement you even fail at kissing Exec Arse, keep trying though, EA might be a good place for you, come to the Job Fair at GDC, EA could be a nice place to restart your gaming career, they will teach you to pucker well.
-Blaster Babe
Wow, talk about a blow to the eve community. You will be missed. :/
Trolls are wonderful, aren't they? the ship was being planned for over a year, virtually since the release of the Rorqual. The expansion was announced a month before the current PR nightmare, so is hardly 'damage control' as so many of the whiners have mentioned. And most importantly, the Orca is something that a large part of the playerbase that had been previously skipped over by many of your 'combat expansions'. Even so, the features so far announced for the so called 'industrial expansion' have been as combat related as industrial. So far, I think the orca is the only industrial addition to the game they've talked about. other than that, you have the weapon stacking (definately not industrial), and some corp tools, such as the decorations and storefronts, and some extra guides, in the form of certificates. The Orca is a good thing, as evident that this thread got to the 7th page before trolls like you made it in to spread your crapfest about.
I say bring on more details on this killer ship, so far, I'm definately liking the prospects of effectively mining into freighters! |
Chian XinLian
Darwin's Contraptions
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:53:00 -
[178]
Now, after reaching the end of the thread..
It seems that cargohold is what irks most people (me too).. I would love to see bigger (but restricted only to ore) cargohold.. If you need to ferry something else with this _mining command ship_, use the limited corp hangar you're given..
If we take a look into this fantasy some call real life, there too is machines designed purely for transfering crap loads of rocks/earth and they are quite inefficient at transfering something else..
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:56:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 24/10/2008 00:56:06
Originally by: Constance Harme
Originally by: Evanhawk Needs more cowbell... er drone bay. I don't see why a ship like this couldn't support 125m3 and 125mb/s drone capacity.
I think its to encourage people to use it the way its supposed to, its a high sec ship it doesn't need 5 heavy drones.
Heavies no, but it would be nice to be able to field 5 mediums, let the ship be somewhat survivable in low sec, let it survive cruiser rats, but a rorqual would still be a good idea in low sec and a necessity in 0.0 -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:56:00 -
[180]
The thing is, if your true goal is to move large amounts of goods/ore/whatever, the freighters are still the best option, and they should remain so. a freighter can service a mining operation quite well, and this ship, if nothing else, is the bridge that makes that a reality.
POS Personal Storage |
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:58:00 -
[181]
BTW have BPOs been seeded on sisi yet? I would like to know what materials are required and how long it will take to reasearch and manufacture -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Blaster Babe
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:58:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Blaster Babe on 24/10/2008 01:00:26 LF not really known for combat, lets say you did fight out in 0 space at some point of your industry career in Eve, you actually played sisi and tried the changes? This isn't a forum troll, this is a plea for sanity.
Sorry go back to mining... nm
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.24 00:59:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 24/10/2008 00:56:06
Originally by: Constance Harme
Originally by: Evanhawk Needs more cowbell... er drone bay. I don't see why a ship like this couldn't support 125m3 and 125mb/s drone capacity.
I think its to encourage people to use it the way its supposed to, its a high sec ship it doesn't need 5 heavy drones.
Heavies no, but it would be nice to be able to field 5 mediums, let the ship be somewhat survivable in low sec, let it survive cruiser rats, but a rorqual would still be a good idea in low sec and a necessity in 0.0
I still think this would be useful in null-sec, as it could be used int he belt. A proper 0.0 mining operation would have decent military support anyways, to assist in locking down the system, so they could still provide the necessary NPC protection/tank. This ship, unlike the Rorqual, is not as much a sitting duck, and as such can actually stay in the belt, providing the tractor abilities, to consolidate ore for hauler pick-up. This ships mobility would even lend well to being the ferry that take the ore to the Rorqual at the POS for compression. This would actually be ideal, because the Rorq could provide the bonuses, leaving the orca to fit up 3 tractors, and clean the belt's cans up with each trip.
POS Personal Storage |
Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:03:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Chribba **** yeah!
What he said,
this ship looks really sexy, both in graphics and role, good job |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:05:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Blaster Babe Edited by: Blaster Babe on 24/10/2008 01:00:26 LF not really known for combat, lets say you did fight out in 0 space at some point of your industry career in Eve, you actually played sisi and tried the changes? This isn't a forum troll, this is a plea for sanity.
Sorry go back to mining... nm
If you care, I have been in LFA for 1 whole week, so hardly a method to judge my history.
Originally by: Xindi Kraid BTW have BPOs been seeded on sisi yet? I would like to know what materials are required and how long it will take to reasearch and manufacture
Xindi, from page 6:
Originally by: Clansworth Speaking on singulatity: Orca Stats from SiSi
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:33:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Great Smirnov If it is supposed due to tractor bonuses to salvage stuff then this is a laughter. 2 tractors and 1 salvager? Or 1 tractor and 2 salvagers? How long it will take to salvage a mission, 3-4 hours, one wreck by one? Completely inefficient.
Rubbish...I can salvage a typical level IV with 1 tractor and 1 salvage (on the battleship for the mission) in about 20 minutes, which includes the flying time. 70km tractor with increased speed means I don't need to fly the Orca very far in most cases. I would like one extra high slot but it is not as bad as you say.
I do agree it is not especially good at anything - weak tank, weak high slot capability, weak drones (very weak) and it is not sensible to require mining skill when the ship can't fit a mining laser of any kind. Transport ships skill would be more appropriate, for sure.
I would be willing to lose the mining gang module capability in exchange for some more general-purpose options like an extra slot or more drone space. The badger Mark II has some hardpoints and more mid-slots, so really the Orca should have equally wide fitting options.
On the other hand, you could always dock a destroyer and many assault frigates with the ship. For me it's more interesting to consider it as a mini-dreadnaught/carrier rather than a mini rorqual.
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:40:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 24/10/2008 01:41:52
Originally by: Clansworth
I still think this would be useful in null-sec, as it could be used int he belt.
It will be usefull in 0.0, but the belt rats will eat it for lunch if they get too close since its not a 0.0 ship.
The rorqual can tank rats decently and has a drone bay to fight back. The orca does not -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
sergei C
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:53:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Anig Browl
I would be willing to lose the mining gang module capability in exchange for some more general-purpose options like an extra slot or more drone space. The badger Mark II has some hardpoints and more mid-slots, so really the Orca should have equally wide fitting options.
I'm glad you're not calling the shots at CCP. Without the Links and gang bonuses there's not much reason for the Orca.
To the players who want a new middle-sized freighter, dedicated salvager ship, mini-dread, capital mining ship, etc, etc, etc. You will have to beg CCP for it then wait a year just like we did.
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Vincent Jarjadian
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:57:00 -
[189]
I dont have an alteration suggestion... but just a question.
The Hulk has 4 midslots, why does this have only 3?
cargo expanders mean shield tanking, and youve got room for only a scanner, shield booster and 1 hardener. no room for an afterburner. also only 3 highs: a tractor and 2 gang links, no room for remote reppers should the rats that can hit hard damage someone, and no room to extend your 60KM drone range.
If your in hidden belts, the rats can hit hard and this might not be able to stand against those. letalone kill them efficiently.
Otherwise, looking good. Cant wait to build myself one. |
Maglorre
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:58:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Maglorre on 24/10/2008 02:03:24
Originally by: Kalderion Mar At the risk of NOOB statements, can a freighter access a corp hanger bay of the carriers / rorq / Orca? Ive had my freighter and rorq in the same system but never tried it :(
Often wondered this myself but never had a chance to try it out. I would imagine that it is not possible except maybe if you are at a POS (and then if it's still not possible you can do the jet can shuffle or use a corp hangar array ).
I have tested using a freighter with a jet can at a POS and that works as expected (i.e. you can't create one yourself but you are able to take from and add to existing one)
I would imagine that allowing a freighter to interface with the corp hangars in capitals (sub and super capitals as well for the more pedantic among you) outside of the POS is not intended to work. I'd be terribly happy if I was wrong though
Is anyone able to c/d this? |
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 01:58:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Viktor Speranza Mining Foreman 3? That sounds a touch low. You need Mining Director for the mining warfare gang links. So why would you not need Mining Director for the Orca?
Well, I for one don't plan to do more than occasional mining in it.
Quote: Also 3 high slots, good idea. Anymore and you will see mission runners using these to just salvage and not for their purpose.
Which is exactly what I plan to do. Who are you to say what its purpose is? It's an industrial ship, not a mining barge. I use my industrial for courier work, garbage hauling, and salvage/mining logistic support. I really don't care about being able to fit mining foreman links and have no plans to ever train the mining director skill.
I do like the idea of showing up somewhere and launching 20 assault frigates though. This has awesome possibilities as a mini-carrier |
Demjon
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:01:00 -
[192]
CCP Congrats!
I think you have just created the cure to jet can mining
All you have to do now is create a system that transfers ore from mining vessels to these ore collection ships(rorqual, orca). while a barge mines ore is transported to its cargo hold, as long as the collection ship is in range and in gang the link is active automatically transfering the ore from the barge to the collection ship using similar technology to the strip miner and tractor beam.
We will call this an ore collection array.
This array only works on ORE vessels. Haulers should be able to take ore from the collection ships to keep mining ops moving.
So congrats to you CCP Finally less objects to maintain on the server and less lag |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:04:00 -
[193]
Originally by: sergei C To the players who want a new middle-sized freighter, dedicated salvager ship, mini-dread, capital mining ship, etc, etc, etc. You will have to beg CCP for it then wait a year just like we did.
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:05:00
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Artmedis Valben
Gallente Lobster of Babel
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:07:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Artmedis Valben on 24/10/2008 02:10:24 1 more high slot, and it can fit 3 gang links and a tractor. 1 more low slot, and it could be brought to above 120km3 hold. 1 more med slot and it could fit a decent shield tank.
I'd say 75m3 drone bay and 50mbit bandwith for a flight of Mediums and a flight of mining drones or (lights as replacement).
If a Freighter can take from the corp hangar you have a winner if somewhat multifunctional...
Regarding skills: Mining Barge V (definately in line with the Rorqual) Mining Director I (since it is a ship designed for Mining Directors) Warefare Link Specialist IV (in line with other command ships)
That should do I think
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:17:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Una D That is the problem with orca. It is not specilaised enough. Make 2 ships. 1 mining support command ship (mineral compression is a must. No go without that) and one high sec carrier. That way they can actually do well in their intended roles instead of being sucky at both.
THIS. I am fine with people using it for mining, enjoy - but that's not why I'm interested in it. I am thinking military support/high risk shipping all the way, baby.
No offense to miners, but you already have 3 barges, 3 exhumers, and a capital, not to mention a shipload of specialist modules. Racial industrials have between 2 and 5 models and the transport ships are not all that much better considering you need a million SP to fly them (although who knows what will happen with that).
And let's recall, an 'Orca' is a KILLER whale. Not a nice blue whale that eats plankton (minerals). When an Orca appears near you, maybe it will be peaceful or maybe it will be trouble... |
Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:28:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Abrazzar Why turrets? use mining drones if you want to exploit the cargo hold. You won't get anything effective out of it anyways. Turrets are totally unnecessary.
Pew pew
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:37:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Beldaws They already have ships like this for 0.0. They are called NPC convoys.
Let the NPCs do the mining, and you just take the minerals from them when they are done.
Good point. I've always felt that piracy vs. NPCs is one of the really underdeveloped parts of Eve. It should have the same amount of variety and incentive as ratting. |
demon flir
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:39:00 -
[198]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: SeismicForce
One question, can you put all ships into the maintenance bay, or only barges/industrials like the rorq?
it is unrestricted because we wanted to ease the issue of transporting rigged ships around. This is a change from the rorqual however was made for different reasons. We may well review the rorqual again and revamp its role in the future to remove that restriction but no promises.
Can we get a ship maintenance bay that can at least hold 1 BS?
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:45:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 24/10/2008 02:45:22
Needs more maintenance bay if it is to be used to move rigged ships. Needs more hi-slots if it is to be a tractorbeam using mining command ship
Needs a tier/tech two version released in the next few months that requires exhumer V and can fit at least four strip miners. Macrominers be damned, their existence should not deny the mining community access to a capital mining ship. |
Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:47:00 -
[200]
All of you asking for a bigger cargo hold, this ship isn't a hauler. This ship's purpose is to sit at the center of the belt and do two things:
1. Provide miners with bonuses. 2. Tractor in full jetcans and empty them into its hold for temporary storage.
The storage is temporary for one reason: it has a ship maintenance array, which means you can pull up next to it with a FREIGHTER and drag the 120,000 m3 of ore into the freighter for hauling.
Miners mine, Orca drags the cans and aggregates the ore into a big pile inside, and a freighter hauls to station.
Perfect operation.
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sergei C
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:53:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Alz Shado
Originally by: sergei C To the players who want a new middle-sized freighter, dedicated salvager ship, mini-dread, capital mining ship, etc, etc, etc. You will have to beg CCP for it then wait a year just like we did.
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:05:00
Point taken.
Many have been begging for these kinds of ships for a while now.
If CCP can find it in there harts to add these things to the Orca, I'll be glad to share. Just please don't try to get the things that make it a good mining support ship removed as part of the deal.
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Kara Rhane
Gallente Rhane's Research and Development Labs.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 02:54:00 -
[202]
Well since I'm known for some colorful posts (literally) and I'd really like to make sure some players and their opinions are heard on this topic, I'm going to pick out some quotes and questions for the devs.
I'll sort them in the following order. 1. Most requested feature 2. Question about fit/fittings 3. Unintended features that might be problematic.
Lets begin.
1. Can the cargo size be increased, or can an additional low slot be added About 30% of the people in this thread have asked for more space or an additional low slot for more hauling capacity.
Can there be an additional mid slot for better shield tanking This one is iffy, if CCP intends this ship to never go to 0.0 I can understand why it only has the amount it does. But a 4th mid slot would allow better tanking, or the inclusion of an AB or more important a SCANNER
With this being primarily used for mining command links, can we get an additional high slot to accommodate 3 links and a tractor? I can see the sense in this, however even if people only use 2 of the links (the capacitor link seems useless) we'd only have 1 tractor left over. Maybe a compromise would be to make 4 high slots and give the ship a fitting spread that would only favor a tight upper fit in CPU. Then tractor beams as well as mining links would get 99% CPU reductions?
With this being the first player ship WITH a corp hanger bay that can enter empire space does the possibility exist where illegal substances such as boosters and other illegal goods can be 'snuck' by Customs by housing them in the corp hanger? This is a very valid point I hadn't even considered, is there anything in place for customs officals to check the corp hangers now?
At present the Orca CANNOT fit in the rorqual ship maintenance array this ship seems to compliment it's 'big brother' quite well, would it be possible to decrease the size of the ship enough so that the rorqual can jump one? I hadn't thought of this either, even with the way the ship is setup as a mid point between various classes it is very useful, was this intentional? Or would it be possible to make the Orca be able to be moved around by a rorqual?
The ship maintenance array cannot hold a BS, can this be increased? Gotta admit I see the logic in this one and why it also ISN'T included either, however moving rigged battleships around would be helpful. If this isn't in the cards, can we get an explanation as to why you(CCP) believe it shouldn't be?
If the fitting an extra low slot is a problem, maybe skill change? This is a personal one. Maybe a 7.5% or 10% increase of cargo capacity per level? I have seen/heard/been on mining ops where they are filling a jet can an average of every 2.4 minutes. I love mining as much as anyone, but with that we're other going to need more space or fall behind. I really do want to see this ship be as useful as possible without 'breaking' the game. Please consider more cargo or extra low slots, or even both and maybe make the cargo hold be ore only and increase it 2x? that part in red is a pipe dream but many people asked for it.
'CCP Chronotis' - "The capacity could go up and will not rule that out yet" I saw you take the players concerns with the rorqual to use "Heavy water" instead of "Ozone" right to heart and honestly I thought that was great, I'm hoping these above requests from MANY DIFFERENT PLAYERS will be heard enough to simply consider some of the requests (note NOT demands).
Thank you CCP and Chronotis, I personally just want to bring the above issues to light and hope to see this ship soon. Good job (not sarcasm).
-Kara ***** Rhane's Research and Development LabsÖ
Click to search our Ammo's, Missiles, and Drone BPO sets. |
Infinion
Caldari Retribution Enterprises Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:23:00 -
[203]
Originally by: LaVista Vista This sounds pretty damn awesome.
I assume we can put everything up to battleships into the ship maint. bay, right?
I think 90k m3 might be a bit low for a "mini"-freighter. I think you should be able to push it higher without having to nerf the thing completely.
How fast is this thing going to be compared to a freighter?
well, think about it dude. If it has a main cargohold of 30,000 that can be expanded to 90,000 as well as with a corp hangar with a cargohold of 30,000, you can push 180,000 m3. Not to mention a ship maint bay with 400,000 m3 you could put haulers in them and fill them up as well (not sure about the maint bay though, I thought I heard something a while back about an ammunition & charges only rule when having items in a stored ship)
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:24:00 -
[204]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Jethro Jechonias
Originally by: Vigilant Edit: where is bpo going to be sold at? Please say "empire space" and not outer ring ;)
Given the explicit statement: Quote: The Orca is a collaboration between Outer Ring Excavations and Deep Core Mining Inc.
I would expect that you could pick up the BPO in stations owned by either corp.
correct, both corporations will sell the blueprint from their stations. The skill will be sold at the school corps in the main empires.
I would like to point out that from my corp's RP perspective this is a 'big deal'. We are moving away from using ORE's products because we are a Caldari corp and don't want to operate or build ships that are from what was/is a Gallente corp (maybe not a Federation corp anymore, but a Gallente corp none the less). The fact that instead of having to put money into the hand of ORE it can be DMC makes me smile :)
To those saying it is an ORE ship, you are forgetting it is also a DMC ship, so should it require Caldari Cruiser V since the Osprey (Caldari Mining Cruiser) is a Caldari ship and DMC is Caldari?
The ability to transport its own sub-BS protection I like, even if it isn't a ton of ships.
It can't run all 3 Mining Command Links without also using 2 command processors - is this intended?
2 additional high slots would be useful so that having to choose between Mining Command Links and tractor beams isn't a problem. Unless of course you don't expect people to use the Orca as the actual command vessel and just as a tractor beam platform.
For future industrial ships could we see other corporations' mining ships? ORE is not the only mining corp out there. Like more DMC ships? Maybe a T2 Mining Osprey :)
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:35:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Constance Harme I think its to encourage people to use it the way its supposed to, its a high sec ship it doesn't need 5 heavy drones.
I disagree with this idea of 'xxxx is how you are supposed to use a ship'. The best part of Eve is that many ships are flexible enough to be used in unpredictable ways. You can find video of a hauler fleet taking out battleship griefers, or solo PvP Hulks. Quite a few people fit battleships or battlecruisers for mining.
The more narrowly specified the ship, the less interesting it is - you can see how the various small t2 ships have been rejected by a lot of people for having role bonuses that are too specific, or how ships that over-excel in one area dominate ships that are nominally better - eg everyone likes the design of the Rokh but you don't see many of them flying around because the Raven's 6x launcher slots plus missile bonuses make it such a DPS machine that most people prefer it.
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Arthur Pewty
Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:41:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Arthur Pewty on 24/10/2008 03:42:39 I have just tested the accessing of the Corp hanger from an Obelisk. Once ganged, you get the standard error about not being able to perform cargo operations in space.
While this is not required for its core role "Mining Operations Management", it would have been nice if a freighter could have accessed the Corp Hanger array.
Hopefully this will be changed - possibly something in the Orca fooling the electronics of the Freighters into thinking that they are near an active POS.
Arthur Pewty
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Forty Niner
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:41:00 -
[207]
Please for the love of the new Empress...let it have 4 HiSlots...so it can have the 3 required mining boosters and a tractor beam. Give us miners some real love.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:47:00 -
[208]
Add one high slot, one mid slot, increase the sma to fit a BS+, make the drone bandwidth 50 and maybe increase the drone bay to 75m3.
That would equal win, but not too overpowered.
PS, skills should say the same. This is an ore ship, not a techII hauler. |
Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:49:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 24/10/2008 03:51:07 Ship is way over powered for it's price and low skill reqs.
Increase price to 800mil.
Require Advance Spaceship Command lvl5.
Require Capital Ships lvl1.
Add 3 gang mod bonus.
Increase ship maint. bay for 4 hulks. |
Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.24 03:50:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Anig Browl on 24/10/2008 03:55:40
Originally by: sergei C
I'm glad you're not calling the shots at CCP. Without the Links and gang bonuses there's not much reason for the Orca.
I am very happy for any miners who get a benefit from using the Orca, but I strongly dispute your argument that it has no reason to exist. It would certainly be useful even without the link modules, and as someone pointed out the optimal use may be to get bonuses from a Rorqual parked at a POS while using the Orca as a secure megahauler.
Freighters seem like quite ridiculous ships to me, they're basically a gigantic can with an engine attached. It appalls me that they have no slots of any kind, and I feel sorry for anyone who has to fly such a boring ship after so much skill training. Real-world There's more to life in Eve than mining, and you already have 7 specialized mining ships, in addition to a very wide range of specialist modules. Industrials and tranports have long been awaiting some love (and are apparently getting it). ships have electronics out the yin-yang and in wartime cargo ships are normally fitted with light armaments (like an industrial in Eve).
Quote: To the players who want a new middle-sized freighter, dedicated salvager ship, mini-dread, capital mining ship, etc, etc, etc. You will have to beg CCP for it then wait a year just like we did.
Um, you already have a capital mining ship for fleet work, and the Hulk ain't exactly chopped liver as a solo ship. The Orca for me will be a sort of fleet support ship, but won't get used much for mining. |
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demonfurbie
Minmatar 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 05:21:00 -
[211]
after talking to some people and looking at it on test it seams to now only be able to fit one link at a time. is that intended cause if so i can sit in an eos and tank the rats kill the rats and give out 3 link bonuses and being able to do all of that with 1 person takes away the need for a belt tanker and role giver so that person can be in a hulk/mack/skiff negating the link bonus that the orca would give out (id be giving out less of a bonus but the gang would be gaining 1 or more miners) and i can fit tractors and a mwd to gather cans if need be.
even with the orcas ability to gather ore for the haulers (who will still be needed to empty it) couldnt the current setup of 1 command ship (tanker/bonus giver/tractor) be better off than the orcas need for a tanker in any belt in less than .5 space.
then there is the added bonus of an eos (sry dont know much about the other races ones it the one i fly) ability to kill the rats for bounty and field shield drones to help the hulks/macks/skiffs if they get aggro.
am i totally off base here or would a command ship be better off than this ship for the role they are trying to fill here. unless the orca has some better stats im not seeing an use for this ship that there isnt already something to fill this role. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 05:21:00 -
[212]
Quote: 1 more high slot, and it can fit 3 gang links and a tractor.
Only the one gang link is worth it to be honest. 2 tractors and that link.
Quote: 1 more low slot, and it could be brought to above 120km3 hold.
You get 100km3 + 30km3 corp hangar. There you go.
Quote: 1 more med slot and it could fit a decent shield tank.
Best named XL shield booster(t2 is just more shields no cap difference) + 2 large shield extenders t2. Gives 15000+ shields and perma running xl shield booster. Which is enough to tank the 0.0 rats in fd-
Considering this is kind of meant for high sec... dont even worry about it. Even if you were to get a nasty spawn in 0.0... huge shield buffer gets you away; or gives you plenty of time to use hobgoblins to kill some of the dps and saves you.
Quote: I'd say 75m3 drone bay and 50mbit bandwith for a flight of Mediums and a flight of mining drones or (lights as replacement).
25m3 for hobs and 25m3 for mining drones t2 is plenty. Again this is meant to be a high sec ship. High sec rats cant hit hard and dont need to be that hard.
Also remember... they are probably going to be nerfing medium drones.
Quote: No offense to miners, but you already have 3 barges, 3 exhumers, and a capital, not to mention a shipload of specialist modules.
firstly the procuror is a piece of ****. Easily outmined by just about everything. Covetor is nice but by the time you actually can use it... you are mere hours from hulk. So really miners have retreiver and the exhumers. The capital isnt really that special.
Quote: The storage is temporary for one reason: it has a ship maintenance array, which means you can pull up next to it with a FREIGHTER and drag the 120,000 m3 of ore into the freighter for hauling.
Can freighters do this? If so... how long until they are removed this allowance?
Quote: The ship maintenance array cannot hold a BS, can this be increased?
This is needed.
Quote: well, think about it dude. If it has a main cargohold of 30,000 that can be expanded to 90,000 as well as with a corp hangar with a cargohold of 30,000, you can push 180,000 m3. Not to mention a ship maint bay with 400,000 m3 you could put haulers in them and fill them up as well (not sure about the maint bay though, I thought I heard something a while back about an ammunition & charges only rule when having items in a stored ship)
There seems to be different rules for different ships.
Carriers and moms can have any ships and do what they will. rorqual only allows indys and barges afaik.
Perhaps given the fact that this ship has no jumpdrive will allow this ship to have rigged up iteron 5s full of giant cans which can be filled with whatever.
I should go test :) If we can do this... oh boy that would make it a minifreighter for sure. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 05:36:00 -
[213]
Just tested and no it wont work. No assembled cans allowed in ship maintenance. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Aussie Vengeance
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 05:49:00 -
[214]
All this talk about mining and industrial uses is making my head hurt .
This thing looks to be a nice mobile platform for 0.0 ninja-ratters. Scout an alt flying an Orca out to deeeep 0.0. In the hangars are buckets of ammo, fittings and a few packaged ratting ships. When you get to the desired location, main(s) switch --> ratting ships, the alt is cloaked (or logged) at a safespot, and mains rat away. Once the ratting ship is full of loot (and/or out of ammo), log the alt in, drop loot off, re-arm guns, repeat as required. Ratting ship gets ganked by nasty PvPers? Go back get another. Pod also went pop? You only gotta get a fast ship out, combat ships already in situ. Once you have 30k-90k of loot (!!!) or no more ammo left, return to empire once again using scouts to get you clear.
Additionally, it will be a nice and cheap alternative to a small POS OR carrier replacement for individuals or small groups running 0.0 ops/strikes in hostile territory.... no fuel to run, it's not there (i.e. cloaked or logged) 99.9% of the time so can't be popped..... Those out pewpewing can have replacement ships and ammo waiting close by, can refit their ship in the ship hangar based on the scenario you face......
Obviously these scenarios require the ship hangar to behave like a POS one does now - but I have not seen any evidence to refute this. Will have to check it out in Sisi and see which way the wind blows
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:09:00 -
[215]
The base capacitor stats look very nice, it does looks like you will be able to park it in a belt, let the npcs aggro you, and let the miners come in, without needing another player to tank on top of the rest. ------------------------------------------
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Hi Lo
Faulty Solutions
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:29:00 -
[216]
the 50m3 seems alittle small for a mining support ship. Although we don't want to make it a solo mining ship now do we. :S |
Lobster Man
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:29:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Lobster Man on 24/10/2008 06:29:38 Can it generate cynos and/or jump? |
Haclya
Caldari The Red Ring
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:32:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Haclya on 24/10/2008 06:33:03 wow only need more slots 1 Med 1 high but really a good ship.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 07:08:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Aussie Vengeance
Obviously these scenarios require the ship hangar to behave like a POS one does now - but I have not seen any evidence to refute this. Will have to check it out in Sisi and see which way the wind blows
Ya and you can even give fleet members access to the corp hangar. So dont even matter what rights they have for corp.
Yes the cloak factor will be special. Having a megathron or raven or whatever... who has free high slots to fit a cloak for 0.0 actions will be best. |
Clarence X
Enlightened Research and Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 07:11:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Pater Deus
Wouldn`t it be great to have a 125M3 dedicated mining drone bay? Heavy mining drones would be superb to have. I pray to the Gods of CCP to eventually redeem themselves and surprise us EVE mortals with real T2 mining drones in a near future, not the whimpy T2 ones we now have to use.
A Mining Command Ship (Orca) pilot will still lack this skills:
- Drone Foreman - Drone Director - Advanced Mining Drone Interfacing - Heavy Mining Drones
and a ship with a Dedicated Heavy Mining Drone bay
and only then Drone Mining Augmentor Rigs will give real benefit$ and payback for our inve$tment.
Last but not least, 70kms range of tractor beams and 125kms survey scanner range? Am I missing something or are we to see double sized belts in high sec?
I really like the idea of a ship using new, enhanced mining drones and skills to great advantage. It could be a role for the orca, but may be another ship to develop as well -- a huge drone tender for mining fleets. It could assign it's drones to the hulks and the drones would harvest to the hulk with their attributes depending on the hulk pilots skills. The hulk is just not designed to carry and deploy these new-fangled drones from the brilliant minds of Creodron and ORE Engineers. |
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 07:12:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Lobster Man Edited by: Lobster Man on 24/10/2008 06:29:38 Can it generate cynos and/or jump?
You can fit a cyno generator on basically everything... there's no jumpdrive. |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.24 07:39:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 23/10/2008 20:27:27
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Also, for an ORE ship, the skills are right where they should be, the rorqual requires barges V as well
The rorqual requiring Mining Barge V is also a mistake. if you have mining skills you should be mining, haulers should require a different skillset regardless of what faction they belong to.
The only significant change I can endorse is renaming the skill to "ORE Vessels" or something similar, as ORE has expanded significantly over the years and has become somewhat more varied than just mining barges
Or make it generic "Industrial V".
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.10.24 07:40:00 -
[223]
Nice addition. I personally think the skills should be a smidge more intensive. ----------
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ight8
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Posted - 2008.10.24 07:41:00 -
[224]
I really like the idea of the new ship, it's been a long time coming and it's due. The Rorqual is valuable because it can jump fearful miners into low sec and give them a some rat protection while making some nice isk. Instead you've given the Orca a pathetic tank, (3 mid slots?) an even more pathetic drone bay, (50 m/3) and a useless corp hanger. This pathetic concept is a kick to the groin of any miner. This ship does not carry on the concept of getting out of high sec and finding good ore. You should in fact be giving the orca a battleship tank, kill the hanger for a better drone bay, and give it some strip miners! at least then miners will be more apt to go into low-sec / 0.0 and chance something for a change. I sincerely hope you reconsider and help to bridge the gap between high sec miners and low sec miners. Other then that, thanks but no thanks, I already have an obelisk. Try this, 6 high slots, 6 mid slots, a battleship tank, a Dominix drone capacity, and bonuses to shield transport and drone damage. yeah it's a super hulk, but no hulk could ever stand up to a battleship for very long and still mine enough ore to make the hazard < reward. Otherwise tritanium prices in high sec are gonna drop to a point where you may as well give away the ships free. just like ice prices when you made concord respond faster.
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Clarence X
Enlightened Research and Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.24 07:56:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Vincent Jarjadian I dont have an alteration suggestion... but just a question.
The Hulk has 4 midslots, why does this have only 3?
Hulk has T2 resists as well. The Orca needs to tank at least as well as a Hulk.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:11:00 -
[226]
That seems pretty solid ship. 90k m3 max cargobay is a bit lower than expected, but on the other hand it makes it up with 'battleship like' agility. Also ship maintenance array is nice addition - not big enough for battleships ofc, but one can drag several fitted HAC's around with it so it's definately step forward. |
Gedhay
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:12:00 -
[227]
i wold sugest 4 slots on high and the posibility to activate 3 gang moduls at once but it's just my opinion... |
MidNite247
Caldari Tacos Revolution Morsus Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:22:00 -
[228]
i love the thing and its not out yet :) |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:23:00 -
[229]
Oh, and just noticed, it doesn't need Capital Corporate Hangar Bay components to build, but has one. Intended? |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:36:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Clarence X
Originally by: Vincent Jarjadian I dont have an alteration suggestion... but just a question.
The Hulk has 4 midslots, why does this have only 3?
Hulk has T2 resists as well. The Orca needs to tank at least as well as a Hulk.
Look at the capacitor stats. The Orca already outtank the Hulk because it can afford to run large or even XL shield boosters. ------------------------------------------
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:38:00 -
[231]
8 week base ME research time? Don't most other things have a longer PE than ME research ?
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
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Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:49:00 -
[232]
My biggest worries about this ship is the small hold, ~90k is filled in a few minutes with a resonable skilled group of miners. This also means you have no low slots left so it will need to trust it's shields for protection which on an ORE tech 1 ship are about as useful as bringing the Pax Amarria to a minmatar slave rally. If you ad to that the ships obvious size and slugish movement you have a huge big fat sitting duck, certainly because it's price and required skills does not make it a likely participant on 1.0 mining ops. It will mostly be operated in 0.5 to 0.1 where pirates and even normal rats will have to be totaly drunk and blind to be able to miss it. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Dark water
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:53:00 -
[233]
Nice ship but....
Drone bay to small and not enough bandwidth to put out 5 med drones??? the hulk can put out that much so why a bigger ship without the ability to do at least the same?
will it be able to compress ore as does it's bigger brother the rorqual?
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:01:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Ralitge boyter My biggest worries about this ship is the small hold, ~90k is filled in a few minutes with a resonable skilled group of miners. This also means you have no low slots left so it will need to trust it's shields for protection which on an ORE tech 1 ship are about as useful as bringing the Pax Amarria to a minmatar slave rally. If you ad to that the ships obvious size and slugish movement you have a huge big fat sitting duck, certainly because it's price and required skills does not make it a likely participant on 1.0 mining ops. It will mostly be operated in 0.5 to 0.1 where pirates and even normal rats will have to be totaly drunk and blind to be able to miss it.
0.5 to 0.1 mining? Trust me, this won't be used for mining there, as there is seriously no real reason to mine in low-sec. This ship will pretty much be useful anywhere large scale mining takes place, be that in safe empire, or safe 0.0.. but there is NO reason to take it to low-sec. |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:07:00 -
[235]
Anyone know when CCP start work, cause I'm looking forward to dev responses to see if this already great ship can get better. |
Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:09:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Miyamoto Uroki on 24/10/2008 09:11:51 Orca got very cool looks, here are my requests:
- give it enough drone bay, lets say 75m¦ with 75 bandwith, so it can deploy 3 sentry drones and take care of any high sec rats that are around prior to rats reaching noob miners with fragile ships in your mining op
- ore compression. The orca doesn't replace haulers really, which is semi-optimal. I won't say it have to replace all haulers needed, but at least give us the possibility so it can compress the ore to one or two haulers sufficient. Skilled miners with orca bonus will fill the orcas cargohold in no time, so thats not even considered a buffer.
- in terms of tanking it doesn't need much as this ship is designed for high sec. If you want a mining command ship in 0.0, get yourself a rorqual... About half the tanking abilities of a hulk would be sufficient to tank high sec npc spawns forever
- skill requirements. This ship is not really a pure mining addition. It's mainly a transport ship with the added bonus of mining gang assist modules. With mining barge 5 as prerequisite you are removing a miner from the mining op as that pilot would be better off in a hulk. Make it transport ships 5 instead or something like that. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:32:00 -
[237]
WHOOOOO! yay! hauling of rigged ships -sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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Clarence X
Enlightened Research and Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:44:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Clarence X on 24/10/2008 09:45:57 Let's debunk the orca as a tool designed for high-sec only. If the Rorqual didn't miss on a couple of its' designed null sec roles, then I might be willing to relegate the Orca to a purely hi-sec existence. As it is, it needs to fill the roles that the Rorqual misses for us miners in dangerous areas. There are also lots of high sec voices in this thread that don't appreciate the rigors of null sec mining or moving vulnerable ships in lawless space.
Mining, to me, is all about efficiency. Hulks and hulk pilots must stay in belts. Lasers must stay on and targets must move on to new roids. Commanders and their gang links need to stay in belts and tank the rats while their bonuses stay active. All this so that actual yield per hour approaches max theoretical yield per hour. The inefficient role is hauling. Nobody makes an account to just be a hauler for a 0.0 mining crew. When a noob chooses to be a hauler, he does not aspire to be a hauler for his entire career. I want a ship that combines command and hauling in the right manner.
My personal mining crew is a max director and 2 near-max hulk pilots. All 3 can haul, but this drastically cuts their productivity per hour. When I heard about the Orca, I wanted it to be a relatively affordable mining command ship for my director so he can retire his vulture and so the gang could haul their ore more efficiently. If it had tank, super tractor beams, sufficient ore capacity and could fit in a rorqual to stage remote mining ops, I would be happy.
I think the orca as outlined in the dev blog falls short of this role. The capacity of the holds means we only compress 3 hauler trips into 1. I can't afford a command ship that is warping back and forth every 20-30 minutes, dropping its bonuses and leaving the hulks and drones to endure the change in rat agro. I expected that this ship would end up with about the capacity of a jump freighter, minus the jump of course. If it came in around 250k m3 max for an ore-specific hangar, I could clear most belts of the ore I mine and then warp out, unload and restage the crew in a new belt which means no real lost productivity.
Another issue I have with it as-revealed is that it won't fit in a rorqual or carrier for remote deployment. It will be supporting the mining crew -- it has to go with them in the same manner that the hulks go -- in the belly of the jump beast.
It also seems a bit pricey for its cargo size and for its risk vs reward ratio. The rorqual misses because its just too expensive to risk in belts, which also neuters its' tractor beam systems. I am not sure how many people will risk even a 400 mil ship in low and null sec belts.
I was concerned about the lack of mid slots for the tank, but if the cap is sufficiently vigorous, as has been pointed out, then 3 slots should be ok.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:48:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Aussie Vengeance All this talk about mining and industrial uses is making my head hurt .
This thing looks to be a nice mobile platform for 0.0 ninja-ratters. Scout an alt flying an Orca out to deeeep 0.0. In the hangars are buckets of ammo, fittings and a few packaged ratting ships. When you get to the desired location, main(s) switch --> ratting ships, the alt is cloaked (or logged) at a safespot, and mains rat away. Once the ratting ship is full of loot (and/or out of ammo), log the alt in, drop loot off, re-arm guns, repeat as required. Ratting ship gets ganked by nasty PvPers? Go back get another. Pod also went pop? You only gotta get a fast ship out, combat ships already in situ. Once you have 30k-90k of loot (!!!) or no more ammo left, return to empire once again using scouts to get you clear.
Additionally, it will be a nice and cheap alternative to a small POS OR carrier replacement for individuals or small groups running 0.0 ops/strikes in hostile territory.... no fuel to run, it's not there (i.e. cloaked or logged) 99.9% of the time so can't be popped..... Those out pewpewing can have replacement ships and ammo waiting close by, can refit their ship in the ship hangar based on the scenario you face......
Obviously these scenarios require the ship hangar to behave like a POS one does now - but I have not seen any evidence to refute this. Will have to check it out in Sisi and see which way the wind blows
That sounds like a *really* awesome idea tbh.
My only concern is really the lack of a jump drive. Good luck getting an Orca trough 0.0 unharmed.
However, it does have a considerable better cargo hold(Both in terms of actual ship maint. and actual cargohold), but that's a tradeoff obviously.
For my personal ninja-ratting I would still prefer paying double price and get a carrier. However, it's *still* lots more skill consuming than an Orca. |
Kina Putten
Amarr Coalition of Nations
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 10:13:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Kina Putten on 24/10/2008 10:13:44
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!!
THIS MAN, GIVE HIM A MEDAL
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.24 10:42:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Kina Putten Edited by: Kina Putten on 24/10/2008 10:13:44
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!!
THIS MAN, GIVE HIM A MEDAL
I GIVE HIM THE NOOB MEDAL!
(because you can't fit miner II on a ship that doesn't have turret slots) ------------------------------------------
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Kina Putten
Amarr Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.10.24 11:06:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kina Putten Edited by: Kina Putten on 24/10/2008 10:13:44
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller One thing, CCP, please I beg of you.... this ship is pretty snazzy, but you're missing something!
CANNOT BE TRAINED/FLOWN IN NUUB CORPS!
CANNOT BE FLOWN IN NPC CORPS!
Period, gods get these things out of the NPC corps or you'll have one parked at every belt in highsec with 3 miner II's fitted!!!
THIS MAN, GIVE HIM A MEDAL
I GIVE HIM THE NOOB MEDAL!
(because you can't fit miner II on a ship that doesn't have turret slots)
Yes I know that, but that's not the point. And this thread is boiling with noob posts and meanings about this new ship.
So noob medals to all talking about slot layout, tanking, bs transport and skill reqs (way to low). You guys roxors my boxors.
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.24 11:31:00 -
[243]
Seems to me to be primarily a high sec hauler.
Not enough CPU to run enough gang links Not enough high slots to fit ganglinks+tractor beams
Needs to many miners to be worthwhile to use.
But ohwell I'm not an industrialist so what do I know? |
Gilgamoth
Eldritch Storm The Matari Consortium
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Posted - 2008.10.24 11:32:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Gilgamoth on 24/10/2008 11:32:41 Having read through all 9 pages it seems that my initial concerns are echoed by a few others...
1) More High Slots. If this is meant to be a mining command ship it should be able to take the 3 mining foreman links in addition to tractor beams and (possibly) a salvager. so long as it's 0/0 on turrets and launchers, I really can't see why there's not 6 high slots.
2) Rebalance the Space Whilst the cargohold expands with EC Mods and Rigs, it's actually the Corp Hanger that needs the extra space to allow haulers to collect from it. Unless you intend the Orca to be the hauler in which case why give it command bonuses?
3) Gang Link Bonus There's been no mention of if the Orca can run 1 or 3 command links. If it's one then you'll loose two of your precious 3 mid slots to Command Processor modules. Oh and there's no mention of reduction of CPU for Gang modules.
Regards,
Gil
edit for typo |
Richard Albright
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Posted - 2008.10.24 11:43:00 -
[245]
Edited by: Richard Albright on 24/10/2008 11:45:29 Edited by: Richard Albright on 24/10/2008 11:44:47
Originally by: Gilgamoth Edited by: Gilgamoth on 24/10/2008 11:32:41 Having read through all 9 pages it seems that my initial concerns are echoed by a few others...
1) More High Slots. If this is meant to be a mining command ship it should be able to take the 3 mining foreman links in addition to tractor beams and (possibly) a salvager. so long as it's 0/0 on turrets and launchers, I really can't see why there's not 6 high slots.
2) Rebalance the Space Whilst the cargohold expands with EC Mods and Rigs, it's actually the Corp Hanger that needs the extra space to allow haulers to collect from it. Unless you intend the Orca to be the hauler in which case why give it command bonuses?
3) Gang Link Bonus There's been no mention of if the Orca can run 1 or 3 command links. If it's one then you'll loose two of your precious 3 mid slots to Command Processor modules. Oh and there's no mention of reduction of CPU for Gang modules.
Regards,
Gil
edit for typo
The screen shots from the SiSi servers seem to suggest that the Orca does have the 99% reduction for the modules Gil (link is from page 6 - here's the full view)
More high slots would be nice, even if it's to fill them with 5 tractor beams, as from the looks of the gang modules for mining there's really only one good one that I can see - duration, the other two I don't see the need for with this ship, and the cap use one is just a silly module for most miners as far as I am aware (playing eve since day 7 with various characters most of the time mining) as I've never ran out of cap mining in anything other than a rookie ship.
I hope that the rigs and ec mods work on the corp hanger as well, otherwise it will be a fun time for the orca pilot micro managing the ore moving from cargo hold to corp hanger..
Edit: I liked the idea that was given for a module to link the mining barges up with the orca so that the ore was steamed directly to the orca's cargo bay as if the orca had it's own mining lasers feeding from the barges. |
Caverat II
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:00:00 -
[246]
Finally! but I am wondering that bill of materials on Orca BPO doesnt contains capital drone bay and capital corporate hangar when Orca have them Should be added |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:09:00 -
[247]
general replies to some questions and clarifications
Clarifications
1. The Orca uses stargates and does not have a jump drive.
I realise this can get confusing with the various tiers of capital ships out there and the mixed referencing of it as a sub-capital or command ship. Its a Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship (SCICS), I have spoken!
2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default
I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.
3. what's this about the x-large ship assembly array?
All current large ship assembly arrays which are only anchorable in low sec are being renamed to x-large assembly array.
A new large ship assembly array is being added with Quantum Rise which can be anchored in high sec and allows manufacture of battleships, freighters and the orca.
Fixes
1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.
This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.
2. The sensor strength is silly
it has been reduced to more sane values. (Not that being jammed is a huge drawback.)
3. The capacitor recharge was a little too high
This has been reduced a little to more normal levels so we do not have a really high recharge rate.
4. Why does it not require capital corporate hangar bay component to build?
it should and we are looking at adding 4 of those to the material requirements.
Things we are looking at changing
1. Increasing the drone bay capacity to 75m3 and bandwidth to 50 mbit/sec
This is not a bad suggestion and we are looking into it.
2. Increasing capacity of the corporate hangar bay to 40,000m3
This is a reasonable increase in capacity without making the ship overly powerful.
3. Adding a 4th med slot
This is being looked into to add some flexibility and shield tanking potential.
General Opinions and Responses
1. It is a 'jack of all trades' and master of none
This is more a symptom of its primary bonus being cargo capacity rather than having a special ore hold which we would like to add in the future (along with special holds for other ships such as fuel bays for dreads and so on).
The addition of the ship maintenance bay which is not big enough to carry battleships (on purpose) but carry 2 hulks makes it role also swap a lot between general hauler and mining specialist and it suffers the same as the rorqual to an extent.
I believe in the future we will have much more focus for the ships with the addition of special hold for example then the intended role is much more defined than its less intended roles.
2. Why does it not mine?
This is deliberate, now is not the time to be adding giant asteroid eaters and we firmly believe that mining whilst not the most interactive or exciting mechanic (we have plans to address that) is a social mechanic and introducing ships which can swallow whole belts would be more harm than good. However we are not ruling out specialist ships in the future where a good niche is found for them.
3. Why does it not compress ore like the rorqual?
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:11:00 -
[248]
^ Thanks, cleared up some issues and the (possible) changes look like it's on the track to becoming a very good ship. |
Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:19:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Una D on 24/10/2008 12:20:56 Problem here is that it's still just a glorified can. The big thing about mineral compression is that you do not need 1 hauler per 3 hulks. I know that you are trying to do 2 things in one ship but I don't see how it would be overpowered by the compression. Rorqual is still a far better ship (I guess that mineral compression would be linked to deploying the industrial reconfiguration module so you are still stuck in space just like rorqual) that can actually support a real mining op in 0.0.
This would also lower the tedious work of hauling low ends to 0.0 as there will be compressed ore available (perhaps limit the compression only to low end ores (high + low sec ones but not the high end stuff from 0.0).
