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OMG.... I'm form MINMATAR! :( What to do when BS/Dread?

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Jain Za Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:32:00 - [31] Cambarus, Stop giving out bad advice. Thanks.
Private Bank	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:39:00 - [32] wauw this is amazing. after reading some more post about the phoon i got the "I'm mini get out of my way naps" feeling back xD. The phoon just need some more skills but when you got them then it should be one of the best. a real beast. I got an hurricane, take out lvl 3 easy and can with another cane make lvl 4 missions (we lost a cane becuase one of the missions was... well pretty ...... up. but else it goes good :)) So I think i will go for the phoon. after 100 days it should be playable and then some 100 or 200 days more it would be WTFPWNAGELAMO? ^^ hopefully the upcoming patch will bring something good for it too.
Lasran Tekeal	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:47:00 - [33] Originally by: Private Bank wauw this is amazing. after reading some more post about the phoon i got the "I'm mini get out of my way naps" feeling back xD. The phoon just need some more skills but when you got them then it should be one of the best. a real beast. I got an hurricane, take out lvl 3 easy and can with another cane make lvl 4 missions (we lost a cane becuase one of the missions was... well pretty ...... up. but else it goes good :)) So I think i will go for the phoon. after 100 days it should be playable and then some 100 or 200 days more it would be WTFPWNAGELAMO? ^^ hopefully the upcoming patch will bring something good for it too. You're willing to train for over 100 days just to get the phoon up to a decent level? -_- why not just concentrate on the smaller ships and own in them, we have some of the best smaller ships, if you want a mission ship get the maelstrom. If you REALLY want to specialise in battleships crosstrain amarr. ¼_¼
Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:52:00 - [34] Originally by: Lasran Tekeal Originally by: Private Bank wauw this is amazing. after reading some more post about the phoon i got the "I'm mini get out of my way naps" feeling back xD. The phoon just need some more skills but when you got them then it should be one of the best. a real beast. I got an hurricane, take out lvl 3 easy and can with another cane make lvl 4 missions (we lost a cane becuase one of the missions was... well pretty ...... up. but else it goes good :)) So I think i will go for the phoon. after 100 days it should be playable and then some 100 or 200 days more it would be WTFPWNAGELAMO? ^^ hopefully the upcoming patch will bring something good for it too. You're willing to train for over 100 days just to get the phoon up to a decent level? -_- why not just concentrate on the smaller ships and own in them, we have some of the best smaller ships, if you want a mission ship get the maelstrom. If you REALLY want to specialise in battleships crosstrain amarr. ¼_¼ how should i earn any money in small ships :(. can a hurricane solo lvl 4 with t2 medium guns/t2 gear? cus i need some money before doing the 0.0 sec life
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Thats Mining Edited by: Thats Mining on 15/02/2009 23:29:51 Edited by: Thats Mining on 15/02/2009 23:29:34 Originally by: bettybettybettybetty The typhoon is awful, if you REALLY want good ships that are battleship size and up go anything but minmatar. why is the typhoon awfull? many says it owns? 1 Split weapons group. the developers should be forced to only drink Crapy american non alcoholic beer for the rest of their lived for that alone. 2) if you want decent DPS you end up with a crap tank 3) if you want a good tank your DPS goes away
Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:05:00 - [36] but i really want to gate camp in low sec :( and with really i mean REALLY REALLY REALLY. not only with corp but also solo low sec gate camp (not 0.0 sec).
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:13:00 - [37] Originally by: Jain Za Cambarus, Stop giving out bad advice. Thanks. Jain Za, Stop being an elitist ****. Thanks. Seriously. Get your support skills to IV (the relevant ones I mean, yes, shield management V is a nice bonus to your shields, but if you're in an armor tanked ship there's no point now is there?) and get into a BS if that's what your goal is. You're not going to do as well as someone with 15million skill points, but that in no way means that you'll be useless. What IS useless is someone who doesn't know how to fit a ship and use it effectively, like, say, someone who waited until they'd been playing a year and only just got into their first BS Incidentally, such people trying to make arguments on the matter is hilarious. "Hi, I've been playing for a year now, and have never flown a battleship. Therefore I've no idea whether or not I'd be any good in one, or if I would have been good 10 million skillpoints ago, but I'm convinced that I would have done poorly, based on nothing except what a few of my friends with the same mentality told me." PVP with what you can afford to lose. That's all there is to it. Many people here have long since forgotten what it's like to have only a handful of skillpoints, or never even knew what pvping in bigger ships was like until they had been playing a year, and their advice will reflect that. On the subject of the phoon: It's not a bad ship, but TBH if you really want to get into battleship pvp there are better options in just about every other race. Minmatar have some awesome small pvp ships: the wolf, hyena, both their recons, the vaga, the sleipnir etc. But their larger ships are somewhat lacking when compared to other races. If you switch I'd say go gallente or amarr. Amarr are fotm now, and probably will be for a while, but gallente have always been good in pvp with their BSs (and the domi takes a ridiculously small amount of SP to fly well)
xxxak Caldari O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:14:00 - [38] No one has really answered this question very well. Minmatar have GREAT HACs and Recons in the Vagabond and Rapier. They have good interceptors and assault frigates. Their battleships are the worst in the game, for both PvP and PvE. If you do a lot of level 4 missions or plan on it, go for another race. If you do a lot of PvP that requires a battleship, go Amarr or Gallente. If you like anything but battleship stuff, go Minmatar they are fine.