Whatever this ship does lowering amount of haulers per hulk should be main priority. Compression is the best solution as you can't haul in orca without losing the mining link bonuses.
PS: I have no idea what CCP has been saying about fixing hauling problems (mentioned in the devs last post). Anyone have an idea about it? |
Kerdrak
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:22:00 -
[250]
I think the volume of the ship is too high for the size of the ship model (smaller than an Apoc). The ship should be able to be be transported, at least, packaged in a jump frighter. |
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rednose3
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:22:00 -
[251]
Good clarification and thank you for listening to the players.
My comments: 1. For a mining HQ ship, it should be able to do Squad+ of med drones 2. I would NOT make the shield/armor too strong, as it will lead to a "mixed mission syndrome" (more below) 3. Nothing I saw in the description mandated the skill of cap tractor beams. I would clarify that (even thou it is obvious from the module) 4. I agree with Transport Ships requirement to IV. 5. I agree with reducing the Barge to IV. 6. I would ask for a large undocking delay for ships coming out of the ship hanger (more below). Please dont spam me...
mixed mission syndrome: This ship will be a must for all unless its purpose is clarified vis-a-vis some modification. In its current config, it will be The ship to have because: 1) It is a mobile HQ 2) Nothing was said about the gang mods being mining mods. As I read it, it will make the PERFECT "in system and away from battle" command ship. It will in fact cause a nerf for Command Ships, for Battleships, for Haulers and for miners. Add to this the fact that it is NOT race dependent, and all will train it. 3) Corps/alliances can just put an entire fleet into 3 or 4 of these, warp them and start a battle. 4) Because of #3 above, it will also, in effect, nerf POS corp hangers.
My 20 cents.
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Skogen Gump
Jericho Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:40:00 -
[252]
Just out of interest, how long is this ship ?
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:00:00 -
[253]
Very ncie Chronotis. Now release the puppet!
--------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
splintercellxxx
Gallente Mindstar Technology
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:22:00 -
[254]
this all looks good working on mining director 5 till this toy come's into play but the way I see it it could really use a bit more tank.
i mean its cool to have a + 600 mill costing ship all fitted/rigged up but putting t2 rigs on it without having a decent tank i don't think much people will do that.
other then that props for ccp to give us new toys to play with ! |
Gilgamoth
Eldritch Storm The Matari Consortium
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:28:00 -
[255]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis general replies to some questions and clarifications
Thanks for the clarifications Chronotis. Are we going to get a boost to the tractor beam speed if it's going to take over a minute to bring a can from max distance?
Regards,
Gil
Live on Eden Underground Radio every Wednesday 19:00 - 21:00 GMT. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:35:00 -
[256]
Originally by: rednose3 3. Nothing I saw in the description mandated the skill of cap tractor beams. I would clarify that (even thou it is obvious from the module)
It can't use capital tractor beams, it gets a bonus to small tractor beams instead.
Quote: 4. I agree with Transport Ships requirement to IV.
Transport Ships is a T2 skill this is a T1 ship. No T1 ship requires a T2 skill.
Quote: 6. I would ask for a large undocking delay for ships coming out of the ship hanger (more below). Please dont spam me...
They don't undock, why on earth a delay?
Quote: 1) It is a mobile HQ
Ah, not nearly as mobile as a rorqual or carrier. Alot more fragile than both also.
Quote: 2) Nothing was said about the gang mods being mining mods. As I read it, it will make the PERFECT "in system and away from battle" command ship. It will in fact cause a nerf for Command Ships, for Battleships, for Haulers and for miners. Add to this the fact that it is NOT race dependent, and all will train it.
Normal command ships are cheaper, more agile, and get bonuses to combat gang links. As well they can run 3 gang links without coprocessors.
Quote: 3) Corps/alliances can just put an entire fleet into 3 or 4 of these, warp them and start a battle.
It can't fit a single battleship in it.
Quote: 4) Because of #3 above, it will also, in effect, nerf POS corp hangers.
1.4 million M3 for a corp POS hangar, 30,000 m3 for this ships corp hangar. Explain how these are in anyway similar ?
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
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Nekopyat
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:36:00 -
[257]
Having seen the test server version now, I have an additional though:
I am actually kinda disappointed in the build requirements. By only using components who's BPOs cost a billion each (rather then a mix of high and low cost BPOs), construction of this ship has been put of the reach of smaller corps and, more importantly, makes it difficult to have mixed teams working on the ship, thus cutting out younger builders from the process.
It would have been nice to see a mix of requirements so older (and richer) builders could build the big expensive parts but younger ones can still contribute. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:41:00 -
[258]
Capital Cargo Bay is one of the lowish cost capital BPOs (750m) and it requires the most of those. Not sure what else you could do, since it is / was always going to require capital BPs. |
Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:43:00 -
[259]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis 2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.
Umm... then why does the activation cost link exist and is not something more useful?
Please add to the description can run 2 gang links simultaneously in similar language to the Fleet Commandships. |
Fergus Runkle
Minmatar Truth and Reconciliation Council
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:44:00 -
[260]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis general replies to some questions and clarifications
Clarifications
2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default
I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.
Then the one I have on SISI must be a pre-production one as I can only activate 1 ganglink at a time. When I try to online a second I am told there is already something using the resources required. (yes I am using two different links)
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Ottman
Amarr LoneWolf Mining Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:48:00 -
[261]
as i already thought, you just support the needs of the big guys, but not all want to be a pet of the big alliances, and those pilots who do industrial work maybe with max one alt? with that ship you kick those players in the ass, because in empire the big alliances will wipe out whole system belts. those who do their mining solo have no lobby and dont get anything worth it grabbing it. with the orca the single miners who play eve for years get another kick in the ass, and the demand of a similar ship of capable doing mining with strip miners will be ignored. and no ccp not all will follow your point of view and go into big alliances, they rather just quit eve, how many money must you loose before you realize it you cant force players into your mental picture that you have of eve ? there will be enough players who have no interest to join alliances that will be falling apart soon when those craving for quick power dont get what they hoped or worse, they are screwed and yell for mom .
a ship similar to orca for highsec, but capable of using strip miners is needed, and no its not whining, if ccp brings up the orca, then you ccp strengthen the bigger corps and alliances, but those who have no lobby inside eve get nothing, and i dont see any rebalancing about that, so dont wonder if patches are called nerf fests and are rather feared than wanted. those with big lobby are happy about orca because they get their needs feeded and call others who requests their needs whiner, starting a flaming war against them that the request about the needs of smaller corps and alliances is getting lost in all the flaming that is done in forums, and i dont post often in it, and when i post, then i dont read, quote or answer to the postings of others much, i just do statements, thats it, the only way not to get caught in the flaming trap set up by big corps and alliances to prevent that smaller corps and alliances to get noticed by ccp.
and no, i dont quit eve, but i can understand those who are ****ed and leave, not all have patience like me with ccp, and just grab my right to say what i think, not caring about flaming that will follow, i have said what i think why flaming is done, and i expect flaming after this post putting finger into the wound of the truth hehe.
MfG ottman
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:54:00 -
[262]
DON'T CHANGE THE SKILL REQS ... I like them as low as they are ... makes the ship usable also without the gang links ... |
Xanos Blackpaw
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:54:00 -
[263]
question: can freighters pick up stuff from the corp hangar array on the orca?
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Gilgamoth
Eldritch Storm The Matari Consortium
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:57:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Nekopyat Having seen the test server version now, I have an additional though:
I am actually kinda disappointed in the build requirements. By only using components who's BPOs cost a billion each (rather then a mix of high and low cost BPOs), construction of this ship has been put of the reach of smaller corps and, more importantly, makes it difficult to have mixed teams working on the ship, thus cutting out younger builders from the process.
I must admit I've just done the sums and I'm horrified! If the numbers on Sisi were to be believed, it looks like it's gonna cost around 450m to make, but cost you 9bil ISK for all the BPO's to make one. All the BPO's to build a freighter are only about 7b ISK. This make Gil cry
Regards,
Gil
Live on Eden Underground Radio every Wednesday 19:00 - 21:00 GMT. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:01:00 -
[265]
wow if those changed did happen... kind of ruined the ship.
No perm run xl shield booster means the tank is <150 dps tank? Or even less...
Kind of stated that the ship wont have the option to pop a bs in ship maintenance... which destroys the whole point of having a ship maintenance of moving around ships which are rigged. Honestly who needs to move 2 hulks? I certainly dont... I do need to move a hulk and iteron 5. But cant do that. I need to move my rigged dominix or cnr. Cant do that.
There's no point... I have to make extra trips which defeats the purpose... I could just fly the ship themselves.
Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:03:00 -
[266]
Thanks for the uptade Chronitis, it's appreciated. :)
Originally by: CCP Chronotis general replies to some questions and clarifications
Clarifications
1. The Orca uses stargates and does not have a jump drive.
I realise this can get confusing with the various tiers of capital ships out there and the mixed referencing of it as a sub-capital or command ship. Its a Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship (SCICS), I have spoken!
Do you plan to add eventually Sub Capital combat ships, to bridge the gap between battleships and capital ships?
Quote:
2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default
I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.
Nice to know.
Quote:
Fixes
1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.
This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.
2. The sensor strength is silly
it has been reduced to more sane values. (Not that being jammed is a huge drawback.)
3. The capacitor recharge was a little too high
This has been reduced a little to more normal levels so we do not have a really high recharge rate.
4. Why does it not require capital corporate hangar bay component to build?
it should and we are looking at adding 4 of those to the material requirements.
2. Increasing capacity of the corporate hangar bay to 40,000m3
This is a reasonable increase in capacity without making the ship overly powerful.
3. Adding a 4th med slot
This is being looked into to add some flexibility and shield tanking potential.
I'm dubious about removing some of it's cap recharge, as this ship seem intended to tank spawns as well giving bonuses and doing stuff. I guess that as long as doing it doesn't require overly optimised setups, like gistii-small shield boosters hulks, and leave slots alaivables for other things than the tank and cap recharge, it will be fine.
Thumbs up for the other potential changes.
Quote:
The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
Could we have some update about those plans? You decided how you want to handle it? ------------------------------------------
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Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:04:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw question: can freighters pick up stuff from the corp hangar array on the orca?
As far as I can tell it's a big no to that. That is why it needs mineral compression. Of course it's preliminary data from Sisi but I haven't seen CCP say anything about it that would contradict the sisi findings.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=904895&page=3#65
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:05:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Gilgamoth
I must admit I've just done the sums and I'm horrified! If the numbers on Sisi were to be believed, it looks like it's gonna cost around 450m to make, but cost you 9bil ISK for all the BPO's to make one. All the BPO's to build a freighter are only about 7b ISK. This make Gil cry
Regards,
Gil
Which is why the ships will be priced closer to 600m for a long time. Not to mention it will be a long time the demand will be pretty damn high and have it priced over a billion I suspect. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Falcon101
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:09:00 -
[269]
Please do not add mining director to the required skills. If this ship is supposed to be a "Jack of all trades and master of none" why would you require such a skill? Only one of the "trades" for this ship will be using mining director skill.
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:16:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Jason Edwards wow if those changed did happen... kind of ruined the ship.
No perm run xl shield booster means the tank is <150 dps tank? Or even less...
Kind of stated that the ship wont have the option to pop a bs in ship maintenance... which destroys the whole point of having a ship maintenance of moving around ships which are rigged. Honestly who needs to move 2 hulks? I certainly dont... I do need to move a hulk and iteron 5. But cant do that. I need to move my rigged dominix or cnr. Cant do that.
There's no point... I have to make extra trips which defeats the purpose... I could just fly the ship themselves.
Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals.
This ship is meant to be a mining support ship for small/medium corps in hi-sec. NOT a solo ship for ratting/solo mining. As Chronotis said in the above post "introducing ships which can swallow whole belts would be more harm than good," so stop asking for one.
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hotdickingsforall
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:28:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Lufio II I am not sure about this, but I read from the dev blog that this ship is basically giving the same type of bonus as the Rorqual, just a bit less, without the need of deploying it with an industrial core? Doesn't make this the Rorqual in its current state a bit useless in the first place in comparison (if you don't need the ore compression feature in the first place due to having a station in the same system and such?
You are missing the simple fact that it can go into high sec...............
Yeah not to mention I t does not make the rorq useless in the least way. Obviously you have never worked with 0.0 major industry, it is the combination of the rorqs ores compression and good jump distance that make it far better in low sec the orca, which would basically be a great bigf target. And I imagine even in empire they will make great targets just like freighters for war dec'ers :) |
Gerardd
Caldari Khanid Division
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:29:00 -
[272]
What an absolutely beautiful ship!!! I want one. Badly. One question though. It seems not possible to fit a capital tractor beam given the powergrid availability Is that on purpose or an oversight? |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:32:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Gerardd One question though. It seems not possible to fit a capital tractor beam given the powergrid availability Is that on purpose or an oversight?
Current intention is that it uses the Small Tractor Beam I. The role bonuses result in a 70km range, and a tractor speed of 1km/s.
The hull has a base targeting range of 60km though. You'll need to train Long Range Targeting IV to get the full 70km, or fit a sensor booster. |
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.10.24 14:35:00 -
[274]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
...
Very. very strange changes. You said that this one should be a minifreighter by second "specialization" but it is not exactly that we see and those changes put it even futher from minifreighter path. Is it possible then to give us real minifreighter than for non-miner characters? |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 15:00:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 24/10/2008 14:59:42
Originally by: Gerardd What an absolutely beautiful ship!!! I want one. Badly. One question though. It seems not possible to fit a capital tractor beam given the powergrid availability Is that on purpose or an oversight?
It seems intentional given the bonuses apply to regular tractor beams, and this way they don't have to give it capital ship grid (which would mean it could fit things like cap shield boosters etc) |
Nekopyat
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 15:10:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Gilgamoth
I must admit I've just done the sums and I'm horrified! If the numbers on Sisi were to be believed, it looks like it's gonna cost around 450m to make, but cost you 9bil ISK for all the BPO's to make one. All the BPO's to build a freighter are only about 7b ISK. This make Gil cry
Regards,
Gil
Personally, I"m less concerned about the total and more about the distrubution. I would have liked to see a few high cost and low cost BPO requirements so that young builders could contribute too. This ship is just itching for small alliances to work on (who don't have a need for dreads/moms/etc) but it doesn't distrubte very well.
Actually, what would be cool, is if it had a large number of types of components needed, say, 10-20. Right now, with enough ISK, a single toon could do ALL the research and manufacturing for this ship. Plenty of work for miners of course, but only enough room for a single researcher or builder on a project like this.
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Falun Assad
Caldari Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 15:21:00 -
[277]
Actually i would like to see its cargobay reduces to something around 5000m¦ and its corp hangar array increased to 125000 m¦, this way npc farmers wont be able to use it.....
actually doing something comparable to all Exhumers and introduction of the long desired fix to the wardec system would screw farmers pretty good.... |
Mikal Drey
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 15:21:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 24/10/2008 15:21:55
Originally by: Darth Felin
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
...
Very. very strange changes. You said that this one should be a minifreighter by second "specialization" but it is not exactly that we see and those changes put it even futher from minifreighter path. Is it possible then to give us real minifreighter than for non-miner characters?
this. giving the orca 90km3 + 30km/40km + 400km(ship storage) makes this an incredible hauler and clearly outclasses both industrials and transports even in some way outclassing a JF due to cost and the ability to transport rigged ships.
with the skill path being mining and command does this effect the balance between the hauling professionals. freighters being highly restrictive and jump freighters being insanley expensive. the mini freighter with the kind of storage this orca has is pretty much perfect for a midpoint hauller but you gave it to the miners :''(
im a command/hauller pilot and the orca seems more geared to me than a miner :/
**edit** forgot to ask again if a freighter or JF could take from the corp hanger whilst in space ?
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.24 15:29:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Fergus Runkle
Originally by: CCP Chronotis general replies to some questions and clarifications
Clarifications
2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default
I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.
Then the one I have on SISI must be a pre-production one as I can only activate 1 ganglink at a time. When I try to online a second I am told there is already something using the resources required. (yes I am using two different links)
True. I'll check again when I get home and can log into sisi.
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Cornchips
Black Serpent Technologies Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.24 15:32:00 -
[280]
I like everything about this ship except that it is too big to go in the Rorq ship bay. You intentionally made it small so that we could not put a BS into it, but not change the size so it could go in a Carrier/Rorq. The model size is WAAAAYYYY to small if everything is to stay as is, the model is smaller than a BS and you can put 2 BS's into a carrier, but not one Orca???? what gives CCP???
Change the unpacked size so ONE will fit into a Carrier/Rorq.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Do we have to start selling tinfoil hats in the EVE Store??
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darklegionca
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.10.24 15:35:00 -
[281]
Um so this will mean the death of all ore belts in empire since its basicly a freighter why not just retrofit the old freighters and will the riods now be the size of the ice chunks meaning they cant be killed or what ------------------------------------ [url=http://profile.mygamercard.net/darklegionca][/url] |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.24 15:44:00 -
[282]
Thanks for the update Chronotis, but you didn't touch on the cargo bay issue.
Are we to assume that the Orca is the response to the overwhelming demand for a true mini-freighter, or is that ship still in the works? |
Arthur Pewty
Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:05:00 -
[283]
"15:08:30 Notify The Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization cannot be activated as it requires access to resources which 1 modules of the same purpose are already using up."
Given its Jake of all Trades nature I would suggest a skill set of Mining Foreman IV, Mining Barge IV and Transport Ships II.
I would like for it to fit into a Rorqual, either repackaged or in the Ship Array. I would also like it to have the ability to hold a Rigged Battleship in its Ship Array, so that it can help with Empire Logistics and be a great target for Gate Campers.
Please give it enough slots to do any one of its roles well (assuming T2 parts) but not be able to perform two at once.
The Build costs are good and the Contract Market can and will provide the BPCs needed for Medium sized corps to build this, just don't expect to see any BPCs of the ship itself.
Arthur
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Tallonn Dex
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:12:00 -
[284]
I have to admit, like many others, I am a bit underwhelmed with the stats for this ship, so far. It's a great attempt, but still feels like it falls short of being anything other than a mediocre ship.
First, it doesn't really bridge the gap between freighter and industrial. Depending on your set-up, it will only haul what 2-3 Itty V's will haul, and the ship bay is limited to BCs or less. I don't see that as being a 'mini freighter', so much as it being a 'sligthly larger' industrial. The comment from the blog is silly - of course you're still going to need haulers. ;) I don't see how this ship would replace the need for them.
The ship bay also seems too small. I read the CCP rep's response and it appears this was done intentionally to prevent rigged BS's from being hauled. If that's the case, then sadly, I don't see the ship bay size being enlarged all that much.
Next, I think a requirement for Barge V is silly. Essentially you have to have a Hulk pilot in this thing, and it seems counter-productive to require that. Does the math for a Mining Link specialist justify the loss of a Hulk pilot to run this ship? Regardless, I think Transport IV would make a lot more sense than Barge V, but that's just my opinion. If it's supposed to be a command ship/hauler hybrid, it would make more sense to require those types of skills - not mining skills.
I am personally ok with the drone bay size. I wouldnt use one of these ships solo, and with other ships around to take care of rats, I wouldn't be too worried about it's offensive capabilities. It would be nice if this thing could tank as easily as a Hulk, at least, so another mid-slot would be appreciated.
After Chronotis's explanation about the mining link operation, I am fine now with the number of high slots.
Really, I think this ship only falls short in capacity (both in its regular cargo hold and the ship bay) and in regards to its skill requirements to fly.
These are just my opinions, though. :)
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Karina Bellac
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:13:00 -
[285]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
3. Why does it not compress ore like the rorqual?
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
Please elaborate. I don't remember reading anything about an incoming veldspar change by CCP. I read lots by players wanting high-yield veldspar and other lowend roids, but nothing from CCP... |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:15:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Arthur Pewty "15:08:30 Notify The Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization cannot be activated as it requires access to resources which 1 modules of the same purpose are already using up."
Given its Jake of all Trades nature I would suggest a skill set of Mining Foreman IV, Mining Barge IV and Transport Ships II.
I think that not having a V skill in there would be a mistake, since that coupled with the circa 500m price tag rightfully makes it a ship which can only be piloted by dedicated corp industrialists.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:26:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Unity Love
Originally by: Arthur Pewty "15:08:30 Notify The Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization cannot be activated as it requires access to resources which 1 modules of the same purpose are already using up."
Given its Jake of all Trades nature I would suggest a skill set of Mining Foreman IV, Mining Barge IV and Transport Ships II.
I think that not having a V skill in there would be a mistake, since that coupled with the circa 500m price tag rightfully makes it a ship which can only be piloted by dedicated corp industrialists.
it is a bug and will successfully run 3 ganglinks in a future update (I ninja edited my original response to correct this from 2) |
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Dralor
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:29:00 -
[288]
well personaly i was realy looking forward to this ship. Im in a smaller sized corp and was realy looking forward to something that would free up my pilots from having to haul all the time. The combined cargo bays cant hold 1 belt worth of ore. Also unless your gonna run a 5 man crew or higher i cant see this ship being effective. If its stats were left as is but 2 ore compression lines were added it would def be a must have. But as it sits i think it would be better just to keep 1 pilot running in an indy 5 instead of losing 2 pilots and getting a little better ore income.
I do love the ship model but and a bit disspointed. The slots and stats are fine otherwise |
Mirah Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:32:00 -
[289]
This is probably a stupid question but, does the Cargo Capacity bonus affect only the cargo hold or will it affect the other bays as well (asking because it was specifically said that the cargo space will be divided amoung the 3 bays)
Mirah Dawn |
Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.10.24 16:44:00 -
[290]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The addition of the ship maintenance bay which is not big enough to carry battleships (on purpose) but carry 2 hulks makes it role also swap a lot between general hauler and mining specialist and it suffers the same as the rorqual to an extent.
This makes sense in terms of the Orca, but it brings up the question of when (if ever) are we going to have a ship that DOES fill that role?
Nomads (yes, I know they are not exactly a common group, but maybe we need a bit more of a voice) of various types have been needing something to fill the role for a while now.
An example would be a non-hub based mission runner,.. if on does not use a 'pure kill mission' agent then one needs to carry a main missions ship (BS), salvager (DD), light courier (FF), heavy courier (indy), and maybe even a barge. The situation gets even worse if you use multiple BSes or, worst case scenario, work your was up from L1->L4 in which case you need even more ships. Moving them one by one can bea frustrating time sink.
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Tessen
Stellar Tide
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:02:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Tessen on 24/10/2008 17:03:09 Hi. Change and fixes are very good except this one :
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Fixes
1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.
This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.
Rorqual have same leadership ability and dont need Leadership skills. This is the same for Command ships, Carriers, Motherships and Titans : they can use warfare links but it is not required for piloting the ship.
This feature allow pilots who dont have Leadership skill to pilot them aswell. Orca will be the only one ship who requier Advanced Command skill to fly it.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think Industrial Command ships Skill should not have Mining Foreman or mining Director requirement. Moreover, If someone want to fly it without Leadership module he'll have no choice and will have to learn this skill.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:09:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Tessen
This is the same for Command ships, Carriers, Motherships and Titans : they can use warfare links but it is not required for piloting the ship.
Pretty sure last time I checked command ships needed Warfare Link Specialist 4.
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Marconius
Caldari Astroglide X
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:10:00 -
[293]
I hope they increase the ship maint bay to 600km3. This would allow the movement of a rigged battleship or have 3 hulks in it.
If only there was a way to courier contract a rigged battleship and the person accepting it to be able to put it in the ship maint bay. Then there might be some business to be had by player courier mission runners.
If they did increase it to 600km3 ship maint bay they should increase the size of the Orca for sure.
I'm still not sure about it, but it is reguardless a much appreciated addition to the mining community.
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Xsyla
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:22:00 -
[294]
Note to everybody: You cant blame ccp if they would say "ok, lets forget the orca" , it will never hit TQ. Sorry, but most statement are such in away "personal wish", if implemented would turn eve upside down. Please dont hesitate to count it as a whine.
To Topic: Nice work ccp, please go ahead. If only the barge would have such a beautiful skin like this baby |
shady trader
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:25:00 -
[295]
I am have missed the comment about this but I think there is a flaw in the design (a side from the diffrent ships people want).
According to the devs it get a bonus to the bonus to tractor beam range so they reach 70Km.
According to the links posted showing the spec the mac targeting range is 60km. This means that the max tractor range will be only 60Km. Even with max gang skills boosting this by 10% to 66km, assuming my maths is not wrong.
Can we have the max targeting range altered please to base of say 65Km? |
Dr Stark
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:28:00 -
[296]
ok so the only thing i see that ccp has not replayed to is the skills need for the new book
i will say that i have my order in to buy the ship right away from people that are readdy to get the bpo so i love every thing about
just want to be able to fly the thing right when i get it beside that one skill that not out
thank you ccp |
Tarh Assiliof
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:35:00 -
[297]
Originally by: shady trader According to the links posted showing the spec the mac targeting range is 60km. This means that the max tractor range will be only 60Km. Even with max gang skills boosting this by 10% to 66km, assuming my maths is not wrong.
You forget "Long Range Targeting". |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:41:00 -
[298]
Edited by: Kalderion Mar on 24/10/2008 17:43:36 No, a freighter cannot access the corp hanger outside of a POS...
Now, I have no complaints with the Orca, as My intended use is as designed. With one exception. With no way to empty the thing, how is it supposed to work? Yes, We could use several haulers.. but what have we then gained over using a command ship or a BC with a tractor on it? a little better bonus at a much greater cost. My Industry character can fill a can in less than 15 min. we usually mine with four or five hulks.. even with 4 hulks, thats at least three haulers to keep up if not in the same system as a station. Thats 4 cans (or more) filled every 15 minutes. meaning the Orca will then have to jump out of the system every 15 minutes. warp, dock, un-dock, warp, jump, warp again etc. Again, we are back to it being easier to just use a command ship and haulers..
Chronotis stated; CCP is considering; 2. Increasing capacity of the corporate hangar bay to 40,000m3 This is a reasonable increase in capacity without making the ship overly powerful.
It also doesnt help, another 10000m3 wont even hold a jetcan.. I guess, I need to understand what your intended Purpose of this ship is.
It it your intention that we still need to run as many haulers as we have hulks if one jump or more away from a station? If it is, then what is the advantage of the Orca? I think it is great, EXACTLY as is...(other than the obvious) I understand why others want different things on it, and also understand others would like to use it in different roles, which is awesome!!!! My only point / problem is that as it is, its intended purpose (as I currently understand it) is to bring people together in highsec mining ops... If People DO come together to use it in a highsec OP.. it will be filled in less than 15 minutes.. No freighter access, no compression... Wouldnt it have been a lot easier to just give the mining links a greater bonus and save all the time developing the Orca? Because what it comes down to, is that it will be nothing more than an oversized, overpriced command ship that has less of a tank, and less offence than the bonus giver / command ship we are currently using. My ONLY, request for change, would be,
1 At least allow this thing to sit in a belt for 30 minutes before it has to warp out and lose bonus's 2 OR; Allow Freighter Access. 3 would have been to enable compression... but; as Stated By Chronotis; 3. Why does it not compress ore like the rorqual?
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
Which leaves options one and two, I would prefer to see option two. I have no problems with people using it to salvage, or any other intersting thing that they can come up with, and I do hope CCP makes it a versatile ship so that it CAN be used in a myriad of ways... However, First, I would at least like to see it become a bit more usefull than what we already have, meaning a command ship with a tractor beam we have to run three or four haulers from. (Again, I am speaking in terms of actually using it as a command ship in High Security space for mining operations of three hulks or more.)
edit; spelling
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:42:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Tessen Edited by: Tessen on 24/10/2008 17:03:09 Hi. Change and fixes are very good except this one :
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Fixes
1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.
This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.
Rorqual have same leadership ability and dont need Leadership skills. This is the same for Command ships, Carriers, Motherships and Titans : they can use warfare links but it is not required for piloting the ship.
This feature allow pilots who dont have Leadership skill to pilot them aswell. Orca will be the only one ship who requier Advanced Command skill to fly it.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think Industrial Command ships Skill should not have Mining Foreman or mining Director requirement. Moreover, If someone want to fly it without Leadership module he'll have no choice and will have to learn this skill.
That's actually a damn fine point. Well spotted. |
Tessen
Stellar Tide
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:49:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Mioelnir
Originally by: Tessen
This is the same for Command ships, Carriers, Motherships and Titans : they can use warfare links but it is not required for piloting the ship.
Pretty sure last time I checked command ships needed Warfare Link Specialist 4.
Was thinking about Skirmish Warfare, Mining Foreman, and other xxx Warfare skills.
I know CS are T2 and Orca is T1 but I think Orca should change Mining Director 1 for Warfare Link Specialist 4 as for Command ships. After all, Orca is the Miner's Command ship.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.10.24 17:50:00 -
[301]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: SeismicForce
One question, can you put all ships into the maintenance bay, or only barges/industrials like the rorq?
it is unrestricted because we wanted to ease the issue of transporting rigged ships around. This is a change from the rorqual however was made for different reasons. We may well review the rorqual again and revamp its role in the future to remove that restriction but no promises.
Hmm, well a ship maint. bay with 400km3 isnt going to hold more than one rigged-battleship. So what would be the point of using it to haul rigged battleships? Might as well just fly the battleship!
Not knocking this ship by the way, it's a welcome addition, but if you want to cure moving rigged battleships around hi-sec then it would be handy if you lifted the 120km3 restriction on courier contracts. That way we could fit 3 maybe 4 into a freighter.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:08:00 -
[302]
Edited by: Unity Love on 24/10/2008 18:10:00 After reading many of the posts and thinking a while about them, I think that allowing a freighter to dock with the Orca would not only keep it in role as a mining command ship but also add another layer to hi-sec corp mining operations (while not changing mining to the extent that solo-miners are phased out).
As is, the Orca is basically acting as something to give bonuses and collect cans to a central point, which doesn't really have the depth a ship of this price/stature should have.
To stop abuse there could possibly be a one minute or so docking procedure of Orca <--> freighter.
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Checkis Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:11:00 -
[303]
Am I missing something, but on the test server, I can't find a single Orca ship for sale. I went to The Citadel, checked the DCM Corp and market, but can't see any...
Someone? |
Administrator Cain
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:14:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Hmm, well a ship maint. bay with 400km3 isnt going to hold more than one rigged-battleship. So what would be the point of using it to haul rigged battleships? Might as well just fly the battleship!
They never said rigged battleships just rigged ships, so everything sub battleship that rigged can still be moved.
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Checkis Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:25:00 -
[305]
Edited by: Checkis Khan on 24/10/2008 18:25:55
Originally by: Administrator Cain
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Hmm, well a ship maint. bay with 400km3 isnt going to hold more than one rigged-battleship. So what would be the point of using it to haul rigged battleships? Might as well just fly the battleship!
They never said rigged battleships just rigged ships, so everything sub battleship that rigged can still be moved.
The whole idea is that you could fit your rigged Hulks in it, and fly in your battleships, Battlecruisers, or whatever you want there, next to the Orca. (They would serve as an escort as well) See it as a way to deploy a complete Mining op in one go.
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Micha L
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:40:00 -
[306]
Nice to see new ind. ship! But But what we realy need is new Hulk or some kind of new ship with 4 mining lasers! : ) Thet is what we need not some comand ind. cap. hauler tractor ship empaer ship. Think about thet |
Arte
AFK
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:43:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Checkis Khan Am I missing something, but on the test server, I can't find a single Orca ship for sale. I went to The Citadel, checked the DCM Corp and market, but can't see any...
Someone?
Have you tried FD-MLJ or whatever its called... the system that has all mods/ships etc set to 100isk...? Market is likely as not seeded there. |
Dark water
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:48:00 -
[308]
ok the drone bay getting changed so as to be able to place out 5 med drones is a good change..
the ability to compress was not on my part from mining vel, it has to do with ice mining opps,
so i know that it will not hold a bs but will it be able to have a ratting ship or is it getting the same nerf that the rorqual got and not able to put combat ships in the ship maintenance bay?
and with the bay getting changed to 40k m3 is ok but not great.. my indy 5 can carry over 18k m3 so while it is nice and will help out some what with the can flippers it does not quite cover the goals that were hoped it would cover..
if we can keep the cost down and all it will be good for fleet ops but not so good for small corps or for solo players.. as i am afraid that with it the macro miners will be able to do more damage and that is not a good thing from my point of view.
i fell over laughing at first when i saw that it can have up to 75k tractor beam and only has a natural targeting range of 60k..lol good one but with skills it will work as well as if in high sec if you play smart you will not get ganked in it with that structure hit points and the concord buff.
now if you can make the roids respawn in high sec so as to make it worth while it does have a good start for a step up ship and i like it for the most part.
huallers will always be needed so one question can a freighter pick up from the ORCA.. if so then it does open up for a great addition to the game for the mining side and i can not wait to try one out even if it can not compress my ice..lol
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:09:00 -
[309]
Originally by: ight8 I really like the idea of the new ship, it's been a long time coming and it's due. The Rorqual is valuable because it can jump fearful miners into low sec and give them a some rat protection while making some nice isk. Instead you've given the Orca a pathetic tank, (3 mid slots?) an even more pathetic drone bay, (50 m/3) and a useless corp hanger. This pathetic concept is a kick to the groin of any miner. This ship does not carry on the concept of getting out of high sec and finding good ore. You should in fact be giving the orca a battleship tank, kill the hanger for a better drone bay, and give it some strip miners! at least then miners will be more apt to go into low-sec / 0.0 and chance something for a change. I sincerely hope you reconsider and help to bridge the gap between high sec miners and low sec miners. Other then that, thanks but no thanks, I already have an obelisk. Try this, 6 high slots, 6 mid slots, a battleship tank, a Dominix drone capacity, and bonuses to shield transport and drone damage. yeah it's a super hulk, but no hulk could ever stand up to a battleship for very long and still mine enough ore to make the hazard < reward. Otherwise tritanium prices in high sec are gonna drop to a point where you may as well give away the ships free. just like ice prices when you made concord respond faster.
You use macros don't you.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:12:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Arte
Originally by: Checkis Khan Am I missing something, but on the test server, I can't find a single Orca ship for sale. I went to The Citadel, checked the DCM Corp and market, but can't see any...
Someone?
Have you tried FD-MLJ or whatever its called... the system that has all mods/ships etc set to 100isk...? Market is likely as not seeded there.
Every constellation with a station in it has at least one 100isk seeded market.
But you are right, the Orca and associated stuff (blueprint, skill) are right now only seeded in FD-MLJ.
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Lance Bolvic
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:13:00 -
[311]
Interesting, I was kind of hoping that command links would be left to command ships and battle cruisers.. it gave non industry pilots a chance to help the miners out, flying haulers aside. This just takes that away, and hands it to the mining group. I don't know about the rest of eve, but in a multi-role corporation, this ship is just going to make that split even more of a "industry only" exclusive, not sure whether to cheer or not really. Being able to move rigged ships easier, will of course be much appreciated. :) |
Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:22:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Richard Albright
More high slots would be nice, even if it's to fill them with 5 tractor beams, as from the looks of the gang modules for mining there's really only one good one that I can see - duration, the other two I don't see the need for with this ship, and the cap use one is just a silly module for most miners as far as I am aware (playing eve since day 7 with various characters most of the time mining) as I've never ran out of cap mining in anything other than a rookie ship.
The other two mining gang mods are very important.
Cap one is so you can perma tank tripple BS spawns in your faction fitted hulk.
Range one is so you do not get hung up on rocks when roaming gangs come by and so you do not have to move so much to get new ore.
I really like my 23.5km range on my modulated strip miners.
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:50:00 -
[313]
Originally by: ight8 I really like the idea of the new ship, it's been a long time coming and it's due. The Rorqual is valuable because it can jump fearful miners into low sec and give them a some rat protection while making some nice isk. Instead you've given the Orca a pathetic tank, (3 mid slots?) an even more pathetic drone bay, (50 m/3) and a useless corp hanger. This pathetic concept is a kick to the groin of any miner. This ship does not carry on the concept of getting out of high sec and finding good ore. You should in fact be giving the orca a battleship tank, kill the hanger for a better drone bay, and give it some strip miners! at least then miners will be more apt to go into low-sec / 0.0 and chance something for a change. I sincerely hope you reconsider and help to bridge the gap between high sec miners and low sec miners. Other then that, thanks but no thanks, I already have an obelisk. Try this, 6 high slots, 6 mid slots, a battleship tank, a Dominix drone capacity, and bonuses to shield transport and drone damage. yeah it's a super hulk, but no hulk could ever stand up to a battleship for very long and still mine enough ore to make the hazard < reward. Otherwise tritanium prices in high sec are gonna drop to a point where you may as well give away the ships free. just like ice prices when you made concord respond faster.
Yeah! Cos the trit price is totally crashing, and not the highest it has ever been....ever!
Mining ships should not be solo tankable, if you want to go to 0.0/low sec to mine, group up like the rest of us. The ship you are talking about could rat easily and mine at the same time And ofc, if you bring out a ship with 6 strips, all you will do is mine twice as much ore, and crash prices....you're great
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Shani Nerkata
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:10:00 -
[314]
I agree w/ ppl who say Mining Director skills requierement is wrong.
This ship look like a jake of all trade considering it is also a very good hawler. It can be used in empire for travel or mooving small assets. This is the reason why I think Mining Director Skill could be replaced with something else.
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Cyrus Doul
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:11:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Vigilant And it just gets better !
Thanks for the quick reply, the "death" run to Outer Ring is such PITA...LOL
if they are supposed to be selling the bpo at both places, DCMI headquarters is in parra, which is 2 jumps from jita consecutive high sec.
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:14:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka DON'T CHANGE THE SKILL REQS ... I like them as low as they are ... makes the ship usable also without the gang links ...
I second this request.
You don't require other ships like carriers to be able to use all of the modules avaialble. We should be able to fly the Orca with lower skills, but to fly it WELL requires higher skills like mining director.
Personally my first plan for this thing is POS construction and resupply, I don't see why I need to know how to use mining links for that, or why I need to be able to fly a covetor -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:33:00 -
[317]
Please increse cargo. So rigged bs will fit in maintentence :( |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:41:00 -
[318]
Edited by: Unity Love on 24/10/2008 20:41:29
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Personally my first plan for this thing is POS construction and resupply, I don't see why I need to know how to use mining links for that, or why I need to be able to fly a covetor
IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR POS CONSTRUCTION AND RESUPPLY SO (UBER CAPS-LOCK = ON -->) STFU!! |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:45:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Dark water
and with the bay getting changed to 40k m3 is ok but not great.. my indy 5 can carry over 38k m3 so while it is nice and will help out some what with the can flippers it does not quite cover the goals that were hoped it would cover..
Agreed, even adding up the rigs and expanders as well as corp hanger it fails in this regard.
Originally by: Dark water
if we can keep the cost down and all it will be good for fleet ops but not so good for small corps or for solo players.. as i am afraid that with it the macro miners will be able to do more damage and that is not a good thing from my point of view.
Even in a small corp, there is a lot of potential if the cargo size is fixed in one way or another.
Originally by: Dark water
haulers will always be needed so one question can a freighter pick up from the ORCA.. if so then it does open up for a great addition to the game for the mining side and i can not wait to try one out even if it can not compress my ice..lol
Outside of a pos, no... unfortunately, since that would address the issues of multiple haulers for smaller corps.. As far as the Macro miners.. they arent our problem, they are the sole property of CCP, or in other words.. "Vengeance is Mine sayeth the CCP" The faster stronger concord kind of rules out the suicide ganking of suspected macroers, putting it even further out of our hands, so lets all agree to let CCP deal with them and not use them as an excuse NOT to do something fun for the rest of us. And Dark, that wasnt pointed at you, but have seen a few other posts quoting macroers as a reason NOT to do this or that.. so just added it in the bottom :) |
Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:53:00 -
[320]
The question has been posed several times: Can a freighter load from the Orca in space. The answer based on tests on SiSi is no.
Is that an option we should have? Will it cause more problems than it solves?
What would the implications be if freighters were allowed to interface with ship based corporate hangars?
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:56:00 -
[321]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis 3. Why does it not compress ore like the rorqual?
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
This was my only real interest in this ship as a carrier already serves my needs for a maintainace bay and mobile pos in 0.0. Can't you just give it a fraction of the compression values of a rorqual with the ability to only compress high sec ore types and what plans are those for easing the issues of no compression? Must have missed the dev blog about that one.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Esme Calladine
Ramm's RDI
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:03:00 -
[322]
I have to say, I really do like this ship.
I don't agree to the small corp argument. What once would require 3 haulers, now needs 1. More guys in hulks means more income.
I don't think cost is an issue really. 400 odd mil isn't going to break the bank. If a small corp can afford a few battleships they can afford this thing.
my only real reservations; no one is going to use gang link modules on this thing. High slot layout is going to be cloak, and 2 x tractors.
I also don't really see the ship maintenance bay being used for much. The ship is far too slow and vulnerable to be used to transport ships. the Rorqual and carriers has this covered; they have a jump drive.
I really think the Orca either needs a volume decrease (so we can move it in our Rorqual's along with our hulks), or a jump drive. These things are going to die in droves if they have to move under their own steam.
This thing really is going to be the uber hauler, it's long overdue :)
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:03:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Ship is way over powered for it's price and low skill reqs.
Increase price to 800mil.
Require Advance Spaceship Command lvl5.
Require Capital Ships lvl1.
Add 3 gang mod bonus.
Increase ship maint. bay for 4 hulks.
QFT
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:16:00 -
[324]
My 2c,
Devs, you made a great job with the Orca it is really wonderful sub-capital miner command ship. But Industrialists needed two ships badly Hi-sec "Rorqual" for miners and minifreigher for logistics, producers and traders. It is clear from two different sets of requests and whining in this thread and others. You tried to implement both of them as Orca but it fails in its second specialization. Players had simple request for minifreighter: 1) it should be able to transport at least courier package (120000 m3) 2) Maintance bay should be able to transport at least one BS
It failed in both of them. And on top of it even skills are geared toward miners. It is great, that miners received Orca, but can we receive minifreighter as well? It can even share same hull as Orca. Something simple like
40000-50000k base cargo, 450000m3 maintance bay, and corp hangar maybe of 10k, hell even if it won't have any corp cargo bay only few will cry ;)
and bonus for: 5% per level cargo space increase 5% per level maintance bay increas
As prerequisities for piloting skill it will be great to have something "logistics" - transport ships if you don't mind t2 or maybe a freighter skill even )
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:21:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Unity Love Edited by: Unity Love on 24/10/2008 20:41:29
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Personally my first plan for this thing is POS construction and resupply, I don't see why I need to know how to use mining links for that, or why I need to be able to fly a covetor
IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR POS CONSTRUCTION AND RESUPPLY SO (UBER CAPS-LOCK = ON -->) STFU!!
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:36:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Esme Calladine I have to say, I really do like this ship.
I don't agree to the small corp argument. What once would require 3 haulers, now needs 1. More guys in hulks means more income.
Not to be argumentative :P but if it took three haulers, to handle the ores from 4 hulks before, why would it not now? where are you going to put all the ore? Unless your going to use the Orca to haul with.. in which case you might as well toss out all the bonus's from it. 4 hulks will fill it in 15 minutes, meaning it will be out of system/in warp more often than its giving your fleet the bonus's it was designed for...
Originally by: Esme Calladine
my only real reservations; no one is going to use gang link modules on this thing. High slot layout is going to be cloak, and 2 x tractors.
why do you need a cloak in highsec? and one tractor should be sufficient to keep up with 4 hulks, obviously I plan to use the bonus's from it :)
Originally by: Esme Calladine
I also don't really see the ship maintenance bay being used for much. The ship is far too slow and vulnerable to be used to transport ships. the Rorqual and carriers has this covered; they have a jump drive.
I really think the Orca either needs a volume decrease (so we can move it in our Rorqual's along with our hulks), or a jump drive. These things are going to die in droves if they have to move under their own steam.
Think I see the problem... your going to take this thing into 0.0??? eeeek! why not just use the rorq? My Rorq is pretty slow to warp, but it would certainly make up for that aspect by having more ore space and compression... would def agree that they will die in droves if anyone takes them lower than .5 although.. they would make very sweet, juicy, delicious.... BAIT
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:45:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
In addition my point was that this ship can be used for more than jut mining oversight, so it shouldn't require mining oversight skills. THe Titan is a capital command ship but you can fly it without having the skills to use warefare links. The Carrier is a capital logistics ship but you can fly it without being able to use capital logistics modules. The Rorqual is also a mining oversight vessel but you can fly it without even having mining foreman. If you can fly every other ship before you have the skills to use the modules for it's main role then why should the orca be any different?
The man has a point. I can fly freighters, rorq etc so it doesnt really matter to me the skill req's for it, so as an unbiased observer I would tend to agree with him, let THE PEOPLE determine how they want to use it by not making the skills extremely difficult. In alliance space... I can see it being used for pos supply, even ore pick up and transport from belts to pos or station where you dont want to have to break out the rorqual. It will warp faster than a freighter or rorqual, possibly giving it the survival edge it needs, and is cheaper to replace than any other freighter or cap ship just in case that edge wasn't enough :P I'd not want to warp to the wrong belt and get ratscrammed with it though :P |
Esme Calladine
Ramm's RDI
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:54:00 -
[328]
I like argumentative :D
If it takes 4 hulks to fill the Orca in 15 minutes, how long does it take them to fill a standard hauler? The advantage is obvious; less time for one person to spend hauling. The bonuses aren't going to be used. If you want gang bonuses, you use a ship designed to give gang bonuses; one that stays in the belt.
This ship is not only going to be used in high sec. This ship is a godsend for 0.0 ops. Two tractors with a range bonus is going to allow you to keep up with a large and spread out mining op. As the general specs of the ship seems to suggest uber-transport ship, its going to be used in such a fashion. I don't know about everyone else, but I never move my Impel without a cloak :)
This thing is made for 0.0 :) just look at what its going to do for your mining ops. do we really need extra hauling in high sec? Macro miners always seems to be an issue, why help them out? We certainly don't need a tanking hauler in Empire. If you are going to get ganked, there's not much you can do about it. Rats are easy enough to deal with already. Does any transport ship pilot soil there underwear when frig rats show up? :)
I do agree, the Rorqual does pretty much everything I have suggested. We have one in corp that hasn't been out of its hangar since it was purchased! The Rorqual just seems too big and expensive a risk. I think even small corps can take a risk on 400 mil, but on 1.6bil?
I suppose I am just a bit confused on who the Orca is being aimed at. I think its a bit too "jack of all trades". either make it a super hauler, or a command ship; it will never be both.
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:59:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Ship is way over powered for it's price and low skill reqs.
Increase price to 800mil.
Require Advance Spaceship Command lvl5.
Require Capital Ships lvl1.
Add 3 gang mod bonus.
Increase ship maint. bay for 4 hulks.
QFT
You could have asked someone in-game to QFT quote you instead of having to do it yourself. Or, you could have selected the right character when posting the QFT. |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:23:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Esme Calladine
I like argumentative :D
If it takes 4 hulks to fill the Orca in 15 minutes, how long does it take them to fill a standard hauler? The advantage is obvious; less time for one person to spend hauling. The bonuses aren't going to be used. If you want gang bonuses, you use a ship designed to give gang bonuses; one that stays in the belt.
hehe, your absolutely correct, and thats my entire point with the Orca. As it stands now, we use a command ship for bonus's. That command ship tractors the cans to itself and leaves them in space, the haulers warp in, pick up the cans, and warp out... We WILL use the Orca because of the better bonus's, but right there is where the differences end..... It is going to sit in the belt giving bonus's, which means we still have to have the same amount of haulers zipping back and forth, hence.. my argument about it needing more room, or to allow a freighter to dock. with more room, it would be out of the system, or in warp less, allowing more "bonus" time, and allowing the freighter to access corp hanger is obvious... Gang Bonus's ARE being used, we use them evey single day, including weekends, Sundays, Holidays, we might take a beak at Christmas.. and my wife demands we take our anniversary off, shes a good woman and reminds me a week in advance.... Anyhow... the Orca IS designed to give those bonus's, better than a normal command ship.
Originally by: Esme Calladine
This ship is not only going to be used in high sec. This ship is a godsend for 0.0 ops. Two tractors with a range bonus is going to allow you to keep up with a large and spread out mining op. As the general specs of the ship seems to suggest uber-transport ship, its going to be used in such a fashion. I don't know about everyone else, but I never move my Impel without a cloak :)
No Argument there.. Sorry :(
Originally by: Esme Calladine
This thing is made for 0.0 :) just look at what its going to do for your mining ops. do we really need extra hauling in high sec? Macro miners always seems to be an issue, why help them out? We certainly don't need a tanking hauler in Empire. If you are going to get ganked, there's not much you can do about it. Rats are easy enough to deal with already. Does any transport ship pilot soil there underwear when frig rats show up? :)
part by part.. yes we need extra hauling in highsec, its the suckiest job there is in highsec, and no one wants to do it, and no one wants to pay someone to do it. We have several good Hulk Pilots, what sucks is to turn one or more of them into haulers and lose that productivity / yield. Macro Miners? CCP took ganking them out of my hands by fixing Concord, they are not Our concern, We want fun things, let the Devs Banhammer the macroers. Getting Ganked? agreed, nuthing you can do. And rats? I tend to completely ignore them with a passive tank on my Highsec hulk, so also agreed.
Originally by: Esme Calladine
I do agree, the Rorqual does pretty much everything I have suggested. We have one in corp that hasn't been out of its hangar since it was purchased! The Rorqual just seems too big and expensive a risk. I think even small corps can take a risk on 400 mil, but on 1.6bil?
Also Agree on this!
Originally by: Esme Calladine
I suppose I am just a bit confused on who the Orca is being aimed at. I think its a bit too "jack of all trades". either make it a super hauler, or a command ship; it will never be both.
NOOOOoooooo!!!! :( youve just ruined my fantasy..
Oh wait!! there is STILL the ability to allow a freighter to access it!! then its no super hauler, can still be a good command ship, and only requires two pilots for hauling instead of three or four!!! Compromise FTW! |
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Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:32:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Fulber
You could have asked someone in-game to QFT quote you instead of having to do it yourself. Or, you could have selected the right character when posting the QFT.
Epic spot lol.
Originally by: Xindi Kraid First of all there aren't any ships designed for POS construction or resupply. Second, why shouldn't I use the Orca for that purpose? Why should I bring out a freighter that costs twice as much and is 5 times slower just to end up wasting half of the cargo space when the orca will serve that purpose just fine?
Great use it for that. But don't demand changes to make it into something to suit your purposes.
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:37:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Tallonn Dex I have to admit, like many others, I am a bit underwhelmed with the stats for this ship, so far. It's a great attempt, but still feels like it falls short of being anything other than a mediocre ship.
First, it doesn't really bridge the gap between freighter and industrial. Depending on your set-up, it will only haul what 2-3 Itty V's will haul, and the ship bay is limited to BCs or less. I don't see that as being a 'mini freighter', so much as it being a 'sligthly larger' industrial. The comment from the blog is silly - of course you're still going to need haulers. ;) I don't see how this ship would replace the need for them.
The ship bay also seems too small. I read the CCP rep's response and it appears this was done intentionally to prevent rigged BS's from being hauled. If that's the case, then sadly, I don't see the ship bay size being enlarged all that much.
Next, I think a requirement for Barge V is silly. Essentially you have to have a Hulk pilot in this thing, and it seems counter-productive to require that. Does the math for a Mining Link specialist justify the loss of a Hulk pilot to run this ship? Regardless, I think Transport IV would make a lot more sense than Barge V, but that's just my opinion. If it's supposed to be a command ship/hauler hybrid, it would make more sense to require those types of skills - not mining skills.
I am personally ok with the drone bay size. I wouldnt use one of these ships solo, and with other ships around to take care of rats, I wouldn't be too worried about it's offensive capabilities. It would be nice if this thing could tank as easily as a Hulk, at least, so another mid-slot would be appreciated.
After Chronotis's explanation about the mining link operation, I am fine now with the number of high slots.
Really, I think this ship only falls short in capacity (both in its regular cargo hold and the ship bay) and in regards to its skill requirements to fly.
These are just my opinions, though. :)
I agree. If the ship can use 3 gang mods then it definitely goes up a notch, but even so.
- The cargo bay is too small. It should be around the size of a JF
- What's the purpose of a corp hangar on it? If you have haulers haul from it why not haul directly from the miners? Unless they are planning on removing jetcan mining
- Cost/utility seems out of balance. It's basically a larger iteron 5 with some gang links. If it's geared towards high sec there's really no problem that this is solving. And at 400M it's very expensive
- It gets no RR or other logistics bonus's to help the mining gang
- It can't tank for the gang if the cap recharge is reduced
- What's the point of a ship bay with no jump drive or clone bay? Almost all high sec mining spots have stations
- Cannot compress ore such as veld
So basically I don't see the role that this ship fits.
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Menthal
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:38:00 -
[333]
What about 4th highslot? 2 gang links and 2 tractors would be good to keep most mining ops running decently, offc that's hoping that a freighter might interact with the orca
pretty yellow beams
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Esme Calladine
Ramm's RDI
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:39:00 -
[334]
I assume though that your command ship pilot isn't doing the hauling also? so you have a ship giving bonuses, and a ship hauling.
From how I see the Orca, they have tried to combine the two roles, but it just doesn't work.
you either want a ship to stay put and give bonuses, or haul, not both. I agree you could have tractors on the command ship and not the hauler, but if you could, would you not rather have the command ship commanding, and the hauler hauling? why does the command ship need to waste its high slots? Give em guns and let them unleash hell :)
I don't really want 400mils worth of paper thin ship sitting in belt, unless its cloaked :D Get in there, empty the jet cans, and then get the hell out of dodge :)
I do agree on the haulage job, no one likes it at all! But isn't that part of the wonder of the Orca? :D They don't have to sit and wait helplessly, now they can haul over 3 jet cans of ore, or sit and wait cloaked :D Or run an XL booster long enough to empty a load of cans and get back to a station :)
I know the whole macro thing is a really touchy subject, I didn't really want to add it in, but it does seem kind of important. I don't really see them using the Orca, due to the gankability. A hulk is pretty cheap to replace now, but is an Orca?
I cant really comment on the freighter bit, as I haven't tried it. Has anyone confirmed that a freighter can collect ore from the Orca? If it can, that's a major result right there :)
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:40:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Fulber You could have asked someone in-game to QFT quote you instead of having to do it yourself. Or, you could have selected the right character when posting the QFT.
No, that would be less smarmy and out side my character. |
Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 22:51:00 -
[336]
I have a question for all of you who keep saying "let the freighter dock with it": Do you really, honestly want to leave your freighters in the belt for the time it will take to fill the freighter? An alternative option would be to get 2 orcas. It's cheaper and the second orca will let you bring more ships out. Set one Orca on command and the other as a hauler, problem solved |
Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:03:00 -
[337]
Edited by: Dr Prometheus on 24/10/2008 23:03:37 Well, make an orca clone, make it 1.5 times bigger call it The Dolphin and give it 300k cargospace, new texture on the thing make it cost around 500 mill. And voila Mini-freighter (Heavy Industrial Ship) has born. And for people realy wanting to transport ships; give the Freighters one high slot wich can have a "Ship Maintenance Bay Upgrade Module" your freighter bay turns into a ship maintenance bay and can only transport ships. so;
- Orca as Command Ship / Bufferhauler / Rigged Hulk transporter - Dolphin as "Industrial Transport Logistics Ship" - Freighters able to refit to a "carrier". |
Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:03:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid I have a question for all of you who keep saying "let the freighter dock with it": Do you really, honestly want to leave your freighters in the belt for the time it will take to fill the freighter? An alternative option would be to get 2 orcas. It's cheaper and the second orca will let you bring more ships out. Set one Orca on command and the other as a hauler, problem solved
So, just for laughs, lets say I do actually want to leave a freighter in the belt and have it loading from the Orca.
What would it mean for the rest of the game if freighters could interact with ship based corporate hangars? |
talara kokale
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:11:00 -
[339]
ok there is something i have to say, (now dont get me wrong i love the look and idea of this ship) but the training for it is too small i feel.
i read that mining barge 5 is a pre-req, and another person said this is not the right attrib, maybe leadership 5, and mining forman 5, science 5/engineering 5. just trying to think of something different from the perc/will power train that seems to bog this game down.
this feels alot like a free handover to ppl that have also trained for hulks, (i am also currently flying a hulk).
but anyway, yeh the skill training in my opionion is way to small for this ship. it needs something else to stop everyone getting one within a week or so of them being released. make it a challenge, after all it is a semi-CAPITAL ship, not a t2 or normal bs class ship.
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:11:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Esme Calladine
I assume though that your command ship pilot isn't doing the hauling also? so you have a ship giving bonuses, and a ship hauling.
From how I see the Orca, they have tried to combine the two roles, but it just doesn't work.
you either want a ship to stay put and give bonuses, or haul, not both. I agree you could have tractors on the command ship and not the hauler, but if you could, would you not rather have the command ship commanding, and the hauler hauling? why does the command ship need to waste its high slots? Give em guns and let them unleash hell :)
I don't really want 400mils worth of paper thin ship sitting in belt, unless its cloaked :D Get in there, empty the jet cans, and then get the hell out of dodge :)
I do agree on the haulage job, no one likes it at all! But isn't that part of the wonder of the Orca? :D They don't have to sit and wait helplessly, now they can haul over 3 jet cans of ore, or sit and wait cloaked :D Or run an XL booster long enough to empty a load of cans and get back to a station :)
I know the whole macro thing is a really touchy subject, I didn't really want to add it in, but it does seem kind of important. I don't really see them using the Orca, due to the gankability. A hulk is pretty cheap to replace now, but is an Orca?
I cant really comment on the freighter bit, as I haven't tried it. Has anyone confirmed that a freighter can collect ore from the Orca? If it can, that's a major result right there :)
Yep, thats correct, the command ship pilot stays in system to keep the bonus's going while haulers run back and forth like rats to a grain bin... In highsec, a command ship unleashing hell is usually kinda short lived with the exception of can flippers with friends, that can get interesting :) Its usually easier to just ignore the rats and let them beat on the hulks in futile aggression..
The beauty of the Orca, yes,as it stands, it will give the best bonus's so there wont be any hauling done with it in "our" camp. 4 hulks pumping out over 2000m3 per beam per cycle wont be easy to keep up with... while I agree, it has many possibilities, and would like to see CCP make the best of all of those possibilities, my personal hope, that it would make the more tedious part of mining/hauling a little more easy to deal with is yet to manifest. i agree with sitting that thing in a 0.0 belt is somewhat of a bad idea, but then, ive had my Rorq in a few belts, and that my friend can quickly stand your hair on end when Intel is slow :P I'm WAY too old for that, My wife would laugh so hard she would wet her pants if i had a heart attack in my chair playing a "stupid Computer game" |
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:12:00 -
[341]
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 24/10/2008 23:12:05
Originally by: Leumas Kharzim So, just for laughs, lets say I do actually want to leave a freighter in the belt and have it loading from the Orca.
Then just for laughs I would watch as somone blows it up while the rest of the mining fleet makes it's escape to saftey
Quote: What would it mean for the rest of the game if freighters could interact with ship based corporate hangars?
That would be awesome, but most of the comments were regarding the Orca, not capship corp hangars in general |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:25:00 -
[342]
Edited by: Kalderion Mar on 24/10/2008 23:28:16
Originally by: talara kokale ok there is something i have to say, (now dont get me wrong i love the look and idea of this ship) but the training for it is too small i feel.
i read that mining barge 5 is a pre-req, and another person said this is not the right attrib, maybe leadership 5, and mining forman 5, science 5/engineering 5. just trying to think of something different from the perc/will power train that seems to bog this game down.
this feels alot like a free handover to ppl that have also trained for hulks, (i am also currently flying a hulk).
but anyway, yeh the skill training in my opionion is way to small for this ship. it needs something else to stop everyone getting one within a week or so of them being released. make it a challenge, after all it is a semi-CAPITAL ship, not a t2 or normal bs class ship.
Most of those skills wont matter, there are people that have them already, like me, I think there will be a big boom, and that it will drop off just as sharply. everyone wants a new toy, but when the newness wears off it wont get used as much. I do think it will get used a lot more than the / my Rorq... WTS slightly used Rorq, battery is dead, tires flat, mice have chewed the wiring, but would be great for a restoration project!
Edit; NO the freighter cannot interact with the Orca in space. The idea of TWO Orcas has some merit, that is something i hadnt thought of!! |
Kesper North
Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:32:00 -
[343]
Here's an interesting question for the devs: Will Orcas be able to use l4 mission acceleration gates, so people can get at those missions that have mineable ores in them? |
talara kokale
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:36:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar Edited by: Kalderion Mar on 24/10/2008 23:28:16
Most of those skills wont matter, there are people that have them already, like me, I think there will be a big boom, and that it will drop off just as sharply. everyone wants a new toy, but when the newness wears off it wont get used as much. I do think it will get used a lot more than the / my Rorq... WTS slightly used Rorq, battery is dead, tires flat, mice have chewed the wiring, but would be great for a restoration project!
Edit; NO the freighter cannot interact with the Orca in space. The idea of TWO Orcas has some merit, that is something i hadnt thought of!!
this is very true, but it would be nice to see ccp consider ppl who have naff perc/will attribs when designing something that is obviously not combat based.
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Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:37:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 24/10/2008 23:12:05
Originally by: Leumas Kharzim What would it mean for the rest of the game if freighters could interact with ship based corporate hangars?
That would be awesome, but most of the comments were regarding the Orca, not capship corp hangars in general
Yeah, I realize that. I am primarily talking about the Orca and freighter interacting, but if you open it up to one, why not all? I would be interested in a discussion on it. New thread.
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TCL987
Gallente Hannibals Pirates
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:38:00 -
[346]
When will people be given the skills needed on SISI?
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McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 23:53:00 -
[347]
For people who still haven't heard or dont read my posts in this and other topics...
No Freighters cannot pull from the orca. I tested it on SiSi and got a message that a freighter can only scoop when in range of A: POS and B: Outpost Platform.
If you want to test it, u need to get on SiSi and go to FD-MLJ. That is where the skill/ship/bpo was seeded.
--McFly-- |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.25 00:09:00 -
[348]
Aye McFly... err, sorry... I did read your post, and TYVM for testing that, much appreciated! Good idea with the freighter too.
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ChaoticDemon
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Posted - 2008.10.25 01:58:00 -
[349]
I would prefer not to have to train barge 5 but makes sense also instead of mining director 1 I do agree with warfare link spec 4 Also I spent a very long time training for command ships on my alt would love to have this but would like at least same tank ability as a command ship or bs at least a few more mid slots and 5 highs 3 links tractor salvager would be great get all bonuses and can clean belt or ability to fit command processor for additional links
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.10.25 02:10:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Administrator Cain
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Hmm, well a ship maint. bay with 400km3 isnt going to hold more than one rigged-battleship. So what would be the point of using it to haul rigged battleships? Might as well just fly the battleship!
They never said rigged battleships just rigged ships, so everything sub battleship that rigged can still be moved.
They said "rigged ships" not "rigged ships except battleships".
As I stated, I may have 3 or 4 rigged battleships. It aint helping. QED.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.10.25 02:13:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Checkis Khan
The whole idea is that you could fit your rigged Hulks in it, and fly in your battleships, Battlecruisers, or whatever you want there, next to the Orca. (They would serve as an escort as well) See it as a way to deploy a complete Mining op in one go.
Why would I need an escort in hi-sec?
It said "to help with the problem of moving rigged ships about". Battleships have rigs as well. If it can only move one then it aint helping.
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Erosi
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Posted - 2008.10.25 03:02:00 -
[352]
Wonder why you guys didnt consider doing two types of the industrial command ships (there is two versions of every other commandship), leave the orca the way it is (plus earlier suggested changes) and make another that is 100% for rigged ship transport (no cargohold or module slots) only a ship array.
I know that as a mission runner i would enjoy having a ship that would transfer all my missioning ships around.
Thats my two cents. |
Administrator Cain
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Posted - 2008.10.25 03:09:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
They said "rigged ships" not "rigged ships except battleships".
As I stated, I may have 3 or 4 rigged battleships. It aint helping. QED.
Actually they did say that it was intentional that it can't carry battleships, I'll try to find a link. |
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.25 04:15:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Erosi Wonder why you guys didnt consider doing two types of the industrial command ships (there is two versions of every other commandship), leave the orca the way it is (plus earlier suggested changes) and make another that is 100% for rigged ship transport (no cargohold or module slots) only a ship array.
I know that as a mission runner i would enjoy having a ship that would transfer all my missioning ships around.
Thats my two cents.
Indeed. Make the Orca a dedicated high sec mining command ship then make a new racial mini-freighter with ~300k m3 max cargobay with a 2/2/1 slot 3 rig layout and a maintainence bay that can store 1 rigged bs and enought leftover m3 to pack in an additional amount of rigged ships just short of a second bs. |
StryderII
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Posted - 2008.10.25 04:45:00 -
[355]
After looking at projected statistics for this ship, it seems like a dream come true for Hi sec miners and the gang bonus % hike is nice. I was hoping CCP would tweak the Rorqual and not have to use Heavy Water to get its bonus's. Also with all these new Capitals in game and mineral requirements. Does CCP have in mind a Super Freighter for all that trit? Or possibly a way to compress minerals as well for transport?
Thank you for any feedback |
Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.10.25 05:19:00 -
[356]
Edited by: Krylon Rhae on 25/10/2008 05:20:53
I posted this in another thread and thought it would be good here as well.... your thoughts.
I had been hoping that this ship would allow it to sit in the belt with my hulks and stuff itself with ore to avoid the need to run back and forth to station/POS and save some hauling time and effort... essentially replacing the hauler.
As it is currently configured, the total storage area is just shy of 3 Iteron V hauler loads with a very large ship maintenance bay sitting there idle and unused during the op.
I was sleeping on this idea and would like to throw this out for an airing. What if we had the ability to install special storage containers in the ship maintenance bay to allow them to hold ore during and extended op. The storage cans could be 100k each and could be added and delelted to meet the required need of the time. This would allow the orca to sit in system for a very long time and gorge itself on ore. The ore could then be placed into the corp hanger and then moved to the storage containers.
I am simply looking for a way to extend the usability of this ship and keep it on station providing boost and storage for as long a time as possible.
[Edit]... had another take on the storage issue. What if the entire ship cargo/storage area was configurable based upon a corps needs at the moment. What if the +/-90k m3, 30-40k m3 and 400k m3 could be reconfigured before undocking (perhaps at a cost and delay) so that the ship could be reconfigured to have a cargo bay of 10k, and ship maintemance bay of 0k and a corp hanger with the balance. This allows the ship to be configured for in belt use. It could be reconfigured to a ship hauler by moving all the area into the maintenance hanger. If you are transporting goods you could reconfigure to have all the area in the cargo hold.
Now this is real flexibility but would come at a cost (basically to pay the station crew to change the ship configuration) and a delay in time (perhaps it takes 10-minutes to accomplish) before undocking.
Just some random thoughts... |
Raw Figmo
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Posted - 2008.10.25 06:35:00 -
[357]
Hmmm,,, Looks like a "Fail Freighter" to me. Anyone who thinks for one second that high sec mining pays off is on drugs. You'll never make your GTC quota in time, especially with ice prices so low anymore. If you are gonna make a mini Rorqual then it had better compare to running lvl 4's solo. That means the Orca would need to go low sec at least.
Maybe it doesn't need to have fighter drones, but it does need to have a drone bay like a dominix. (the DPS you do is half your defense) and with 3 mid slots, your gonna need an act of god and 10 disciples to survive. Problem is, your thinking small freighter with a few slots, when you should be thinking battleship with a large cargo hold and maybe a shield transfer bonus. And don't tell me a ship with 50k hull has a 10k shield, that would essentially make all the engineering skills I worked forever on null and void. The tank doesn't seem properly proportional to me, and there is no good ore in high sec. That's why I call it the Fail Freighter.
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.25 07:02:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Krylon Rhae something about reconfiguring the bays
Now thats an interesting idea that might warrant an extra thread. I would like to be able to tweak the bay sizes even if it is only through rigs.
Which makes me think, If we have cargo bay rigs why not maint bay rigs and corp hangar rigs for cap ships? -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.25 07:53:00 -
[359]
sorry but rigged expanded orca can acompany 10 hulks for like 8 minutes? Whats the point?
I t need at least cargo for 30 minutes. It needs to fit at least 1 rigged bs. Or it will end as freighter for poor. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg guide ninja edited already hidden topic: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread |
Cloned S0ul
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Posted - 2008.10.25 08:28:00 -
[360]
Boost the Orca,more cargo for our new baby,Free Orca
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Aganola
Amarr Hungarian Riflemen Regiment
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Posted - 2008.10.25 08:29:00 -
[361]
Have to repost this from another thread... sorry... Just made this:
Actually the default price on the test server was something like 360m ... :P
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N'jo Kampala
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Posted - 2008.10.25 08:52:00 -
[362]
what a bummer..!
What is this ??
Is it a miner... no cant mine
Is it a hauler... no cant turn and fly fast enough
is it a mobile orecontainer... no its got a ridiculous small cargospace even with expanders and rigs(4-5 cans if using the corphangar), and it cant compress ore.
What would i need a maintenancebay or a corphangar for in highsec, if the highsec ganker passes through i wont have time to change ships anyway, rigged ships ?? it can fit a rigged BC and thats about it. Oh and now 1 of our haulers have to pilot this thing, so the rest of the haulers can get even more busy. Lowsec ??? you gotta be kidding... with this useless drone and tank capability ??
Well what is it then you ask... let me tell you... Its a jetcan mining nerf, its a need for speed additive. If it wasn't for the group bonuses, it would be the singlemost useless ship in the entire game. But then again.. you could get bonuses from a BC, which could be fitted for protection or mining at the same time ???
so CCP this really needs a lot more attention, what do you want with this ship, it needs focus and purpose.... Don't think that miners will be chewing on this bone happily for long.... This is a great indicator of how you weigh out the different sides of this game, you don't think much of the miners and industrialists of EvE, im dissapointed.
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Aganola
Amarr Hungarian Riflemen Regiment
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Posted - 2008.10.25 08:59:00 -
[363]
Originally by: N'jo Kampala what a bummer..!
What is this ??
Is it a miner... no cant mine
Is it a hauler... no cant turn and fly fast enough
is it a mobile orecontainer... no its got a ridiculous small cargospace even with expanders and rigs(4-5 cans if using the corphangar), and it cant compress ore.
What would i need a maintenancebay or a corphangar for in highsec, if the highsec ganker passes through i wont have time to change ships anyway, rigged ships ?? it can fit a rigged BC and thats about it. Oh and now 1 of our haulers have to pilot this thing, so the rest of the haulers can get even more busy. Lowsec ??? you gotta be kidding... with this useless drone and tank capability ??
Well what is it then you ask... let me tell you... Its a jetcan mining nerf, its a need for speed additive. If it wasn't for the group bonuses, it would be the singlemost useless ship in the entire game. But then again.. you could get bonuses from a BC, which could be fitted for protection or mining at the same time ???
so CCP this really needs a lot more attention, what do you want with this ship, it needs focus and purpose.... Don't think that miners will be chewing on this bone happily for long.... This is a great indicator of how you weigh out the different sides of this game, you don't think much of the miners and industrialists of EvE, im dissapointed.
yeah... something like that... if it had jumping capability then it would be fun to jump around in and out mining OPs... but then again that mining stuff would be more expensive than buying it in jita, and bringing it down to 0.0 with 5 jumps... :P
most of all it need a HELL LOT MORE cargo space! :P |
Wadaya
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.25 09:43:00 -
[364]
So basically this is a really a 400 mil battlecruiser that can't fight or do missions? Without ore compression, just have someone sit in a belt with a Hurricane or a Nighthawk. Thanks for saving me 5+ bil on BPO's.
Wad |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.25 10:25:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Checkis Khan Am I missing something, but on the test server, I can't find a single Orca ship for sale. I went to The Citadel, checked the DCM Corp and market, but can't see any...
Someone?
They're seeded on the test server in FD-MLJ in syndicate, otherwise known as 'test server central' |
Zaknussem
Caldari The Ironbreakers
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Posted - 2008.10.25 11:09:00 -
[366]
For all of you whining about this ship being several shades of fail, think about the following facts:
# CCP have not finished modifying the ship. There may still come some changes that improve the Orca.
# We do not know all of the game changes that are in store for us in the winter expansion. There may be something in there that makes the Orca a more viable ship.
# It's a T1 ship, their main strength has always been versatility, not specialization. You want specialization, wait for the T2 version.
# If one Orca can only do the job half-decently, try using two...or more. One Orca lording it up over the mining op, and another for hauling the goods. Of all the ships that can pickup stuff in hi-sec, which ship has the largest cargo capacity? The Orca.
The only problem I see with this ship are the skill requirements. They are a little...off. Currently we need Mining Foreman 3 and Mining Barges 5. This should be changed, for example, to need Mining Director 1 (which needs Mining Foreman 5) and Mining Barge 4, or even 3.
I will be getting myself one, that's for certain. |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.25 11:16:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Zaknussem For all of you whining about this ship being several shades of fail, think about the following facts:
# CCP have not finished modifying the ship. There may still come some changes that improve the Orca.
# We do not know all of the game changes that are in store for us in the winter expansion. There may be something in there that makes the Orca a more viable ship.
# It's a T1 ship, their main strength has always been versatility, not specialization. You want specialization, wait for the T2 version.
# If one Orca can only do the job half-decently, try using two...or more. One Orca lording it up over the mining op, and another for hauling the goods. Of all the ships that can pickup stuff in hi-sec, which ship has the largest cargo capacity? The Orca.
The only problem I see with this ship are the skill requirements. They are a little...off. Currently we need Mining Foreman 3 and Mining Barges 5. This should be changed, for example, to need Mining Director 1 (which needs Mining Foreman 5) and Mining Barge 4, or even 3.
I will be getting myself one, that's for certain.
It already needs Director I (Chronotis ammended it on page 10 or so)
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.25 11:21:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Esme Calladine
I assume though that your command ship pilot isn't doing the hauling also? so you have a ship giving bonuses, and a ship hauling.
From how I see the Orca, they have tried to combine the two roles, but it just doesn't work.
I agree it doesn't work if you try and have the same pilot doing both. However, just because there's only one Orca ship class, doesn't mean you can only have one Orca in your op, or that all your Orcas have to do the same thing.
Right now a fully-bonused op would need a seperate gang bonus pilot and hauler pilot anyway, so there's potential there to replace both roles with two different Orcas.
The command-bonus Orca in the group gives stronger bonuses than any other ship in high-sec. However, it is weaker militarily than the battlecruiser/command ship it would replace, so depending on the operating environment, you may need an additional combat vessel, though this could become a more effective combat vessel as you wouldn't be limited to BC/CS classes. In less hostile environments, this Orca can also sit in the belt and double-up as a massive secure can. Or it can POS-hug in less secure environments in the same way the Rorqual does.
In the hauler role, the Orca looks to be able to be pushed to about 3 times the capacity of alternative belt->station haulers, without a significant reduction in speed. Plus, if you fit this one a full rack of tractors, you can hoover up from throughout the belt in one trip in a way any other hauler couldn't hope to do. I would expect to be able to replace several haulers with a single Orca on larger ops. This is also likely to be it's primary role in low-sec/0.0, with the Rorqual on POS-sitting gang-bonus duty, and the Orca ferrying the ore to the Rorqual for compression.
Originally by: Esme Calladine I don't really want 400mils worth of paper thin ship sitting in belt, unless its cloaked :D Get in there, empty the jet cans, and then get the hell out of dodge :)
While it's not as tankable as maybe I'd like, the Orca is far from being paper-thin. Especially if you forgo expanding the one sitting in the belt in favour of a damage control and reinforced bulkheads. Sure, it's not a long-term tank, but it does become quite a nice HP buffer.
Originally by: Esme Calladine I cant really comment on the freighter bit, as I haven't tried it. Has anyone confirmed that a freighter can collect ore from the Orca? If it can, that's a major result right there :)
As others have mentioned, I'm not sure this would be a particular benefit given the current design of the Orca. You'd either have to have the freighter sitting in the belt for the majority of the time, or risk keeping nearly a freighters worth of ore in the belt in jet-cans. Both options are risky and not necessarily appealing. And if you haul with the freighter using only what the Orca can stockpile safely, you may as well use another Orca instead of the freighter.
To make freighter-loading effective, the Orca would have to be able to safely stockpile a freighter's worth of ore in the belt. Clearly giving it a freighter-like cargo capacity would be unbalanced. So the only way I can think to do that would be to give the Orca a deployable mode which expanded it's cargohold to freighter levels, but rendered it immobile. Of course, that would still be a risky option in terms of getting ganked, so I'm not sure how widely it would get used.
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Why would I need an escort in hi-sec?
War-dec?
PvP combat can happen in high-sec, but it's not going to if people insist on industrial ship design that is not escortable.
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl sorry but rigged expanded orca can acompany 10 hulks for like 8 minutes? Whats the point?
Because a Hauling Orca should be able to easily make it to station and back in 8 minutes? Have a hauling race between one Orca pilot and the usual compliment of industrials you'd use on that op. You should see the point pretty quickly. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Unity Love
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.25 11:58:00 -
[369]
Originally by: matthew As others have mentioned, I'm not sure this would be a particular benefit given the current design of the Orca. You'd either have to have the freighter sitting in the belt for the majority of the time, or risk keeping nearly a freighters worth of ore in the belt in jet-cans. Both options are risky and not necessarily appealing. And if you haul with the freighter using only what the Orca can stockpile safely, you may as well use another Orca instead of the freighter.
If your in hi-sec chances are leaving the freighter in the belt near the orca is 99% safe. Sure you could be war-decced, but chances are your not.
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spud maur
Gallente IBF2
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Posted - 2008.10.25 12:27:00 -
[370]
Edited by: spud maur on 25/10/2008 12:28:03 im loving the look of the ship but do we realy need a hanger in the damn thing if it can only haul 2 hulks? i have 6 hulk in my corp and an other 2 traing to that lvl so 8 hulks will fill this a tad too quick remove teh hanger bay and give it at decent cargo bay, if this is ment to be a mini freigher give it half the cargo bay of the freighter,
also needing mining barge V is well out of place mabe that new skill Capitl industrial to iv would be a better call and remove mining barge from the new skill requirments and replace it with Transpot ships III or IV
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Csatti
FREE GATES Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.25 12:45:00 -
[371]
Edited by: Csatti on 25/10/2008 12:46:08
Originally by: spud maur Edited by: spud maur on 25/10/2008 12:28:03 im loving the look of the ship but do we realy need a hanger in the damn thing if it can only haul 2 hulks? i have 6 hulk in my corp and an other 2 traing to that lvl so 8 hulks will fill this a tad too quick remove teh hanger bay and give it at decent cargo bay, if this is ment to be a mini freigher give it half the cargo bay of the freighter,
also needing mining barge V is well out of place mabe that new skill Capitl industrial to iv would be a better call and remove mining barge from the new skill requirments and replace it with Transpot ships III or IV
Don't touch my hangarbay. :) This will be the first baby to be able to haul rigged ships in high space making it very useful for moving entire fleets of smaller rigged ships from one point to another. It is a sad thing that it can't carry a BS as it would make it the home of many mission runners as well.
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Ruv Kaulovesh
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Posted - 2008.10.25 13:18:00 -
[372]
yes, yes, lets ***** that ccp does nothing about macrominers and then ask that we add strip miners to this thing...
realy people..
and as far as it requiring transport 5 insted of barge 5 strictly on the fact that its got a big cargo bay.. its a command ship, you want to make me learn a whole new set of skills too then.. make it a command ships prereq then. and then everyone needs to train for a fiew weeks. right now i run wing command from a hulk this would be the next step up for me, gonna hurt loosing those strip miners but hey, thats how they decided to do it.
ccp great job on the new command ship, been dieing for something like this, should make everyones life easier keeping the haulers out of the belt with a loading station.
i do agree with the bigger maitnance bay tho, would like to see it fit 3 covs/hulks and a hauler if ya could doubble it maby so they can park their runabouts as well. i can see so many posibilitys for this ship but almost all would need a little bigger maintanance bay
far as the scanning timer bonus.. why, ore scanner range is huge on it 1 scan is all you need in most high sec belts. if your out looking for hidden belts bring a t2 frig with ya.
and on the cargo bay side of things, damn people, 4 cans isnt enough for you? even with t1 rigs it should be over 3 i would think
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spud maur
Gallente IBF2
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Posted - 2008.10.25 13:42:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Csatti Edited by: Csatti on 25/10/2008 12:46:08
Originally by: spud maur Edited by: spud maur on 25/10/2008 12:28:03 im loving the look of the ship but do we realy need a hanger in the damn thing if it can only haul 2 hulks? i have 6 hulk in my corp and an other 2 traing to that lvl so 8 hulks will fill this a tad too quick remove teh hanger bay and give it at decent cargo bay, if this is ment to be a mini freigher give it half the cargo bay of the freighter,
also needing mining barge V is well out of place mabe that new skill Capitl industrial to iv would be a better call and remove mining barge from the new skill requirments and replace it with Transpot ships III or IV
Don't touch my hangarbay. :) This will be the first baby to be able to haul rigged ships in high space making it very useful for moving entire fleets of smaller rigged ships from one point to another. It is a sad thing that it can't carry a BS as it would make it the home of many mission runners as well.
ok then mabe a smaller maintanice bay :) but i think any decent industrial corp worth its salt will have more than 3 or 4 hulks and the cargo bay in this ship will be too small for these guys because i know with 8 hulks ill proly need 3 of thsese babys!!
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.25 14:41:00 -
[374]
With the Orca having a ship bay of 400km3, it's just a little smaller than being able to put a rigged (ie assembled) BS in. Is this by design or will BS's be shrunk just a teeny bit in order to be hauled by the Orca.
ofc, a repackaged BS can easily fit...
Chairman | www.eve-bank.net |
Csatti
FREE GATES Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.25 14:48:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal With the Orca having a ship bay of 400km3, it's just a little smaller than being able to put a rigged (ie assembled) BS in. Is this by design or will BS's be shrunk just a teeny bit in order to be hauled by the Orca.
ofc, a repackaged BS can easily fit...
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
... The addition of the ship maintenance bay which is not big enough to carry battleships (on purpose) but carry 2 hulks makes it role also swap a lot between general hauler and mining specialist and it suffers the same as the rorqual to an extent. ...
this answers that... (see page 10 for more details)
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Signati
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Posted - 2008.10.25 15:26:00 -
[376]
Edited by: Signati on 25/10/2008 15:28:25
Originally by: spud maur
ok then mabe a smaller maintanice bay :) but i think any decent industrial corp worth its salt will have more than 3 or 4 hulks and the cargo bay in this ship will be too small for these guys because i know with 8 hulks ill proly need 3 of thsese babys!!
I think its fine as it is. I will likely use the Orca to haul 2 of the hulks/transports while those pilots escort me to the mining zone in 2 BS/BC class ships.
The other pilots can fly there hulks up there with a transport fitting and should make it there before the orca.
But, if people are content on having it haul more than 2 hulks, why not look into a bonus that reduces the space a barge/exumer takes in the bay. that way it still wouldnt be able to haul a BS but could move maybe 4 hulks? enough for a good mining op. |
Arthur Pewty
Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.25 15:44:00 -
[377]
I would like to request a change, that would reduce the ability for this ship to be used by Characters in NPC/Starting Corps:
Make the majority of the cargohold into Corp Hangar Array space. The Pilot will still be able to access the space, but members of the gang will not, I belive, as they will not have permissions to the divisions within the Hanger.
Arthur
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Jonathon Iceflaster
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Posted - 2008.10.25 15:53:00 -
[378]
How fast does this ship go?
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Kyroto
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Posted - 2008.10.25 15:58:00 -
[379]
I think this is a great start for the ship, and CCP has openly said they're going to tweak it so nothing is final yet. Feedback from this form can help change this ship for the better. I do agree, that this ship needs a little bit more focus to one side or the other. It cannot mine itself, but since its mining op intended I dont see a need for it to mine itself. I think CCP is trying to see this ship being a hub for haulers and barges. And thats not a bad idea, but its still going to take 1 pilot away from the actual op and not provide enough of a benefit that would make the 1 less person mining worth it.
My suggestion is, if your going to keep the cargohold the size it is and make it a centerpoint for haulers to come to it and retrieve the ore, then it should atleast make a difference in the hauling. Put the compression system on it, and let it give the ability of letting haulers move ore 3X faster than norm. Or, if you actually want this thing to be the hauler then you could still keep the cargo size the same and put the compression system on it. That way its only docking once an hour or so, rather every 15mins. Which at at that point, makes the fleet bonuses useless.
My Suggstions:
òWith-Out Compression: CargoHold 120k m3 + skill bonuses 5% per level would be fine. Corp Hanger 60k m3 (assuming you have 2 haulers running for really big ops, this would give them a full load each in consecutive docks) Ship Mainteance Bay 400k m3 is fine, after all I see no reason why this should have to carry rigged Battleships around (considering the nature of this ship. I know a lot of you would love this ship for that but considering its an industrial ship its a rather moot point).
òWith Compression: Everything as is.
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.25 16:09:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Unity Love If your in hi-sec chances are leaving the freighter in the belt near the orca is 99% safe. Sure you could be war-decced, but chances are your not.
True, it's safer in high-sec, but it's still an additional risk that wouldn't be necessary to take unless your mining op was of a sufficient size to overwhelm the hauling capabilities of an Orca, which are already considerably increased compared to existing options.
I can certainly see situations where the ability to interface with a freighter would be useful, I just don't think the lack of it is a particular problem, given that the Orca is already boosting hauling capacity anyway. |
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.10.25 16:15:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Jonathon Iceflaster How fast does this ship go?
Base speed is 60m/s with skills it will be faster but I only tested it with Cargohold expander II's and T1 cargo rigs, so my top speed was something like 61m/s. |
Dralor
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Posted - 2008.10.25 16:19:00 -
[382]
Im guessing most of you have looked at what Chronotis said about the 400 mil price tag and thought it is what it will sell for in game. Soon as the info for this ship came out i checked it out on Tranq server, around 9bil needed for all the bpos if your going to build it. Then takes approx 400mil to build in components "not counting the orca bpo/bpc" which we all know will be out of this world high for quite a while. So if you plan on getting one of these anytime soon after it comes out you should be prepared to pony up 1bil plus. In later months ill be it will go down to around 700-800mil to buy but it will "pretty much never" be able to be bought at 400mil.
Think abou that, same price as a freighter......... |
Voxis
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Posted - 2008.10.25 17:56:00 -
[383]
Can we please have it able to fit turrets? I mean, heck, it is a nice looking ship, but what if I want to put her to pasture with t2 lasers on? Please? |
Thevlyn
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Posted - 2008.10.25 18:15:00 -
[384]
i have not read through all the posts on this discussion, but maybe my input will help. I recommend increasing the cargo hold to that of a jump freighter. Reasons: Jump freighter has its own separate ability which makes it better at its job then this would ever be. At current, my hulk mines 27k ever 13min, with a hold of ~130 max, or ~110 realistically for most, that's about 4 hulks to fill every 13min. 4 hulks is a small operation. With a price of 400M, which is low for med corps, it is too high for small corps, or newer corps. And if you want to replace more then 1 itty 5 with these, your talking about 400M per which could get expensive. If it had the base capacity closer to 150km3. everything else about the ship is awesome, and i will just have to get more then 1, which i already plan to do. but a 150km3 base would give the leader the ability to do both roles, in a smaller op, or in a larger op it would require fewer haulers. This is just a thought, and if it is possible, could we get a dev response on your thoughts about the capacity? And in addition, AWESOME job with this ship, no matter how you cut it it fits the role that i imagined you wanted completely. For those who think it has no use, or needs compression or a better tank. Have you even seen the joke that is a high sec rat? If you manage to loose an orca to a high sec rat then you should try a new game, because you obviously don't know what your doing. As far as low sec, It will still be awesome as is, but as with anything else in low sec, the risk goes up. If you think they made this for low and null sec, your WRONG. Is it great for low and null sec, yes. Just because it CAN go into low and null does not mean it is meant for it, and those who know what they are doing, will probably find a way to make it tank well enough to do the job they want. Cry more if you think it is in any way meant to replace combat ships.
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Hera Su
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Posted - 2008.10.25 19:13:00 -
[385]
CCP, its brilliant, just enough cargo capacity with max potential of 90k m3 to make it not replacment for freighter yet so far unseen hauling ability with a lil spice called mining gang modules, hangar for riged ships at same time just enough slots to make it able to satisfy mining operatioon needs as scanner, tractor beem etc..
...but not enough to use it to modify it for combat or modifing its purpouse
its a mining command center we were all waiting, it can be used in other purpouses, for instance u can use cmd ship ment for combat to support miners in mining but its not using ship to its full potential so all stuff said bout its replacment for this or that doesnt really hold ground.
theres one right job for orca, corp mining command center with corporate hangar for charges like mining crystals and similar, ship hangar bay to bring ships required for assistance or when doing nothing help corpmate transport riged ship and ofc hauling capacity.
simply said brilliant, im sure few will have some good ideas how to make it better(if its possible) but as far ive seen in dev blog, ship is well made as it is.
i guess we cant use orca as commercial air line:P but we can indeed make mining career proffesional, say have u saw mining gang effectivness bonus at any command ship so far? yep, its gonna have its place for use :))
just wanted to share the satisfaction with ccp inovations, i luv ccp :D |
Hera Su
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Posted - 2008.10.25 19:21:00 -
[386]
ah yes, ore compresion, not really needed or justified when u got 99% highsec systems with stations with 50% base refinery efficency.
u dont want to break the bonus while u dock to station to unload cargo?
well build a starbase(pos) at some moon in mining sys u operate, simply warp to hangar bay and unload while miners are in midcycle, once thats done perhaps one big load in freighter and trip to station will do,
or in very least to have a buffer betwen transport ship or industrial one while its on the way to station and can flipers just wait u to get filled in that time, again a buffer that has mining bonuses
tools are out there, i guess we just need to get the hand of it
this game, o man, looking 2 years back and now, i dont see the limit for it, from now on into future, it just smashes bounderys of any game ever and makes u the builder of your destiny in virtual world gameing
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Clarence X
Enlightened Research and Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.25 20:08:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Checkis Khan
The whole idea is that you could fit your rigged Hulks in it, and fly in your battleships, Battlecruisers, or whatever you want there, next to the Orca. (They would serve as an escort as well) See it as a way to deploy a complete Mining op in one go.
This will only be true for a lot of us miners if it fits into the Rorqual bay. Would then make a useful 3-man mobile mining op. A Rorqual and a couple ships lighting cynos turns into 2 hulks and an orca to bring the ore back to the rorqual sitting within the forcefield of a newly-deployed small pos, waiting and being utilized to compress the ore harvest when the orca pilot needs to switch ships.
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Dark water
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Posted - 2008.10.25 20:14:00 -
[388]
lol
ok i have been running this past all the miners in the alliance. now while this ship does not help out the small corp nor the solo miner.... in which can not be done unless we are to be handing out a rock eater for the macro miners to kill al the belts with even faster.. sorry small corps i know you need the help and do not want to be forced into joining the larger corps or alliances it is sad but till we find a way to deal with the macro miner i do not know how to do it.. it does have great potential for mining bonuses as well as enough bays.. in high sec no one is going to pop the ship without you agressing them or without loosing more isk value of ships then you do to do so now that concord has been buffed.. a transport ship tanked 50 odd bs and lived after the concord buff in high sec.. so if i get 5 med drones and can move 2 hulks or hulk and inty with it and i have 2 orca to do this then with planning and smart play it is going to add to the effectiveness of my mining opps greatly.. as well as give me extra exumers for the late members to show up on small fast ships and trade out at the orca to get the mining going.. with the use of 2 you do not have to be concerned about the can flippers as much.. only if they can get to the can before you can get it tractored in...
it would be nice for it to be buffed some.. and do to the amount of space ice takes up it would be nice to be able to compress it even if it is just a option that is made into the npc stations..
i have been compressing ore in low sec and 0.0 with the rorqual and it makes it a lot easier for transporting the minerals needed for the building of items.. so if it is not added to the ship can we get it set up for compression in and at npc stations and or maybe a new pos structure so as to have the ability to compress for shipping reasons.. not just for vel but for all.
now if any can come up with a good way to help out the small corps and the solo miners i for one would like to know .. or if we can come up with a way to stop all the macro miners so as to make the mining in high sec better for those that are true miners trying to make a living in this game....