Thats Mining	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:45:00 - [39] Edited by: Thats Mining on 16/02/2009 18:45:58 Originally by: xxxak No one has really answered this question very well. Minmatar have GREAT HACs and Recons in the Vagabond and Rapier. They have good interceptors and assault frigates. Their battleships are the worst in the game, for both PvP and PvE. If you do a lot of level 4 missions or plan on it, go for another race. If you do a lot of PvP that requires a battleship, go Amarr or Gallente. If you like anything but battleship stuff, go Minmatar they are fine. wowowo that is just what i needed but what if i want to do both? :(
Private Bank	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:26:00 - [40] well i just think i will **** on mini then all in all 600k sp is not that much to lose if i can be a much better race in 10 days. sad but true it looks like :( gallente owns in their imba frigates/cruisers/BS. nada to do for minmatar :(
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.16 21:38:00 - [41] Back before tier 2 ships, my first BS was the Typhoon. I was able to handle most of the Lvl 4 missions tho sometimes I had to warp out until I learned how to handle the missions. This was before missions were watered down and before the various mission guides were available. Today I use the Phoon as a fleet ship. I treat it as a heavy hac (much easier on the wallet considering it can be insured better than hacs can) and tend to put it between snipers and enemy fleets. With T2 1200's and Tremor, it still hits out to 150k. I can still make it 1 DD proof. Are there better BS's ? Sure, but once you get up in gunnery and missile skills the Phoon is a capable ship. Enjoy what you can fly. Lrrp
Private Bank	Posted - 2009.02.16 21:47:00 - [42] Edited by: Private Bank on 16/02/2009 21:47:53 Edited by: Private Bank on 16/02/2009 21:47:37 BAHAAA i think i will stay at mini anyway <.< changing race on an other race char is retar-ded ._. i will look out the phoon but maybe endup with the maelstrom we will see...
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.16 22:41:00 - [43] train minmatar because by the time you start to get good enough skills where you would notice the difference, minmatar bses will have gotten boosted and will be wtfpwn.
Lasran Tekeal	Posted - 2009.02.16 22:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Private Bank Edited by: Private Bank on 16/02/2009 21:47:53 Edited by: Private Bank on 16/02/2009 21:47:37 BAHAAA i think i will stay at mini anyway <.< changing race on an other race char is retar-ded ._. i will look out the phoon but maybe endup with the maelstrom we will see... Why not just avoid the BS's .... our BC's cruisers and frigates are awesome. If you really don't wanna crosstrain but wanna fly battleships try the autocannon maelstrom or even the sniper tempest.