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.25 20:20:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 25/10/2008 20:25:52
Originally by: Dark water lol now while this ship does not help out the small corp nor the solo miner....
Incorrect.
My hulk, alt in bc with 7 gang mods, and alt in mastodon can mine out entire .5 systems in a few hours.
Now, my alt in a hulk, leadership alt in orca with t2 mining drones and hauler alt in orca with t2 mining drones.
I will eliminate entire constellations solo in just a few hours.
Perfect solo setup.
---
Although I am a 0.0 miner.
So, My main in a perma tanking faction fitted hulk that can tank triple 1,850k BS spawns. My leadership alt in a rorq at the pos with 3 mining gang mods and 2 shield gang mods, and my cloaking orca hauler.
Again, perfect solo setup.
The only problem with the orca is that the price and skill reqs are too low for how powerful it is.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.25 20:54:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Dralor Im guessing most of you have looked at what Chronotis said about the 400 mil price tag and thought it is what it will sell for in game. Soon as the info for this ship came out i checked it out on Tranq server, around 9bil needed for all the bpos if your going to build it. Then takes approx 400mil to build in components "not counting the orca bpo/bpc" which we all know will be out of this world high for quite a while. So if you plan on getting one of these anytime soon after it comes out you should be prepared to pony up 1bil plus. In later months ill be it will go down to around 700-800mil to buy but it will "pretty much never" be able to be bought at 400mil.
Think abou that, same price as a freighter.........
Going with that logic, it sure is interesting that Carriers (around 17bn for the whole bpo set) don't cost 1.5bn anymore (which would be 2x ccp baseprice, same as a 800m orca).
There are more things you have to consider than just the BPO price.
And what do you mean with "...hich we all know will be out of this world high for quite a while"? It is a frakkin tech 1 bpo, empire seeded, semi-fixed price, unlimited supply. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.25 21:12:00 -
[391]
Why does eveyone think you should have mining director to fly an orca?
You won't use it JUST for mining oversight so why make mining oversight a requirements?
You can fly dreads before you can use siege modules, you can fly carriers before you can use capital logistics modules (and the triage modul) and you can even fly titans before you can use the doomsday device. On a smaller scale you can fly any class of ship and still not be able to fit guns on them, and I would be surprised if theres an idiot out there flying a makinaw without the skill to use ice miners. If none of the other ships require you to have module skills to fly the hull why should the orca?
Of course like any other ship, once you have the skills to be able to fly the orca, you are going to want to train other skills so that you can fly it well and use all of the modules it has bonuses for. It's just stupid to have ONE role required for a multi role ship. -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Wieland II
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.25 21:15:00 -
[392]
I want that ship as a freighter. It looks so fantastic. Alot better than the Gallente, Caldari and Minmatar freighters.
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Captain Agemman
Minmatar Legio Ultra
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Posted - 2008.10.25 23:50:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Why does eveyone think you should have mining director to fly an orca?
You won't use it JUST for mining oversight so why make mining oversight a requirements?
You can fly dreads before you can use siege modules, you can fly carriers before you can use capital logistics modules (and the triage modul) and you can even fly titans before you can use the doomsday device. On a smaller scale you can fly any class of ship and still not be able to fit guns on them, and I would be surprised if theres an idiot out there flying a makinaw without the skill to use ice miners. If none of the other ships require you to have module skills to fly the hull why should the orca?
Of course like any other ship, once you have the skills to be able to fly the orca, you are going to want to train other skills so that you can fly it well and use all of the modules it has bonuses for. It's just stupid to have ONE role required for a multi role ship.
It's an INDUSTRIAL COMMAND SHIP. Command Ships need leadership skills. You can argue if Warefare Link Specialist 4 would be better suited, similar to field and fleet command ships, ok.
But for $your_deity's sake, stop complaining about the leadership skill requirement. Command Ship = Leadership skills. Plain. Simple. |
Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.26 02:06:00 -
[394]
And take this into consideration. In a fleet mining op, anyone in the fleet can place ore into the hangar but only corp members can remove the ore from the corp hangar, not even Alliance members can. So your haulers have to be in your corp or you will have to toss out cans for haulers to get the ore. That's what I've experienced so far.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.26 02:24:00 -
[395]
Edited by: Zeba on 26/10/2008 02:31:24
Originally by: Hera Su ah yes, ore compresion, not really needed or justified when u got 99% highsec systems with stations with 50% base refinery efficency.
u dont want to break the bonus while u dock to station to unload cargo?
well build a starbase(pos) at some moon in mining sys u operate, simply warp to hangar bay and unload while miners are in midcycle, once thats done perhaps one big load in freighter and trip to station will do,
or in very least to have a buffer betwen transport ship or industrial one while its on the way to station and can flipers just wait u to get filled in that time, again a buffer that has mining bonuses
tools are out there, i guess we just need to get the hand of it
this game, o man, looking 2 years back and now, i dont see the limit for it, from now on into future, it just smashes bounderys of any game ever and makes u the builder of your destiny in virtual world gameing
Look how stupid you are. So your saying that to use an orca to its fullest potential you not only need to add another member to your mining op but you also need to maintain a high sec pos to use it with all the extra hassle of fuleling it and defending it vs a nub wardec from the privateers? Plz see the first sentence.
Also:
Originally by: Wadaya So basically this is a really a 400 mil battlecruiser that can't fight or do missions? Without ore compression, just have someone sit in a belt with a Hurricane or a Nighthawk. Thanks for saving me 5+ bil on BPO's.
Wad
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Kantrel
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Posted - 2008.10.26 03:09:00 -
[396]
Looking at the building requirement materials, the Orca requires more Capital Cargo Bays to build than the Rorqual but has less space. That doesn't make sense.
Capital Cargo Bays needed and total space Orca = 37 gives 30,000 m3 cargo Rorqual = 22 gives 40,000 m3 cargo
In comparison to the Rorqual, shouldn't it require less?
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Lusulpher
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 04:39:00 -
[397]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 26/10/2008 04:39:47 A step in the correct direction...
Needs boosting on drones, cargo and tank though, but only slightly.
Transport IV/V (or Logistics V ) has it as the best skill to use instead of Barge V. Miners mine, not haul. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.10.26 05:15:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 26/10/2008 05:17:40
I've avoid this thread simply because I did not care to be lost in the wave of commentary/moaning. However I think it safe to say that many things presented here are very good. I wanted to repeat some ideas that I thought best as a way of showing support:
1 - Reduce basic cargo hold to 15,000 m3 and increase corporate hangar bay to 120m3. If macro miners do start putting this ship to use, we don't have to bother concord to handle it. We can war dec them ourselves.
2 - Do not create special role for more than one gang module. Leave that for a t2 version of Orca, if ever. If people want multiple bonuses they can have multiple Orca's or have another BC/Command Ship running.
2a - Do not require mining director 1. Orca is a multi-role platform. Do not force people to train up skills unnecessary to the other possible roles for this ship. As of this time, Orca does not appear to be a mining only ship and not having Mining Director 1 brings it's own penalties to anyone who pilots an Orca.
2b - Do increase the skill requirements. This should not be low level content nor should it be high level content. However having some slightly elevated skill reqs while reward new people who specialize or allow veterans who don't mind.
I think the Orca is the first of a new class of ships, sub-capitals. Like Destroyers and Battlecruisers, there is some very fine lines that need to be watched. So far I think you've done a fine job and I look forward to the end result. |
vikari
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.10.26 05:20:00 -
[399]
My feelings on the orca...
Though it is a great addition to the industrial's fleet, i believe it has missed the mark on both was CCP advertised and what the players were asking for. What were the players asking for? They were asking for a new mining command ship, something that would honestly give full support to large mining ops. So why does it fall short of this? There were to ways to truly accomplish this, two issues the mining ops face. First is bonuses, for a mining operation to be more profitable then solo operations you need a good bonus, the Orca can fit a single command module, two possible, but if you did that your going to use all three of the high slots, realistically there goes your tractoring bonus. Two is hauling. The pace of mining is often slowed by the need of hauling, and the Rorqual addresses this in a very effective way, compression, the orca lacks all and any ability in this field.
So where does this leave the Orca? I can give a huge bonus in one area (on module), but it hasn't truly replaced the command ship. If it is to take that job it will need to have 4 high slots and the ability to mount 3 command modules. This simple allows for a full advantage of the bonus of leadership and tractor beams. Alternatively, you could allow for compression, if even less compressed then the Rorqual, to help reduce the need for hauling.
So what roles will the Orca take? A mini freighter, I believe this will be its most common place in eve. As a mining companion, I see it being used for facilitating the pick up of cans and centrally locating them for the haulers. Of course mining ops can extend beyond a 70km radius, so honestly the Orca is only going to help in the majority, not all mining ops.
What are some options that would benefit the Orca greatly without making it "overpowered" for high sec (obviously not all of these, just possible combinations of the following):
1. 4 High slots with the ability for three gang assist modules (or number 2). 2. Give the Orca compression ability, limit to high sec ores, with smaller compression then the Rorqual. 3. Give the Orca the ability to have a clone bay, this facilitates alts and stragglers coming in on the op and simply jumping into a ship stored in the maintenance bay. 4. Slightly boost the range of the tractor beam, so it might ready 100km, to facilitate. those mining ops that spread out over significantly larger areas (usually mission mining)
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Thor Fortrex
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Posted - 2008.10.26 06:59:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Kyroto
My Suggstions:
CargoHold 120k m3 + skill bonuses 5% per level would be fine. Corp Hanger 60k m3 (assuming you have 2 haulers running for really big ops, this would give them a full load each in consecutive docks) Ship Mainteance Bay 400k m3 is fine, after all I see no reason why this should have to carry rigged Battleships around (considering the nature of this ship. I know a lot of you would love this ship for that but considering its an industrial ship its a rather moot point).
Cargo Hold of 120,000m3 +5% Per Level Sounds good to me as well.
Corporate Hangar Bay of 60,000m3 makes perfect sense as well. It could hold two FULL loads from Expanded/Rigged Transport Ships.
Ship Maintenance Bay should be INCREASED so it can hold more Hulks/Transports. I'd reccommend 500,000m3 myslf, and ALLOW it to carry ONE rigged Battleship. With more and more players rigging their ships, a way to move them all around is sorely needed.
However... if CCP is hell bent on not allowing it to carry Battleships, then just make it so it can't carry that ship type. That way we can carry more of the smaller classes of ships to the mining op. |
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Thor Fortrex
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:05:00 -
[401]
Edited by: Thor Fortrex on 26/10/2008 07:14:52
Originally by: Kantrel Looking at the building requirement materials, the Orca requires more Capital Cargo Bays to build than the Rorqual but has less space. That doesn't make sense.
Capital Cargo Bays needed and total space Orca = 37 gives 30,000 m3 cargo Rorqual = 22 gives 40,000 m3 cargo
In comparison to the Rorqual, shouldn't it require less?
*EDIT* Sounds like the two values should be swapped around to be honest. CCP needs to tweak that requirement.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:17:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Lusulpher Edited by: Lusulpher on 26/10/2008 04:39:47 A step in the correct direction...
Needs boosting on drones, cargo and tank though, but only slightly.
Transport IV/V (or Logistics V ) has it as the best skill to use instead of Barge V. Miners mine, not haul.
These are T2 skills, no T1 ship requires T2 skills.
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
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Drevar
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:53:00 -
[403]
The best solution for the cargo issue I have heard was to move most of the standard hold capacity into the corporate hangar. Change the skill bonus to +5% Corporate Hangar capacity per level.
This does two things. It gives enough capacity in a single place to handle at least 1 Freighter class courier contract (with proper, but not excessive skill and fitting), and it negates most of its usefulness to newbie corp macro miners.
In the absence of attention to the primary cargo issue, a true mini-freighter is still needed to fill the gap (both price and cargo) between the racial Industrials and Freighter/Jump Freighters. The Mining command options appear fine with the tweaks and fixes mentioned by Chronotis.
Drev |
Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.26 08:11:00 -
[404]
What if the cargo bay and corporate hangar are both the same size and both get a bonus to size per level of Industrial Command Ships. |
Gaelyn Ryhn
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Posted - 2008.10.26 10:45:00 -
[405]
Personally I calculate an Orca as being three haulers in a single mining OP. When Orca fills up you dock at the station dump the ore. You lose 30 seconds of boost on this while gaining the amount of ISK that you'd normally have to pay two additional haulers. I'd say it's a win situation. Also if you have a really big OP going one Orca is not gonna cut it anyway. Just switch the boost to another Orca while one of them is docking. If you're afraid of losing cycles because your laser distance reverts back to 15km, the Orca pilot could post a line in the fleet chat telling he's about to dock, in which case you'd stop your current cycle for the duration of the docking. Small inconvenience in my book.
If you're mining in a system without stations, you'd of course lose minutes upon minutes of precious boost time. This is where I see the use of two Orcas (or Orca + Command ship) as being the best solution. One Orca hauls, the other one boosts. Still you need less people in haulers and therefor gain more profits than you did without Orca. Let's keep in mind that Orca (so far) sound like it's dirt cheap. I don't see why not almost every Hulk, industrial and hauler character couldn't own one in the future. And when they're that common I really don't see a problem with some of them jumping between systems and docking to dump the ore.
As for hauling rigged ships, it's a little disappointing not to be able to fit a BS in it, along with another smaller ship. I was hoping that Orca would solve the logistical inconvenience of changing HQ, corp, missioning system, etc. Enough space for atleast a BS and a cruiser in the maintenance bay would be nice.
These are my thoughts so far, without having actually tested the ship.
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Kai Lomu
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Posted - 2008.10.26 11:03:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Kai Lomu on 26/10/2008 11:04:58 Mining Director requirement is not unreasonable. This is a mining command ship afterall. That said the logistics skill also makes sense and compliments the idea of a mining supremo running a complex operation.
Congratulations to CCP for bringing the Orca to life. I can't wait to fire one up in Eve.
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Astarte Efga'ir
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Posted - 2008.10.26 11:13:00 -
[407]
Looking at the building requirement materials, the Orca requires more Capital Cargo Bays to build than the Rorqual but has less space. That doesn't make sense.
Capital Cargo Bays needed and total space Orca = 37 gives 30,000 m3 cargo Rorqual = 22 gives 40,000 m3 cargo
In comparison to the Rorqual, shouldn't it require less?
On the other hand the Orca doesn't need any Capital Corporate Hangar Arrays to build,.. needs balanced?
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.26 12:24:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Astarte Efga'ir Looking at the building requirement materials, the Orca requires more Capital Cargo Bays to build than the Rorqual but has less space. That doesn't make sense.
Capital Cargo Bays needed and total space Orca = 37 gives 30,000 m3 cargo Rorqual = 22 gives 40,000 m3 cargo
In comparison to the Rorqual, shouldn't it require less?
On the other hand the Orca doesn't need any Capital Corporate Hangar Arrays to build,.. needs balanced?
No a dev post a couple pages back says they fixxed that. -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.26 12:50:00 -
[409]
Originally by: vikari First is bonuses, for a mining operation to be more profitable then solo operations you need a good bonus, the Orca can fit a single command module, two possible, but if you did that your going to use all three of the high slots, realistically there goes your tractoring bonus. So it hasn't replaced the Command ship.
As I've already pointed out, multi-role does not mean all-roles-at-the-same-time, and there's nothing stopping you having more than one Orca in your mining op.
I also notice that you conveniently omit that the Orca will get a higher bonus out of those gang modules than the normal command ships can.
Originally by: vikari Two is hauling. The pace of mining is often slowed by the need of hauling, and the Rorqual addresses this in a very effective way, compression, the orca lacks all and any ability in this field.
Very few Rorquals compress ore in the belt because of the risks posed by being immobilised by the industrial core. Which means even when you're using a Rorqual, you still have a belt->rorqual stage of hauling, similar to the standard belt->station or belt->POS alternatives. It's this stage that's the bottleneck, because you're limited to industrial/transport ships to do it. Once you get to past that stage, you can migrate to freighters/compressed ore.
The advantage the rorqual gives in this instance is a considerable increase in capacity on the belt->station/POS/Rorqual stage of hauling. I did a quick test on sisi last night, comparing a max-expanded Orca with a max-expanded Occator. Based on their relative capacities and round-trip times, a single Orca can replace 2.4 Occators. And of course because this Orca isn't your gang-bonus Orca, you can mount a full rack of tractors to hoover things up.
So potentially you could replace 1 command ship and at least 2.4 haulers, with 2 occators, saving you at least 1.4 pilots in the Op. |
Kumai
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Posted - 2008.10.26 13:46:00 -
[410]
This looks like a really cool ship. I realise its an empire focused venture and I really like its uses. Still though would be nice to have a ship like this (this size) with a jump drive. Could make it shorter range than standard for low-sec, 0.0 life as well. Maybe make it flyabe with present skills but have an "optional" add on jump drive or something with additional skill requirements but couldnt use gates when its fitted...?
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.26 16:59:00 -
[411]
I would still.... like to see the Orca capable of handling 8 jetcans worth of ore. At least then you COULD run a single hauler / bonus giver with three to four hulks and be comfortable if not perfect.
I also read a thread where someone suggested allowing us to reconfigure the orca while in a station or pos.. thats not a bad idea either, especially since i will seldom, if ever use the ability to carry rigged ships in it, there are others that want to use it for that purpose. reconfiguration ability WOULD make this one of the most versatile ships in the game, and used by more players than any other ship type. |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.26 17:00:00 -
[412]
Originally by: vikari
So why does it fall short of this? There were two ways to truly accomplish this, two issues the a mining op faces. First is bonuses, for a mining operation to be more profitable then solo operations you need a good bonus, the Orca can fit a single command module, two possible, but if you did that your going to use all three of the high slots, realistically there goes your tractoring bonus. So it hasn't replaced the Command ship.
Read page 10. CCP Chronitis says that it will be 3 command module. I agree with others that the module modifying the cap usage of lasers is a waste so two modules + a tractor. (I'd like to be able to use 2 and 2, but 2 and 1 will probably be OK.)
Originally by: vikari
Two is hauling. The pace of mining is often slowed by the need of hauling, and the Rorqual addresses this in a very effective way, compression, the orca lacks all and any ability in this field.
As has been noted before, one Orca can replace about 3 maxed out haulers. On the larger ops that I have been part of so far, there was one fleet command ship, usually just parked outside a station, a bunch of miners flying whatever they could, but mostly Hulks, and multiple haulers to keep up with the rock killing.
Now I can see 1 Orca in the middle of the belt giving the bonuses and maybe tractoring the cans to it's location, and another Orca doing the hauling of 3+ Iteron 5s also from a single location. Makes the hauling easier, and puts more miners in the field.
That doesn't look like a fail to me.
And yes, it'll be a pretty decent freight mover too. (Finally rigged ship mover in high sec)
Originally by: vikari
Of course mining ops can extend beyond a 70km radius, so honestly the Orca is only going to help in the majority, not all mining ops.
I don't think I've seen any high-sec belts* with a total diameter beyond 170km ((70 + 15) * 2) and with the range bonus available by the command module, that diameter is only increased.
(* Other than ice of course, but then everybody can be shipping away at the same block so range isn't an issue there) |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.26 17:14:00 -
[413]
I have a question that I don't think has been asked yet, but it may be common knowledge.
Can a pilot move stuff from a crago bay into the corporate hangar while in the middle of a belt? If so, that puts this ship over 4 cans worth of cargo. Not too shabby.
Also, if it can do that, then this ship doesn't really need a very large cargo hold, just a larger hangar. (There was a suggestion to halve the base cargo space and tripple the corp hangar. I could see that as being a valid option) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:04:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 26/10/2008 18:05:05
Originally by: Thorson Wiles I have a question that I don't think has been asked yet, but it may be common knowledge.
Can a pilot move stuff from a crago bay into the corporate hangar while in the middle of a belt? If so, that puts this ship over 4 cans worth of cargo. Not too shabby.
Also, if it can do that, then this ship doesn't really need a very large cargo hold, just a larger hangar. (There was a suggestion to halve the base cargo space and tripple the corp hangar. I could see that as being a valid option)
Yes, the orca pilot can drag from the SMA to his hold in space. Although the Orca pilot can not refit the orca with his own SMA. (He should be able to tho)
Plus, only gang members can access the SMA. |
Tetron Firestorm
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:05:00 -
[415]
I was quite excited by the idea of the orca when I first heard about it thought we were getting a capital mining ship, yes I know the barges are very good but as a person who enjoys mining I was hopping to get a capital ship that could do it. The orca doesnt seem to fill this role at all, if you do not intend to change the orca, I would suggest another sub capital I think it should have two major things. The first of which is the unique ability to hold and deploy fighter sized mining drones, if things that big can hold guns they can hold mining lasers. Also I think it should get longer ranged larger strip miners, other then that the usual large cargo space etc would be nice. I would love to have seen this on the orca but sadly it doesnt seem like thats what this ship is for. |
Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:09:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Tetron Firestorm I was quite excited by the idea of the orca when I first heard about it thought we were getting a capital mining ship, yes I know the barges are very good but as a person who enjoys mining I was hopping to get a capital ship that could do it. The orca doesnt seem to fill this role at all, if you do not intend to change the orca, I would suggest another sub capital I think it should have two major things. The first of which is the unique ability to hold and deploy fighter sized mining drones, if things that big can hold guns they can hold mining lasers. Also I think it should get longer ranged larger strip miners, other then that the usual large cargo space etc would be nice. I would love to have seen this on the orca but sadly it doesnt seem like thats what this ship is for.
I suggested Fighter-sized Mining Drones years ago, glad the idea is catching on.
However, a capital mining ship with turret hardpoints?
I hope you understand that it will never happen, it would enable the macro users to effectively destroy mining as a profession.
The ICE and ORE market is bad enough as it is because of macro users.
Although, if you remove the tank and increase the price to 2bil, perhaps it could work. |
Arrath Jair
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:17:00 -
[417]
Originally by: Gaelyn Ryhn Personally I calculate an Orca as being three haulers in a single mining OP. When Orca fills up you dock at the station dump the ore. You lose 30 seconds of boost on this while gaining the amount of ISK that you'd normally have to pay two additional haulers. I'd say it's a win situation. Also if you have a really big OP going one Orca is not gonna cut it anyway. Just switch the boost to another Orca while one of them is docking. If you're afraid of losing cycles because your laser distance reverts back to 15km, the Orca pilot could post a line in the fleet chat telling he's about to dock, in which case you'd stop your current cycle for the duration of the docking. Small inconvenience in my book.
If you're mining in a system without stations, you'd of course lose minutes upon minutes of precious boost time. This is where I see the use of two Orcas (or Orca + Command ship) as being the best solution. One Orca hauls, the other one boosts. Still you need less people in haulers and therefor gain more profits than you did without Orca. Let's keep in mind that Orca (so far) sound like it's dirt cheap. I don't see why not almost every Hulk, industrial and hauler character couldn't own one in the future. And when they're that common I really don't see a problem with some of them jumping between systems and docking to dump the ore.
As for hauling rigged ships, it's a little disappointing not to be able to fit a BS in it, along with another smaller ship. I was hoping that Orca would solve the logistical inconvenience of changing HQ, corp, missioning system, etc. Enough space for atleast a BS and a cruiser in the maintenance bay would be nice.
These are my thoughts so far, without having actually tested the ship.
As for the 30 seconds boost-less time you calculate. Have you ever flown a ship with command modules? Those modules switch off when you go to warp, so, the 30sec time isn't true. Depending on how far away the station is it can be quite a while without bonus.
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.26 23:05:00 -
[418]
I like the thinking going into this ship. Based on Chronalis's comments, I'm hoping that this ship gets a boost to allow stockpiling of some large amount of ore that would significantly impact upon a Freighter's cargo capacity. Ideally, Freighters would be able to load from the corporate hangar - but there are ways to work around that. There is already a mini-freighter which can access that bay.
Perhaps with a larger ore-specific bay, you could have Orcas running in tandem - one rigged specifically for servicing four hulks in a belt, the other rigged specifically for hauling ore. Two Orcas drop off four hulks, the belt is swallowed up into various cargo bays, with the second orca doing the hauling. An Orca rigged for mining support could use its low slots for tanking instead of cargo expanders. Ideally the Orca would be a shield-tanker just like the Hulks it's supporting, but no reason why the lows can be filled with shield power relays to free the mids up for resist modules.
Just my two bits worth. I will be anxiously awaiting news of the ore-only cargo hold which will make the Orca a must-have mining fleet ship (and hauler). |
Flixer
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:39:00 -
[419]
NO dont increase the need of skills! I wanted to get one of those cause they look like handy ships...but I dont want to skill another month extra just to get something like that.
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:53:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Flixer NO dont increase the need of skills! I wanted to get one of those cause they look like handy ships...but I dont want to skill another month extra just to get something like that.
Wearing a ship is not the same as flying it.
Even if the only req is frig lvl1, you should spend the 6 months to fly it proper before you even buy the ship.
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Flixer
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:04:00 -
[421]
Edited by: Flixer on 27/10/2008 01:06:46
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Originally by: Flixer NO dont increase the need of skills! I wanted to get one of those cause they look like handy ships...but I dont want to skill another month extra just to get something like that.
Wearing a ship is not the same as flying it.
Even if the only req is frig lvl1, you should spend the 6 months to fly it proper before you even buy the ship.
True but the ship is multiple useable and I dont need every single thing it can do. As an example the carrier: you can use it for jump transportation or to fight with in battles, but some only use it for just 1 of the two options and "wasted" lots of skill time on the other just cause its necessary to fly it. Or you could just use it to help ratters... whatever but it has many ways to use it and I hope you see my point. |
Maglorre
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:22:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Thorson Wiles
Now I can see 1 Orca in the middle of the belt giving the bonuses and maybe tractoring the cans to it's location, and another Orca doing the hauling of 3+ Iteron 5s also from a single location. Makes the hauling easier, and puts more miners in the field.
Except it doesn't put more miners in the field. To run 2 Orcas you have to have 2 people that would, most likely, be capable of flying a hulk in the Orcas. So you have now replaced 3 people specialised for hauling skills with 2 people specialised for mining and have reduced the mining capacity of your group.
In my mind this is the biggest problem with this ship. Why does the SHIP need the skills to run the gang links when the gang links themselves require the skills?
The skill requirements don't really make sense to me. Yes, it's a mining support ship but it's essentially a hauler that can run gang links. The gang links require all the relevant skills to use, why should the ship also require it?
- A carrier can fit warfare links but dos not require the warfare leadership skills.
- A Rorqual can fit the gang links and does not require mining director.
I understand that the training time for this ship needs to be reasonably significant but for those people that have trained to be good at hauling to not be able to switch to this ship without training mining barge 5 and mining director first seems a little unusual.
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Flixer
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:42:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Maglorre
Originally by: Thorson Wiles
Now I can see 1 Orca in the middle of the belt giving the bonuses and maybe tractoring the cans to it's location, and another Orca doing the hauling of 3+ Iteron 5s also from a single location. Makes the hauling easier, and puts more miners in the field.
Except it doesn't put more miners in the field. To run 2 Orcas you have to have 2 people that would, most likely, be capable of flying a hulk in the Orcas. So you have now replaced 3 people specialised for hauling skills with 2 people specialised for mining and have reduced the mining capacity of your group.
In my mind this is the biggest problem with this ship. Why does the SHIP need the skills to run the gang links when the gang links themselves require the skills?
The skill requirements don't really make sense to me. Yes, it's a mining support ship but it's essentially a hauler that can run gang links. The gang links require all the relevant skills to use, why should the ship also require it?
- A carrier can fit warfare links but dos not require the warfare leadership skills.
- A Rorqual can fit the gang links and does not require mining director.
I understand that the training time for this ship needs to be reasonably significant but for those people that have trained to be good at hauling to not be able to switch to this ship without training mining barge 5 and mining director first seems a little unusual.
totally agreed ! |
Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.27 03:09:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Maglorre
Originally by: Thorson Wiles
Now I can see 1 Orca in the middle of the belt giving the bonuses and maybe tractoring the cans to it's location, and another Orca doing the hauling of 3+ Iteron 5s also from a single location. Makes the hauling easier, and puts more miners in the field.
Except it doesn't put more miners in the field. To run 2 Orcas you have to have 2 people that would, most likely, be capable of flying a hulk in the Orcas. So you have now replaced 3 people specialised for hauling skills with 2 people specialised for mining and have reduced the mining capacity of your group.
While I agree Mining Barge V is a bad skill, your comment isn't entirely accurate.
Hulks require Astrogeology V and exhumers III. With the base skills required for an orca the only barge you can fly is a Procurer, which most miners will tell you isn't worth much more than the basis for a skiff.
Quote:
In my mind this is the biggest problem with this ship. Why does the SHIP need the skills to run the gang links when the gang links themselves require the skills?
The skill requirements don't really make sense to me. Yes, it's a mining support ship but it's essentially a hauler that can run gang links. The gang links require all the relevant skills to use, why should the ship also require it?
- A carrier can fit warfare links but dos not require the warfare leadership skills.
- A Rorqual can fit the gang links and does not require mining director.
I understand that the training time for this ship needs to be reasonably significant but for those people that have trained to be good at hauling to not be able to switch to this ship without training mining barge 5 and mining director first seems a little unusual.
I totally agree with this and have stated it several times. The orca is a ship, it should require ship skills. Obviously to do anything usefull with the ship you will want to train the module skills but they shouldn't be required. |
Eli Grahm
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Posted - 2008.10.27 03:53:00 -
[425]
What happend to it it was on the test server and with the last update its gone, is the ship still going to be tested and hopefully released???? |
Maglorre
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Posted - 2008.10.27 03:53:00 -
[426]
Edited by: Maglorre on 27/10/2008 03:53:41
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Hulks require Astrogeology V and exhumers III. With the base skills required for an orca the only barge you can fly is a Procurer, which most miners will tell you isn't worth much more than the basis for a skiff.
Yeah, that's true, Exhumers 3 is fairly negligible but Astro 5 is a fairly significant SP cost. |
Pastor Blew
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Posted - 2008.10.27 04:36:00 -
[427]
Nice Video of the Orca
Orca - Industrial Command Ship
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:10:00 -
[428]
Edited by: Clansworth on 27/10/2008 06:10:19 I belive part of the problem here is the skill arrangement for these capital and subcapital ships (industrial and otherwise). In theory, the Orca SHOULD use a similar set of skills as teh Rorqual, however, the pre-reqs of the Capital Industrial Ships skill are entirely too steep. Let's take a look:
Rorqual Skill Prereqs: Capital Industrial Ships I Advanced Spaceship Command V Spaceship Command V Mining Barge V Astrogeology III Science IV Mining IV Industry V Capital Ships II Advanced Spaceship Command V Spaceship Command V Capital Ships II Advanced Spaceship Command V Spaceship Command V Jump Drive Operation I Navigation V Warp Drive Operation V Navigation I Scienve V
This is quite redundant on multiple levels, and its setup is part of why the Orca required a new skill. I am instead proposing a new skill be made to replace the Capital industrial Ships AND the Industrial Command Ships skills. This new skill would be called Advanced Industrial Ships. Some changes to other skills would also be required to make this work. I'll outline the changes here:
1. Add skill Advanced Industrial Ships with prereqs of Advanced Spaceship Command I and Industry V. 2. Move Jump Drive Operation I into a Secondary requirement for the Capital Ships skill (currently, all ships requiring the Capital Ships skill require jump Drives for movement anyways) 3. Change Rorqual requirements to Advanced Industrial Ships I, Capital Ships II, and Mining Director I. 4. Change Orca requirements to Advanced Industrial Ships I, and Mining Director I.
The new reqs for the Rorqual would look like this: Advanced Industrial Ships I Advanced Spaceship Command I Spaceship Command V Mining Director I Mining Foreman V Leadership I Capital Ships II Advanced Spaceship Command V Spaceship Command V Jump Drive Operation I Navigation V Warp Drive Operation V Navigation I Scienve V
The Orca pre-reqs would be similar: Advanced Industrial Ships I Advanced Spaceship Command I Spaceship Command V Mining Director I Mining Foreman V Leadership I
This doesn't change much for existing ships, but it opens up the skill sets for more advanced industrial ships (both capital and sub-capital) to be implemented, without convoluting the skill arrangement any further. For instance, an SMA-centric Advanced industrial Ship could be developed using the AIS skill, wihtout the secondary Mining Director requiremnt, as it would not be a minin-op centric ship. The same could be true for a simpler Cargo centric ship (a slightly roomier orca without the mining/tractoring abilities).
This could even be used for some Racial based AIS's. Perhaps a Minmatar refinery ship, that requires AIS I, Minmatar Industrial V, and Refinery Efficiency III. A Caldari research/survey ship (bonuses to hacking/salvage/archeology, etc), that could require AIS I, Caldar industrial V, and Astrometrics III. You get the idea. Basically, I'm trying to decouple the ROLE skill (like Mining Barge/Diretor/Foreman, etc) from the Spaceship Command Skills. |
Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:24:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Maglorre Except it doesn't put more miners in the field. To run 2 Orcas you have to have 2 people that would, most likely, be capable of flying a hulk in the Orcas. So you have now replaced 3 people specialised for hauling skills with 2 people specialised for mining and have reduced the mining capacity of your group.
Replacing 1 command ship and 2 hauler pilots with 1 industrial-command ship and 1 hauler pilot... wouldn't that mean you have freed up one pilot from hauling so they can fly a Hulk instead?
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McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 08:54:00 -
[430]
Edited by: McFly on 27/10/2008 09:03:10 Edit: Orca back on SiSi, they went back to how everything was it looks like
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.10.27 10:06:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Mara Rinn Replacing 1 command ship and 2 hauler pilots with 1 industrial-command ship and 1 hauler pilot... wouldn't that mean you have freed up one pilot from hauling so they can fly a Hulk instead?
Only if the hauler for some reason also trained to Hulk. In which case he should have been in a hulk anyway, I'd think. |
McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 11:06:00 -
[432]
Slightly annoying bit is most people that could fly this and would then train for the mindlink could also go the other route and train their way into a Hulk adding more to the mining operation than the Orca will. I mean I love the orca and plan on getting one for my weakest mining character (no Mining Upgrades V and Exhumers only at 4) But even still unless it's a very large op the Orca wont be bringing more to the table than even an additional covetor. I'm not sure what the math is but I've been hearing the Orca is only beneficial if there are more than 5 Hulks running in the op.
I would think it would be more efficient to have a freighter coming to the orca, loading up, and then Safing in a pos or back in station as the best plan. And sadly as of yet that doesn't work on SiSi. I'm looking at where I have a pilot that's been giving bonuses in his vulture. But he's never trained for a barge. So those people that have Bonus pilots or alts that can't fly a barge are going to have to train for the barge they aren't going to be using.
Some other things I've noted, a lot of people have been suggesting Transport Ships as an alternate skill to be required. I disagree with that on a couple of different levels. First it's a T2 Ship Skill, no T1 Ships have ever required a T2 Ship Skill to fly.
Oh and here's one I really like... "All the macro miners are gonna use it." Okay for those of u who understand the macrominer and how they work this ship isn't gonna do much for them. First if they do use Mining Drones, ok nifty, but Mining Drones Idle after they pop a roid (which doesn't take long in high sec.) So best scenario is put 1 mining drone on 1 individual roid and check every once in awhile to see if it popped. Rinse Repeat. But yield is crap. It's just like running lvl 4's in a domi, except u'd have to put 1 drone on 5 targets and come back and etc.
Macro Miner's are not AFK Miners, there's a difference. People who load up a Badger II with a Miner II and expanders, and sit on veld roid all day are AFK Miners. Macro Miners will prefer to use a fully skilled Hulk for the maximum isk/hour ratio.
Now I'm sure there are programmers out there that will come up with a way to MacroMine with the Orca, but it's gonna be ridiculous slow. I mean when u think about it really, mining drones suck for yield (even T2 with the rigs) you would honestly pull more ore with a Miner II on a badger.
From my experimenting on SiSi with the Orca it seems like it will take about 4-5 loads to consume a high sec belt. Based on where i tested with 2 hulks running. I stripped down a few belts in Black Rise, and that's about the average Orca Loads (88km3 still training the links up on sisi).
I've tried a few different things, and if ur hauling in system to a station/pos. It's not to rough losing the links and bonuses for a minute. But I think most people will still have the hauler fleet running mainly because it doesn't take a lot for a new player to train industrial up a few lvls and bring their race's hauler to the belt. Hauler's are less skill intensive, much cheaper and open to younger pilots, so The Orca Holding Platform (Jet Can) seems to be the most likely operation. |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:14:00 -
[433]
During my ride in to work this morning, I've had an epiphany. (OK, it was cold, so maybe it was a delusion.
Instead of calling this calss an Industrial Command Ship, call it an Industrial Support Ship and have moderate, but extensive requirements. Barge 4, Transport 1, and all the racial industrials at 3. (Keep the rest basically where they are) Larger base cargo (6 cans w/ T2 mods T1 rigs) but no corp hangar. Have the cpability to use 2 gang links. Make it a bit smaller to fit in a Rorq.
Then have the T2 variants: (neither are small enough to fit in a Rorq bay) Industrial Command: Slashed cargo bay, beefed up Corporate Hangar (T2 resists) 1 extra slot at all levels (-1 rig) and allow 3 gang links. Require Director 4, Advanced spaceship command and command ships.
Industrial Transport: Slash both the cargo and Corp hangar, but expand the ship carrying capacity to 4 hulks. All racial industrials to 4, Advanced spaceship command and Transport. Drop 1 High slot and a gang link, but add a medium and low.
The T1 ship would be the JOAT (Jack Of All Trades) while the T2 specializes, just like they should. (T2s to be added at a later date. The T1 shouldn't be too dificult to get into, other than being costly, while the T2s are SP intensive but fill what many think are needed roles.
What do you think - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Flixer
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:24:00 -
[434]
I like the t1 t2 ideas but not the thing with removing the corp hangar... thats one of the things what this ship is for lol.. |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:31:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Maglorre
Except it doesn't put more miners in the field. To run 2 Orcas you have to have 2 people that would, most likely, be capable of flying a hulk in the Orcas. So you have now replaced 3 people specialised for hauling skills with 2 people specialised for mining and have reduced the mining capacity of your group.
Discussing the skills to use the ship is slightly different that discussing what the ship will allow to happen. Again, using my own experiences in larger mining operations, most people flew out there in Hulks, with several lesser vessels. Those lesser ship's pilots, for the most part had not trained to the larger industrials, so just to keep up, a hulk pilot would have to stay in Indys (usually me ) just to keep up. (With the added mining bonus from the ship, it will be worse. Our missions would have benefitted greatly by sacrificing one Hulk for an Orca and 2 retrievers.
Originally by: Maglorre
In my mind this is the biggest problem with this ship. Why does the SHIP need the skills to run the gang links when the gang links themselves require the skills?
...
I understand that the training time for this ship needs to be reasonably significant but for those people that have trained to be good at hauling to not be able to switch to this ship without training mining barge 5 and mining director first seems a little unusual. {/quote]
QFT. Chronitis moving the requirements to Director 1 doesn't make much sense. (This is a T1 ship after all, no matter what the ship class name is) Barge 5 is also a stretch. I can understand the Barge skill, just not to that level.
Since this is primarily a hauler, but not race specific, add a requirement of all racial industrial skills, and drop the Barge level. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:40:00 -
[436]
so I finaly had a look at the ship ...
Current skill prereqs are OK from my point of view. I intend to use the ship as a cargo ship mostly while flysing in empire ... good capacity, able to carry ships, decent EHP.
Now I think it needs about 550km3 ship maintenance bay. With 400km3 I cannot store a single assembled battleship inside ... with 550km3 I can get one assembled and one packaged spare inside.
Also I'd prefer one more low slot for hull/armor expansion. |
Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:19:00 -
[437]
Look on the bright side of life, CCP is not making you train Astro 5 and Barge 5 like. Covy :)
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Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.27 15:13:00 -
[438]
Originally by: McFly
Oh and here's one I really like... "All the macro miners are gonna use it." Okay for those of u who understand the macrominer and how they work this ship isn't gonna do much for them. First if they do use Mining Drones, ok nifty, but Mining Drones Idle after they pop a roid (which doesn't take long in high sec.) So best scenario is put 1 mining drone on 1 individual roid and check every once in awhile to see if it popped. Rinse Repeat. But yield is crap. It's just like running lvl 4's in a domi, except u'd have to put 1 drone on 5 targets and come back and etc.
Actually, there is a way that macros might be able to use this ship. The ice miners jetcan and the Orcas tractor and haul. (look for a white can from established fleet, tractor until close, empty can, go to Station, empty hold, return to belt, repeat.)
Macro miners shouldn't be a basis against providing a worthwile vessel for the legitimate players, though. (But don't try and go over the top like adding extra strip miners.)
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crschlink
F.T.S.L.
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Posted - 2008.10.27 16:09:00 -
[439]
Having scrolled through all 16 pages of this post I have yet to see an answer as to this:
1.Will the Orca be able to go into missions? 2.If they are allowed to go through acceleration gates, at which mission level will they be allowed in?
Reason for the questions: There are asteroids in them there missions and barges/exhumers need their SCICS.
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Xynomorphine
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Posted - 2008.10.27 16:55:00 -
[440]
I looked at the Orca stats in the test server and the link here, nice ship but is still lacking I think (3 high, 3 mid, 2 low) should be more like (4 high, 4 mid, 2 low) the reason for this is to have some ability to at least sheild tank rats hence the 4 mid slots and the 4 high slots that is for one tractor and the 3 mining gang mods, as for the role bonus you should at least be able to run 3 mining gang mods all at once and not just the one. |
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McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 16:56:00 -
[441]
Originally by: Xynomorphine I looked at the Orca stats in the test server and the link here, nice ship but is still lacking I think (3 high, 3 mid, 2 low) should be more like (4 high, 4 mid, 2 low) the reason for this is to have some ability to at least sheild tank rats hence the 4 mid slots and the 4 high slots that is for one tractor and the 3 mining gang mods, as for the role bonus you should at least be able to run 3 mining gang mods all at once and not just the one.
It's been answered only 5 or 6 times, but it is a long thread. Yes it can go through acceleration gates, it's not a capital. |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.27 17:17:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Flixer I like the t1 t2 ideas but not the thing with removing the corp hangar... thats one of the things what this ship is for lol..
Thanks for the feedback.
Originally by: Thorson Wiles
Industrial Transport: Slash both the cargo and Corp hangar, but expand the ship carrying capacity to 4 hulks. All racial industrials to 4, Advanced spaceship command and Transport. Drop 1 High slot and a gang link, but add a medium and low.
This was for the T2 specialization of moving a quantity of rigged ships. (What do you need to haul rigged ships, a corp hangar or a maintenance bay, I'm not sure but from comments sounds like the Bay). For a moble command and resupply, thats what my idea of the Indy Cmd Ship comes in. (Possibly pull the bay completely from that and buff the corp hangar even more.)
Just like a Frigate is a general purpose craft, Assault Frigates and Interceptors are tuned to their jobs. Same here. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.27 17:55:00 -
[443]
Two ideas that have been presented that I agree with:
Remove the leadership requirement. For those who argue that command ships require leadership skills, it goes back to the T1 vs T2 debate. The Orca is still a T1 ship and leadership skills are only required on the T2 ships.
Change the name of the Mining Barge skill "ORE Ships" (or something similar). It becomes a required skill for flying any ORE vessel.
I like the idea of reducing the cargohold and increasing the corporate hold. I also like the re-configuring the hold idea, although it seems to make more sense to make it happen through rigs (semi-permanent modification).
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Black Naks
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Posted - 2008.10.27 19:09:00 -
[444]
where can i buy couple of these??? |
Deacon Ix
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.27 19:57:00 -
[445]
OK I have read all this and have a few comments,
The Orca in its current form does what it is meant to do very well. I like it. In the Hi Sec mining ops I will be running I intend to field 2 Orcas, one in the belt running gang mods and tanking the belt Rats (with 3 mid slots you can fit a good enough tank to hold off 0.5 sec Belt rats indefinitely) and the other hauling.
For those who would rather have the Orca Pilots in Hulks, do the sums, a Skilled Booster pilot will add over 33% to the yield of each miner, so as soon as you get more than 3 or more Hulks it pays to have the toon as a booster rather than a fourth miner.
One Orca hauling will take the place of at least 3 Skilled Iteron mk V Pilots (Itties will hold ~40km3 maxed out, the Orca hold will easily hold 90km3 before using the Corp hanger array)
That being said I would not be an Eve player if I did not think some changes would be good,
1.As previously stated rename the Mining Barge skill to ORE ships and treat it like a racial ship skill (and be thankful it is not rank 8)
2.Increase the Corp hanger array (the cargo hold would be nice bigger too...), if you feel that breaks it, have it so that the ship has a special ability and Ore takes up less space in it.
3.Be able to fit more than 2 Hulks in the SMA, again if you REALLY REALLY donÆt want BS to be put in it give it a special ability to compress Industrial ships...
4.Make it so it can be put in a Rorqual.
I would love to see some Ninja Null Sec and Low sec mining ops, where a Rorqual jumps in, puts up a small POS, unloads an Orca and a Fleet of Hulks. The Rorqual Deploys and the Hulks mine and the Orca hauls (the TB bonus will be very useful). The scheme needs some fine tuning but it would be fun.
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.10.27 19:58:00 -
[446]
Took me a while to read all of this, but it was worth it.
1. L4 mission runners who use rigged CSs might still be able to use this to stage their forays.
2. Its a pity that the orca requires mining barge 5. This sounds like the kind of ship that a combat pilot can use at a mining op and still be useful.
3. About bloody time there was a ship available that can move other ships around, even if it is just BCs and smaller. Still cuts down on trips around empire space. I love the concept, and I'll get it when I can. |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.27 20:40:00 -
[447]
Edited by: Kalderion Mar on 27/10/2008 20:41:20
Originally by: McFly Slightly annoying bit is most people that could fly this and would then train for the mindlink could also go the other route and train their way into a Hulk adding more to the mining operation than the Orca will. I mean I love the orca and plan on getting one for my weakest mining character (no Mining Upgrades V and Exhumers only at 4) But even still unless it's a very large op the Orca wont be bringing more to the table than even an additional covetor. I'm not sure what the math is but I've been hearing the Orca is only beneficial if there are more than 5 Hulks running in the op.
I would think it would be more efficient to have a freighter coming to the orca, loading up, and then Safing in a pos or back in station as the best plan. And sadly as of yet that doesn't work on SiSi. I'm looking at where I have a pilot that's been giving bonuses in his vulture. But he's never trained for a barge. So those people that have Bonus pilots or alts that can't fly a barge are going to have to train for the barge they aren't going to be using.
Oh and here's one I really like... "All the macro miners are gonna use it." Okay for those of u who understand the macrominer and how they work this ship isn't gonna do much for them. First if they do use Mining Drones, ok nifty, but Mining Drones Idle after they pop a roid (which doesn't take long in high sec.) So best scenario is put 1 mining drone on 1 individual roid and check every once in awhile to see if it popped. Rinse Repeat. But yield is crap. It's just like running lvl 4's in a domi, except u'd have to put 1 drone on 5 targets and come back and etc.
Macro Miner's are not AFK Miners, there's a difference. People who load up a Badger II with a Miner II and expanders, and sit on veld roid all day are AFK Miners. Macro Miners will prefer to use a fully skilled Hulk for the maximum isk/hour ratio.
Now I'm sure there are programmers out there that will come up with a way to MacroMine with the Orca, but it's gonna be ridiculous slow. I mean when u think about it really, mining drones suck for yield (even T2 with the rigs) you would honestly pull more ore with a Miner II on a badger.
From my experimenting on SiSi with the Orca it seems like it will take about 4-5 loads to consume a high sec belt. Based on where i tested with 2 hulks running. I stripped down a few belts in Black Rise, and that's about the average Orca Loads (88km3 still training the links up on sisi).
I've tried a few different things, and if ur hauling in system to a station/pos. It's not to rough losing the links and bonuses for a minute. But I think most people will still have the hauler fleet running mainly because it doesn't take a lot for a new player to train industrial up a few lvls and bring their race's hauler to the belt. Hauler's are less skill intensive, much cheaper and open to younger pilots, so The Orca Holding Platform (Jet Can) seems to be the most likely operation.
Im in with McFly, this post more or less sums up what I was going to say. You have to remember, currently with a maxed Hulk pilot with implants and a command ship, the yield is in the neighborhood of 1963m3 per beam per cycle,(yes my alt can!) if we have four hulks runing, and there is a single jump to get to a station, we must run 4 haulers or fall behind. Adding the Orca, will bump the yield to somewhere around 2061m3 per beam per cycle. Some say, use two orca's.. ok, yes that will work with one jump.. however, if you take that one jump further, to try to get to the better belts two jumps from a station, you will again fall behind with the two orca op. with each added jump, you will obviously fall behind further and further. to my mind, allowing the freighter to acces the orca, or at least in some maner allowing it (the Orca) to reconfigure through mods or rigs would allow us to access those systems.
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Black Naks
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Posted - 2008.10.27 22:05:00 -
[448]
Nice ship but few changes would be nice. it is afterall ''Designed as a "sub capital" logistical ship with a mining command focus''
-biger cargo hold up to 100k m3 with extenders so it would be ''logistical'' (without ore compresion) -4x high slots so it can fit gang mods and tractor so it would be a ''command ship'' (or 4 strip miners if you are a solo miner) -minimum 4 med slots -minimum 4 low slots for extenders -100m3 drone bay minimum/ 75 Mbit/sec bandwidth (5 mining drones and 5 meedium) -maintenance bay is ok, but 500k m3 would be better -corp hangar min 50000m3 |
Blev Oblix
Gallente ARK-CORP SATRAPY
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Posted - 2008.10.27 22:34:00 -
[449]
The ship is sweet, sweet, sweet as is.
OK, there's a few initial design blips but that can be sorted. Please ignore all (most of) the complaints.
Don't you have the skills to fly it? Here's some news - that's what happens with any ship in Eve. So skill up. Whining about the mining skills necessary? Be careful what you wish for or you'll be ending up with a mini-Rorqual situation where the pilots came from cap ships and not mining. TBH, I don't care about consistency in skill allocation, the current requirements suit it fine.
Not big enough to lump some BSs around? So use a different ship. Altho' long may everybody think they can fly a BS - I make my money selling BSs to pilots who can barely fly a dessie.
Defence? It's (supposedly) got shields 3x bigger than a hulk used with decent shields and shield skills. And its got a drone bay. And if you're out there with a gang of miners, they've got drones too. Or carry a BC/Cruiser/HAC/etc. (And is that really 46,000 structure HP?)
Shortage of slots? Since when has any ship in Eve had enough slots? Compromise in ship set-up is part and parcel of Eve.
Too small to build it? Who said anybody can build any ship? If you can't build it, buy one. We'll be building them*** and at a reasonable cost - supply the mins and it'll be cheaper still. And I suspect that we won't be able to keep up with demand once peeps realise the benefits of flying one with a skilled up pilot.
And no ore compression either, please.
___________________ *** My personal opinion only and not binding on my Corps. Altho' .....
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.10.27 22:38:00 -
[450]
Just for curiosity's sake, running the basic skills in evemon for my dedicated combat pilot to fly an orca will take 40 days, starting at mining and industry 1. That is with all learning at 4, and plus 4 implants. He already flies Commandships.
Skills trained:
Mining 4 Astrogeology 3 Industry 5 Mining Barge 5 Mining Foreman 5 Mining Director 1 |
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Borgholio
Minmatar Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 23:05:00 -
[451]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
What are these plans exactly? |
Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.27 23:11:00 -
[452]
I personally like the idea somone put out a few days back to give the orca a bonus that reduces the size of ore and maybe minerals too.
That way it can hold quite a bit per trip when hauling for a mining operation, but for general shipping a freighter will still be more usefull. |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 23:57:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid I personally like the idea somone put out a few days back to give the orca a bonus that reduces the size of ore and maybe minerals too.
That way it can hold quite a bit per trip when hauling for a mining operation, but for general shipping a freighter will still be more usefull.
The size of an item is one of its attributes, like its damage/hitpoints. To change an items attributes, it has to be what CCP calls singleton (= not stackable).
So to change the item volume by putting it into the cargohold alone, you would either have to unstack your 20'000 veldspar into singlew units, or have a fairly sophisticated SQL trigger in place that replaces the veldspar with a brandnew item-type.
Prism X could probably explain why both options aren't viable. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.28 01:57:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Borgholio
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
What are these plans exactly?
Yesplzwnt2know. |
Ryuga VonRhaiden
Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.10.28 02:06:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Thorson Wiles
Instead of calling this calss an Industrial Command Ship, call it an Industrial Support Ship and have moderate, but extensive requirements. Barge 4, Transport 1, and all the racial industrials at 3. (Keep the rest basically where they are) Larger base cargo (6 cans w/ T2 mods T1 rigs) but no corp hangar. Have the cpability to use 2 gang links. Make it a bit smaller to fit in a Rorq.
There is quite a lot of impossible things here: 1) You can have AT MOST 3 prerequisites. Barge, Transport and 4 racial indies is 6. 2) As outlined before, Transport is a T2 skill and can not be a pre-req for a T1 ship. 3) Corp hangar is meant to stop canflippers and ore stealers, by removing it the ship becomes just a bigger indy, not a corporate mining ops support ship... |
Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.28 03:12:00 -
[456]
Originally by: McFly Slightly annoying bit is most people that could fly this and would then train for the mindlink could also go the other route and train their way into a Hulk adding more to the mining operation than the Orca will. I mean I love the orca and plan on getting one for my weakest mining character (no Mining Upgrades V and Exhumers only at 4) But even still unless it's a very large op the Orca wont be bringing more to the table than even an additional covetor. I'm not sure what the math is but I've been hearing the Orca is only beneficial if there are more than 5 Hulks running in the op.
The dodgy math works like this: Orca fleet bonus is 25% (or thereabouts), therefore having four Hulks plus an Orca gives you the equivalent rock-munching power of five Hulks.
The dodgy math ignores thing like travel time for hauling. A Hulk fitted for maximum ore munching power will have 8k m3 of cargo bay, and fill this in six minutes. A Hulk fitted for maximum cargo will have about 13k m3 and fill this in about twelve minutes. After that period of time has elapsed, the Hulk would then have to leave the belt, warp to station (or worse, to a jump gate, then warp in that system to the station), dock, unload, undock, warp back to the belt, retarget asteroids and finally start mining again. The shortest I've managed to do this in the same system is about 2 minutes turnaround time.
So let's say my Hulk is rigged for maximum rock-munching power, and fills its hold in 6 minutes. I'm losing 25% of my time to hauling (8 minutes total cycle). If I had an alt flying an Orca doing the hauling, I'd have an immediate gain of 33% ore per hour (an extra 2 minutes of productive time on top of the 6). Then assume my alt is trained for the appropriate command links, I'd gain an extra 25% on top of that, while the Orca is in the belt. The longer it takes my Hulk to haul back to station and return to the belt, the more benefit I gain from having someone else there to haul for me.
So according to my own dodgy math, having an Orca is just as good as having a third Hulk. The efficiency of having someone doing the hauling is more important than having another ship capable of mining once you have more than two mining ships in the gang. The further you have to haul the ore, the more haulers you need. Only when you arrive at the point of having a hauler sitting in the belt empty for more than three minutes should you start thinking about switching haulers to miners. If you have full cans waiting to be hauled, you need more haulers.
The only drawback of the Orca is that it can't actually mine itself. At least my alt's Iteron can mount a mining laser. For my two-ship operation, I could have my hauler mining in a Retriever until we've filled three cans, then she warps back to station to get the Orca, sweep up the cans, head back to station and brings the Retriever back out. I'd be more efficient without even training to use the command links.
Time to train my hauling alt to fly an Orca! |
Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2008.10.28 07:42:00 -
[457]
To bad it cant carry my rigged hulk AND Rigged Transport Ship :(
And for the mine lovers; maybe ask CCP for 1 strip miner hardpoint :P (He does have things underneath wich looks like turret hardpoint thingy`s.)
And yes some different variations of the Orca would be cool, This one, a special Ship carrier (2 BS max), Heavy Transport (JF size cargo? Without cargo bonus.). Industrials get some nice toys and the PvP/PvE guys are getting a nice Ship transporter.) - Dude where is my Charon? - |
Xynomorphine
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:08:00 -
[458]
Originally by: McFly
Originally by: Xynomorphine I looked at the Orca stats in the test server and the link here, nice ship but is still lacking I think (3 high, 3 mid, 2 low) should be more like (4 high, 4 mid, 2 low) the reason for this is to have some ability to at least sheild tank rats hence the 4 mid slots and the 4 high slots that is for one tractor and the 3 mining gang mods, as for the role bonus you should at least be able to run 3 mining gang mods all at once and not just the one.
It's been answered only 5 or 6 times, but it is a long thread. Yes it can go through acceleration gates, it's not a capital.
You have misunderstood my gripe, I know it not a capital ship but still should have the role bonous of a command ship for gang mods be able to run all 3 at once. |
Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:07:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Dr Prometheus on 28/10/2008 10:07:57
Originally by: Xynomorphine
Originally by: McFly
Originally by: Xynomorphine I looked at the Orca stats in the test server and the link here, nice ship but is still lacking I think (3 high, 3 mid, 2 low) should be more like (4 high, 4 mid, 2 low) the reason for this is to have some ability to at least sheild tank rats hence the 4 mid slots and the 4 high slots that is for one tractor and the 3 mining gang mods, as for the role bonus you should at least be able to run 3 mining gang mods all at once and not just the one.
It's been answered only 5 or 6 times, but it is a long thread. Yes it can go through acceleration gates, it's not a capital.
You have misunderstood my gripe, I know it not a capital ship but still should have the role bonous of a command ship for gang mods be able to run all 3 at once.
It will according to CCP guys on SiSi the current one is bugged it should handle 3 from te start. *Dont shoot my pod if i am wrong though.
- Dude where is my Charon? - |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:52:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Ryuga VonRhaiden
There is quite a lot of impossible things here: 1) You can have AT MOST 3 prerequisites. Barge, Transport and 4 racial indies is 6. 2) As outlined before, Transport is a T2 skill and can not be a pre-req for a T1 ship. 3) Corp hangar is meant to stop canflippers and ore stealers, by removing it the ship becomes just a bigger indy, not a corporate mining ops support ship...
1) I did not know there was a hard limit of 3 skills required. (First impossible thing.)
- How about Barge 4, Spaceship Command 4 and the new skill.
2) meh, don't know what I was thinking there since I made the arguement against higher lvel skills for T1 ships. (Not impossible, just a mistake)
3) As for the corp hangar, making the T1 ship a larger industrial ... this ship was designed by CCP to 'combat' ore stealers? First I heard of that. It was designed to supportmining operations, with the 2 gang links, the mining link boost and tractor, it does what it was stated was the design goal. (Not impossible, just something that you don't agree with)[/*]
The T1 ship is not the best for at what it does, but what high-sec T1 ship is the best at what they can do? The T2smove the ships into the desired specializations. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
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Thevlyn
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Posted - 2008.10.28 14:40:00 -
[461]
for those of you who are so bad at math, with director 5, mindling implant , specalist 4, and just the duration fleet mod. You get 21% duration reduction and 15% yield. if you add these to a speadsheet, together they give an overall bonus of 44% more ore per hulk. now, with specialist 5 and command 5, your talking anoghter 5-10% overall bonus. this means, 2 hulks and an orca pilot skilled for leadership = 3 hulks. to get the figures, take a base mining yield without a leader, find the ore/hr, then do the same with the leader and divide the 2 answers. you gain 44% more ore per hour with the leader before an orca is added.
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:55:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals.
Yes. This solo/small gang player isn't very interested in gang links at all.
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NetBlaise 1
Minmatar Unstable Reaction Inc. North Domain Defense Forces
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:22:00 -
[463]
Wow I can't believe everything I'm seeing here. Folks this Ship was made for miners. The skills required to fly the ship is dead on. It's a Tech 1 ship so it doesn't need alot of skills to train. Every skill that is require to fly the ship just about all miners have most of the skills already. That tells you already who the ship was made for. Also when it comes to folks saying that the skill set for the Orca should have other support skills to fly it. Do you need support skills to be able to fly a frig/BC/etc, no. I can tell you all this right now, miners will be using this ship as a extension to their Hulks cargo space until they have the skills to use the support items (Gang items, Cap tractor, etc). We miners have been waiting for something to else to train for the will help them do their job better. it's been a long time coming but it's here now. The orca is a great ship. I've seen it in action and it rocks at what it does. It could use more cargo space but we all want more of everything.
CCP you did a great job on the Orca but i would love to have more cargo space :). you can even make Hull Upgrades 4 not 5 a pre require, lol....
Sorry for all the mis-spelling. I can't spell for crap. I am good a Math and binary numbers :)....
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Checkis Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:24:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Anig Browl
Originally by: Jason Edwards Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals.
Yes. This solo/small gang player isn't very interested in gang links at all.
Then I think you are looking to get the wrong ship - this is a mining op support ship, or actually a SCICS (Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship) Personally, I would want to see higher leadership requirements, and more basic minimum skills required to fly this ship, paying off with even better bonuses for the fleet.
Besides, it feels a little like that just because this is a new ship, everyone feel they should be flying it, and thus complaining about the requirements - it's a pretty specialized ship, and it should stay that way.
//Checkis Khan //Believer in more specialization and less generalization |
Checkis Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:27:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Checkis Khan
Originally by: Anig Browl
Originally by: Jason Edwards Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals.
Yes. This solo/small gang player isn't very interested in gang links at all.
Then I think you are looking to get the wrong ship - this is a mining op support ship, or actually a SCICS (Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship) Personally, I would want to see higher leadership requirements, and more basic minimum skills required to fly this ship, paying off with even better bonuses for the fleet.
Besides, it feels a little like that just because this is a new ship, everyone feel they should be flying it, and thus complaining about the requirements - it's a pretty specialized ship, and it should stay that way.
//Checkis Khan //Believer in more specialization and less generalization
Oh, and then don't forget - T3 is about to come out - that could open up for posibilities of T3 haulers, T3 Barges, and so on... even better, even bigger, and even higher requirements? :)
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:36:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Checkis Khan Then I think you are looking to get the wrong ship - this is a mining op support ship, or actually a SCICS (Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship) Personally, I would want to see higher leadership requirements, and more basic minimum skills required to fly this ship, paying off with even better bonuses for the fleet.
Well, since it is the only new ship, we all want a piece
Quote: Oh, and then don't forget - T3 is about to come out - that could open up for posibilities of T3 haulers, T3 Barges, and so on... even better, even bigger, and even higher requirements? :)
'About to?' Surely, 'next year'.
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:59:00 -
[467]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh The size of an item is one of its attributes, like its damage/hitpoints. To change an items attributes, it has to be what CCP calls singleton (= not stackable).
So to change the item volume by putting it into the cargohold alone, you would either have to unstack your 20'000 veldspar into singlew units, or have a fairly sophisticated SQL trigger in place that replaces the veldspar with a brandnew item-type.
Indeed, modifying the attribute of the item itself is a non-starter. Hacking the capacity calculation of the cargohold itself would be a more viable option, though still not great:
Right now, the check on how much cargo space you have would look something like this:
sum(ItemVolume*ItemCount)
You could potentially hax it instead be something like:
sum(ItemVolume*ItemCount*ShipModifier), where ShipModifier would have to be looked up from the ship's attributes and cross-referenced to the item types or groups to which it applied.
While do-able, this would end up being an added complexity to the whole inventory system, which is why I don't think it would be a desirable solution.
More likely is the idea of an "ore hold" separate from your main cargo hold. Applying a restriction on what can be put in a hold is far easier than trying to hax the properties of things once they are inside. And once you have a hold that can only accept your desired items (ore in this case), you can make that cargo hold bigger instead of haxing the volume of the items down, without risk of unbalancing it when hauling other items. |
Fyzikz
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Posted - 2008.10.28 20:11:00 -
[468]
Why does this ship required Mining Barge 5, that is the biggest reason Id never use it. It can't mine but requires a major prereq for a hulk. This means your essentially taking a hulk pilot out of his almost 1800 m^3/min ship (without considering mining links or drones) to fly what is essentially a poor combination of an ity 5 and a command ship. I dont know how the devs see the game, but every op Ive been on the miners mine and you get a combat guy to run the command ship for the leadership bonus/links. This ship is only going to hurt high sec mining ops if it is used for its intended purpose. Change the mining barge requirement. mining 4 and mining barge 5 are unnessary for its intended role or give it the ability to mine (which would obviously overpower the ship).
I see why alot of people are asking for more ship maint bay, but its not intended to be a freighter its intended to be mining support for high sec. So... make it hold a belts worth of ore and run 3 links and a tractor. Tanking and killing high sec rats hulks can do and this ships base shield and medium drones should be able to handle just fine as well. Thats all the industry guys have been asking for. No need to make it capable of low sec ops.. thats what a rorq is for. |
Sgmorris
Caldari Ratio Decidendi Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.28 22:21:00 -
[469]
Command Industrial Good's and bad's
Ok i log on to the test server last night and found this ship is killer Looking for one thing.
Good's- 1) Corp hanger 2) Ship array 3) fitting array 4) Drone bay 5) 3 high slots 3 mid slots 2 low slots [ 3 ] rig slots
Bad's- (2) Ship hanger can only fit 2 hulks or 2 mecks or 1 Bager or 1 transport ship - wish it would fit 2 hulks or one hulk and a transport or 2 transport's
Her speed = crap smaller then a Freighter,Jump Freighter,Cap. Industrial yet it looks to go slower then all 3, geting up to speed to warp as well i found to be grrr come on baby move.. wish this would be twinked up to be the crane version ov her big sister the Rorqual
as i am a cadi pilot put it like this ;) Rorqual = the bustard Orca = the fast Crane (blockade-runner) 8)
over all this is 100% empire ship any one bringing this to 0.0 is out of there mind Rorqual is still your 0.0 platform empire all the way i am still geting one ;) just saying i dont see much use for her in 0.0
your ideas?
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.10.28 22:44:00 -
[470]
Yeah! Sounds like you can fly one on the test server, so could you see what it will fit for combat ships and the like? Hopefully a cs will fit plus change :)
I am one of those who will be using it mostly for transport purposes through empire.
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Signati
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Posted - 2008.10.29 01:48:00 -
[471]
Edited by: Signati on 29/10/2008 01:53:13 I dont see the barge skills as an issue. Yes, if I fly this ship I wont be in my mining barge, but you know what? I wont fly this ship unless I have 3-4+ other hulk/maki pilots with me.
That way, we lose 1 barge, but gain a 25% boost.
Equals out with 4 hulks.
Any more than 4 hulks, and we are kicking arse.
The command pilot who used to run the links can switch over to a t1 hauler and help move it form the orca to the station, or train for a t1 mining barge and tag along in a retriever.
anyone who thinks that its gonna hurt high sec mining needs to hush up. If you dont wanna use it, then (incoming shocker) DONT USE IT.
I still would like to see a bonus to the ship something like:
Role: 50% reduction to the volume of Mining barges place in the orca's maintenance bay.
...ok... would need better wording but you get my drift? would be nice to haul 4 hulks in it, while still not allowing it to haul BS's.
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.29 03:34:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Firewolf21 Yeah! Sounds like you can fly one on the test server, so could you see what it will fit for combat ships and the like? Hopefully a cs will fit plus change :)
I am one of those who will be using it mostly for transport purposes through empire.
BC's and Command Ships are in the 200,000m¦ - 260,000m¦ range, so a single one will fit in the Orca (which has 400,000m¦ SMA)Other Industrial Ships: Procurer/Skiff 100,000m¦ Retriever/Mackinaw 150,000m¦ Coveter/Hulk 200,000m¦
Prowler 180,000m¦ Viator 190,000m¦ Crane 195,000m¦ Prorator 200,000m¦ Wreathe 225,000m¦ Sigil 230,000m¦ Hoarder/Iteron 240,000m¦ Iteron Mk II 245,000m¦ Badger/Iteron Mk III 250,000m¦ Mammoth 255,000m¦ Bestower 260,000m¦ Iteron Mk IV 265,000m¦ Badger Mk II 270,000m¦ Iteron Mk V 275,000m¦ Mastadon 285,000m¦ Bustard/Occator 290,000m¦ Impel 300,000m¦ As you can see, a Blockade Runner is the only type of hauler small enough to fit in the Orca next to a single Hulk. Anyone else think this is pretty limited?
POS Personal Storage |
Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.29 06:25:00 -
[473]
It definately needs a bigger maint bay -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Gilgamoth
Eldritch Storm The Matari Consortium
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Posted - 2008.10.29 11:48:00 -
[474]
The alternative is to raise it to 1m m3 but limit it to Industrials and Mining Vessels only.
Regards,
Gil
Live on Eden Underground Radio every Wednesday 19:00 - 21:00 GMT. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.29 12:01:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Gilgamoth The alternative is to raise it to 1m m3 but limit it to Industrials and Mining Vessels only.
Regards,
Gil
That wont happen since CCP wants it to be able to move rigged ships within empire. And about the size as former person talked about I only know that CCP made the size so it wouldn¦t be able to carry Battle Ships. I don't know why though.
I think what this ship lacks most is another role-bonus, since it's a specialized mining-support ship with no jump drive; that the Orca should have a Bonus that makes ore take 50% or even less cargospace when put in its cargo. *I heard something about plans to solve this with several types of cargo in future, as Black Ops will get a special fuel bay, the Orca would get a special ore bay. But I think my suggestion is better when it comes to the Orca. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
Checkis Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.29 19:00:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Gilgamoth The alternative is to raise it to 1m m3 but limit it to Industrials and Mining Vessels only.
Regards,
Gil
I have a problem with this as well... I'd like to be able to bring 2 Hulks, 1 Transport Ship, and a salvaging ship (Destroyer). I would be flying larger combat ships next to it - so, saying "1M m3 SMA limited to industrials and Barges" would absolutely be better, making perfect sense as well. I know that "just because" I use a Dessie for a salvaging boat, isn't gonna place that as an exception, it IS a combat ship after all. Now, making a "Role Bonus: Barges and Industrials take up 50% space", would be great, because then you can still move your industrial ships around, and at the same time, you'd still be able to move non-industrials in it, if you so wish.
And the same concept for minerals - leave the cargo bay the size it is, just make ore (not minerals) take up less space in it.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if the skills requirements grew and it would require graviton physics, Engineering, Logistics, or whatever, to fly, or to activate the Role bonuses, it is a specialized ship, and it shouldn't be something everyone flies "just because it's new"
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LowBridge VII
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Posted - 2008.10.29 19:23:00 -
[477]
Just noticed that you have changed the skill requirments with the Mirror update on SiSi today. You will now need Mining Foreman 5 (up from 3) and Mining Director 1. My question here is why so late into it's deployment has this skill requirement been changed?
thanks,
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Checkis Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.29 19:44:00 -
[478]
Originally by: LowBridge VII Just noticed that you have changed the skill requirments with the Mirror update on SiSi today. You will now need Mining Foreman 5 (up from 3) and Mining Director 1. My question here is why so late into it's deployment has this skill requirement been changed?
thanks,
Erhh... It hasn't been deployed yet. That's why it's on Sisi, to try it out, and make all the last changes and details, to ensure that once it IS deployed, it will be a final product.
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Nalshiga Dshoayo
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Posted - 2008.10.29 20:27:00 -
[479]
the change to mining director is total BS.
mining foreman 3 was ok. 5 is way too high.
mining director is just another useless skill.
CCP has to go back to foreman 3
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Fyzikz
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.29 21:11:00 -
[480]
Edited by: Fyzikz on 29/10/2008 21:11:20 As for me disagreeing with mining barge 5, this ship is designed for high sec ops, which are mostly the forte of the corps that cater to the new players to the game. Many of whom dont have mining barges or hulks so it does hurt your total output to take a hulk pilot out of his ship to boost a bunch of cruisers and frigates and even retrievers. Alot of htee corps use a BC with warfare link 5 and command procs or fleet command ships currently for the mining boosts for and experienced player usually combat. Why learn mining barge to add hauling to that role? and Haulers gain nothing (usually combat guys in t1 indies) have to get minign 4 and barge 5 to add leadership and links to thier mining ops roles?
Let's not forget mention CCP Chronatus saying in his q/a locked forum that he doesn't see the need for all 3 links, the cap one is prtty much useless. For the Rorqual I agree, that level of player has the cap skills, but again the Orca will be for the lower average SP corps where many of htier miners wont have the cap skill and will need the cap reduct to keep up with the laser duration reduct.
Originally by: Nalshiga Dshoayo the change to mining director is total BS.
mining foreman 3 was ok. 5 is way too high.
mining director is just another useless skill.
CCP has to go back to foreman 3
As for this. It is a mining industrial COMMAND ship. Command ships require leadership 5, why wouldn't a mining command ship require the skill to use the links it is designed for?
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.29 21:18:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Fyzikz As for this. It is a mining industrial COMMAND ship. Command ships require leadership 5, why wouldn't a mining command ship require the skill to use the links it is designed for?
Just like the Rorqual. |
Charleen Stillwell
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Posted - 2008.10.29 23:16:00 -
[482]
I like the ship. It has a nice look and the stats seems to be on the right track.
My Humble Suggestions :
1. I would suggest getting rid of the ship's cargo space and make it all corporate hanger space, it's a support ship. Give it something like 200k m3 of corp hanger space and 1000k m3 of ship maintance bay. It would make a great flying corporate hanger and mining support ship, that would encourage group mining in high sec again. Also give it a bonus to ore volume per level, say %10 less volume per level.
2. Give it at least 4 high slots. 3 gang links and a tractor would be very nice. I don't think it needs an ore compressor, weapons, or miners. Or.. If you preferrer instead of 3 gang links it would be nice to have an armor and hull repairer on it to repair ships in your fleet.
3. Give it at least 6 mid slots. Make it a good shield tank, and I would consider taking it to 0.4 or 0.3 space. It would rock as a low sec mining command/support ship.
4. Give it at least 5 low slots, a dmg control, a few cargo expanders and a WCS for low sec, yeah that that would make mining low sec fun.
5. More drone space and bandwidth. Give it a bonus of say +3 mining drones per level, and more drone capacity and bandwidth per level to support them. I would love to have a mining drone carrier, this ship would be a natural for it. Maybe split the drone space up in general space and mining drone space. Give it a large amount for mining drones.
I think the ship is on the right track, I do however feel that it still needs some work.
Thanks, -Charleen Stillwell Prospector / Industrialist
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.10.30 00:10:00 -
[483]
More tank is the wrong way to go, or at least to 6 mids. I guarantee one thing... if the orca is taken to lowsec, it WILL die. It doesn't matter what the tank is. A couple HACs will rip it up just as well as anything else. Hell, I shouldn't really say anything because my main would love to have this on his killboard.
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Signati
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Posted - 2008.10.30 00:31:00 -
[484]
Edited by: Signati on 30/10/2008 00:31:18 Is the cap on the orca being changed? I tested it a few days ago on sisi and it ran a DCII, 2 Invul II's and a Large Sheild booster II, at 60% cap with no cap mods fitted. This would mean, that, if setup for it, it could out tank some BC's.
Now I dont mind that parsey, but when you take into account my low level of cap backup skills atm... seems a tad to high.
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.30 06:09:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Fyzikz As for this. It is a mining industrial COMMAND ship. Command ships require leadership 5, why wouldn't a mining command ship require the skill to use the links it is designed for?
Just like the Rorqual.
and every other command ship in existance -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
King KLoWn
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Posted - 2008.10.30 06:42:00 -
[486]
I say that the Operation Gold Rush plan needs to be Implemented before the Orca is released to stop Macro Miners from using it to their advantage.
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SirWOLFE
Caldari WOLF INDUSTRY
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:17:00 -
[487]
Looks intresting I wonder if this ship is leading to the DROP SHIP mentioned around 6 months ago. A ship capable of resupplying fleets in combat with new ships etc and with jump drives. Do i sense a t2 version with jump drive and bigger space for bs's in cargo?
Sig Removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn ([email protected]) |
Evlyna
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:21:00 -
[488]
gawdmmit stop changing the skill tree of it please. One day I can be in one, the next day I can't.
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B'atou
Gallente RATS Corp Cold Steel Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:59:00 -
[489]
Well, I like the ship as it is. Also the skill Mining Barge 5 doesn't takes a Hulk pilot out of the gang, because it only needs Astrogeology 3. At least, the cargo could be a little bit bigger i think. 3 Hulks will fill it up pretty fast I think. ------------------------------------------- Every winner needs a looser, only idiots need a leader! |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.10.30 13:22:00 -
[490]
no no NO ... not Mining Director ... please CCP put that back to foreman 3.
This ship can be ussed as a genral purpose hauler without any links. I know barge 5 is already a heavy requirement, but director 1 is not needed ...
--- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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Xynomorphine
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Posted - 2008.10.30 13:40:00 -
[491]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Fyzikz As for this. It is a mining industrial COMMAND ship. Command ships require leadership 5, why wouldn't a mining command ship require the skill to use the links it is designed for?
Just like the Rorqual.
and every other command ship in existance
Ive seen this on SiSi and do agree that it is a mining command ship so mining director lvl 1 is a must as it can run 3 x gang mods, Believe in no one, trust in no one, the truth is really out there, keep your friends clode but your enemys even closer. |
Thevlyn
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Posted - 2008.10.30 13:42:00 -
[492]
First, i love this ship. Second, my alt can already fly it, so i give this opinion based off thought and not desire. Mining Director 1 is an excessive requirement for the orca. Please make it conform to other command ships as far as the leadership is concerned. The very fact that you require Director to use the mods is requirment enough to gain the bonus from them. To then add it to the ability to fly the ship is redundent. Also, to give access to this ship as a hualer only, for those currently doing the hauling (which they should be able to access without useless skills aka. high end leadership), give it more basic leadership skills. Barge 5, or as it really should be renamed, ORE ships, is a fine requirement that will already force a normal command pilot to train for this specificlly. Also, ORE Ships as a skill would reduce complaints about Barge skill, as it would make more sense to people stuck on the name. exhumer could = Advanced ORE Ships. Gives you guys alot more flexability imo. Thanks for listening.
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Flixerine
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:04:00 -
[493]
Thought and not desire? wtf? you just want the advantage over other players O.o
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Thevlyn
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:17:00 -
[494]
Edited by: Thevlyn on 30/10/2008 15:19:59 considering i am asking them to remove director and mining forman 5 (being its prereq), as it is too costly and doesnt fit well compared to other command ships. and for many of the people flying it will be useless. i don't see how its helping me more then the general person. As i already stated, i can already fly one. The bonuses that it provides as a command ship should be optional, as many others have stated, no other ships require you to be able to use the mods it can fit in order to get into it. There are plenty of examples given to provide evidence of this.
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:45:00 -
[495]
Originally by: Flixerine Thought and not desire? wtf? you just want the advantage over other players O.o
Read the post before you complain...
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Flixerine
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:58:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Flixerine on 30/10/2008 15:58:20 It was more about the sentence than about whats in the post but k^^ you are right... pls dont hurt me and go evil at me
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.30 16:07:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Xynomorphine
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Fulber
Originally by: Fyzikz As for this. It is a mining industrial COMMAND ship. Command ships require leadership 5, why wouldn't a mining command ship require the skill to use the links it is designed for?
Just like the Rorqual.
and every other command ship in existance
Ive seen this on SiSi and do agree that it is a mining command ship so mining director lvl 1 is a must as it can run 3 x gang mods,
Just like the Rorqual. |
Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.10.30 17:00:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Flixerine Edited by: Flixerine on 30/10/2008 15:58:20 It was more about the sentence than about whats in the post but k^^ you are right... pls dont hurt me and go evil at me
All sins forgiven...
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Flixerine
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:19:00 -
[499]
Anyway I want to fly it, when will it be added to tranquility?
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Intaki Diplomat
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:59:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Unity Love
Originally by: Fulber
You could have asked someone in-game to QFT quote you instead of having to do it yourself. Or, you could have selected the right character when posting the QFT.
Epic spot lol.
Originally by: Xindi Kraid First of all there aren't any ships designed for POS construction or resupply. Second, why shouldn't I use the Orca for that purpose? Why should I bring out a freighter that costs twice as much and is 5 times slower just to end up wasting half of the cargo space when the orca will serve that purpose just fine?
Great use it for that. But don't demand changes to make it into something to suit your purposes.
Unity Love: Unless a mini-freighter is released by CCP, this is the only option industrials have to the freighter. A mini freighter is being requested by many players for years, and finally there is a hope of getting a a ship with similar features.
I'm sorry, but Xindi Kraid is completely right. This ship will probably be used to replace the freighter for POS mantainance, and there is nothing you can do about it, unless ORCA become a small cargohold. In the other hand, I agree that specialized skills are interesting to induce the usage of a ship ship, but unless the mini freighter is released together with the ORCA, ORCA will probably replace it.
Another point: EVE needs more flexible ships. In EVE, we must always train several months to enable one nice ship. That's so so sooooo boring... CCP takes so long to release industrial ships... at least give us the flexibility to use the ships as we need.
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loki gallach
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Posted - 2008.10.30 20:07:00 -
[501]
I LOVE THIS SHIP, so much I'm going to have 2 everybody says change this or change that, but most agree that they want 1. So CCP must have got it right
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Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.10.30 20:48:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Thevlyn First, i love this ship. Second, my alt can already fly it, so i give this opinion based off thought and not desire. Mining Director 1 is an excessive requirement for the orca. Please make it conform to other command ships as far as the leadership is concerned. The very fact that you require Director to use the mods is requirment enough to gain the bonus from them. To then add it to the ability to fly the ship is redundent. Also, to give access to this ship as a hualer only, for those currently doing the hauling (which they should be able to access without useless skills aka. high end leadership), give it more basic leadership skills. Barge 5, or as it really should be renamed, ORE ships, is a fine requirement that will already force a normal command pilot to train for this specificlly. Also, ORE Ships as a skill would reduce complaints about Barge skill, as it would make more sense to people stuck on the name. exhumer could = Advanced ORE Ships. Gives you guys alot more flexability imo. Thanks for listening.
Yes. I completely agree.
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Lyvanna Kitaen
Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.30 22:04:00 -
[503]
I had a thought about the size of the ship maint bay. (I posted this with my alt in another thread)
I know that CCP has stated that the 200000m3 size was dictated by their desire for the Orca not to be able to carry battleships. However, the size of the bay is limiting its use in its primary role as a mining command ship. It really needs to have space for a couple of Hulks and a decent sized hauler.
A couple of alternatives:
1) You could increase the bay size and limit the bay to industrial type ships only as in the Rorqual. I'm not all that hot on this option because I would also like to use my Orca as a mobile exploration base which requires it to be able to carry cov-ops and exploration site running ships.
2) You could increase the bay size but limit the size of individual ships to <200000m3. This keeps the flexibility of loading many types of ships but disallows carrying battleships (the stated aim of the smaller bay)
comments?
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.10.30 23:03:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen I had a thought about the size of the ship maint bay. (I posted this with my alt in another thread)
I know that CCP has stated that the 200000m3 size was dictated by their desire for the Orca not to be able to carry battleships. However, the size of the bay is limiting its use in its primary role as a mining command ship. It really needs to have space for a couple of Hulks and a decent sized hauler.
A couple of alternatives:
1) You could increase the bay size and limit the bay to industrial type ships only as in the Rorqual. I'm not all that hot on this option because I would also like to use my Orca as a mobile exploration base which requires it to be able to carry cov-ops and exploration site running ships.
2) You could increase the bay size but limit the size of individual ships to <200000m3. This keeps the flexibility of loading many types of ships but disallows carrying battleships (the stated aim of the smaller bay)
comments?
The current limit is 400km3, not 200k. Please allow me my fantasy of hauling around commandships :)
The bigger the items transferred, the better it will be for those like me who need a mini freighter. If ccp wants to stay under 500km3 to keep BSs out of it, then that's fine, especially if the rumor is true that another specialized hauler is on the way for "dropship" purposes.
Otherwise, limiting individual ship sizes in maint. bay sounds like a workable idea to me. (shrug)
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Lyvanna Kitaen
Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.30 23:18:00 -
[505]
Edited by: Lyvanna Kitaen on 30/10/2008 23:18:42
Originally by: Firewolf21 [
The current limit is 400km3, not 200k. Please allow me my fantasy of hauling around commandships :)
The bigger the items transferred, the better it will be for those like me who need a mini freighter. If ccp wants to stay under 500km3 to keep BSs out of it, then that's fine, especially if the rumor is true that another specialized hauler is on the way for "dropship" purposes.
Otherwise, limiting individual ship sizes in maint. bay sounds like a workable idea to me. (shrug)
Oops you're correct. I had a brain fart. Replace everywhere it says 200000m3 with 400000m3.
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Max Essen
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 02:57:00 -
[506]
Ship Maintenance Bay. Perhaps a relook of size is in order. Increase to 675k m3 to allow to carry 2 Hulks and 1 Iteron V. Add the restriction that only Barges, Enhumers, Industrials and Transports can be carried by the Orca and you've got it just like the Rorq.
HiSlotAdd a 4th Hi Slot withthe CPU/PG to go with it and a skilled pilot can run Mining Mods and Tractors supporting a corp belt mining quite efficiently.
IMHO, this will make the Orca perfect.
Real Men Structure-Tank
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Sgmorris
Caldari Ratio Decidendi Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.31 03:32:00 -
[507]
any one else find it waird now the Rorquel is now easier to train for then the empire king care bear? ? and the roquel dose more ?
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.10.31 03:54:00 -
[508]
Originally by: Sgmorris any one else find it waird now the Rorquel is now easier to train for then the empire king care bear? ? and the roquel dose more ?
Not sure where you were looking, but the Road-Kill (Rorqual) requires Capital Ships 2, Advanced Spaceship Command 5, and Jump Drive Operation 1 that also requires Navigation V and Warp Drive Operation 5... and then requires a whole host of skills to properly fit out and fly the thing. Its is a very skill intensive ship as all cap ships are.
The Orca can be flown out of the box by most players that meet the basic flying requirements.
One big note though, The Road-Kill does not require any leadership skills to fly the beast even thogh command ships require Leadership 5 and Warfare Link Specialist 4. So I guess we get a compromise.
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.31 06:50:00 -
[509]
Well since arguing over the skills is going nowhere I am going to ask a question instead.
Does the Orca require a capital maintainance array to park or will it fit in a normal maint array? -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
Killerhound
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.31 07:57:00 -
[510]
Yeah mate over 10 x 10^6 m3 fits in no normal Maintenance bay.
Got a question myself, has anybody already tested the stats to put on that ship a tank like tanking? Me thinking of using it as a 0.0 Hauler.
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Xynomorphine
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Posted - 2008.10.31 08:29:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Well since arguing over the skills is going nowhere I am going to ask a question instead.
Does the Orca require a capital maintainance array to park or will it fit in a normal maint array?
The Orca docks and undocks from all stations in Empire as its a High Sec ship. Believe in no one, trust in no one, the truth is really out there, keep your friends clode but your enemys even closer. |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.10.31 11:11:00 -
[512]
Originally by: Killerhound Me thinking of using it as a 0.0 Hauler.
With my shield skills (not perfect) I tested with 1 survey scanner 2 cap recharger 2s and a large shield booster. Could not perma-run the booster - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Killerhound
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.31 11:59:00 -
[513]
Sorry need to clarify :),
in 0.0 belts you often use a bonus giver that stands somewhere at POS and gives you bonus so you don't need to risk it when badies come into system.
With the Orca this bonus giver can become the Hauler, after all you need to carry your stuff to the POS. It's simply fantastic because you now have one more char that can mine while your orca is still better then any itheron mark V or command ship :)
Look if you expand your Cargo on it and put on some active shield hardner you still are protected even if you don't really need it. (Miner do tank for their own, even in 0.0)
90,000m3 + 30,000m3 give you 120'000m3 which is about 4-5 times what you have in a Itheron mark V. While filling 1 Can (27'000m3) any 11-12 Minutes you only need to fly about every 45 Minutes to your mate if he is alone. With using 2 chars only every 23 Minutes still absolutely great because you have 23 Minutes of Bonus at a level nearly of a Rorqual (-2% Per level difference).
You dont have bonus for about 1-2 Minutes (due to not beeing able to use Gang Links in warp) but that lost ISK aren't such a pain.
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Max Essen
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:17:00 -
[514]
Originally by: Sgmorris any one else find it waird now the Rorquel is now easier to train for then the empire king care bear? ? and the roquel dose more ?
I believe if you check the facts, you are incorrect.
Real Men Structure-Tank
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Black Naks
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:24:00 -
[515]
I have one sugestion regarding orca to CCP's...
Let evrything be like you planed about orca,but then give orca capability of refining ore on board..
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Thevlyn
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:47:00 -
[516]
Edited by: Thevlyn on 31/10/2008 13:48:44 If you really care about the Orca and want to see it, take the time to read the whole discussion. Seriously, so many people are either saying the exact same thing, or saying something that CCP has already clarififed. The Orca is MEANT to carry all types of rigged ships smaller then a BS. This is because there are no ships that can carry rigged ships in high sec as of yet. Also, they do not want ore compression on this ship, period. So don't offer it, they have already said they plan to compensate for ore in some other way which has not yet been announced. Please refrain from, gimmie this, statments as they do not help CCP to decide anything. If you want your opinion heard, take the time to give in depth reasons for a change, and how it would be positive and negative. This is not an everything in one ship, but a ship that helps fullfill many currently missing roles.
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Killerhound
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:05:00 -
[517]
I am just surprised how people complain about the skills to fly a ship like the orca. Sincerly I mean it's just about 7-8 Days this skill to get to it. Which in fact I think should be not such a problem as you are already willing to pay 400 mio bucks for it.
Just be realist. For those that think that it's to easy if there is some sort of symmetry in giving possibility to fly a ship class with certain skills then of course Orca should fill it in terms of this symmetry, but nothing more. Be happy that you don't need to pay more SPs to it and for those that think it hurts their skill image because they are PVP well mates its industrial ship so any one willing to do sincer industrial business should skill those leadership, anybody should as they are usefuller then many do think.
About the Rorqual I think the time to skill it is by far greater as you need all jumping skill, capital skills, Industrial Core skills, Jumping Calibration skills, capital tanking skills, etc etc etc... whereas for the orca well the biggest part is to get mining barge 5 but this aswell should be in the pocket of any good industrialist who does mining.
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:27:00 -
[518]
Edited by: Krylon Rhae on 31/10/2008 14:30:33
Originally by: Killerhound I am just surprised how people complain about the skills to fly a ship like the orca. Sincerly I mean it's just about 7-8 Days this skill to get to it. Which in fact I think should be not such a problem as you are already willing to pay 400 mio bucks for it.
Just be realist. For those that think that it's to easy if there is some sort of symmetry in giving possibility to fly a ship class with certain skills then of course Orca should fill it in terms of this symmetry, but nothing more. Be happy that you don't need to pay more SPs to it and for those that think it hurts their skill image because they are PVP well mates its industrial ship so any one willing to do sincer industrial business should skill those leadership, anybody should as they are usefuller then many do think.
About the Rorqual I think the time to skill it is by far greater as you need all jumping skill, capital skills, Industrial Core skills, Jumping Calibration skills, capital tanking skills, etc etc etc... whereas for the orca well the biggest part is to get mining barge 5 but this aswell should be in the pocket of any good industrialist who does mining.
Couldn't agree more. In fact, the skill tree for this sub-capital ship is actually very reasonable for its size and cost. Remember, once you can fly it, there are no special mods you need to train for in order to properly use this puppy. A BS may be relatively easy to to train for and fly but the skill training to properly fly it is a totally different matter all together. Be grateful the skill tree is relatively easy and within a few days reach of most industrialists.
Of my 4 charaters, only one is good to go, one is 1 day away, another 11 days away and the fourth is 33 days away... and he is the most critical of them all to me since he is my hauler/trader. So start the training now and you'll be good to go when the new skill comes out with the patch.
You'll also have a lot of time to get ready after the patch since it will take time for the cost to settle down after the first wave of rip-offs end for the techno-freak that wants to be the first kid on the block with a new toy.
BTW... I'll take 2
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Dos Cerveza
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Posted - 2008.10.31 20:23:00 -
[519]
Sorry,
Bored of reading the same thing over and over....
It (as I see it) is a mining command ship....the mining barge 5 req is rubbish mining 4/5 fair enough, there are no generic indy t1 skills so i wont say transports 1, 2 or 3 but maybe battlecruiser 4/5...
whatever you do please issue the revised skill set (not buried in some 200 page post) soonest cost training my command pilot to barge 5 when i don't need to is gonna be a test...
Thx
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.10.31 20:42:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Dos Cerveza Sorry,
Bored of reading the same thing over and over....