Aurora IV	Posted - 2009.02.16 23:01:00 - [45] I totally agree that the minmatar Battleships and Capitals are pretty meh. If your dead set on flying battleships then Amarr are the best in the current game. Amarr also have a solid lineup as far as capital ships go. Their T2 cruisers and the Navy Omen are good as well. So in the current game if you really wanted to be a 1 race player, Amarr are a great choice. However, thats boring IMO. Minmatar have very solid ships at every class of hull from frigate to command ships. As far at T1 ships go, the rifter, rupture, stabber, and hurricane are all very effective ships. They are all fully capable of being fit for pvp or pve (except maybe the stabber). For T2 ships, the Vagabond is extremely effective, so is the Jaguar and Sleipnir. I personally fly Minmatar for sub-battleships, and Amarr for battleships and capitals. I don't see the point in having every race being good at everything. Outside of the role-players, there really isn't any reason not to fly more than 1 race. Is it a problem that Amarr are pretty good at everything? Maybe, but the Amarr are not good because their ships are better, laser are just awsome weapons currently. If Minmatar used lasers and Amarr used projectiles I think people would be calling for a Minmatar nerf. On a finishing point, split weapon systems are annoying because you have to train 2x the ammount of SP to use both systems effectively. TL:DR, Minmatar rock at small stuff, not so much at big stuff. Thats good, everyone should be good at thier own thing. Then I QQ over laser being awsome, and split weapons being annoying.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.02.16 23:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Dake Darkstalker At 3m SP you got about 12m more SP before you even have to worry about what BS you are going to fly in PVP that's if you want to be able to fly it well. That's about a year of training give or take. In that time there will be 2 more expansions along with the balancing that goes with them so no one can really say what BS will be the most effective in a year. Hence just stick with Minny they have effective ships to fly while you are working up your skills. In the end if you get to the point you are going to be training t2 large weapons and Minny BS suck then its not really a big hurdle to cross train to another race. If you can fly a minny BS well you can fly most other BS well. Right now Minny BS are the worse in EFT stats but there are still plenty of people that are kickin ass in them despite that. You just cant fly them in the Approach f1-f8 manner. Stick with a single race as long as you can stand. YOu will be better off in a lesser ship that you are very well skilled for than a being able to fly 2 different races ships with skills split all over. You do NOT need 15million SP to fly a BS well. Hell fully tech II fitting it will only run you about 3-4million SP (maybe a bit more for the phoon's split weapons but meh) and even that's not needed to be effective with the ship. Be sure to get the mentality of "If I can't fly it with all skills at lvl 5 I shouldn't fly it at all" Yes someone with perfect skills to fly a ship will do better in it then you do, but in pvp actual pilot experience means so much more then skillpoints it's in your best interest to fly ships as soon as you can afford to lose them and at least half-decently fit them out. for the phoon you need way wayyy more. I have only combat skills basically, can fly ONLY minmatar ships. Have 36 M skillpoints and I am still a few months of being able to use phoon well (t2 AC,T2heavy drones (only thing missing), T2 torps, max fittig, BS V and near perfect armor tankign skills). ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.18 15:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Cambarus for the phoon you need way wayyy more. I have only combat skills basically, can fly ONLY minmatar ships. Have 36 M skillpoints and I am still a few months of being able to use phoon well (t2 AC,T2heavy drones (only thing missing), T2 torps, max fittig, BS V and near perfect armor tankign skills). Really? At roughly the same SP level I have large tech II hybrids, tech II drones, nearly perfect armor tanking skills, BS V etc etc etc. I can also fly a dreadnought (though admittedly not very well) a rorqual/hulk, caldari and amarrian battleships (with all support skills at IV) as well as being able to man pos guns, and a few other minor things (I can also fly a phoon, just very poorly :P oh and amarr/gallente hac/recons, and gal/cal AFs/EAFs etc ) I'm quite comfortable flying around in a kronos (at least in pve, in pvp I prefer pilgrims and arazus) with the skills I have, and if you really believe the difference between what you need to fly a t1 ship and a t2 ship is just the prerequisites then you've got some pretty damn high expectations
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.18 16:01:00 - [48] Originally by: Rheed I just gotta say that this ship can be set up in so many different ways for so many different situations... I always get nervous when I meet one on the field of battle as it is really difficult to anticipate how it is set up. This is exactly what makes a Phoon in a fleet tough. In the post-nano age where you are always guessing what kind of makeup a fleet will have, it makes it even worse when you are going up against a Phoon, lord forbid more than one. You never know wth you're going to run into, and that unknown may throw the encounter in favor of your intended target or in your own favor. I like to view Minnie ships in a fight as a hand of poker. Sometimes it is a big bluff, and other times you are packing some serious heat when you lay down your cards. _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