It (as I see it) is a mining command ship....the mining barge 5 req is rubbish mining 4/5 fair enough, there are no generic indy t1 skills so i wont say transports 1, 2 or 3 but maybe battlecruiser 4/5...
whatever you do please issue the revised skill set (not buried in some 200 page post) soonest cost training my command pilot to barge 5 when i don't need to is gonna be a test...
Thx
It's a mining command ship, why would it require a combat ships skills to use? As an industry ship it should have an industry based skill tree so Mining barge V is a perfect fit.
Battlecruisers at any level would look out of place as theres no progression from or to battlecruisers anywhere, if we use battleships as an example we can see that you start at frigate then move on to cruisers and then to battleships. The Orca isn't a massive ship so with mining barges being the only real mining industry ship its logical that it should have a place in there, its developed by the same people who designed the Barges/Exhumers which is another reason it makes perfect sense.
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SirWOLFE
Caldari WOLF INDUSTRY
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Posted - 2008.11.01 07:40:00 -
[521]
Im personally looking forward to this ship and would be a nice answer to the small empire corp. Im now training for the mining foreman mindlink. I can already fly the rorqual and the skilling for the orca is easy compared to that and all the compression skills u need to actually use it.
The orca allows u to move rigged ships via empire which s a great idea and is really needed but it will never replace a freighter for hauling that several people have mentioned there is a big diference to using an orca and movign 900k m3 in one go.
I already have the isk for the bpo and will be on the day it comes out to get it and build it. Sig Removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn ([email protected]) |
spigu
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Posted - 2008.11.01 10:28:00 -
[522]
Hmmm, does anybody know for sure if the orca will be able to use jump gates, for example in an enemies abound ???
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Oreth Te
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Posted - 2008.11.01 12:23:00 -
[523]
From what I have seen of the initial seeded Orca so far it has plenty of potential, in various ways, which will please the Eve population, however the ship appears to be lacking the ability to support any form of alliance mining operation in the access configuration options, very bad! It needs a suitable bay for their usage. donÆt forget that several smaller corps "forming an alliance for the common good", that is one of the Tenets you purport to encourage, being in a position to obtain this ship, in said small alliance, but provides no "Alliance Bay" to reconfigure the non-Corp ships etc; only "Corporation Hanger Bay Access" which can only effectively be accessed by the corporation who owns it, thus reducing its usefulness in the area presumably it was primarily intended. Shame on you! While some of us can use Hulks with large cargo bays to carry the necessary re-config spares not all players can. Other than that to date you have a nice looking and reasonably well balanced ship ôin progressö So Far. Oh and Please! Try and make it Macro Miner Proof, ôLol, I wish, ah! pipe dream overö, perhaps you could target the shipÆs usage stats, per user over time, that is if you really value the proper active and creative mining and industrial players in EVE, not the second rate "clockwork facsimilesÆ" that really drag down the effectiveness of genuine miners nuff said, on them. Snarl, Spit, Growl...
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corvinuis
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Posted - 2008.11.01 15:51:00 -
[524]
looking at all the conversation so far no ones realy mentioned with 50 drone space u can fit . 5 mining drones . 5 t2 light drones
providing more mining veild to the op and still providing sufficient defence in high sec mining ops
and for once this ship has a lot of people drooling at the chance to fly it
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Angel Lightbringer
Dark Evolution Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:34:00 -
[525]
Originally by: spigu Hmmm, does anybody know for sure if the orca will be able to use jump gates, for example in an enemies abound ???
Well from the dev blog itself:
Originally by: Dev Blog, end of 4th paragraph ...wider range of use in all areas of space as it can use stargates and does not have a jump drive.
-Angel |
Arthur Pewty
Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:18:00 -
[526]
Can CCP please lock down the skills to fly this ship sooner than later (Or at least come out with the comment 'While nothing is final until it is on the live server, the skills for the Orca will now remain the same on the test server')
Hopefully the plan is for the Orca BPO to be used as the basis for a T2 varient, which will allow for the transportation of Rigged Battleships.
Given the ability of acceleration gates to discriminate between Battleships and non-Battleships there is hopefully a game mechanic which will allow for the size of the Orca's ship bay to be increased, without it allowing Battleships to be stored (they still need the ability to use the fitting option).
Finally, can the Orca BPO get some love, so that I can see realistic Copy times and updated buil requirements, given the changes already made to cargohold sizes?
Arthur Pewty
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Max Essen
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:55:00 -
[527]
Hi All,
I was messing about on the test server and, because I was not paying particular attention to what I was doing, fitted two MFL - Laser Optimization gang mods on the Orca.
I was able to undock and activate both. Not sure if they would stack on the bonus' however I received no warning and both seemd to function properly.
I will try to get a miner on with me soon to see what effect activating both has on his cycle time.
Real Men Structure-Tank
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ByFstugan
Caldari Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:49:00 -
[528]
I have a new suggestion for a bonus to the ship, in order to make it cargo ore better than other stuff. This would be an addition to the other bonuses (or replace the other cargo-bonus).
'Industrial Command Ship' Skill bonus: 15% more effective ore storage
This would make ORE take 75% less space at max level. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.11.02 07:07:00 -
[529]
Originally by: ByFstugan I have a new suggestion for a bonus to the ship, in order to make it cargo ore better than other stuff. This would be an addition to the other bonuses (or replace the other cargo-bonus).
'Industrial Command Ship' Skill bonus: 15% more effective ore storage
This would make ORE take 75% less space at max level.
I like the added boost to ore storage. Perhaps another take on the idea would be to make the bonus progressive per level; such as 5% = lvl 1, 10% = lvl 2, 15% = lvl 3, 20% = lvl 4 and 25% = lvl 5. The end result is the same, a 75% bonus, but has enhanced rewards for further training thus making attaining lvl 5 a real nice added incentive. Most people ignore the final long term lvl 5 skill since the incentive is small, i.e. 5% bonus. The progressive approach makes it much more appealing to get that skill to lvl 5.
Thoughts...
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Birabanor
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Posted - 2008.11.02 07:13:00 -
[530]
Edited by: Birabanor on 02/11/2008 07:14:01 I havent read all the post on this , but something serious is missing , Orca only have 3 high slots , and the ability to fit 3 gang modules , but i think it must have at least 4 high slots , so u can fit the gang modules plus a tractor beam, and ship bay should fit for 2 hulks and a industrial ship atleast
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.02 07:48:00 -
[531]
Everything is being repeated AGAIN, so I paged back and found the ccp update:
Originally by: CCP Chronotis general replies to some questions and clarifications
Clarifications
1. The Orca uses stargates and does not have a jump drive.
I realise this can get confusing with the various tiers of capital ships out there and the mixed referencing of it as a sub-capital or command ship. Its a Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship (SCICS), I have spoken!
2. The Orca can have 3 gang links active by default
I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful.
3. what's this about the x-large ship assembly array?
All current large ship assembly arrays which are only anchorable in low sec are being renamed to x-large assembly array.
A new large ship assembly array is being added with Quantum Rise which can be anchored in high sec and allows manufacture of battleships, freighters and the orca.
Fixes
1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.
This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.
2. The sensor strength is silly
it has been reduced to more sane values. (Not that being jammed is a huge drawback.)
3. The capacitor recharge was a little too high
This has been reduced a little to more normal levels so we do not have a really high recharge rate.
4. Why does it not require capital corporate hangar bay component to build?
it should and we are looking at adding 4 of those to the material requirements.
Things we are looking at changing
1. Increasing the drone bay capacity to 75m3 and bandwidth to 50 mbit/sec
This is not a bad suggestion and we are looking into it.
2. Increasing capacity of the corporate hangar bay to 40,000m3
This is a reasonable increase in capacity without making the ship overly powerful.
3. Adding a 4th med slot
This is being looked into to add some flexibility and shield tanking potential.
General Opinions and Responses
1. It is a 'jack of all trades' and master of none
This is more a symptom of its primary bonus being cargo capacity rather than having a special ore hold which we would like to add in the future (along with special holds for other ships such as fuel bays for dreads and so on).
The addition of the ship maintenance bay which is not big enough to carry battleships (on purpose) but carry 2 hulks makes it role also swap a lot between general hauler and mining specialist and it suffers the same as the rorqual to an extent.
I believe in the future we will have much more focus for the ships with the addition of special hold for example then the intended role is much more defined than its less intended roles.
2. Why does it not mine?
This is deliberate, now is not the time to be adding giant asteroid eaters and we firmly believe that mining whilst not the most interactive or exciting mechanic (we have plans to address that) is a social mechanic and introducing ships which can swallow whole belts would be more harm than good. However we are not ruling out specialist ships in the future where a good niche is found for them.
3. Why does it not compress ore like the rorqual?
This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.
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Saberon
Gallente C3 Tech
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:22:00 -
[532]
- Give the Orca the same, logical, obvious, restriction as the Rorq has, Industrials and Barges, and their T2 variants only, and then buff the size of the ship bay. ORE and DCM designed these ships, they know how to efficiently stow them away. - The 4th Hi-slot is a no-brainer, really... - The ore-takes-less-space bonus would be awesome, and make sense - 75m¦ Drone Bay, with 50 GHz Drone Bandwidth would suit a ship of this size well - Higher skill requirements would also suit this ship better, this is not a toy everybody should have and fly, just because it's new - it's a specialized piece of equipment, and deserves the respect to be treated as such. - Adjust the CAP to more moderate levels (Not sure if this is done already on Sisi) - Mining Director is a very appropriate skill requirement for this ship. - So is Industry V, Science V, Astrogeology V, and similar skills
How about adding a seperate role bonus, such as 15% reduced space per level of the ore processing skills you have, for example : If you add 1000 m¦ Veldspar into the cargo hold, it would take up 1000 m¦, but, if you have Veldspar Processing IV, it would take up 1000-60% = 400 m¦. Same with all other types. That would indicare that you know about the construction and composition of the ores, how to manage it, under which environments it condenses, and so on.
Yes, it means training many skills, but it is also a lot of good stuff you get here!
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Tasty Bit
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2008.11.02 17:28:00 -
[533]
When you say "you've been waiting for"... do you include me in that?
Cos I have some news for you if that's the case.
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
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Posted - 2008.11.02 19:39:00 -
[534]
I believe the Orca should have 6 High slots rather then 3 so it has the ability to fit 6 strip miners Reasons:
1. Cargohold is HUGE. Take hours to fill it with 3 stripers.
2. 5 mineing drones dont help that much and you can carry 10, maybe increase the drone controle to 10 rather then 5 on this ship if you dont want to increase the Stripers.
3. Without one or both of the listed improvements above, its basicaly a hulk of metal which you will have to sit AFK in for hours to mine. Unless your in a Huge industrial fleet at which point, it wouldnt matter either way.
4. Perhaps needs to be tailored a little more to solo mineing. Many of the Highsec miners do not belong to Player Corporations so they can not be wardecked and pirated by griefer corps. and since this is a High sec ship....
5. The above I believe would be easy aditions to make.
Awsome Idea and I love the way the ship looks. Thats really All I can see that would need improvement.
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.11.02 23:39:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Malcorian Vandsteidt Perhaps needs to be tailored a little more to solo mineing. Many of the Highsec miners do not belong to Player Corporations so they can not be wardecked and pirated by griefer corps. and since this is a High sec ship....
I disagree, it's supposed to be for mining corporations and group play. If you don't want to take the risks of joining a player corp, you shouldn't get all the advantages.
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Harkster
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Posted - 2008.11.03 01:59:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Caelum Mortuos
Originally by: Malcorian Vandsteidt Perhaps needs to be tailored a little more to solo mineing. Many of the Highsec miners do not belong to Player Corporations so they can not be wardecked and pirated by griefer corps. and since this is a High sec ship....
I disagree, it's supposed to be for mining corporations and group play. If you don't want to take the risks of joining a player corp, you shouldn't get all the advantages.
I agree. We have enough problems with macro miners as it is.
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Sha'Aryn
Minmatar Northern Star Rim Alliance Shangri-La.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 06:18:00 -
[537]
I love it!
Still, I'd love it even more if it could support at least 1 modulated strip miner (with 500% yield bonus) to have some direct usefulness to its role, which is most appealing to professional miners. You don't train to mining barge 5 to watch everyone else mine.
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Killerhound
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.03 09:03:00 -
[538]
Sorry Mate, I do believe this would make absolutely no sense.
Well it's very simple to explain: You got a Command Ship, not a mining ship, and if you would be able to fit a strip miner you would have a Solo Mining Ship, so fully useless bonus then, because you need at least 2 players in your gang.
Let it as it is and do as fast as possible to put it on tranquillity.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.11.03 09:07:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Saberon - Mining Director is a very appropriate skill requirement for this ship.
Why? Please son't say "because it is a command ship" or something similar. Unless skills are changed or EveMon is outdated, NO other command ship requires the skills for a specific Gang link. They all require Warfare Link Specialist 4, though - the command ship skill needs it.
Mining Director makes no sense at all. Should be replaced with Warfare Link Spec 4, to be in line with command ships. -------------------------------------------------- I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.03 09:38:00 -
[540]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 03/11/2008 09:43:47 Not nice telling us it required Mining foreman 3 then finding out it was really Mining Director 1 which requires Mining foreman 5 as a pre-req.
I though Sisi had accelerated training for stuff that's in testing? It's telling me 12 days to train mining foreman lvl5. By the time I've managed to train everything to start testing, the patch will be released
Edit:
Originally by: Sha'Aryn You don't train to mining barge 5 to watch everyone else mine.
QFT. The most you can do is send out 5 mining drones
In a similar way to the Rorqual, this ship just sits there looking pretty. The pilot is going to be AFK most of the time or playing a second account because the Orca and the Rorqual have nothing to do. At least the Rorqual can compress the ore so it gives the pilot a tiny bit of work occasionally. What can the Orca do apart from sit and watch? Maybe pop a rat or two occasionally which the Hulks are quite capable of doing themselves anyway.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. |
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Morgenrei
House of Stark FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.11.03 11:21:00 -
[541]
Very nice ship.
One base argument for introducing this class of ship was the large gap between transports and freighters. So, concerning the skill requirements:
Please dont forget that many pure haulers want to use it.
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Oetaka
Omega Engineering Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 15:54:00 -
[542]
the possible changes stated on page 19 by firewolf21 i think is the way to go. the drones IMO are a bit unneeded but that is just me. The orca then would be a kick arse all around ship
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ReekyMarut
Amarr Mining Laser Dot Org
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Posted - 2008.11.03 19:07:00 -
[543]
Two quick questions I think i missed something
1. Isn't 250% of 20km (the range of a small tractor beam)= 50 km?
2. Isn't 500% of the 23km range of a survey scanner II = 115km?
Or is there some other way to increase it?
P.S. And yes Chronotis lets please give it a fourth mid slot, it'd just make for a nice amenity. Or if you suddenly add another low slot instead everyone who wants more cargo feel sated and appeased. Thank you all @ CCP for yet another beautiful new ship! Much obliged and thank you for all the work you do!
Mining Laser Dot Org Blog
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Delpsi
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Posted - 2008.11.03 19:14:00 -
[544]
Edited by: Delpsi on 03/11/2008 19:15:18 For #1: Its a 250% bonus. That means it is a 50km bonus giving a total of 70kms. Similarly for #2.
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Ixtelle
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Posted - 2008.11.03 22:07:00 -
[545]
Edited by: Ixtelle on 03/11/2008 22:11:54 Edited by: Ixtelle on 03/11/2008 22:08:45 Looks awesome, but really wish the skill requirements weren't so miner-specific. Why do I need mining barge 5 for a hauler / command ship? My main char sometimes acts in a miner support role, with Command Ships to 5, Warfare Link Specialist 4, and Mining Director to 4, but never actually mines (8500 SP in industry). This ship looks like an ideal extension to that role and skillset.
However, the required skills mean I have to go back and get Industry from 1 to 5, Astrogeology from 0 to 3, and Mining Barge from 0 to 5, plus the ship-specific skill. That's a pretty significant investment of time and, more importantly, totally irrelevant skills for a character and a ship that will never be used for mining.
Why not make the requirement something like Advanced Spaceship Command 5, instead? It would be a comparable time investment, but make much more sense.
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Knightscot
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Posted - 2008.11.03 23:01:00 -
[546]
I do hope the Developers are still monitoring and taking onboard the views expressed in this thread...more especially CCP Chronotis as he seems to be the lead developer on the Orca.
Having been reading and monitoring this thread since it was initiated and having reached 20 pages todate, I want to add my own tuppence worth...
It goes without saying but Nice Ship...Very Nice Ship...
The addition of any new ship to the game is always a welcome bonus whether combat, logistical or industrial...it gives us all something to look forward to in turn as each race or class gets some attention at some point from the devs. As can be seen from the number of compliments and positive reactions from the players.
At the risk of sounding down beat on the subject of the Orca and having a go at the efforts of the devs which I am not, I appreciate the time and effort they all put into this excellent game which we all enjoy. A joy which can only really be appreciated when you have spent time away from the game and then come back to.
However I must voice my own concerns with the ship that claims to be as quoted by Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a 'jack of all trades' and master of none
.
As a member of a small corp and a solo miner/industrialist I do not see the advantages of using this ship other than to transport/haul my hulk and transporter...there fore it offers no credible benefits to the solo industrialist... If it is meant to be master of none then why give it command bonuses, I realise it is an Industrial Command Ship, it is a hauler, there is no escape from that fact. Which leads me to the question why have a prerequisite of Mining Barge level 5 or any mining related skill for what is essentially a hauler. This would be an inefficient use of a miner who would be better placed in a coveter mining instead of sitting in a ship ideally suited to a hauler.
Therefore for a solo miner and industrialist it would be better served as a hauler for a second account, who can transport the mined ores less frequently than at preset with and industrial ship, running back and forth every 10-15 mins.
My understanding is that this ship is meant to be a sub capital and fills the niche between the hauler class and the freighter class...This being so the cargo needs to be increased to a minimum of say 100,000m3 with skills maxed & all mods and rigs raising the total cargo to say perhaps 150,000m3 which goes some way to meeting and closing the gap between haulers and freighters...If the Developers see no need to increase the cargo bay then it can only be because they intend to release another type of cargo ship or increase the cargo bay of the Orca at some future point/expansion.
To all and sundry who argue that this only plays into the hands of macro miners...this is an entirely separate argument and not about the premise of a new industrial class ship...at the end of the day macro miners have no place in this game and should not be in the game, I accept that they are and that is unfortunate but CCP should really be removing all macro miners but like all things there are cheaters in all walks of life and EvE Online is no exception but if you remove the argument of macro miners from the equation...and see past the macro miners, in an ideal world there would be no macro miners, but it is far from an ideal world (sighs)...and we would/should all be playing on a level playing field.
These are just my thoughts on what is looking like a good ship potentially if the devs get it right. And even if they do not include all the requested alterations I dare say they will implement some but the savvy players among you will find ways of using it for other means other than for what it is intended...
Bring Forth the Orca and all who wish to Fly Her...
KS
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Qosmir Ice
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Posted - 2008.11.04 01:47:00 -
[547]
Quote: null Quote: I stick to 0.0 for the most part, but I can see a lot of can flipper tears in the future as soon as people figure out they can mine directly into the corp hanger instead of a jet can.
Exactly why so many are crying about it.
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Kael Sillumen
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Posted - 2008.11.04 12:11:00 -
[548]
Its a subcapital...and it really wont mine (if you are nuts to mine with 5 mining drones only, grab a vexor...) so please, pretty please, remove the silly mining barge V req..no point to train for a covetor/hulk when you will only sit aside and watch others mine. Perhaps Advanced Spaceship Command IV or V? Its a subcap after all.
From what I see so far, it would be better to give it Social V, since all an Orca pilot would do is chat with miners, waiting to be filled :P
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sasf
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Posted - 2008.11.04 13:14:00 -
[549]
Whats with you people, you're never happy? It wouldn't matter what skill requirments it needed there would always be a wingers. And you're right it doesn't actually mine itself, but it does support hulk pilots. So as far as I'm concerned if you cant fly a Hulk you shouldn't fly an orca.
P.S I have mining barge V :-P
As The human torch says 'Flame On'
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ReekyMarut
Amarr Mining Laser Dot Org
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Posted - 2008.11.04 13:44:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Delpsi Edited by: Delpsi on 03/11/2008 19:15:18 For #1: Its a 250% bonus. That means it is a 50km bonus giving a total of 70kms. Similarly for #2.
Thank you for clarifying that for me, now it makes sense!
As for mining barge 5 prereq. I support it but if people want to whine then they could just make it 4 and it wouldnt be very much of a big deal. uh oh. now the pointless arguing will ensue.
Mining Laser Dot Org Blog
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meshki
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Posted - 2008.11.04 14:08:00 -
[551]
Iv've read all 20 pages and seen no mention of if this ship can be constructed in hi-sec. I apologize if I have missed this and was wondering if anyone could clarify. |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.04 14:35:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Kael Sillumen so please, pretty please, remove the silly mining barge V req..
MINING. SUPPORT. VESSEL.
MINING.
Seriously, why is this a problem? most of the people who're going to want these things will already have that skill- it's the prerequisite for covetors and exhumers, after all. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Guyblin
Minmatar The Idle Hands
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Posted - 2008.11.04 14:47:00 -
[553]
Edited by: Guyblin on 04/11/2008 14:46:57 Yeah it's a Mining SUPPORT vessel - so why not more requirements of Mining Director/Foreman instead of barge? The emphasis should be on the coordinating of mining gangs, not mining itself. The requiremenrts for leadership are insignificant compared to the mining requirements. Mining V yes, but Barge V? For smaller gangs you might as well just have the pilot sitting in an exhumer adding another 4500m3-dd to the yield every cycle. |
Max Essen
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.04 14:49:00 -
[554]
The Orca is looking very good right now. So, what is realistically left? 1. Finalize the BPO values. 2. Increase Ship Array to 475k m3 (include no battleship restriction) 3. Add a 4th HiSlot. (wish list)
Already updated have been: 1. Corp Hanger increased to 40k m3 2. Cargo Hold increased to 30k m3 3. Skill required made a bit tougher 4. Drone bay incresed to 75 m3 5. Drone bandwidth increased to 50 Mbit
I am sure I have missed some other fine-tune improvements however, there is no way to make EVERYONE happy so just finalize the last few items and we will have our Industrial (Mining) Command Ship.
This also leaves the opportunity for many variations of the Orca in future patch/releases. Maybe one geared more toward mid-level hauling, etc.
Box it and ship it ... I want one |
ReekyMarut
Amarr Mining Laser Dot Org
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Posted - 2008.11.04 15:29:00 -
[555]
Originally by: meshki Iv've read all 20 pages and seen no mention of if this ship can be constructed in hi-sec. I apologize if I have missed this and was wondering if anyone could clarify.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Where can the Orca be built?
Anywhere a freighter can be built so empire station manufacturing assembly lines, large ship assembly array, x-large ship assembly array and of course the outposts or other stations with manufacturing assembly lines.
so yeah |
Falcon101
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Posted - 2008.11.04 15:55:00 -
[556]
So the orca comes out on the 11th. Do we know the official specs and skill requirements needed to drive this ship? Or is CCP still making changes?
***please no mining director 1, please no mining director 1***
keep the original skill requirement \o/
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groover390
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Posted - 2008.11.04 16:54:00 -
[557]
This ship is looking sooo good, i cant wait. But one question about the high slots. is it going to be capital class tractor beams or small??
Im not sure if this has been asked yet, just want to clarify.
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ReekyMarut
Amarr Mining Laser Dot Org
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Posted - 2008.11.04 17:59:00 -
[558]
Originally by: groover390 This ship is looking sooo good, i cant wait. But one question about the high slots. is it going to be capital class tractor beams or small??
Im not sure if this has been asked yet, just want to clarify.
Capital Tractor Beam I requires 75,000 powergrid and 10,000 CPU. No it will not have enough CPU or Powergrid for it. |
alric eshara
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Posted - 2008.11.04 20:45:00 -
[559]
This ship rocks. I cant see any problem with the skill reqs. this will be an awesome base for my empire mining ops |
Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.11.04 20:49:00 -
[560]
Originally by: Max Essen Already updated have been: 1. Corp Hanger increased to 40k m3 2. Cargo Hold increased to 30k m3 3. Skill required made a bit tougher 4. Drone bay incresed to 75 m3 5. Drone bandwidth increased to 50 Mbit
I am sure I have missed some other fine-tune improvements however, there is no way to make EVERYONE happy so just finalize the last few items and we will have our Industrial (Mining) Command Ship.
It's good to see that the devs are paying attention to the forums and making the appropriate changes. The ship is not designed to fill every need, just like any other ship in the game.
To those who suggest having ore take up less space in the hangar: not gonna happen. It would be very complicated and probably add considerably to the lag problem to have every item in the cargo bay be checked to see if it is ore. It is much more feasible to add a separate hangar restricted to ore only (similar to fuel bays).
Mining Barge V is a completely reasonable skill to require for a ship this size. The Mining Barge skill is the only skill that applies directly to ORE ships. Every other ship requires a racial and class specific skill to fly, why shouldn't the Orca? It has been suggested that "Mining Barge" skill be renamed ORE Ships to help alleviate confusion.
Mining Director I is a little rough, but not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is the suggestion that Warfare Link Specialist IV be trained. We are talking about a mining foreman command ship, not a combat command ship. Why would I train a skill to level IV that will have no effect on my solo character's ability to mine better?
It's a great ship, much anticipated, and fills the gap (as it was intended). |
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.11.04 21:39:00 -
[561]
Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 04/11/2008 21:39:53
Originally by: Leumas Kharzim Mining Director I is a little rough, but not unreasonable.
Why? To quote the DevBlog:
Originally by: DevBlog
What is the role of the Orca?
The Orca is a collaboration between Outer Ring Excavations and Deep Core Mining Inc. Designed as a "sub capital" logistical ship with a mining command focus, it is ideal for the day to day needs of corporations or individuals. It is perhaps a stepping stone towards capital ships, filling a void between the regular and capital class ships making it more affordable with a wider range of use in all areas of space as it can use stargates and does not have a jump drive.
True, it does have a mining command "focus". But the highlighted sentence doesn't read like "You may only use it for mining purposes and never even once take out the mining gang links because that is the sole reason this ship exists" to me. The mining focus is obvious by the bonus to mining links. As is the armor focus on a Damnation. BUT - the damnation doesn't FORCE you to learn Armored Warfare Specialist. So why does the Orca?
Quote: What is unreasonable is the suggestion that Warfare Link Specialist IV be trained. We are talking about a mining foreman command ship, not a combat command ship. Why would I train a skill to level IV that will have no effect on my solo character's ability to mine better?
To quote EveMon:
Originally by: EveMon
Warfare Link Specialist: Improved fleet leadership. Boosts effectiveness of all warfare link and mining foreman modules by 10% per level.
The skill could be named better, no doubt. But it is a more fitting skill for an industrial COMMAND ship than a specialiced skill that only affects a single subset of gang-links, even if they are industrial-related. Unless, of course, the Orca has a special restriction that disallows the use of non-mining gang-links?
Besides, for a solo character mining, the Orca is useless anyway.
---
Also, I support renaming the skill "Mining Barge" to something different. The name is now outdated and doesn't fit anymore, as it is used for any T1 ORE Ship. -------------------------------------------------- I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner. |
cleocat
Gallente Australian Independant Mining Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.04 23:45:00 -
[562]
When I saw the Rorqual I asked, why mining barge skill, now again with the Orca, I ask, why mining barge skill.
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words). It is not able to mine. So why all the mining related skills.
As to train mining barge you first need to have trained mining to lvl4, industy to lvl5, Science to lvl5 and Astrogeology to lvl3 before you can train mining barge. Fine if the Rorq and Orca could mine, but they cant so these are skills are actually pretty useless, especially for the Orca. Maybe a little less for the Rorq as it at least has ore compression.
This is fine for the miner, but for others who trained to help miners with hauling these skills are wasted training time that could\would be better used training other skills.
As these ships cannot mine why do they need mining barge, and worse still mining barge to lvl 5.
The only reason I would look at getting an Orca would be so I could transport rigged ships from point A to point B. Making it nothing more than big hauler, with the added bonus of hauling rigged ships, which haulers cannot do. So skills like industrial or transport ships, along with leadership skills would appear to be more appropriate for both the Rorq and Orca.
The Rorq is already out there so not much can be done there I suppose, but CCP please change the skills needed for the Orca before it comes out
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.11.05 00:10:00 -
[563]
Edited by: Constance Harme on 05/11/2008 00:10:20
Originally by: cleocat When I saw the Rorqual I asked, why mining barge skill, now again with the Orca, I ask, why mining barge skill.
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words). It is not able to mine. So why all the mining related skills.
It would be bad choice to have a commander that knows bugger all about the ships he's commanding wouldn't it? It's like an english teacher having no actual knowledge of english.
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Market Bandit
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Posted - 2008.11.05 00:21:00 -
[564]
Edited by: Market Bandit on 05/11/2008 00:21:45
Originally by: cleocat
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words)It is not able to mine. So why all the mining related skills.
Alternatively? ->
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words) It is an ORE ship, why should it not require their skills?
Edit - http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/ChiaraLorn/Orca.jpg regardless of what you say, it is one of the most beautiful ships CCP have produced, nice work |
Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.05 01:27:00 -
[565]
I just want to know if the building parts required are set in stone. What was added or changed.
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Xindi Kraid
Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.05 02:43:00 -
[566]
If they are releasing in a week I want to know the exact stats of the Orca as included in the expanion. -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
cleocat
Gallente Australian Independant Mining Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.05 04:50:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Constance Harme Edited by: Constance Harme on 05/11/2008 00:10:20
Originally by: cleocat When I saw the Rorqual I asked, why mining barge skill, now again with the Orca, I ask, why mining barge skill.
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words). It is not able to mine. So why all the mining related skills.
It would be bad choice to have a commander that knows bugger all about the ships he's commanding wouldn't it? It's like an english teacher having no actual knowledge of english.
Don't agree with you there at all....
If you can fly a commandship, and have the right leaderhip skills you can command a mining op and give out mining bonuses without having the need to train any industry skills or training mining barge. After all, the command pilots job in a mining op is to sit somewhere in the same system, set the fleet up, and start up the mining foreman links. Doens't need to do anything else.
It's the miner who needs to have the industry skills and who needs to know how to pilot a mining barge.
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cleocat
Gallente Australian Independant Mining Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.05 05:01:00 -
[568]
Edited by: cleocat on 05/11/2008 05:01:56
Originally by: Market Bandit Edited by: Market Bandit on 05/11/2008 00:21:45
Originally by: cleocat
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words)It is not able to mine. So why all the mining related skills.
Alternatively? ->
This is supposed to be a "logistical ship with a mining command focus" (ccp's words) It is an ORE ship, why should it not require their skills?
Edit - http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/ChiaraLorn/Orca.jpg regardless of what you say, it is one of the most beautiful ships CCP have produced, nice work
Never said it was ugly, actually never commented on the look of it at all. Just wondering why industry skills and mining barge was part of the requirements for it.
This is not a ship that I as a miner wouldn probably not train for, as I cannot mine in it.
Not sure I would I would train my alt up for it either. As alt can already use commandships and give bonuses, without the need to train Industry lvl5, mining lvl4, astrogeolgy lvl3 and mining barge lvl5
Have a corp buddy who hauls for us in a mammoth.
As I said, the best things I can really see as an advantage for this was being able to transport rigged ships from point A to point B, and lets face it, you dont need to know bugga all about mining to do that. |
Escoce
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Posted - 2008.11.05 06:29:00 -
[569]
The point to the Mining Barge V requirement I believe is this ship is meant to be piloted and benefit those of a mining background. Mining Barge V, although may not seem a valid requirement per se, does ensure that the pilot comes from a mining background, and is not used by players wishing to have a quick road for an alt character to fly this ship in "solo support"
I also strongly support the suggested Mining Director "lvl X" requirement (as a replacement requirement for Mining Barge V) and the command ships requirement as well. Do I make this claim lightly because I have these skills, no I don't. I have Mining Foreman IV, and Battlecruisers II, so I myself have a long road ahead as well. I support these suggestions because they make sense. The hulk takes months to prepare to pilot, a freighter takes nearly as long. The Rorqual also takes months. This is a high-end speciality ship along with the rest and should have just as long a road to fly it as we have for the others, mostly if nothing else to ensure that only serious individuals will earn the right to pilot these fine ships. If every player in eve could pilot a Hulk or Freighter or Orca within a couple weeks, then everyone would be and the value of having the ship would decrease as supply and demand would dictate, both the economics of the ship, and the economics of mineral trade and all the products produced from these base materials.
Having said this however, I for one would very much like to learn immediately what the intended skill requirements will be. I say this because of the suggestion that they will change before release and I would like to plan accordingly.
Thanks for listening.
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Damien Arcuri
Empire Black Market
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Posted - 2008.11.05 07:41:00 -
[570]
Just throwing my 2 cents in...
*PLEASE CCP fix the bogus mining director requirement before release. Mining Director 1 is not appropriate for the Orca. No other leadership specialty skill is required for any other commend ship. No leadership skills at all are required for the Rorqual. Why is Mining Directory a proposed requirement for the Orca? It's already a requirement for the gang links. Requiring mining director for the ship itself breaks the pattern of all other gang-link ships. It isn't even a requirement for capital industrial ships. What is it doing as a requirement for industrial command ships?
Warfare Link Specialist IV like other subcap command ships would be a reasonable compromise. Command Ships requires BC 5 and WLS 4. Industrial Command Ships should require a ship skill to 5 (mining barge makes the most sense even though it doesn't quite fit the Orca's major hauling role) and WLS 4. WLS is misnamed a bit, but the skill applies to mining links just the same as "real" warfare links, so requiring it for an industrial command ship skill makes sense and is reasonable.
Very nice change on the drones (now 75 bay and 50 bandwidth) and the 4th midslot (now 3-4-2 slot layout), but I'm a bit disappointed that the ship maint bay and cargo capacity remain the same. Barely over 100k m^3 (100951.3125) with maxed rigs (2x T2, 1x T1), and 400k m^3 for the ship bay only holds 2 hulks and nothing else. That makes sense if the Orca is meant to be a personal rigged ship carrier. In that role, it fits a hulk and a mackinaw and 1-2 frigates.
If the Orca is meant to hold ships for a mining op and not just personal use, 650k ship maint bay space would allow it to hold 3 Hulks + a frig, which would be somewhat more useful in its role of a highsec quasi-capital mining ship. Conveniently, that would also hold 1 BS + some small ships, eliminating the other main ship bay complaint: that the current Orca's ship bay is too small for even 1 BS.
The corp hangar boost from 30k to 40k is nice but I'd rather see the cargo volume and ship bay get some love. How about making the base cargo volume 40k (123k m^3 with expanders and T1 rigs)? With T2 rigs it would cost more than a freighter and still carry less than half of the base cargo of a jump freighter.... hardly balance-breaking in a "small freighter" role IMO.
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outopian
Gallente The Semi-Untied Union of Introverts
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Posted - 2008.11.05 09:57:00 -
[571]
Edited by: outopian on 05/11/2008 09:58:24
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Orbius Prime
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.05 14:21:00 -
[572]
need one!! [Buy cheap! TimeCards SAVES Money ] |
SpaceSlag
Gallente Catch-22
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Posted - 2008.11.05 14:30:00 -
[573]
Could somebody please post the screens of the latest Description/Attributes/Skill prerequisites/Fitting for this ship from the SiSi server?
Last time I checked, the skills were Mining Director V.
I am unable to check for myself currently. Furthermore it's nice to have it updated every so often throughout the thread.
Many thanks, Space Become a pirate without fear of death!
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.11.05 17:08:00 -
[574]
Originally by: cleocat
Don't agree with you there at all....
If you can fly a commandship, and have the right leaderhip skills you can command a mining op and give out mining bonuses without having the need to train any industry skills or training mining barge. After all, the command pilots job in a mining op is to sit somewhere in the same system, set the fleet up, and start up the mining foreman links. Doens't need to do anything else.
It's the miner who needs to have the industry skills and who needs to know how to pilot a mining barge.
Sorry I was speaking from an RP perspective.
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Orodel
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Posted - 2008.11.05 19:02:00 -
[575]
Originally by: SpaceSlag Could somebody please post the screens of the latest Description/Attributes/Skill prerequisites/Fitting for this ship from the SiSi server?
Last time I checked, the skills were Mining Director V.
I am unable to check for myself currently. Furthermore it's nice to have it updated every so often throughout the thread.
Many thanks, Space
I was on SiSi last night and the prerequisites have not changed in weeks. Other than the new skill, I will be able to fly one on either account on Tranquility, but I still can not fly one on SiSi because of mining director V. I decided that either way, I am going to train to V since I was only 13 days away, and now much less. Although I fly hulks on both accounts, and man a freighter, one of my account will often be mining directory, sitting in Orca, allowing mining drone to chip away at a few rocks, which is still better than sitting there in a regular industrial, with no mining links, one mining laser, less cargo space, not being able to move ore directly to hauler's cargo, and so forth.
Too many are complaining about what the Orca can not do. Most do low sec mining and should likely stick with the Rorqual.
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5hadow 1
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Posted - 2008.11.05 19:31:00 -
[576]
I was testing it on the server. I noticed that the maint. bay can be use by your fleet if allowed by the ship configure option. But to use the Corporate hanger You must modify the corporate wide hanger rights.
It would be nice if you can configue rights to the corp hanger in the orca just like the maint. bay for fleet only. This way you dont have to affect the rights corp. wide or just add Orca rights to the preference in the member hanger rights in the member edit window.
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5hadow 1
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Posted - 2008.11.05 21:21:00 -
[577]
Edited by: 5hadow 1 on 05/11/2008 21:22:21
Originally by: Orodel
Originally by: SpaceSlag Could somebody please post the screens of the latest Description/Attributes/Skill prerequisites/Fitting for this ship from the SiSi server?
Last time I checked, the skills were Mining Director V.
I am unable to check for myself currently. Furthermore it's nice to have it updated every so often throughout the thread.
Many thanks,
Shadow 1
http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=orcasr1.jpg Space
I was on SiSi last night and the prerequisites have not changed in weeks. Other than the new skill, I will be able to fly one on either account on Tranquility, but I still can not fly one on SiSi because of mining director V. I decided that either way, I am going to train to V since I was only 13 days away, and now much less. Although I fly hulks on both accounts, and man a freighter, one of my account will often be mining directory, sitting in Orca, allowing mining drone to chip away at a few rocks, which is still better than sitting there in a regular industrial, with no mining links, one mining laser, less cargo space, not being able to move ore directly to hauler's cargo, and so forth.
Too many are complaining about what the Orca can not do. Most do low sec mining and should likely stick with the Rorqual.
Here is a link to a picture on image shack for the info you requested.
http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=orcasr1.jpg
Hope it helps
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Thevlyn
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Posted - 2008.11.06 05:26:00 -
[578]
the skills were never mining director V, they were mining foreman 3, which was changed to director 1. and getting director 1 only takes all of what, 5-10 days? not a big deal really. ORE ships 5 (mining barge) is the killer for those who dont have it
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.06 09:06:00 -
[579]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 06/11/2008 09:06:43 I am not sure whats the point of this ship.
It is a logistic ship with far to many mining skill requirements. As a mining support ship it is not really needed, because usually during a mining ops the mining focused characters sit in their Barges and Exhumers, while those, that have not their focus on mining, are helping out hauling the the cans.
Now we get a ship that is really good at hauling cans with huge cargo bay and tractor beam bonus, but what is the point about it? When the Orca is used it usually means one fine skilled miner less in the belt, so I doubt that many miners will use this, even in 0.0.
The only Bonus that seems useful is the corporate hangar bay and the maintenance bay, but again, but why do have to focus on mining skills to use these?
Sorry, but this ship can already be considered a failure.
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Slithysss
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Posted - 2008.11.06 10:13:00 -
[580]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Sorry, but this ship can already be considered a failure.
Because you haven`t run the math, with all skills maxed, an orca with ganglinks and mindlink can give you a bonus of approx 35% in ore/hour.
With 4 hulks or more the orca actually improves the op`s total yield Should you have 4 barges mining 1 ore/hour you`ll get 4 units of ore every hour, replace 1 hulk with the orca, and you`ll get 3 units, multiplied by 1.35 makes 4.05 units of ore/hour, there you have it, orca is usefull
Furthermore, with 130.951m3 of cargo (includes corp hangar) you COULD effectively replace ALL your haulers with 1 additional orca ferrying back and forth, thus freeing up all but one of your hauler pilots to jump in a hulk.
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Fawziyyah
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Posted - 2008.11.06 10:56:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 06/11/2008 09:06:43 I am not sure whats the point of this ship.
It is a logistic ship with far to many mining skill requirements. As a mining support ship it is not really needed, because usually during a mining ops the mining focused characters sit in their Barges and Exhumers, while those, that have not their focus on mining, are helping out hauling the the cans.
Now we get a ship that is really good at hauling cans with huge cargo bay and tractor beam bonus, but what is the point about it? When the Orca is used it usually means one fine skilled miner less in the belt, so I doubt that many miners will use this, even in 0.0.
The only Bonus that seems useful is the corporate hangar bay and the maintenance bay, but again, but why do have to focus on mining skills to use these?
Sorry, but this ship can already be considered a failure.
I think that some of you still didn't get the point, CCP wants more people mining... This will make industrialists, PVPer's and mission runners (that want the Orca) to train up barges, and that will take them near to try out the mining profession. This will be a good oportunity to other pilots that have command skills, to be at their role in a mining op leaving free the maxed out hulk pilots, those just need the Orca as support ship, they can't do anything new with it alone.
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Blue Merlin
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Posted - 2008.11.06 12:42:00 -
[582]
Edited by: Blue Merlin on 06/11/2008 12:43:50 Look, I'm sorry about this but the whining is getting sillier and sillier. So a fully fitted Orca carries less than but costs more than a freighter? Well the answer seems straightforward to me but is obviously beyond the comprehension of some. I'll let somebody else do the enlightening bit.
The ship is already a fail? Totally and utterly and stupidly wrong. It has nothing to do with 0.0 - that's Rorqual territory. And you can't see the point of a ship that has a huge cargo bay and a big tractor beam? Have you actually been active in a Corps mining op? For your benefit, here's a scenario :-
Without - Mebbe 6 Hulks in a belt stripping it out, each with their own jettisoned can, haulers warp in, fly to a miner/can, get within range, empty the can without popping it, fly to the next Hulk clattering any ships or cans that may be in the way, repeat until full, warp off, another hauler warps in, goes to the first Hulk, finds an empty can, repeat ad nauseum. Of course the miners can huddle together sharing cans to help the haulers find the ore but that just means more elbowing for the hauler to get to the can. And it also means that you'll have different miners targeting/mining the same asteroid which wastes even more time than just trying to get back in range of your can because that PITA hauler pilot has just scratched the chrome again.
With - Mebbe 6 Hulks spread out in a belt, each with their own jettisoned can, Orca standing off. As each miner's can fills, the label on the can is changed to "Full", the can is zipped back to the Orca, emptied and popped. The hauler warps in and flies to the Orca, fills up from the secure corp hangar and warps off to unload. (There is also the possibility of the hauler taking over the tractor, emptying directly and topping up from the Orca). The next hauler warps in to the Orca and, if it's empty, doesn't muck about clattering everybody, it just waits until the Orca discharges another little egg just like the queen bee that it is. Having problems with a flipper who fancies trying it on with 30+ drones? Just run one (or more) of the hulks next to the Orca, close enough to be able to dock and change ships into something like, ooo, a BC or a command ship? Of course your haulers could be replaced by another Orca which would simplify things even more.
And *then* we add in the stuff like the gang mods for greater laser range and shorter cycle, mining foreman gang link bonus and being built and usable in hi-sec and this ship is a must have.
It won't replace freighters but, once you have one, you'll never bother with your fully fitted, T2 cargohold rigged, Itty 5 again (and you might like to stop costing out one of those once you reach 500 million) - yes, sometimes you need a 40,000m3 hold and a freighter is too big.
There are quite a few other scenarios where this ship is going to help out big-time.
When the Rorqual was introduced I was cynical about it's usefulness and the skill path. With the Orca, I can't wait to get my grubby little miner's hands on one. And when I illustrated how it could be used to my corpies, they've changed their skilling to get flying in one ASAP. We'll have mebbe 10 or 12 in Corps and active most of the time.
Wrong attitude :- trying to change the ship to fit your patterns of behaviour. Right attitude :- trying to change your patterns of behaviour to fit the ship.
PS and please CCP, don't let them carry BSs or not have to skill up on Mining Barge V. That would prostitute a beautiful ship.
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Baracke
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Posted - 2008.11.06 18:50:00 -
[583]
I am still confused as to why there has to be a hanger on the ship. It really doesn't serve a logical purpose.
It would make more sense to have 4 or 5 high slots for 2 or 3 links and 2 tractors. Also have a large non expandable cargo hold. Think for a minute, these ships should be nothing more than off the shelf freighters cut down to save manufacturing time and money, and allow corps to have a collection point during the mining ops for the haulers to pick up the ore. Keep it simple. Throw in the benifits for have a mining director onboard with his links and you have a great industrial support ship. I guess you could have a drone bay but why? Your sitting in the middle of a mission field or asteroid belt having a drink and watching the paint dry as the miners fill cans.
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.06 21:56:00 -
[584]
Originally by: Baracke I am still confused as to why there has to be a hanger on the ship. It really doesn't serve a logical purpose.
It would make more sense to have 4 or 5 high slots for 2 or 3 links and 2 tractors. Also have a large non expandable cargo hold. Think for a minute, these ships should be nothing more than off the shelf freighters cut down to save manufacturing time and money, and allow corps to have a collection point during the mining ops for the haulers to pick up the ore. Keep it simple. Throw in the benifits for have a mining director onboard with his links and you have a great industrial support ship. I guess you could have a drone bay but why? Your sitting in the middle of a mission field or asteroid belt having a drink and watching the paint dry as the miners fill cans.
Spoken by a true miner!
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Fiona Mars
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Posted - 2008.11.07 04:57:00 -
[585]
I think it looks just fine.
Really.
And just so we're clear, "Mining Barge" skill is mis-named, it should really be "ORE Ships" skill. If that were the case, you wouldn't see half the compliants you see in this thread.
What might make sense is lowering the "Mining Barge" skill req. for "Indi Command Ship" to 3, and making the Orca cargo bay bonus dependent on "Mining Barge" skill instead of "Indi Command Ship" - that way the "mining" skill links to a mining application, while the Command skill links to a leadership application.