Mortis Tyrathlion Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.18 16:08:00 - [49] Originally by: Cambarus Really? At roughly the same SP level I have large tech II hybrids, tech II drones, nearly perfect armor tanking skills, BS V etc etc etc. I can also fly a dreadnought (though admittedly not very well) a rorqual/hulk, caldari and amarrian battleships (with all support skills at IV) as well as being able to man pos guns, and a few other minor things (I can also fly a phoon, just very poorly :P oh and amarr/gallente hac/recons, and gal/cal AFs/EAFs etc ) I'm quite comfortable flying around in a kronos (at least in pve, in pvp I prefer pilgrims and arazus) with the skills I have, and if you really believe the difference between what you need to fly a t1 ship and a t2 ship is just the prerequisites then you've got some pretty damn high expectations Ditto. I can fly just about everything in sub-capital apart from T2 BS and Command Ships (fifteen days off those) from Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar, and have T2 projectiles and T2 hybrids (as in all of them) with a little over 30 mil SP... Regarding the OP, Minmatar are a fun race. They were the third race that I trained, so I already had a lot of support skills to help with them, and I do still prefer Gallente for a lot of stuff, I don't know what I'd do without my Rapier, Muninn and Tempest sniper. I think my example goes to show quite how much you can branch out given time, but it's important to pick one race and stick to it for a while, as you build up your basic skillbase. When I crosstrained into Gallente, I had pretty much all the basics done (Engineering V, Electronics V, cap skills at IV etc), and if you're having to train up multiple weapon systems, different tanks and a whole set of ship skills on top of all that, it gets overwhelming and you don't get anywhere. So I'd say go for Minmatar, get a feel for them while you skill up, then, when you've become acclimatised to it you can consider switching. Also, concerning the 'phoon: it's the only Minnie BS that gets flown in my corp's battleship gangs - Originally by: Arcon Telf OP, you should be honored, because this is the first time in my short Eve career I've felt the need to say this: Azeroth is that way ------>
Solid Prefekt Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.18 16:11:00 - [50] What other Matar ship needs T2 Sentries or T2 Torp skills? Together these two take a while to train and is not used for any other non cap matar ships. And then with the split dmg system it sucks to waste a low slot on a damage mod that only works for a third of your weapons. Then you factor in the lack of grid and you have a very hard to fly ship. The phoon used to have more value as a nano-phoon bumping BS's off stations, but that has been gimped to hell. And it can act a little like the Domi (with the dual neuts), but the domi still does it better as it has the drone bonuses. I know they tried to make the Maelstrom the mission ship (with the shield boosting bonus), but I think they should change the bonuses of the phoon around and make that the Matar mission ship. Then give the Maelstrom an optimal range and/or tracking bonus. And Artillery do need some CCP love to factor in the tank buffing of ships.
VoiceInTheDesert Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.18 17:04:00 - [51] Originally by: Dake Darkstalker At 3m SP you got about 12m more SP before you even have to worry about what BS you are going to fly in PVP that's if you want to be able to fly it well. That's about a year of training give or take. In that time there will be 2 more expansions along with the balancing that goes with them so no one can really say what BS will be the most effective in a year. Hence just stick with Minny they have effective ships to fly while you are working up your skills. In the end if you get to the point you are going to be training t2 large weapons and Minny BS suck then its not really a big hurdle to cross train to another race. If you can fly a minny BS well you can fly most other BS well. Right now Minny BS are the worse in EFT stats but there are still plenty of people that are kickin ass in them despite that. You just cant fly them in the Approach f1-f8 manner. Stick with a single race as long as you can stand. YOu will be better off in a lesser ship that you are very well skilled for than a being able to fly 2 different races ships with skills split all over. This pretty much. Minny BS are fine. Phoon is just as good as the Domi (which is regarded as one of the better BS), Pest will outrange blaster ships and is a killer with nuets and the Mael is a beast of a tank while not sacrificing a lot in dps. As for dreads, Moros is the best IMO, so if you're already training a gallente toon for capitals, just let him use the dread too. But as the guy I have quoted has said...you got a while before you got to worry about it. You can fly support BS (RR/nuet phoons) pretty quickly, but I wouldn't bother with a BS sized gunship until you got some more SPs under your belt (at least 3-4mil in gunnery, preferably with the t2 turrets for the race you choose and support skills to 4).
SuperNova221	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:29:00 - [52] I've had a Phoon for quite some time now. During the ownership of my Phoon I've tried the Apoc, Geddon, Mega Domi Hype and Maelstorm for missions. But each time I've sold it and came back to the Phoon. It's a marmite kinda thing. You love it or hate it. Personally I love it. For missions it has the versatility of missiles and drones, and the added DPS or AC's when targets get into about 20km (T1 ammo) Tank is fine with a single rep and 2x BCU or 1x BCU 1x gyro depending on skills is enough for DPS imo. Stick with Minmatar for a while, if you decide you don't like them at all sell your ship and train for something else. Or keep it train for something else and go take your Mini BS out to low-sec/0.0 for some fun.
Rip Minner	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:41:00 - [53] Most min bs need alot of skills trained do to spilt weapon systems. So people see this as a weakness but they are the fastest ships in the game. This basicly means you control the tactical lay out of the fight. If you wish to close and stay close you should be able to and the other way around. You will hear talk about how other bs do so much more damg but there also slower. Meaning that if you pick the right range you will greatly lower and in some casses remove there dps.