But like I said, it looks just fine.
Really.
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Rupicolous
Higher Ground
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:16:00 -
[586]
Ya, originally I was hoping to use one less character for hauling and get them back into the belt harvesting, but it seems this is not possible.
First of all, if the ship requires mining barge lvl 5 (for no good reason) then there goes one of your potential harvester pilots.
Second of all, your still going to need a second hauler if you want the gang mods to remain in affect. (No Warp/Dock Etc.)
So for now, the great revelation of having a command pilot doing double duty as a hauler is nonexistant; and it doesn't help that while he sits there waiting to pull in a can, no mining can be accomplished due to incompatability of the high slots.
The ship looks incredible !!! one of the better looking ships in the game, but other than that i'll be waiting for the patch with a boost to it's purpose.
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Rupicolous
Higher Ground
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Posted - 2008.11.07 10:19:00 -
[587]
Edited by: Rupicolous on 07/11/2008 10:20:22 And a ship maintanence bay ???
O.K. ......... for the remote low sec op that will never exist.
Build a different ship for hauling rigged ships in high sec. AKA (Maintanence Freighter)
Orca is already biteing off more she can chew for her size.
(2)small new ships if not(3) are needed to fill the gaps in performance or simply create(1) large non-capital with the functions of all 3.
You give the command pilot a tractor bonus but take away his mining slots ???
You give him cargo capacity but hauling kills the gang bonus ???
We want a ship that might cost as much as a Rorqual but allows a Command pilot to mine, haul ore, and gang mod succesfully for the trifecta in mining ops.
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Ryder McGrump
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Posted - 2008.11.07 11:35:00 -
[588]
Probably been stated before...Iteron 5 with 3 cargo rigs,5 expanded 2's and then fill it with Giant secure containers....mine holds just a tad under 50000m3....2/3 bigger than the orca...but hey...nice ship :-)
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Bromboor
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:53:00 -
[589]
My 2 isk:
Its not an industrial, its a large mining barge without the capability to mine. It's requirements do not fit industrials, neither do its slots.
This is another all purpose catch all ship (like the Rorqual) which is fairly useless in empire space. In order for it to be truely effective it would require:
A. a large number of mining ships to make up for the fact that the guy piloting it can't mine AT ALL and would have probably been in a Hulk.
B. It would need to remain in space to give the gang bonuses and yet with a large group of mining ships needed for A, it will fill up to fast, but do to a lack of unmolested belts in high sec there will never be a great need for a large group of hulks.
Give it a few mid slots for some ecm or something and a friggin turret. Are you really that afraid that someone will afk mine with a 400M isk ship and a mining laser?
SO, either make it into the mining barge it already is or expand out the cargo, change the requirements and make it a real industrial.
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Layna Fraggs
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:51:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Ryder McGrump Probably been stated before...Iteron 5 with 3 cargo rigs,5 expanded 2's and then fill it with Giant secure containers....mine holds just a tad under 50000m3....2/3 bigger than the orca...but hey...nice ship :-)
hasn't been stated since its wrong. 1. it's 3/2 bigger than the orca base cargo
2. dev blog quote:
Quote: nulla large volume of different types of cargo and is split between the cargohold (30,000m3 base capacity max expandable to around 90,000m3+), a corp hangar (40,000m3)
would be a total of 130k m¦ and if you just fit t1 rigs it will still have about a 2 times larger cargo while the costs will be about the same as your t2-rigged ittyV.
and @ all the "mimimi it requires mining barge to fly and cant mine": so does the rorqual.
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Baracke
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:51:00 -
[591]
I am not a miner, but I do fly a commandship rigged to give the miners their bonuses.
This ship should be nothing more than a hybrid freighter.
1) Slots to support the mining links and tractors.
2) Large cargo hold and the ability to transfer to the haulers.
3) Since I am required to learn barge skills and have the command skills then inherent mining bonuses would be good.
Please, for the price that will be charged for this ship, keep the design simple and make it a true Empire mining operation support ship.
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Blue Merlin
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Posted - 2008.11.07 16:46:00 -
[592]
Quote: First of all, if the ship requires mining barge lvl 5 (for no good reason) then there goes one of your potential mining pilots.
See, there's this strange feature in Eve called skill training. You should try it sometime.
Quote: Second of all, your still going to need a second hauler if you want the gang mods to remain in affect. (No Warp/Dock Etc.)
If you're in a gang with few enough hulks that it doesn't need a second hauler, it's prolly going to take long enough to fill without bonus loss having much of an effect. If you're in a bigger gang, you'll have a second hauler.
Quote: but it seems this is not possible. First of all, if the ship requires mining barge lvl 5 (for no good reason) then there goes one of your potential mining pilots.
The maths has been explained previously and see above about skill training. You'ld probably complain if you were a barge pilot that you couldn't step straight into a BS.
Quote: Probably been stated before...Iteron 5 with 3 cargo rigs,5 expanded 2's and then fill it with Giant secure containers....mine holds just a tad under 50000m3....2/3 bigger than the orca...but hey...nice ship :-)
Cans - dat true (although there are some buts in there) 2/3 bigger than an Orca - dat not true. Orca is a basic 70k and can be skilled up to 130+k and mebbe you can do the can thing with it too.
Quote: but do to a lack of unmolested belts in high sec there will never be a great need for a large group of hulks.
Complete and utter gibberish. Despite what you believe, the universe isn't filled with macro miners or Chinese farmers. There are plenty of unmolested belts, there's a huge demand for trit and it's a competitive game. If you're happy to shy away from it, thanks and I'll take your share. And while I'm doing that, I'm going to do it faster and more efficiently with this boat working for me.
I also find it strange that many criticise the ship for "just" sitting near the miners handing out a bonus while apparently accepting the use of a combat ship to do the same thing with a combat pilot sitting around with his thumb up his bum getting bored rigid. And the Orca has a lot more utility than just being a bonus boat.
To be honest, it's getting so close to it's release date that those who remain unconvinced are going to stay that way. The rest of us are just going to enjoy using it.
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Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.11.07 16:55:00 -
[593]
Originally by: Ryder McGrump Probably been stated before...Iteron 5 with 3 cargo rigs,5 expanded 2's and then fill it with Giant secure containers....mine holds just a tad under 50000m3....2/3 bigger than the orca...but hey...nice ship :-)
To expand on a just prior comment to mine. The orca has a base cargo of 30,000. To figure out what it's cargo space will be:
L = Industrial Command Ship level Low = number of Cargohold Expander IIs T1 = Number of T1 cargo rigs T2 = Number of T2 cargo rigs
Total Cargo Hold = 30000 * (1.05^L) * (1.275^Low) * (1.15^T1) * (1.2^T2)
So Just being able to fly this thing, and putting the 2 Expanders = 51,207.19
L5 w/ Expanders and T1 rigs = 94,663.3
(Please note that this is before you try to eek out the max storage by putting GSCs in bot the cargo and 40,000 corp hangar) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Blue Merlin
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:02:00 -
[594]
Quote: The orca has a base cargo of 30,000.<snip> and 40,000 corp hangar)
You're arguing against yourself, without any extra equipment, mods, rigs or skills, you can carry 70k of cargo.
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:29:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Ryder McGrump Probably been stated before...Iteron 5 with 3 cargo rigs,5 expanded 2's and then fill it with Giant secure containers....mine holds just a tad under 50000m3....2/3 bigger than the orca...but hey...nice ship :-)
Yeah, cos comparing totally fitted ships to unfitted is the best way to compare! Add your expanded cargoholds and rigs and it goes over 90km3, + 40km3 corp hangar for 130 Also, thats not micro-managing the 12(?) secure cans you've got, have fun with that
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:32:00 -
[596]
And... hasn't it been said before that cargo can be actively shuffled to the maintenance bay? Those of you who are on sisi, please correct me if my assumption here is wrong; but we're talking 400k m3 here, and I don't see any reason why ore can't be shuffled back and forth when needed when your hauler warps to the orca.
Hello?! Is every person griping here because they want it for their solo macrominer?!
The orca looks awesome, and my chars will train for it asap. Still looking for a minifreighter that can cheaply haul battleships. Can only hope that's otw... (hint hint)
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:43:00 -
[597]
Originally by: Firewolf21 And... hasn't it been said before that cargo can be actively shuffled to the maintenance bay? Those of you who are on sisi, please correct me if my assumption here is wrong; but we're talking 400k m3 here, and I don't see any reason why ore can't be shuffled back and forth when needed when your hauler warps to the orca.
Hello?! Is every person griping here because they want it for their solo macrominer?!
Only ships can be placed in the ship maintenance bay, no ore/minerals/anything. You can however place charges (ammo) in the ships within the maintenance bay so you can technically shove expanded ships in there to move a ton of ammo, but it's a bit pointless. Sum it all up, theres ~130km3 available for mining/non-ship related hauling purposes.
And yeah, I'm loving the people that are gutted it can't hold the ore from an entire belt in their hold etc etc. Adapt to fit the ship, don't moan and moan until the ship fits exactly how you want it to work.
Quote:
The orca looks awesome, and my chars will train for it asap. Still looking for a minifreighter that can cheaply haul battleships. Can only hope that's otw... (hint hint)
Agreed.
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Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:45:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Blue Merlin About 15 pages back, somebody got on to sisi and had the cargohold up to over 100k.
With T2 rigs, and no GSCs give 107,555.3 using the formula that I just posted - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.11.07 18:01:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Firewolf21 And... hasn't it been said before that cargo can be actively shuffled to the maintenance bay? ...
At most, you will be able to put ammo and crystals in the cargo of the ships, but I haven't tried. You can't have anything other than ammo or crystals in the hold when you put the ship in the maint bay while in station.
Originally by: Firewolf21 Hello?! Is every person griping here because they want it for their solo macrominer?!
I've never griped about the Orca, in fact, I've argued for limiting the ship (while lessening the req skills) to give room for specialized T2 variants of the ship. (Indy Support, meaning this ship, then a T2 Indy Command then a T2 Indy Mover, or whatever I called it at teh time)
The people wanting more of this and that, without putting miners in the Highs have some points, but I don't agree with most of them. Those that want to put miners on this, are for solo/macro mining, and that is not what this ship is about.
Originally by: Firewolf21 The orca looks awesome, and my chars will train for it asap. Still looking for a minifreighter that can cheaply haul battleships. Can only hope that's otw... (hint hint)
Agree on the looks, very clean. Gonna get one as soon as I can and after my alt is going to switch over to it as well. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Miraqu
Caldari Amarrian Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.08 11:35:00 -
[600]
I like that ship. It will make just a great hauler between the 0.0 Belts and a POS.
Since the skill requirements are just ridiculous for any halfway dedicated industrial corp, almost everyone in those corps can fly it.
Adversely I think its rather a better hauler than a command ship. The Rorqual can sit safely at the POS in siege mode and you can move the cans with the tractor beams.
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Lionel Redstar
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Posted - 2008.11.08 13:32:00 -
[601]
Are the patchnotes wrong or the stats of the orca are already nerfed: Patchnotes: Slots: 3/3/2 Drones: 50m3/25 Mbit/sec bandwidth Devblog: 3 hi / 4 med / 2 low slots 75m3 drone bay / 50 Mbit/sec bandwidth
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Bromboor
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:11:00 -
[602]
Quote: but do to a lack of unmolested belts in high sec there will never be a great need for a large group of hulks.
Complete and utter gibberish. Despite what you believe, the universe isn't filled with macro miners or Chinese farmers. There are plenty of unmolested belts, there's a huge demand for trit and it's a competitive game. If you're happy to shy away from it, thanks and I'll take your share. And while I'm doing that, I'm going to do it faster and more efficiently with this boat working for me.
To be honest, it's getting so close to it's release date that those who remain unconvinced are going to stay that way. The rest of us are just going to enjoy using it.
Well if you have such nice belts, then by all means post where they are and I'll be glad to show you what I mean. I've one days without finding a rock that a T1 strip couldn't kill with a single cycle. I'm down to mission mining.
You feel free to enjoy it though, spend the money. I already have a hauler with an Iteron V.
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Scruffy Jed
Rho Holding Corp GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.08 15:44:00 -
[603]
I guess it's too much to hope for that CCP would fix all their current broken content before adding more. Furthermore, |
Meldorn Vaash
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.08 17:23:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Lionel Redstar Are the patchnotes wrong or the stats of the orca are already nerfed: Patchnotes: Slots: 3/3/2 Drones: 50m3/25 Mbit/sec bandwidth Devblog: 3 hi / 4 med / 2 low slots 75m3 drone bay / 50 Mbit/sec bandwidth
I'm hoping the patchnotes are wrong...
I guess we wait and see... "A poorly fitted ship is just wreckage waiting to be salvaged" |
Xaenucs
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Posted - 2008.11.08 23:41:00 -
[605]
Edited by: Xaenucs on 08/11/2008 23:43:11 It overlaps with the role of freighters the cargo bay is pretty damn big and it's significantly cheaper than freigthers
unless it has a module that reduce speed by 100% then the cargohold becomes big then it's ok...
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5hadow 1
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Posted - 2008.11.09 01:14:00 -
[606]
Me and my corp have been playing with this ship in Sisi for a week now and it's just what the doctor ordered. If you use a little team work and work with the tools that CCP gave you with this ship it is wonderful. I just wish they would make the skills a little more harder to get to keep the micro miners out of them. It is purly a support ship and with two of them corporate mining ops in secure space will be a breeze. And as for can flippers this will be the death of them. A hanger to grab stuff out of and into eliminates the need for jet can mining. The only thing a flipper can do now is just bump you off your rocks and **** off like the loser they are or war deck you. They get nothing. Ahhhhhh. I love it.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.09 12:19:00 -
[607]
Another use for the Orca is exploration.....
Stash all the ships needed in the Orca and fly it on an alt. Your main character can then switch between different ships for probing/salvaging/hacking/fighting/mining as needed.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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PhantomMajor
Minmatar De-Medusa Industries.
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Posted - 2008.11.09 14:16:00 -
[608]
well this ship now allows the macro miners total domination of eve, as they will be able to mine 23/7 in total knowledge that concord will protect them.
the only way that i can see this being stopped is the disbandment of the new player corps, or a time limit of one month placed on people, which would either force them to make thier own corp or be deposited into npc corps which can be war decked.
with macro miners using these ships 23/7 the ice fields will be dominated by them in a matter of months along with normal roid belts. this will have a disaterous effect on the market as prices will fall significantly unless you alter the game mechanics regarding the macro mining new corps
Ladies and gentlemen, we will shortly be experiencing some exploding followed by some crashing...so i'd hold on if i were you! |
Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.11.09 14:42:00 -
[609]
Originally by: PhantomMajor well this ship now allows the macro miners total domination of eve, as they will be able to mine 23/7 in total knowledge that concord will protect them.
the only way that i can see this being stopped is the disbandment of the new player corps, or a time limit of one month placed on people, which would either force them to make thier own corp or be deposited into npc corps which can be war decked.
with macro miners using these ships 23/7 the ice fields will be dominated by them in a matter of months along with normal roid belts. this will have a disaterous effect on the market as prices will fall significantly unless you alter the game mechanics regarding the macro mining new corps
You cannot use the corp hangar unless you're in a player corp => macro miners cannot use it to mine without jetcanning, or joining a corp that you can wardec.
If they are just using it for hauling or for boosting, there are faster to train and cheaper alternatives for both roles, which already exist(why spend all the time training for an orca and forking out for a 400mil+ship which will eventually be deleted by GMs when you can use a cheap iteron?). There really isn't a problem here.
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Forest Love
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Posted - 2008.11.09 21:00:00 -
[610]
if the ship dose not have ore compression the 90k to 40k cargo will not be big enough for a 4 hulk mining operation and would fill quickly, their for fail as a good mobile mining base. It will only take 2 to 3 loads from each of the 4 hulks to fill the Orca. meaning that the operation can only last 30 to 45 minutes long. which means u have to have a station in system that can process the ore or a hauler to take it to a system with a station that can process the ore. The Orca should be able handle a mining operation for at lest 2 or 3 hours or longer, which it can do with only 2 hulks but the time frame would be even sorter if their was 6 or 8 hulks in the mining operation. For the 1 to 2 billion that it will take to buy or make a Orca a carp might be better off using a hauler or 2 in high space then with the Orca. In my opinion if the Orca has ore compression it will be a fantastic ship, if it dose not have ore compression then it will not be worth isk to buy it.
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.11.09 22:29:00 -
[611]
A mazed out Orca can carry 4.7 cans. 4.7272727272...... My Maxed out Mining Alt can mine 1963m3 per beam per cycle. it takes less than 15 minutes to fill a can, without using drones. With 4 of my corpies mining, and using drones, we wil fil the or ca in 15 minutes. At which point, we will be right back where we were without he Orca, running three haulers to keep up, or alternatively using another Orca to haul with, which WOULD save running three haulers, what remains to be seen is if it will be capable of keeping up since it will go to warp much slower than a hauler.
The Orca will not be 2 bil isks. It's projected construction cost will be around 400 mil. A fair price to sell it will be about 480 mil. The first ones off the lines will sell for as High as the people selling them for can make it. After a while the prices should solidify at around 500 mil or a little less. I will probably sell them when I can make a fair 20%, when prices drop below that I will stop the sales.
Macro Miners; My Philosophy on them, is that they are not a reason to penalize the rest of us. By cranking up Concord, the option to suicide them was more or less removed. Macro Miners are CCP's problem to deal with, they are the ones with the Ban hammer. It is only my oppinion, but the pessimists that use Macro Miners as an excuse NOT to do something only hurt those of us that ar not Macro Miners. When I find them, I report them, beyond that, i would ask everyone to please leave them out of the forums. Every thread I have ever seen about mining, has some statement like; "Oh Sure, Lets help the Maco Miners." I have to wonder about the people posting them, and their motivations, because they are obviously not in the thread to help the rest of us. It was stated, that in a future expansion that there was a possibility of adding an ORE ONLY cargo bay to the Orca. My Hopes for this ship are tied to that statement, or, the ability to access its hold from a freighter sometime in the future. Otherwise, I would have to agree with everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small. Cheers!
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Fiona Mars
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Posted - 2008.11.10 01:35:00 -
[612]
Originally by: Scruffy Jed I guess it's too much to hope for that CCP would fix all their current broken content before adding more.
Good, helpful comment that. ty.
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Fiona Mars
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Posted - 2008.11.10 01:36:00 -
[613]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar
A mazed out Orca can carry 4.7 cans. 4.7272727272...... My Maxed out Mining Alt can mine 1963m3 per beam per cycle. it takes less than 15 minutes to fill a can, without using drones. With 4 of my corpies mining, and using drones, we wil fil the or ca in 15 minutes. At which point, we will be right back where we were without he Orca, running three haulers to keep up, or alternatively using another Orca to haul with, which WOULD save running three haulers, what remains to be seen is if it will be capable of keeping up since it will go to warp much slower than a hauler.
The Orca will not be 2 bil isks. It's projected construction cost will be around 400 mil. A fair price to sell it will be about 480 mil. The first ones off the lines will sell for as High as the people selling them for can make it. After a while the prices should solidify at around 500 mil or a little less. I will probably sell them when I can make a fair 20%, when prices drop below that I will stop the sales.
Macro Miners; My Philosophy on them, is that they are not a reason to penalize the rest of us. By cranking up Concord, the option to suicide them was more or less removed. Macro Miners are CCP's problem to deal with, they are the ones with the Ban hammer. It is only my oppinion, but the pessimists that use Macro Miners as an excuse NOT to do something only hurt those of us that ar not Macro Miners. When I find them, I report them, beyond that, i would ask everyone to please leave them out of the forums. Every thread I have ever seen about mining, has some statement like; "Oh Sure, Lets help the Maco Miners." I have to wonder about the people posting them, and their motivations, because they are obviously not in the thread to help the rest of us. It was stated, that in a future expansion that there was a possibility of adding an ORE ONLY cargo bay to the Orca. My Hopes for this ship are tied to that statement, or, the ability to access its hold from a freighter sometime in the future. Otherwise, I would have to agree with everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small. Cheers!
My eyes are bleeding now.
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Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.11.10 02:05:00 -
[614]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar ... or alternatively using another Orca to haul with, which WOULD save running three haulers, what remains to be seen is if it will be capable of keeping up since it will go to warp much slower than a hauler.
Using your numbers, unless having to go out of system far a station, an Orca as a haule will be able to keep up, I'm thinking easily, but that's to be seen.
Originally by: Kalderion Mar ... Otherwise, I would have to agree with everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small.
Maxed out (L4, Expanders & T1+ 2xT2 Optimizations) 103k m3 + 40k (Assuming in a corp) = 143k ... Not bad at all. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Max Essen
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.10 02:09:00 -
[615]
Edited by: Max Essen on 10/11/2008 02:09:24 Kind of concerned about the Orca BPO still.
We are only a few days from deployment and the Capital construction values still seem a bit out of wack when compared to the Rorq. I will not go into details as many others have posted the same.
Assuming this is the final disposition, so be it. I will still be in line to buy or build one fairly early. Well, after the initial "****" of the early adopters is over.
Real Men Structure-Tank
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Ahsekuaw
Brother Theo's Monastery
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Posted - 2008.11.10 04:37:00 -
[616]
Edited by: Ahsekuaw on 10/11/2008 04:37:59 I've checked out the Orca on SISI. It's a cool ship and I like the concept. However, I feel it's falling short on a couple of fronts. First and formost is the cargo capacity. Pimping it up to 90K just isn't going to cut it. Using round numbers, a pair of hulks with will produce roughly 30K m3 of ore in roughly 9 minutes. More with gang bonuses. That means you are out of space in 27 minutes. It will take you another 10 minutes to fill the corp hanger bay. So in 37 minutes you've maxed out the entire cargo capacity of this ship. 4 Hulks will max this ship out 18.5 minutes. Please enable ore compression. As it stands now, I can't justify that much isk for a ship that I will frequently have to head back to base to offload or dump to a hauler when that hauler pilot could be in a Covetor or Hulk. I think this ship should have the ability to stay in the belts for a minimum of 2 and a half hours.
It takes this ship 41 seconds to do a 180 and go to warp (yes, I timed it). Can the turning speed be polished just a touch to say roughly 25 or 30 seconds to do a 180?
Drone space. A Hulk has 50m3. This is a sub cap. Can't we bump that to 125 m3?
High slots. I'd love the ability to slot in a couple of strip miners with this in addition to a tracor and gang mods. So how about 5 high slots?
Here's the skill tradeoff. Mining Director Level 4 and Warfare Link Specialist to Level 5.
My 2 cents.
Ahs
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Kellen Tavadon
Caldari Orion Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.10 06:16:00 -
[617]
I'd like to point a few things out since no one seems to have figured it out after 22 pages:
1. It only can fit up to 2 Mining Links + 1 Tractor because YOU DON'T NEED the Capacitor reducing Mining Link. If you're working with Hulks, Retrievers, whatever..it doesn't need them 'less you mine by activating and deactivating your lasers on and off a million times.
2. It's built as a moving container that can buff miners and tractor in ore of fellow miners that are far away. Think of it as a jet-can ship.
3. It won't get ore compression. It'll never happen because there's no need. There's tons of ore in Empire space and it's not like someone is going to shoot you if you're caught mining up here. Ror has it cause in 0.0 you want to get all the ore you can before the alliance who owns that belt finds you there :P
4. Mining Barge V, why? IT'S MADE BY ORE! OMG people it's made by the damn EVE universe MINING CORPORATION! No duh it has Mining Barge as a req. HELL! Ror has that same reqs! If you're gonna ***** over this then why aren't we *****ing over why Ror isn't a Transport V req'd as well?
5. More than likely nothing from these 22 pages of whining will get anywhere since the Orca has all it's features and numbers stamped in tritanium and it'll never change.
Oh and Lord Drack sucks.
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nvis
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Posted - 2008.11.10 08:11:00 -
[618]
man it needs at least 4 hi slots that could equip strip minners. cuz not all industrialist are in a corp. other than that its a great ship and will help out on alot of areas gogd job all n' all though
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Ko Shimin
Minmatar Independent Terran Empire Terran Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.10 10:07:00 -
[619]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar
A mazed out Orca can carry 4.7 cans. 4.7272727272...... My Maxed out Mining Alt can mine 1963m3 per beam per cycle. it takes less than 15 minutes to fill a can, without using drones. With 4 of my corpies mining, and using drones, we wil fil the or ca in 15 minutes. At which point, we will be right back where we were without he Orca, running three haulers to keep up, or alternatively using another Orca to haul with, which WOULD save running three haulers, what remains to be seen is if it will be capable of keeping up since it will go to warp much slower than a hauler. Cheers!
Have 20 miners mine, Orca gathering the stuff into it's hangars and a nearby freighter taking the stuff from the Orca hangar to it's own cargohold.. sweet
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Athamai
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Posted - 2008.11.10 14:36:00 -
[620]
Originally by: CCP Fallout This is the news weÆve all been waiting for! That whale of a ship, the Orca, will hit Singularity soon, and CCP Chronotis has written a dev blog on this long-awaited, upcoming addition to the game.
ChronotisÆ blog includes not only extensive details about the Orca, but a screenshot as well. You can read all about it by pointing your browser here.
Ship is pretty worthless without ore compression... It certainly can't be used as a hauler because it's the command ship so that leaves a link bonus(nice) and ability to store crystals...big deal. You could use it as a glorified storage can for ore but that's kinda weak for 400 million ISK.
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.10 15:50:00 -
[621]
The T2 cargo rigs will cost more than this ship.
After I tested the Orca on sisi when it was first released, I came to the conclusion that this ship shouldn't cost more than a freighter. I'm still convinced of this. But to get the most out of it you will need some T2 cargo rigs.
They will be very expensive when they hit the market most likely. It's a big hauler with mining gang links in the hi slots. Nothing more.
But I will have one.
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Mini Mizer
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Posted - 2008.11.10 20:20:00 -
[622]
More Turrets, More Drones, More slots, Allow it more configuration options.
more more more please
need more options for everything in EVE...
How about some new skills to allow new options, like an additional slot or more drone space or more bandwidth or a new implant.
Would like additional diverse setups that are worthwhile on ships.
GL
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.11.10 20:57:00 -
[623]
Originally by: Thorson Wiles
Originally by: Kalderion Mar ... or alternatively using another Orca to haul with, which WOULD save running three haulers, what remains to be seen is if it will be capable of keeping up since it will go to warp much slower than a hauler.
Using your numbers, unless having to go out of system far a station, an Orca as a haule will be able to keep up, I'm thinking easily, but that's to be seen.
Originally by: Kalderion Mar ... Otherwise, I would have to agree with everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small.
Maxed out (L4, Expanders & T1+ 2xT2 Optimizations) 103k m3 + 40k (Assuming in a corp) = 143k ... Not bad at all.
Aye Thorson, its not often I mine in a system with a station. was originally my hope that this thing would make mining two or three jumps from a station an easier thing to do. |
Exxon Longbow
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Posted - 2008.11.10 22:23:00 -
[624]
Edited by: Exxon Longbow on 10/11/2008 22:25:30 I hope CCP will address how they mislead many players into thinking the Orca is a semi hauler. For 400mil i would expect half of the cargo capacity of a freighter without any rigs at all. Why the hell would a hauler train up all that mining leadership and barge skills for a ship with a base load less than that of a pimped itty V? Orca doesn't fill the gap between the industrial and the freighter. Its a glorified jetcan with commandlink capabilities.
Whilst I believe the Orca will be good for mining operations, we still need a pure hauling ship that fills the gap between the badger and charon or itty and obelisk
For those who cant be bothered reading my rant: ORCA IS NOT FOR HAULING - IT IS NOT A HAULING SHIP ORCA DOES NOT FILL GAP BETWEEN INDUSTRIAL / FREIGHTER
- Ship Baseload Cost ISK/m3 ratio
Itty V 6000 .95mil 158.3 ISK/m3 Badger II 5250 .78mil 148.6 ISK/m3 Obelisk 750000 850mil 1133.3 ISK/m3 Charon 785000 850mil 1082.8 ISK/m3 Orca 30000 400mil 13333.3 ISK/m3 OrcaPimped 100000 400mil 4000 ISK/m3
But yes Orca is a good ship for organised mining, point of this post is to inform those who are solely into hauling and less informed in the logistics side of things. So to all those haulers out there, sorry this ship ain't for you - keep waiting... |
Darth Vaders
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:25:00 -
[625]
Orca is the one of the greatest ships of the game. Congrats CCP! It can fill a variety of roles being mining buddy, looting ship for missions, high sec carrier , and very good hauler filling a gap between the freighters and the transport ships.
It is good that is needs mining barde to 5. It's a way to reward a bit those players that spend their time to train as miners instead of flying fancy HACs and do some pew pew. (i for one)
For several reasons i never use the Hulk i posess and i prefer runing missions with my alt in a different account. Now this Orca addition will be very rewarding for this character that till now was feeling like he had wasted his time training mining bardge to 5 for nothing since mining is not very profitable business compaired to other things.
Now with the Orca new potential for carreer is opened to all these neglected miners like me and i have to thank you for that CCP once more |
Raczak
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:05:00 -
[626]
this ship looks great, but if its suppose to help out for mining ops, why not have 4 high slots? 3 for your mind links and 1 for your tractor beam
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Immersive
Immersive Technology Solutions
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:26:00 -
[627]
I swear, some people read to the end of the OP and then TL;DR, straight to the end.
Cargo Hold too small? don't fly it, stick with your fleet of Iteron V's.
Can't use it in NPC Corps? Create your own corp, it's a once off fee of a few mil, and free thereafter.
Can't use it solo? it's an Mining Command ship, it's not supposed to be solo.
Can't Command and Haul? Can't e-war and tackle at the same time either. Pick a purpose and fit for that purpose. If the purpose changes later, refit it.
But the macrominers? Can't use corp hangar unless you're in a player corp.
So if they're not in a Player Corp? Nothing changes except it doesn't warp as often, they still jet-can mine.
Ok, what if they ARE in a Player Corp? War Dec!
--- New to the API? GrabRaw XML
It's coming...
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Psyche Lock
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:18:00 -
[628]
Most macro miners I see just use a hulk with cargo expanders and eat 1 roid at a time until full, then they dump off, come back, rinse repeat. Avoids the can flippers, the drone molesters, etc. Their tanks are enough to not die to any NPC rats before their hold fills up.
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Blue Merlin
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:45:00 -
[629]
Edited by: Blue Merlin on 13/11/2008 17:53:35 Edited by: Blue Merlin on 13/11/2008 17:47:18 Well, it's been released and we're busy building and MEing and explaining about job queues and construction times to prospective clients so it's too late for those who won't. But it's never too late to try and explain, even to those who refuse to understand.
Quote: if the ship dose not have ore compression the 90k to <snip> then it will not be worth isk to buy it.
Well it will be worth it and possible reasons for doing so have been explained but, if you don't think so, then don't buy it. Problem solved.
Quote: It takes this ship 41 seconds to do a 180 and go to warp (yes, I timed it). Can the turning speed be polished just a touch to say roughly 25 or 30 seconds to do a 180?
Ah yes, somebody who doesn't know how to fly a ship. You have a little control called "Align to" - there is no need to even consider turning speed if you align before filling your cargo space.
Quote: Orca___________30000_____400mil_____13333.3 ISK/m3
FFS, this has been already been explained in detail. The baseload is not 30,000m3, it's 71,500m3.
Quote: Why the hell would a hauler train up all that mining leadership and barge skills for a ship with a base load less than that of a pimped itty V?
Because a pimped out/up Itty 5 costs a lot more than a basic Orca and carries a lot less?
Quote: Well if you have such nice belts, then by all means post where they are
And still you don't get it - you need to get out a bit more and find some new spots - I've not had any problems. And I won't bother with the bit about helping competitors on to a level playing field and stuff like that.
Quote: It's a big hauler with mining gang links in the hi slots. Nothing more. But I will have one.
Congratulations on missing out on the other situations when this boat can be used.
Quote: For the 1 to 2 billion that it will take to buy or make a Orca
Complete and utter cobblers and that's without mentioning that a mining corps can get all the minerals by mining.
Quote: everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small
It's not everyone's assessment, just the opinion of those who don't understand.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.11.14 08:40:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Blue Merlin Complete and utter cobblers and that's without mentioning that a mining corps can get all the minerals by mining.
So, the minerals the corp mined don't have any value?... |
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.14 12:56:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Blue Merlin
Quote: It's a big hauler with mining gang links in the hi slots. Nothing more. But I will have one.
Congratulations on missing out on the other situations when this boat can be used.
We'll be using it to replace the hauler for ice and ore mining, making adjustments as needed. Most ore mining will be in mission fields anyway but occasionally in stationless systems. This will be with Industrial Command Ship 5 (once I get there), Mining Director 5, Warfare Specialist 5, Foreman implant, Gang Links, maxed out Exhumer pilots (no Michi) and T2 fitted ships. For everyday mining, I'd say that our situation will be just fine.
So explain to me the other situations. |
Knightscot
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:47:00 -
[632]
Geeeesh, here we go...there is always one or two who have not even bothered to read the main body of the thread before posting and criticising the views of those who think that this ship could be so much better than it is...although granted they (CCP) cannot and will not please every one but it would be nice to get a ship that fills a particular void...
Quote: But it's never too late to try and explain, even to those who refuse to understand.
How so, so basically you are saying that all who have a differing view from you and CCP do not understand why the devs make their plans or ideas and carry them out and implement their ideals as to what a ship should do or be...?
Quote: It's a big hauler with mining gang links in the hi slots. Nothing more.
It is a hauler, there is no escape from that fact. So why should Mining Barge Lvl 5 be a pre-requisite skill.
Quote: Congratulations on missing out on the other situations when this boat can be used.
Huh, explain, give us the benefit of your percieved wisdom, sorry I do not see any other situation other than what the devs foresee for this ship...Again like all who question it's failings and limitations we are not blessed with your foresight and experience...please do tell us...like I said in my last post on page 20 of this thread... Originally by: knightscot the savvy among you will find other uses for this ship other than for what it what intended...
so if you can foresee anything else please enlighten us...
Quote: everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small
This is fact...it is a sub capital ship, supposed to fill the gap between Industrial and freighter...I don't know about you but to me to fill the gap between industrial and freighter...this ship needs a cargo hold of at least 100,000m3 before skill levels and mods and rigs added to be able to fill that gap...unless as I have mentioned before (see my post on page 20)they (CCP) intend to release another ship filling the gap between Industrial and Freighter at around 500,000m3 either a T2 or T3 Industrial cargo vessel.
Quote: It's not everyone's assessment, just the opinion of those who don't understand.
you really are an idiot...quite clearly you have not even bothered to read the information being given in this thread regarding the Orca and it's supposed benefits to not only a corp but the individual/solo industrialist... Any corp flying this ship will in effect be a miner down due to the fact that it requires a miner to pilot it...and that pilot would be better utilised in either a coveter or a hulk depending on their skill level.
KS
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:59:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Knightscot
Quote: It's a big hauler with mining gang links in the hi slots. Nothing more.
It is a hauler, there is no escape from that fact. So why should Mining Barge Lvl 5 be a pre-requisite skill.
My comments were about what I thought the cost of the ships should be and that it's a big hauler. You would have to ask CCP about their choice of required skills. I only had to train one new skill to fly it, Industrial Command Ships. I already had every other required skill trained so I really didn't look to see what they were. Honestly, I still don't know what they are.
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Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:34:00 -
[634]
Quote: Geeeesh, here we go...there is always one or two who have not even bothered to read the main body of the thread before posting and criticising the views of those who think that this ship could be so much better than it is...although granted they (CCP) cannot and will not please every one but it would be nice to get a ship that fills a particular void...
Having read this entire thread, and the couple others that exist, let me give you ideas on each of your points. (These are just my opinions, since very little official, other than the Orca going live, has been presented by CCP after their original announcement) Quote: How so, so basically you are saying that all who have a differing view from you and CCP do not understand why the devs make their plans or ideas and carry them out and implement their ideals as to what a ship should do or be...?
When the ship had immediate deficiencies, they were pointed out and were implanted. Three items come immediately to mind, a 4th mid slot, a buff to the drone bay, and allowing 3 gang links. Others, myself included asked for a 4th high-slot, but that wasn’t a fix, just a wish and wasn’t/isn’t required. One wish did get implemented, and that was a boost to the corporate hangar. Quote: It is a hauler, there is no escape from that fact. So why should Mining Barge Lvl 5 be a pre-requisite skill.
Reading through the entire threads has an unofficial yet entirely logical answer. Just like the Rorqual, this is an ORE ship, and a darned big one at that, with Command Ship capabilities. There aren’t many ORE skills to spread the requirements like on a CS so to make this ship take some time to get into if you are not one of the target audience, require their only T1 skill be 5. Think that the skill Mining Barge is actually called ORE Ships, and the issue goes away. Quote: Huh, explain, give us the benefit of your percieved wisdom, sorry I do not see any other situation other than what the devs foresee for this ship...Again like all who question it's failings and limitations we are not blessed with your foresight and experience...please do tell us...like I said in my last post on page 20 of this thread... if you can foresee anything else please enlighten us...
If you read the various Orca threads, a great other role was presented about this being the base for exploration. Alt flies the Orca while the main swaps/refits ships from the Maint Bay as required during the exploration session. I’ll be doing this. Now you and I need to figure out other things to do with it, but I don’t expect people to post other uses. Quote: This is fact...it is a sub capital ship, supposed to fill the gap between Industrial and freighter...I don't know about you but to me to fill the gap between industrial and freighter...this ship needs a cargo hold of at least 100,000m3 before skill levels and mods and rigs added to be able to fill that gap...unless as I have mentioned before (see my post on page 20)they (CCP) intend to release another ship filling the gap between Industrial and Freighter at around 500,000m3 either a T2 or T3 Industrial cargo vessel.
As I’ve posted, I’d love to see T2 versions of this ship that specialize in Freight and Command, but that would require the reduction of the ship that was presented, but people didn’t like that because they want the best ship now. The max cargo of this ship currently is 143,073.8m3 (103k+ if not in a corp) which is about 40% of an average Jump Freighter and 3.35 times the hold of a maxed Iteron 5. The capacity fits well. (Your idea of 100k before mods would assuming the same slots, put make ship larger than a JF) Quote: stuff (last paragraph)
When has CCP ever said that it would benefit an individual or solo industrialist? People want it to, but I don't. A corp that normally flies 4 hulks and a hauler will be about even, but probably have better yield by replacing a hulk with an Orca. (4 hulks + and Orca is > 5 Hulks.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Blue Merlin
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Posted - 2008.11.16 12:57:00 -
[635]
Edited by: Blue Merlin on 16/11/2008 12:57:46
Quote: Quote:But it's never too late to try and explain, even to those who refuse to understand.
How so, so basically you are saying that all who have a differing view from you and CCP do not understand why the devs make their plans or ideas and carry them out and implement their ideals as to what a ship should do or be...?
No, basically what I'm saying is that there are people commenting here who won't read or refuse to comprehend what has been written - pretty much people like you.
Quote: Quote:Congratulations on missing out on the other situations when this boat can be used.
Huh, explain, give us the benefit of your percieved wisdom, sorry I do not see any other situation other than what the devs foresee for this ship...Again like all who question it's failings and limitations we are not blessed with your foresight and experience...please do tell us...like I said in my last post on page 20 of this thread...
Err, no. I shall just do the happy dance because you're another one who can't or won't see (and it's got nothing to do with what the devs foresee for the ship). There are some contributing to the thread who can see and jolly well done to them for adapting and improving.
Quote: Quote:It's not everyone's assessment, just the opinion of those who don't understand.
you really are an idiot...quite clearly you have not even bothered to read the information being given in this thread regarding the Orca and it's supposed benefits to not only a corp but the individual/solo industrialist... Any corp flying this ship will in effect be a miner down due to the fact that it requires a miner to pilot it...and that pilot would be better utilised in either a coveter or a hulk depending on their skill level.
Oh deary, deary me! You really lost the plot on this one. The context of my quote is "Otherwise, I would have to agree with everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small." Mea culpa because I didn't cater for the idiots who haven't bothered to read the thread before commenting. But then you already knew the source of my quote because you used the text in your previous point FFS :-
Quote: Quote:everyone's assessment that the cargo space is too small
This is fact...it is a sub capital ship, supposed to fill the gap between
Somewhere, a village is missing it's idiot - feeling homesick?
Finally (I hope), for all of those that believe possession of Mining Barge 5 (+ Exhumer) is all you need to be a miner, you clearly have no idea what's needed to be a miner. Here's another clue for the clueless :- http://www.eve-online.com/bitmaps/guide/completeminersguide_v2.2.pdf
And it doesn't take 60+ pages just to say "Get Mining Barge 5".
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.11.17 09:28:00 -
[636]
Originally by: Knightscot This is fact...it is a sub capital ship, supposed to fill the gap between Industrial and freighter...
Hm. Did CCP actually say that the orca is the long-awaited mini-freighter? It IS a hauler, no doubt, but I wouldn't call it a mini-freighter. It's cargo is too fragmented for that(carg+corp hangar + likely GSC to increase). |
Knightscot
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:02:00 -
[637]
Thorson...you make some valid points regarding the ship and it's skill requirements and they are logical in their presentation. I would like to counter them by saying that in an ideal world we could train and max out each and every skill in the game but to do that would take a long time to achieve and therefore we can only train and choose to train those skills relevant to a character doing a particular role. I was arguing the case, as I am sure you are aware that the Orca is basically a hauler, it is not a mining vessel. I understand and appreciate where you are coming from when you link and coralate the ORE & DCM skills for mining barges and exhumers.
Quote: There arenÆt many ORE skills to spread the requirements like on a CS so to make this ship take some time to get into if you are not one of the target audience, require their only T1 skill be 5. Think that the skill Mining Barge is actually called ORE Ships, and the issue goes away.
Perhaps, a skill for ORE ships separate from Mining Barges would be an acceptable alternative then that way no one needs to train to be a miner before being able to fly this ship...
Quote: If you read the various Orca threads, a great other role was presented about this being the base for exploration. Alt flies the Orca while the main swaps/refits ships from the Maint Bay as required during the exploration session. IÆll be doing this. Now you and I need to figure out other things to do with it, but I donÆt expect people to post other uses.
Yes, I have indeed considered the permutations as to how this ship can be used, like I have stated in previous posts, the savvy amongst the EvE universe pilots will no doubt find other uses for this ship. This is why CCP Chronotis describes the Orca as a "Jack of all trades but master of none" (see his post on page 10 of this thread)
Quote: Your idea of 100k before mods would assuming the same slots, put make ship larger than a JF
I was overstating and being optimistic about the size of the cargo that would have been really nice but I knew it was never an option altough I think an increase to 50,000m3 would not have been unreasonable, I was merely exaggerating to make a point...
Quote: When has CCP ever said that it would benefit an individual or solo industrialist?
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=597 What is the role of the Orca? it is ideal for the day to day needs of corporations or individuals.
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Did CCP actually say that the orca is the long-awaited mini-freighter? It IS a hauler, no doubt, but I wouldn't call it a mini-freighter.
Sorry, the term mini freighter isn't actually used by CCP in it's description of the ship, it was a term I picked up reading other peoples posts on the ship. The size of the cargo hold and corp hanger lead me believe that at some point CCP intend to release another industrial ship bigger than the Orca but possibly smaller than the freighters. And then perhaps at some point a T2 Freighter dwarfing the current freighter class ships...
Quote: All you have to comprehend is that it doesn't take 60+ pages just to say "Get Mining Barge 5".
LOL @ you I expected your flame but go on flame away Oh, I understand more and comprehend more than you do apparently...you have failed totally missing my point and argument. I thought/suspected you were an idiot, I didn't think you would actually confirm it...I am sure the village in question is your own and you will fill the gap nicely...enjoy your new status...or role for all I know you may even be your corp idiot...
In summary, all these arguments are academic now as the ship has been released into the game it is unlikely that I will post any further on the matter. It just saddens me that individuals come on here and spout of about and sound off when people who can see a good ship and could be a great ship but then something is added that makes the ship not so good, great or lacking.
KS |
Plundaar
Golden Orb Technology inc
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:31:00 -
[638]
Yes I see there have been many replys. Yes I understand questions have probably already been asked.
Heres my only problem with the Orca:
Quote: The Orca is a collaboration between Outer Ring Excavations and Deep Core Mining Inc. Designed as a "sub capital" logistical ship with a mining command focus, it is ideal for the day to day needs of corporations or individuals. It is perhaps a stepping stone towards capital ships, filling a void between the regular and capital class ships making it more affordable with a wider range of use in all areas of space as it can use stargates and does not have a jump drive.
I do not see this as a sub capital logistical ship. It's not the little brother/sister of the Rorqual.
Quote: To that end, the Rorqual's primary strength lies in its ability to grind raw ores into particles of smaller size than possible before, while still maintaining their distinctive molecular structure. This means the vessel is able to carry vast amounts of ore in compressed form.
What we have here is a slightly smaller mothership. I do not see the capital industrial primary strength. This is an attempt to mix a command ship, an industrial, and a mothership.
Quote: 250% bonus to range of tractor beams (70km) 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity (1km sec) 500% bonus to survey scanner range (~125km) Can fit gang mods
It has no turret slots, thus it is unable to mine with anything other than drones. What is the purpose of a survey scanner? It appears that it can not fit a captial tractor beam either which is another mising industrial primary item. Seeing as the ship cargohold is 40,000 for a corp two full jetcans will overflow this and thus the statement produced makes me highly doubt things.
Quote: The benefit of the corporate hangar is that it can be used as a secure location for storing ore because it is accessible by others. For example, when out on mining ops your haulers (if you still need them with the Orca present) can take from here instead of scooping jet cans.
With such a small cargohold any decent mining run would fill it in no time at all. I have been on cargo hauling industrial runs in which I have personally moved 30 jetcans worth of ore in a single day. Apparently the only use this ship has is attempting to fill multiple roles and only one of which it does even if very poorly. If this is supposed to be a sub capital ship then it needs more to become that in my eyes. This is not a capital industrial ship. Quote me all you want. Until this ship becomes more useful I'm avoiding it like the plague.
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Thorson Wiles
Minmatar M3 Co-Op
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Posted - 2008.11.17 18:54:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Plundaar (all quotes by same author) It has no turret slots, thus it is unable to mine with anything other than drones.
Thus cannot be used, by itself, to strip a belt. It can help the mining ships in the fleet to do so, however.