Ashnaag	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:54:00 - [54] As a mission runner the Typhoon works fine, and can generally take on anything you care to throw at it IF you are adaptable. This does mean you could probably train into carriers faster than what you would train to cover all the options in a Typhoon, even if you just paired it down to a specific playstyle of Typhoon. The upshot of this is, that if you want to, there is no fit in the smaller ships you will not be able to run that won't be, by default, pretty darn well pimped with the sheer volume of skills you'll have racked up along the way. The downside is that you can more or less plot a years worth of skills this way. Which, if you aren't part of the short attention span theater crowd, isn't such a bad thing.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:11:00 - [55] Edited by: Vrabac on 19/02/2009 01:12:56 Phoon is awesome ship and can be fitted in a huge variety of ways to perform huge variety of tasks, but for some it really needs large amounts of skillpoints, for t2 large guns, torps and heavy drones if you go for dmg dealing for example. Rest are rather crappy. Mael is a "what if I lived in a world where I wont ever be shot at by more than 1000 dps" fantasy while pest is simply lol in just about any role imaginable except as buffer shield tanked gank ship with no tackle, which would again work in "what if I lived in a world where remote shield rep gangs exist" situation. P.S. Just wanted to add they are nonetheless all very cool in their way, training for it myself actually.
lepew	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:15:00 - [56] Originally by: bettybettybettybetty The typhoon is awful, if you REALLY want good ships that are battleship size and up go anything but minmatar. i must point out that you are a moron. the typhoon is by far the best bs for pvp. plate tank the hell out of it, sensor boosters, web scram, heavy nuets and drones, and torps. and you have an evil ass anti-bc/nano bs. one of the best in the game.
Guriko	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:19:00 - [57] Originally by: bettybettybettybetty The typhoon is awful, if you REALLY want good ships that are battleship size and up go anything but minmatar. i must point out that you are a moron. the typhoon is by far the best bs for pvp. plate tank the hell out of it, sensor boosters, web scram, heavy nuets and drones, and torps. and you have an evil ass anti-bc/nano bs. one of the best in the game.
lepew	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:27:00 - [58] Edited by: lepew on 19/02/2009 01:27:45
Guriko	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:28:00 - [59] Originally by: Cpt Constantinus Well, the Naglfar might be the weakest dread atm but it still does its job. Seriously, when you are in a fleet with 50 other dreads who cares about your slightly lower dps/effective hitpoints? It wont matter much. Regarding the Minmatar battleships, i have heard some good things about the Phoon and the Maelstrome and i think that the Tempest is still an acceptable fleetsniper. So yea, Minmatar battleships might be somewhat mediocre but they can still do their job. the maelstrom is the holy grail of mini sniper bs. however the tempest is the most used because it is the most cost effective outo f the two. two more guns vs. 50-60mil cheaper , i would choose the least ammount of money. now mini used to be the best for pvp however now that they have doen the nano nerf mini and gallente are the same. however you must really train intensively before you are worth a damn. if i were you i would focus on yoru tanking frst and start runnign missions. until you have about 19mil sp. this way you can save up a **** load of isk and have the cash flow to succesfully supply your pvp habbit. now when it comes to dreads i wouldnt waste your time on it until you are at about 35mil sp. the only relly good use for dreads are large 0.0 fleet ops. now carriers on the other hand.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:43:00 - [60] I really don't know why people keep claiming that the Typhoon is "Unpredictable". It's just about the easiest ship in Eve to anticipate. Regardless of what combination of weapons it uses it WILL BE very close range. It's Torpedos will top out at about 20km but that hardly matters because since the missile changes if you don't have your target webbed torps will hit for ** anyway. AC's will also operate on "The closer the better" though again it hardly matters because inside 24KM both Pulses and Blasters will outdamage AC's. It lacks the Grid to fit a Heavy Injector and a Dual LAR tank so it WILL BE armor buffered (assuming it intends to tackle) and it's low base armor HP pretty much insures it will have less of a buffer than any comparably fit BS. The only thing you can't really guess before hand is what damage type it will do and how many (if any) nos/neuts it has fitted, though a quick look at the ship to see if it's got 4 guns fitted will go a long way to answering that question for you. All a typhoon can do is fly into your face and hope it can out-brawl you. Speed and agility become irrelevant (not that you've got much anyway after a pair of 1600 plates and 3 trimarks) because it's simply using it's speed to close range on a target that probably wants to get close anyway. Blaster or drone boats surely aren't going to complain that you've just flown yourself into their optimal range. The sole reason the ship doesn't fail utterly is that the frankly stupid amount of SP it requires to use the bloody thing ensures that it is possible to get decent DPS with no damage mods fitted, which is handy because with it's damage split pretty evenly across THREE weapon systems damage mods don't **ing work anyway. I mean I assume people have worked out that compared to other BS it only actually has ONE bonus? And people still call it a good ship.

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