Quote: What is the purpose of a survey scanner?
Never bothered with them myself.
Quote: It appears that it can not fit a captial tractor beam either which is another mising industrial primary item.
But it can grab from 70k out and pull things in a 1k/s. Most high-sec belts can have one of these in the center of it, and service the entire belt. (Some exceptions)
Quote: Seeing as the ship cargohold is 40,000 for a corp two full jetcans will overflow this and thus the statement produced makes me highly doubt things.
The base cargo hold of the ship is 30k that increases with skill and fit and can get over 107k. The 40k is the Corporate Hangar Bay, which cannot be accessed by NPC corporations. (If I were able to get this ship Tuesday, my hold would be 90156 with 2 expanders and 3 T1 rigs + the 40k Corp Hangar)
Quote: I have been on cargo hauling industrial runs in which I have personally moved 30 jetcans worth of ore in a single day.
Yep, same here, and we still will, but now when we go to the belt, warp to the Orca, who will fill the Corp Hangar from his massive hold for us to get. The haulers jobs will become more efficient. (My alt will be in an Ity 5 with me in the Orca)
Quote: Apparently the only use this ship has is attempting to fill multiple roles and only one of which it does even if very poorly.
You have a right to your own opinion, of course, but that seems to have besed on faulty information. You admitted that you didn't read the thread (nor probably the two other Orca threads) to gather the correct information. This ship will be a great hauler, on larger mining ops I think it will be common to see two Orcas servicing it. Once to haul, one to centralize the mined ore.
Quote: Quote me all you want.
Cool, thanks.
Quote: Until this ship becomes more useful I'm avoiding it like the plague.
Plenty usefull, plenty big, fairly flexible. You don't want one? Fine, no problem. Me, I'm collecting the ore to build the components to build this ship, and both myself and my alt will be flying it. (Sharing a single one, as needed) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't a |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.11.18 02:45:00 -
[640]
OK! We've had our first OP, with the Orca... as I stated earlier... the cargohold may as well not even BE there, for anything over four hulks. we had more, and it was very inadequate, and thats overstating it. the bonus was great...... other than that?? it served no purpose, we still had to have haulers runing about all over the place... this will change, when more orca's come off the line, and we can use them to haul with... there again, the normal Hauler Alts cant fly the Orca's, because they were trained to HAUL, and fly freighters. Understand, i am not complaining about the skills needed, I am complaining about the fact that the cargo bay is WAAAAY to small.. Sitting in a SS it fulfills its role as a command ship. The Command Pilot is still sitting on his thumb, and Will be until the Hauler alts all learn the nesessary skills, Barge 5 and mining foreman 5 will be the difficult ones for them. most will take over a month to train it. I had not said anything when people were complaining about the skills for this, Now I do understand why they were upset. If this ship is supposed to coordinate mining ops, it needs a couple of things to be successful at it, in ops that contain more than three or four hulks. A LOT more cargo space, even if it is ORE specific, meaning nothing else can go into that cargo area. the other thing it needs? Is a means of designating asteroids... The command Pilot kliks on a roid, or several roids... or maybe even on a roid type, like Kernite, and flags them to a certain Hulk.. that would keep the hulk pilots from all mining across the same roid, everyone mining the same belt gets hectic very fast, a way to actually "command" would be a worthwhile addition... Having said all that... Once we got down to only three Hulks, a Single hauler could keep up, and the Orca came into its own, it was great! Yanking in the cans as the hauler accessed the corp hanger and filled up, a lot of the pain was gone. In small ops, this ship is the Ultimate mining accessory, and I truly enjoyed it. I will have to limit the number of pilots in the ops until we have haulers in Orcas, and see how that goes... Also as stated by myself, and others.. giving a freighter access to its corp hanger... all the problems would be gone, as long as the freighter Pilot kept the corp hanger empty. We tried grouping all the hulks around the Orca, and quickly found that we couldn't conveniently use mining drones, which is a serious downfall, and loss of yield. we also found, that the haulers warping into the orca were bouncing barges all over the place unintentionally as they came out of warp among them... so its back to jetcan mining and using the Orca to yank in the cans, that worked well, except there were often four or five cans waiting for the orca to empty so it could digest them... Hauler pilots getting irritated because other haulers would displace them coming out of warp etc etc... again, as I said, for any op with more than like 4 hulks, its a mess, and game mechanics dont leave much of am option for fixing that, maybe setting it up so a hauler warps to a designated spot near the Orca instead of randomly dropping out of warp into the barges and other haulers? Small Ops! WIN WIN WIN! Larger ops!! FAIL Not a total fail, just need some improvements to make it better. MHO of the Orca so far! |
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Micky Forcet
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Posted - 2008.11.18 19:15:00 -
[641]
We did a corp op on Sunday using the Orca.. No real benefit to a well organised mining fleet as the ship is neither one thing or the other. And do the bonuses really replace what the skilled hulk pilot flying the orca could have contributed??
Would be nice if a frieghter could access the corp hanger.. Would be nice if the orca could be fitted with some mining strip lasers. It would be nice if it could haul, but then you loose the bonuses..
It looks nice tho.. |
shoot me
House Harkonnen
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Posted - 2008.11.18 20:46:00 -
[642]
Orca was a big disappointment to me I was hopping miners where going to get some attention this time around, but it was not to be. I think its great that mission runners and ship builders see a use for this ship but CCP should never have given the impression that this was going to be a high sec Rorqual or mining aid.
The required skills should be changed to industrial ships lvl 5 instead of barge lvl 5 and remove the mining foreman thing completely. Change the back story so that a non mining NPC designed the ship.
I tend to think releasing the Orca was a rushed when CCP realised they had no new content for the expansion. They cut and paste a carrier, removed the jump drive, lowered the ships attributes and give it the same fittings layout as a Hulk.
When I look at the bonus's it makes me wonder if CCP even play there own game.
It will make a great mission salvager ship. Just a shame it can't use accelerator gates.
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TheNecromancer
Caldari The Royal Order
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:47:00 -
[643]
hi
I one that sure likes the ship, but mostly because its a new toy. BUT
its does not replace another hulk pilot that has to fly an orca,instead of a hulk, so total its a bad ship if you look at the income from a small mining corp like 2-3-4 people total, I also had hope for ore compression system in it, dont see the need for it, but again some new functions is always nice, and I dont see any bad thing if the ship has gotten it.
lets hope ccp change the Orca because its not a success atm
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Darth Vaders
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 11:58:00 -
[644]
Edited by: Darth Vaders on 20/11/2008 12:00:17 Here are the 3 possible tasks the Orca could have
1) The Salvaging/looting ship
I was thinking initially to use the Orca as a looting salvaging ship. But seems to me its highs are way too low for that. If it only it had more highs. So as it is it doesn't shine on that department.
2) The miner booster command like ship
Should be able to mount more gang mods at the same time Should have ore compression or maybe an extra specific ore/mineral only cargo bay
3) Mini freighter
It's cargo is too small to fullfill that role
So although initially i was nuts about the Orca i think that i will stick to my destroyer looter/salvager |
Nick Bison
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:53:00 -
[645]
Edited by: Nick Bison on 20/11/2008 14:55:01 Am early adopter of the Orca and find it quite useful despite some of the naysayers.
Yes, it does take my mining toon and put him in the Orca and not in his Hulk, but considering the bonus', this works very well. We simply have the miners (6-9 miners) in two groups on opposite sides of the belt. Orca in the middle and a bit above. Miners fill JetCans, Orca tractors and put in Corp hanger, the Haulers warp to and from the Orca and pull from the Corp Hanger. If haulers fall behind, ore is shuffled to the cargo bay temporaily and moved back to keep haulers busy. - efficient and fun. - I may be off a bit on the math but removing my Hulk pilot from the mix is made up for with 3 or 4 Hulk pilots considering the bonus'.
As for the folk who lament that the Orca is no good for a 2-4 man mining corp ... you are correct. Probably won't serve your purposes.
As for the folk lamenting that the Orca is not a "mini freighter". It's not, it an Industrial Command Ship.
I am grateful the Orca is here as it is our (the Industrialist) foot in the door. With the Orca as the first ship of its class, the door is now cracked open for CCP to use the basic hull as the footprint for that "mini-hauler" or maybe even a few modifications to make it one heck of an "exploration" platform.
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Xindi Kraid
Caldari Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.20 21:36:00 -
[646]
About the mining barge skill: Changing the name would not change the fact that you have to train to mine to fly an orca and Rorqual since Mining Barge requires Astrogeology 3 which in turn requires mining 4. if Mining Barge had it's name changed to Ore Ships, you would still have to train to mine to fly the Orca and Rorqual.
If you want to seperate the mining ships from the capital industrials then remove the astrogeology skills. The barges already require astrogeology so it wouldn't affect the training time for them, but it would remove the requirement to train mining skills to fly an Orca and Rorqual. |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.11.22 05:23:00 -
[647]
hm, a lot of people claiming this ship is not for small ops / corps, that it is only useful for larger ops...
IMHO it is more useful for small ops.. people are also figuring the bonus's on numbers from a well skilled hulk Pilot..
There is no way, my newly trained Orca Pilot is also a good Hulk Pilot.. cant even fly the hulk, nor does he have the skills trained to use t2 crystals, or the exhumers skill, so I fail to see how, despite being close to flying a hulk, yet still many weeks away from being a GOOD hulk pilot can be figured into the equation. I'm not going to try to do the math, but am willing to bet, that a bare bones hulk pilot won't meet the numbers I've seen quoted..
Astrogeology 4 and 5 would take 15 days give or take depending on learning skills, and I have no intention of training that, nor do I intend to run Exhumers to lvl 3, or worse the extra 28 days to get Exhumers to lvl 5... So anyone quoting numbers that claims they have lost a good hulk pilot, your flying it with the wrong character. Complaining about training barge 5 to fly it is only a complaint because most hauler pilots dont have the skill, neither did I, but I wanted an Orca, so I trained it, just like I wanted a carrier, so I trained BS to 5. The bottom line is, if you want an Orca, you don't need to be anywhere near a GOOD hulk pilot, in fact, you don't even need to be able to fly a covetor, and you can still fly the Orca... hmm, wait, Oh Look, I cant even fly a Retriever!!!!! but I CAN fly an Orca :P
SO! Having said that, One T2 hauler, one hulk, with the Hauler pilot giving the bonus for group, base bonus, has to haul about every thirteen to fourteen minutes, losing the bonus when docked, or jumping out of system, Hauler Pilot now trained to barge 5, simply trains mining director 1 because he already has leadership 5 etc.. Now, he is in an Orca, and bonus's will run solid, for about an Hour before the Hold is full, and it has to warp to dock or jump, that alone has saved trips. Two hulks fill it in a half hour, still better than it was, four hulks fill it in the fifteen minutes (or less) that it takes to fill a can, at which point, you would have needed two haulers if mining in a system with a station, and three if making one jump, four if making two jumps...
So using a second Orca to haul with at anything over 3 hulks becomes important, once you exceed 5 hulks, you no longer have cargo space for the ores even with another orca hauling, but still doable if in a system with a station... however, I almost never mine in a system with a station.. An Op with 9 hulks, the Orca becomes nothing more than a warp in point for the haulers to scoop cans. Once we have three to four orca's up and running, it may become easier, though I still have to wonder how badly they will be colliding when they warp into the op, since they have to be on top of the primary Orca to access the Corp hanger. Might have to set up the hauling Orca's to warp in at different ranges and jet the ores and tractor them out.. an option I haven't explored yet.
In my opinion, it is only good for smaller ops. This ship, with good fittings and rigs can only handle 4 hulks. "most" SMALL industrial corps can usually field six to ten hulks. At that point, it becomes like mining in a battleship with 8 beams running, hectic, and you have to stay on top of it or it gets away from you and you have a mess, then you more or less have to stop, and start over to get back into the rhythm.
Mining has always been about managing Cargo space, an Orca with more than 4 hulks is like having maxed mining skills, and using a covetor, if all three beams hit at once, your hold is overfilled and you lose time. The Orca already gives bonus's, having a hold large enough to carry a small moon wont change that, but it would certainly make managing large ops easier.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Echo Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.22 09:08:00 -
[648]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 22/11/2008 09:10:49 I think, as a mining support ship, you cant really ask for anything more (well, i really want to ask for ore compression!) other then that, i think they hit the nail on the head with this ship. it is perfect for what it was designed for.
It doesn't need a bigger cargo bay, it is not a freighter. The Tractor beam taking away from bonus mods are a tradeoff point.
Also, i fly a battlecruiser as my salvage ship. Does this mean i shouldnt have to train battlecruiser skills to fly it? Obviously, if you plan to use a mining ship, that requires mining skills, as a hauler, you're going to still have to train to use that ship. even if you dont plan on using it as it was designed.
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Bromboor
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:59:00 -
[649]
After seeing it, I will admit its great at what it was designed to do, unfortunately there wasn't really need for what it was designed to do. A command ship could do it without all the training.
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Signati
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Posted - 2008.11.22 18:19:00 -
[650]
After using one in an op, I say it works great.
Held 3 cans worth of or when needed to, and removed the need of mining in one spot. Spread the miners in the belt and each squaked when there can was full, the orca pulls it in and holds it for the haulers.
Although we lost 1 hulk pilot to fly it, not a huge issue as the bonus to yield we got out did that. (Mining Diretor 5 + 2 gank links and warefare spec lvl 4 = win)
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DrTritanium Merc
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:29:00 -
[651]
For the Orca it could have come with those Huge mining droens or something, I agree with the compressing the ore to save space In some way like Ice. some defence drones or Sentry drones i have heard of the ultimate mining drone 1200m3 load would have been a nice BONUS as well. But glad that it can carry other ships and a few mining barges but have not flown 1 either but would be nice. I would like to see the ships low med and hi sets for shields and stuff. Just incase of some nasty things. like NPC ships or even cloak the darn thing if it can be parked and since its slow it should be able to hold 50% of its speed. What anyone think about that? Ok some think maybe cloak and warp. I can agree on that. would be nice. Fly safe guys. I am far from that but still sounds cool. laters all 07.
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.26 02:44:00 -
[652]
I'll be getting one, if only as a mobile base of operations.
To me the Orca is:
- A super-hauler/mini-freighter (eqiv to 2.4 Iteron Vs)
- A mining command ship (better mining bonuses than a Command Ship)
- Rally point for haulers in bigger mining operations
- An Empire space mini-carrier for mission-running fleet support
The Orca can act as command ship and hauler for smaller mining operations - for a two man operation it can happily haul and provide command bonuses (while in the belt), with 1/3 the number of trips required compared to an Iteron V. At the same time, it boosts the amount of ore mined. What's not to like?
It doesn't matter that the boost doesn't apply while the ship is not in the belt. Deal with it - the boost is better than what you'd get from an Iteron V pilot. With two Hulks, your Iteron V pilot won't be able to keep up if hauling to the next system over. With an Orca, the hauler pilot can actually sit in belt for two cycles of the mining lasers - bringing the command bonus for a 50% duty cycle.
Using the Orca to haul and provide command bonuses means you can switch from 2 hulks + 1 iteron V + 1 command ship to 3 hulks + 1 Orca. For smaller fleets, you can switch from 1 Hulk + 1 hauler to 1 Hulk + 1 Orca. I gain 100% bonus in productivity from having a hauler for just 1 Hulk, which means that the Orca (with command links) will provide more benefit than a second Hulk in the fleet.
The only thing I'd like to see done to help the Orca pilots out is the addition of "Massive Secure Containers" of about 10k volume (carrying 13k). For my mission-running purposes, I am happy to cram the hold full of GSCs, filling them one by one in the hangar and shipping a load of them off to market when they're full. Unloading 4 MSCs would be a lot easier than unloading 14 GSCs though :)
My hauler alt is currently saving up and training for an Orca. There's no doubt in my mind that this ship is a must have for all the activities in which I participate.
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Klovakison
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Posted - 2008.11.28 07:47:00 -
[653]
Originally by: Rramar Claime Edited by: Rramar Claime on 23/10/2008 21:40:37
Originally by: Mioelnir
Originally by: Rramar Claime .
The primary reason for its inception was (to the best of my knowledge) the absense of a ship with a command bonus to mining links that could enter highsec.
What do you mean enter hisec?? It can't leave hisec lol! M8 if you try to leave empire in a ship with those attributes your name will be famous on intel channels... Edit: Command bonus for veldspar ops ftw! Yes, thats what we all miss from eve!
Well I own one and I have also ordered all my pos gunners to train for it .Why? you might ask well lets see you got a sieged pos and hangers going off line ships needeing reloads refits etc. Well hanger over here boys fleet me up . Clean out corp hangers loose a lot less if the pos dies. As for not leaveing high sec I had mine 4 hours, as soon as fitted filled and course set I headed to 0.0. Can it tank belt rats? Yeah it can and thats angel bs rats in -0.36 systems. I use it to rat to be honest. As for its uses other wise . Lets see cloaking ammo hauler support command ship, granted other gang links don't get a specific bonus but hell I can still fit arm and shield rep and cap transfers as a support warp out. Carry fuel and pos fits ammo for sieges. a few space tackler ships and gear for inevitable losses. Frankly calling this a high secc toy is like saying frigates are not for 0.0 .Its not the ship but how ya use it. Also show me a sub jump freighter with this cargo cap that can pass through 0.0 . frankly i'll take the smaller cargo for the ability to move with a security blanket of a cloak and not need a cyno to anouse my presence. Side note the first gate into 0.0 was bubbled and camped yet the ship made it to home 18 jumps from there . T2 cloak FTW , with a bit of patient piloting.
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Wynteryth Fett
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Posted - 2008.11.29 20:36:00 -
[654]
CCP Fallout - Its my understanding that when the Orca was originally announced, it was supposed to be about half the size of the Rorqual and still have compression capabilities.
Looking at the Rorqual's specs, that clearly isn't the case. In fact, the Orca's mass is less than 25% of that of the Rorqual. And you pulled the compression abilities out.
Also, I am confused at how you came up with just about all of your numbers for the Orca. You bounce all over the place. The structure is less than 25% of the Rorqual, as is the armor. The shields are about 1/8th that or the Rorqual. And the CAP recharge time of 800 seconds definitely isn't in line with that of the Rorqual's. The Rorqual has a cap of 54560, and recharges in 3900 seconds, but the Orca has a cap of only 4200, but takes 800 seconds?
While the idea of the Orca is great, there are too many inconsistencies. It would be like the United States building a new mini aircraft carrier and deciding to put in all WWII vintage equipment. It makes no sense. And that is what the specs of the Orca say. It makes no sense. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to them. And I know that isn't what CCP wanted. I don't see how you can honestly sit there and claim that you are trying to keep the game balanced when nothing you put together is actually balanced. Its way outta whack.
My suggestions: Add in 1 or 2 compression lines Upgrade the Powergrid to about 7500 Add in a 4th High slot. Add in a 3rd Low Slot.
Change either of the following: Change the Cap recharge rate from 5.25units/second to 14.5 units a second (slightly better than the Rorq 13.99 units/second.
OR
Raise the Cap to 10,200 and change the recharge rate to the same 13.99 seconds.
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Lorgoth
Children of Gjallarhorn
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Posted - 2008.11.29 21:25:00 -
[655]
prolly another bu11* ship to distract ppl from serious matters (POS warfare, lag, lower perform. with every patch...). gj ccp, as always.
Eve related signature below : IF... you want to be able to post on CAOD on your alt... - just join our lovely Corp (Children of Gjallarhorn) HQ at Mastakomon V - CB.
cheers
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.11.30 03:47:00 -
[656]
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett What Wynteryth Fett said.
So you basically want the Rorqual in highsec? It doesn't need compression! It doesn't need more powergrid or more slots! And the capacitor is fine as it is, if you want a Rorqual so much move to low sec and buy one, don't beg for changes to a ship that most other people deem fine as is.
Originally by: Lorgoth prolly another bu11* ship to distract ppl from serious matters (POS warfare, lag, lower perform. with every patch...). gj ccp, as always.
So witty, did you write that yourself?
Lag has been struck a massive blow so I don't know how you can complain about that, and the people that take part in POS warfare aren't usually the types that hang around in high sec belts using ships like the Orca so that argument is out the window.
Saying things like "gj ccp, as always." may seem like a good idea but they don't do anything other than prove you have nothing to add to an argument.
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Plundaar
Gallente Golden Orb Technology inc
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Posted - 2008.12.01 07:04:00 -
[657]
Originally by: Constance Harme So you basically want the Rorqual in highsec? It doesn't need compression! It doesn't need more powergrid or more slots! And the capacitor is fine as it is, if you want a Rorqual so much move to low sec and buy one, don't beg for changes to a ship that most other people deem fine as is.
Not everybody agrees that a ship is fine as is. Ore Compression is over-rated to me anyways. I still think this ship wasn't fully thought out before it was released. And as this is the post about this ship this is also the place to post your thoughts about it.
I still see no purpose of giving this ship better survey scanner range if it never really mines ore in the first place. So this bonus the ship has is pretty much useless.
Kalderion Mar has already stated that 4 hulks are a bit much for this thing. So for now this is a small mining fleet item. And to me a small mining fleet isn't really a mining fleet.
Originally by: Krylon Rhae
This really isn't an issue of one verses the other or a tit-for-tat sort of arguement. If you already had the command ship providing bonus then the incremental difference is not worth the 675-m (in my case) for the Orca unless you look at the intangible benefits of the Orca; i.e. storage capicity, ease of ore transfer, rigged ship storage/relocation, bulk freighter use, etc.
As I see here, it's still a very odd looking mothership to me from that view. It does make mission mining easier though I'm not entirely sure that was the point. I still see only a realy tiny mothership, and not an industrial. I already pilot a jetcan eating iteron 5. All I had to do is dock locally and when the mining op was over trade it to a refiner or freighter pilot to move over for refine. So how did this sub capital mothership become classified as an Industrial? Or am I missing something? This is supposed to be an Industrial ship right? So show me how this one ship can do it's job.
Maxed cargohold doesn't look like it's going to be close to replacing a good iteron 5 pilot moving things to a station for freighter. And you'd still need one if you intended to use it as a command ship and docking point.
It doesn't compress ore. Not that I care one way or the other on this.
It doesn't have much mining capablity.
It's not tons better than a command ship.
Where is the Industrial? I just don't see it.
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Wynteryth Fett
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Posted - 2008.12.01 23:12:00 -
[658]
Originally by: Constance Harme
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett What Wynteryth Fett said.
So you basically want the Rorqual in highsec? It doesn't need compression! It doesn't need more powergrid or more slots! And the capacitor is fine as it is, if you want a Rorqual so much move to low sec and buy one, don't beg for changes to a ship that most other people deem fine as is.
Constance, my post wasn't addressed to you. It was addressed to CCP Fallout. But, since you decided to respond with worthless garbage, why don't you go back and read what I said. The ORCA was supposed to be HALF of the Rorqual. It was supposed to be its little brother. ITS NOT. I know its hard for someone like you to understand that.
Yes, the Orca should have SOME compression and yes, it should have more powergrid and more slots. If you new anything about manufacturing or building, you'd know damn well that the points I brought up are valid. But, clearly you don't. Instead of replying to a situation that is not yours to reply to, how about you actually think about the suggestions posed and in the context they were posed. You will be able to make a much more coherrent replies in the future that way.
OH, and 23 pages of a thread say otherwise regarding whether or not people think this ship is fine. More people have been LET DOWN AGAIN by CCP with the ORCA.
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Blue Merlin
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Posted - 2008.12.02 08:42:00 -
[659]
Quote: Or am I missing something?
No Plundaar, you're missing everything. Not only do you misunderstand pretty much everything about the ship, you then have a brainfart about what the ship is supposed to do and then criticise it on those non-existent grounds.
Quote: it was designed to do. A command ship could do it without all the training.
And any noob can step straight into a command ship, can they? Of course not so why aren't you running a campaign to simplify the skilling for Command Ships?
Quote: Small Ops! WIN WIN WIN! Larger ops!! FAIL
Here's a clue - larger ops are just multiples of small ops.
From my own limited experience - with Industrial Command Ship 3 + T1 gear and rigs, I get >85,000 m3 in the main hold and there's still 40,000 m3 spare in the Corp Hangar. So did everybody get that last bit? With moderate skilling and equipment, the Orca gets a smidge over 125,000 m3 of rock storage and that's a **** load more than any Itty V. And it can hold GSCs too.
From my own limited experience - this ship fills the huge gap between the Itty 5 and a freighter (jump or otherwise) and is a smashing ship for shifting lumps of stuff and (smaller) ships around. If I'm looking to mine in a new system, everything I'm likely to need fits in easily.
From my own limited experience - I'm starting to see Orcas supporting single miners in belt (if you've got one for mining ops, you might as well use it whenever you can). And it's a boon for hauling icing ops.
The down side No. 1? It's like a cow on ice when turning to warp. But we've worked a small manual method that does it quicker.
The down side No. 2? My hauler alt has another week before she can fly one and another month and a half before she can wear a Mining Foreman Mindlink. And it will be worth every second of skilling.
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Zanpt
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.02 12:11:00 -
[660]
Edited by: Zanpt on 02/12/2008 12:12:29 There seems to be too much attention on the Orca's cargo space. I don't even use its cargo space. The strengths of the Orca in actual mining are:
- Command bonuses to the miners
- Corp hangar into which miners can deposit ore
- Corp hangar from which haulers can take ore
- Corp hangar can hold spare mining crystals
- No jetcans necessary
- Long-range tractor to facilitate cleaning up last of a belt
- Ship maint bay allows stashing Hulks to fly escort ships en route
It falls a bit short, though. All three link modules and a tractor cannot be fitted. It needs another high slot.
The ship maint bay is not large enough to do a good job of carrying miners/haulers to allow those pilots to fly escort ships en route to and from the mining system.
It needs more mid and low slots and faster cap recharge, possibly more powergrid.
I don't consider it a fail; at least it won't be a fail if CCP tunes it up. If CCP doesn't, it will be a fail as two Orcas are presently required to have a small traveling mining fleet that stores a few Hulks and haulers so that some of the fleet pilots can fly escort ships enroute to and from the mining system. And being such a slow ship, the second Orca has no use in the mining op itself, only in carrying ships to and from the mining system.
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.12.03 03:48:00 -
[661]
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett Constance, my post wasn't addressed to you. It was addressed to CCP Fallout. But, since you decided to respond with worthless garbage, why don't you go back and read what I said. The ORCA was supposed to be HALF of the Rorqual. It was supposed to be its little brother. ITS NOT. I know its hard for someone like you to understand that.
New ships are supposed to be what CCP need them to be to keep the game balanced, they may say at some point that the Orca "will be half of the Rorqual" but games change and so do intentions. They may have intended it to be half the Orca but they also intended to put a restriction on cargo placed within a ships hold while in a ship maintenance bay, CCP have now said they intend to revisit this mechanic to continue to effectivly balance capital ships.
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett Yes, the Orca should have SOME compression and yes, it should have more powergrid and more slots. If you new anything about manufacturing or building, you'd know damn well that the points I brought up are valid.
What your saying is that the Orca should have compression to some degree and more powergrid, how can you say with absolute certainty that your right? What makes your opinion any more right than anyone elses. You saying I know nothing about manufacturing is quite arrogant.
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett But, clearly you don't.
Oh yes, clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about. If your so right in your opinions then how come the powers that be have deemed compression too much for this ship?
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett Instead of replying to a situation that is not yours to reply to, how about you actually think about the suggestions posed and in the context they were posed. You will be able to make a much more coherrent replies in the future that way.
I'm sorry, I had this silly notion that forums were a place to discuss and exchange ideas. If you want to direct something to CCP Fallout without anyone else responding why dont you email him.
Originally by: Wynteryth Fett OH, and 23 pages of a thread say otherwise regarding whether or not people think this ship is fine. More people have been LET DOWN AGAIN by CCP with the ORCA.
So if half the community wanted a new ship that had 99.9% resistances 8 missile hardpoints and CCP decided not to put it into game, would CCP be letting the community down? Or would they be doing whats best for game balance and not a bunch of people that want something becuase its cool.
Dont berate someone for giving their opinion, thats how you lose friends.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.03 19:27:00 -
[662]
Seems most people are able to use the ship just fine as it is, and are quite well pleased. A few posts in a single thread hardly represent a majority of those folks. My alliance, for examples, now has several and use them for a wide variety of tasks. And yes, we also make heavy use of Freighters, Jump Freighters, and Roquals. No complaints so far, in fact we are discovering new uses for it all the time (including war time logistical needs).
Does that make us smarter than the average bear? ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.12.11 04:06:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Blue Merlin
Quote: Small Ops! WIN WIN WIN! Larger ops!! FAIL
Here's a clue - larger ops are just multiples of small ops.
From my own limited experience - with Industrial Command Ship 3 + T1 gear and rigs, I get >85,000 m3 in the main hold and there's still 40,000 m3 spare in the Corp Hangar. So did everybody get that last bit? With moderate skilling and equipment, the Orca gets a smidge over 125,000 m3 of rock storage and that's a **** load more than any Itty V. And it can hold GSCs too.
From my own limited experience - this ship fills the huge gap between the Itty 5 and a freighter (jump or otherwise) and is a smashing ship for shifting lumps of stuff and (smaller) ships around. If I'm looking to mine in a new system, everything I'm likely to need fits in easily.
From my own limited experience - I'm starting to see Orcas supporting single miners in belt (if you've got one for mining ops, you might as well use it whenever you can). And it's a boon for hauling icing ops.
The down side No. 1? It's like a cow on ice when turning to warp. But we've worked a small manual method that does it quicker.
The down side No. 2? My hauler alt has another week before she can fly one and another month and a half before she can wear a Mining Foreman Mindlink. And it will be worth every second of skilling.
From my own limited experience - oh wait, I actually have one... hehe, OK, so you cant fly it, just wait the extra days and you will see what I meant.
with the Orca cranking on the bonus's, I can mine well over 2000m3 per cycle, per beam. I forgot how much exactly, 2027.7m3 or something like that, anyhow, how long do you think it will take four hulks pulling in these numbers to fill it? Now figure how long it will take the hauler Orca (Cow on Ice) to warp, jump out, warp, dock, unload, undock, warp to gate, jump in, and warp back to the op.
You should be close to flying it. grab four or five GOOD hulk pilots and I think you will see what I meant.
I LOVE it for mining alone!
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angelbyrd
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:56:00 -
[664]
i happen to be one pleased with the orca, could use a bit here and there but overall a nice ship for high sec ops so far. 1. with a little time training it gives fantastic bonus 2. hauls alot of variouse items, more effective then the itty 5 or the occtar 3 makes a fantastic afk miner,u have to use your imagination of course for the afk mining thing:} 4. is a nice can for an ice op. 5. its affordable and finally, ccp did state that the stats are subject to change. all and all i hope they dont do there usaul thing and nerf it anymore than she is.
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Krif Hukwi
Amarr The Gear Heads Just Die Already Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:29:00 -
[665]
I find that the orca makes a very good salvaging ship for high sec missions.
as anyone can fit salvagers to their ship once the room/mission is cleared or before if its tanked by using the Fitting option so for example it tractors out to 70 k so the salvagers dont realy have to move at all
makes mission so much easier(also can help clear those pesky frigs and drnes as i carry small t2 combat drones ;) )
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Abulurd Boniface
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Posted - 2008.12.25 07:08:00 -
[666]
Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 25/12/2008 07:10:23 I had expected the vessel to be a bit bigger as there were noises about it being a small Rorqual. Even so, it's a great ship that can serve a large variety of purposes.
My problem with it is the cognitive dissonance that no ship can be scooped to the maintenance bay that has ore in its own hold, even if that is its primary cargo type [barge / exhumer class]. It makes no sense that I can see.
As a narrative device I cannot reconcile the idea that it would be ok for a ship to be completely filled with ammunition but not a single bit of ore can be taken along. Also, the guest ship cannot have an assembled GSC on board. Why?
If a practical reason could be offered why this would make it impossible for the guest ship to be stored into the maintenance bay of the Orca, I would take it as read. Here it seems like an arbitrary reason to prevent pilots from expanding the maintenance bay into an extension of the cargo hold. If a pilot would choose to use the vessel in that way, why would the designers have a problem with that? Why is there a need to try and limit the abilities of the ship when deploying it like that is just one of a vast array of permutations in which the ship can be used? It's a natural, sensible way of using it as people will, by their very nature, try to maximize the use of their assets.
I appreciate the need for balance in the game but this kind of restriction goes against what a reasonable use of the vessel would be. So, ok, a ship can be stored that happens to have ore as [part of] the cargo. Big deal.
The quality of the experience of the game will only truly come into bloom when the pilot is allowed to use the environment and the equipment in ways that are natural consequences of the way the universe is built. Introducing arbitrary and [here at least] nonsensical restrictions take away from the 'suspension of disbelief' that allows us to enjoy the full experience of what it means to be players in the vast tableau vivant that is New Eden. Interrupting the natural flow of the universe just so one aspect of the use of the environment would not impinge on questions of whether an Orca would become too much like a freighter is nickle and diming the pilot. It bespeaks a lack of imagination and it takes away from a great idea for no good reason.
This decision was made by product managers during a PDT meeting where the natural requirement for the frugal use of limited company resources was translated into finding a way to needlessly restrict the use of a feature because the people at the table do not -really- live in the universe they help create.
A pity.
Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO
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Kordel Trask
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Posted - 2008.12.25 23:47:00 -
[667]
Originally by: shoot me Orca was a big disappointment to me I was hopping miners where going to get some attention this time around, but it was not to be. I think its great that mission runners and ship builders see a use for this ship but CCP should never have given the impression that this was going to be a high sec Rorqual or mining aid.
The required skills should be changed to industrial ships lvl 5 instead of barge lvl 5 and remove the mining foreman thing completely. Change the back story so that a non mining NPC designed the ship.
I would have to agree with this overall. As far as skills I think it would have been more in line for: Industrial ships lvl 5 Take away Mining Formean lvl 5 and making it "Command ships" level IV.
Hence, Industrial Command ship?
While I'm at it, another high slot (4 total) for the 3 links and a tractor.
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Rathethek
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Posted - 2008.12.27 22:47:00 -
[668]
Well said. IMO CCP should take note.
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 25/12/2008 07:10:23 I had expected the vessel to be a bit bigger as there were noises about it being a small Rorqual. Even so, it's a great ship that can serve a large variety of purposes.
My problem with it is the cognitive dissonance that no ship can be scooped to the maintenance bay that has ore in its own hold, even if that is its primary cargo type [barge / exhumer class]. It makes no sense that I can see.
As a narrative device I cannot reconcile the idea that it would be ok for a ship to be completely filled with ammunition but not a single bit of ore can be taken along. Also, the guest ship cannot have an assembled GSC on board. Why?
If a practical reason could be offered why this would make it impossible for the guest ship to be stored into the maintenance bay of the Orca, I would take it as read. Here it seems like an arbitrary reason to prevent pilots from expanding the maintenance bay into an extension of the cargo hold. If a pilot would choose to use the vessel in that way, why would the designers have a problem with that? Why is there a need to try and limit the abilities of the ship when deploying it like that is just one of a vast array of permutations in which the ship can be used? It's a natural, sensible way of using it as people will, by their very nature, try to maximize the use of their assets.
I appreciate the need for balance in the game but this kind of restriction goes against what a reasonable use of the vessel would be. So, ok, a ship can be stored that happens to have ore as [part of] the cargo. Big deal.
The quality of the experience of the game will only truly come into bloom when the pilot is allowed to use the environment and the equipment in ways that are natural consequences of the way the universe is built. Introducing arbitrary and [here at least] nonsensical restrictions take away from the 'suspension of disbelief' that allows us to enjoy the full experience of what it means to be players in the vast tableau vivant that is New Eden. Interrupting the natural flow of the universe just so one aspect of the use of the environment would not impinge on questions of whether an Orca would become too much like a freighter is nickle and diming the pilot. It bespeaks a lack of imagination and it takes away from a great idea for no good reason.
This decision was made by product managers during a PDT meeting where the natural requirement for the frugal use of limited company resources was translated into finding a way to needlessly restrict the use of a feature because the people at the table do not -really- live in the universe they help create.
A pity.
Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO
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cybore
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Posted - 2008.12.29 18:50:00 -
[669]
my corp has been at war so i hav not used the orca much. I would like CCP to bring back the ol Mobile refinery maybe a modual or a cargo componet, I still have the skill for it. I would really like to see the orca interface with a freighter in space. the idea of taking 6 hulks an orca and a freighter out to a system with out any stations sounds cool
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Lord Abbadon
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.20 02:15:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 25/12/2008 07:10:23 I had expected the vessel to be a bit bigger as there were noises about it being a small Rorqual. Even so, it's a great ship that can serve a large variety of purposes.
My problem with it is the cognitive dissonance that no ship can be scooped to the maintenance bay that has ore in its own hold, even if that is its primary cargo type [barge / exhumer class]. It makes no sense that I can see.
As a narrative device I cannot reconcile the idea that it would be ok for a ship to be completely filled with ammunition but not a single bit of ore can be taken along. Also, the guest ship cannot have an assembled GSC on board. Why?
If a practical reason could be offered why this would make it impossible for the guest ship to be stored into the maintenance bay of the Orca, I would take it as read. Here it seems like an arbitrary reason to prevent pilots from expanding the maintenance bay into an extension of the cargo hold. If a pilot would choose to use the vessel in that way, why would the designers have a problem with that? Why is there a need to try and limit the abilities of the ship when deploying it like that is just one of a vast array of permutations in which the ship can be used? It's a natural, sensible way of using it as people will, by their very nature, try to maximize the use of their assets.
I appreciate the need for balance in the game but this kind of restriction goes against what a reasonable use of the vessel would be. So, ok, a ship can be stored that happens to have ore as [part of] the cargo. Big deal.
The quality of the experience of the game will only truly come into bloom when the pilot is allowed to use the environment and the equipment in ways that are natural consequences of the way the universe is built. Introducing arbitrary and [here at least] nonsensical restrictions take away from the 'suspension of disbelief' that allows us to enjoy the full experience of what it means to be players in the vast tableau vivant that is New Eden. Interrupting the natural flow of the universe just so one aspect of the use of the environment would not impinge on questions of whether an Orca would become too much like a freighter is nickle and diming the pilot. It bespeaks a lack of imagination and it takes away from a great idea for no good reason.
This decision was made by product managers during a PDT meeting where the natural requirement for the frugal use of limited company resources was translated into finding a way to needlessly restrict the use of a feature because the people at the table do not -really- live in the universe they help create.
A pity.
Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO
very good post. |
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Avaleric
Amarr SC Special Circumstances TC The Culture
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Posted - 2009.01.23 08:49:00 -
[671]
Tip: Best boat for salvaging/looting is the Paladin. With 4 salvagers, 3 tractors, 2500 capacity and 250 burn speed, I wipe up a mission area quite fast...
Originally by: Krif Hukwi I find that the orca makes a very good salvaging ship for high sec missions.
as anyone can fit salvagers to their ship once the room/mission is cleared or before if its tanked by using the Fitting option so for example it tractors out to 70 k so the salvagers dont realy have to move at all
makes mission so much easier(also can help clear those pesky frigs and drnes as i carry small t2 combat drones ;) )
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Trenjeska
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Posted - 2009.01.29 11:09:00 -
[672]
Problem with the paladin is that it requires Amarr BS 5. Anyone can train for an orca much faster then train for amarr BS V
Originally by: Avaleric Tip: Best boat for salvaging/looting is the Paladin. With 4 salvagers, 3 tractors, 2500 capacity and 250 burn speed, I wipe up a mission area quite fast...
Originally by: Krif Hukwi I find that the orca makes a very good salvaging ship for high sec missions.
as anyone can fit salvagers to their ship once the room/mission is cleared or before if its tanked by using the Fitting option so for example it tractors out to 70 k so the salvagers dont realy have to move at all
makes mission so much easier(also can help clear those pesky frigs and drnes as i carry small t2 combat drones ;) )
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Hawksfield
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Posted - 2009.02.08 04:27:00 -
[673]
Edited by: Hawksfield on 08/02/2009 04:27:23 nice ship
my only complant on this ship is that, WHY can this ship fit any ship in the ship hanger that will fit and the big brother rorqual can only handle industrail ships. it would be nice if the rorqual could fit covert or frigs or anything small, rather than ditching a ship in space.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.12 00:09:00 -
[674]
Originally by: Hawksfield Edited by: Hawksfield on 08/02/2009 04:27:23 nice ship
my only complant on this ship is that, WHY can this ship fit any ship in the ship hanger that will fit and the big brother rorqual can only handle industrail ships. it would be nice if the rorqual could fit covert or frigs or anything small, rather than ditching a ship in space.
Because Orca is a general use ship. You could think about her as small carrier. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Rethie
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.12 01:08:00 -
[675]
Copied from another post - Feat & Ideas
Just an idea, being the monolith that it is and a mobile base, my sugggestion is it should have sentry drones. That would compliment it for base of operations.
increase the bay and bandwidth to position a batch of 5 of them to guard and defend both yourself and the rest of gang in a belt.
Originally by: Azul Scribebeing an alt of a great orca pilot, i would love to see this on an orca.
but the orca, to me, is more like an oil tanker--ment to haul a whole lot of stuff, for market purposes, in high seck, or 'safe space'.. which never needs more than light drones to take care of stuff (since the orca passive tanks 90 DPS anyway).
it would be like putting heavy artillery on an oil tanker.. it just.. donest make sense.
so, in short.. no.
Ok I understand you point as using it as a tanker/ mini freighter, but if using it in it's gang setup, to bonus a mining gang and then using a hauler gang member (noob or low skilled alt) to haul to NPC local station then the sentry idea is a valid point for protecting the team you work with against roaming gangs (in theory). If a orca pilot is boosting a team of retriever noobs and hulks in a belt, we theorise the orca is reasonably safe, but the rest of the gang taking advantage of being in that boosted gang are still wide open for the roaming cat teams, the sentrys set to guard would increase their survivability. Since sentrys have a great optimal and no need to necessarily cross from one side of belt to the other like smalls/meds. Btw I am not using the orca as above, just looked at it and wondered whether it was viable idea.
and by procurment specialist
I don't see why the orca having a 125m/3 drone bay is a problem. it isn't drone bonused and tanks terrible. it is also roughly 12x the price of a domi if you were going to try this. (50 for domi vs 600m for orca your region may vary) Gives the option of having sentry drones out to shoot stuff as soon as you lock it (bad locking time too) instead of flying drones out to kill it.
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haerdtospeel
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:10:00 -
[676]
Currently, the ship hangar can fit 2 hulks. It would be really great if it were a tiny bit bigger and could fit a hulk and an itty V.
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Herve Rouen
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:20:00 -
[677]
Originally by: haerdtospeel Currently, the ship hangar can fit 2 hulks. It would be really great if it were a tiny bit bigger and could fit a hulk and an itty V.
castrate that fool !!!
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:33:00 -
[678]
Needs 4th Highslot TBH...
Apoctasy > unfortunately, Concord does not reimburse citizens for their own stupidity
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Kusum Fawn
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Posted - 2009.02.20 05:41:00 -
[679]
Edited by: Kusum Fawn on 20/02/2009 05:45:36 HI sec miner 1 alt w/ main in hulk, alt flys orca follows you in belt you procede to clear belt (as much as you can fit to orca) as alt moves from corp (where you the miner puts it) to cargo bays, when full he warps out, you jet can till he gets back, so much easier for the one alt people, no more hauler sitting by your side while you juggle cans, + you have drake (or other bc) in maintenance bay and swap when you feel like doing a mission or have some other ship in there to get you to your BS, (but you really should mine close to it anyways) its stupidly easier,
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carbonated softdrink
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Posted - 2009.02.25 12:09:00 -
[680]
So i recently purchased an orca ship, and i whent out there to try it with my alt as miner. But i havent found any difference in the fleet boost at all. Got the mining foreman laser and optimization links fitted in the orca, got myself in as the fleet booster, i see the green ticker in both fleet windows, i got the skills: leathership to lvl5,wing command to lvl2, mining foreman to lvl5, mining director to lvl4 and warfare link specialist to lvl3. But still i see no boost on my alts mining... Anyone got any clues?
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Fuxa
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Posted - 2009.02.25 12:22:00 -
[681]
Originally by: carbonated softdrink So i recently purchased an orca ship, and i whent out there to try it with my alt as miner. But i havent found any difference in the fleet boost at all. Got the mining foreman laser and optimization links fitted in the orca, got myself in as the fleet booster, i see the green ticker in both fleet windows, i got the skills: leathership to lvl5,wing command to lvl2, mining foreman to lvl5, mining director to lvl4 and warfare link specialist to lvl3. But still i see no boost on my alts mining... Anyone got any clues?
Set your alt to squad commander.
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carbonated softdrink
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Posted - 2009.02.25 12:29:00 -
[682]
Originally by: Fuxa
Originally by: carbonated softdrink So i recently purchased an orca ship, and i whent out there to try it with my alt as miner. But i havent found any difference in the fleet boost at all. Got the mining foreman laser and optimization links fitted in the orca, got myself in as the fleet booster, i see the green ticker in both fleet windows, i got the skills: leathership to lvl5,wing command to lvl2, mining foreman to lvl5, mining director to lvl4 and warfare link specialist to lvl3. But still i see no boost on my alts mining... Anyone got any clues?
Set your alt to squad commander.
And myself to a squad member?
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:30:00 -
[683]
Originally by: carbonated softdrink But i havent found any difference in the fleet boost at all. ... got myself in as the fleet booster
If you only have two characters, one should be squad leader, the other squad member. The orca pilot needs to be the squad booster.
Once you have three characters you can put one up as the fleet commander, which may benefit you if that character has better bonuses in some skills.
Apologies if you already are only using the squad, but by default the fleet interface will chuck the person who started the fleet into the role of "Fleet Commander".
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Emma Royd
Caldari Maddled Gommerils
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Posted - 2009.03.08 14:53:00 -
[684]
The only difference bonus wise between the Orca and a Battlecruiser is 1 cycle per hour and extra 1km range, so it's not such an excellent bonus giver for an small mining op, but I guess when there are plenty of miners it may be ok. Nor is it a brilliant hauler for a mining op due to the lack of high slots, so that brings it's use to a half reasonable hauler for shifting general stuff around.
IMO it's a 460m mini freighter
It's not often I'm wrong, apart from the comments I make in the signature, and then I'm often wrong. On the other hand maybe I'm getting confused. ......My head hurts :( |
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