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Mistress Frome
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Chssmius To really shine a HAM drake needs a painter(or 2), a web, and a point or someone else to do two or more of those. This is because HAM's don't benefit from Guided Missile Precision, and using Rage only amplifies this problem. The exception is if you are punching above your weight(shooting at BS).
Rage hams hit battlecruisers just fine. All you need is a point and a web.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.21 23:27:00 -
[32]
And T1/CN HAMs hit webbed cruisers just fine. Fitting a painter on a HAM Drake is stupid.
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echohead
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Posted - 2009.02.22 01:18:00 -
[33]
Zara Skyray posted a very good fit that proves the drake can be used for PVP if you don't over tank it.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.22 04:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: echohead Zara Skyray posted a very good fit that proves the drake can be used for PVP if you don't over tank it.
Ah, why thank you.
In response to the poster who suggested fitting a Target Painter - Yes, a target painter on the HAM drake is quite useful, and in a fleet I'd swap the SEBO for it. However, for most encounters - particularly solo - you should be fine without one. Faction HAMs (i.e. your default ammo) will hit for full or nearly full damage on almost any BC or webbed cruiser. Rages will hit for full on BSs and any webbed/Target Painted/Shield Tanked/MWD'd BC - which is the only time you need them anyways.
Nano T2 cruisers and frigates (particularly T2) will give you some trouble, but 1) They give nearly every BC (except the Myrm) trouble, 2) Your flight of drones will help compensate for against those small - and usually lightly-tanked - nuisances.
In all, the Drake makes a good PvP ship for many situations with the right fit and skills. It is not perfect for every encounter (what PvP ship is?), but it's greatly underestimated. The fit I posted can tear through most BCs and more than a few BSs faster than their pilots can figure out you aren't a passive-regen, HML-shooting slowboat.
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Chssmius
Capital Support House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.02.22 05:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Originally by: echohead Zara Skyray posted a very good fit that proves the drake can be used for PVP if you don't over tank it.
Ah, why thank you. ... In all, the Drake makes a good PvP ship for many situations with the right fit and skills. It is not perfect for every encounter (what PvP ship is?), but it's greatly underestimated. The fit I posted can tear through most BCs and more than a few BSs faster than their pilots can figure out you aren't a passive-regen, HML-shooting slowboat.
I would be curious to see your setup. Link please.
I am feeling too lazy to search the forums properly.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.22 12:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Chssmius
I would be curious to see your setup. Link please.
I am feeling too lazy to search the forums properly.
Just look on page one of this thread - I posted it there.
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Chssmius
Capital Support House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.02.23 06:20:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Chssmius on 23/02/2009 06:22:16
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Originally by: Chssmius
I would be curious to see your setup. Link please.
I am feeling too lazy to search the forums properly.
Just look on page one of this thread - I posted it there.
Doh!
:reads Zara Skyraay's Drake setup:
...that...that is almost the exact setup I gave as a suggestion to some of my alliance mates.
EDIT: I suggested an offline small shield transporter instead of the offline small NOS.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.23 07:04:00 -
[38]
My problem with the drake isn't really the ship, its the stereotypical "drake pilot". The stereotypical "drake pilot" fits the thing like its a ratting op. They have no tackle or they have a disruptor but no web or MWD. They fit no MWD so they move slow as ****. They fit massive passive tank so their DPS hits softer than a typical T1 cruiser. Etc.
Those are the people that give the drake a bad name. The drake itself isn't that bad. If you take someone who is used to flying ships that can't tank well (like the brutix) and slap them into a drake they are damned effective.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.23 07:12:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 23/02/2009 07:17:38
Originally by: Ila Overseer The point of the drake dying off slowly is that really, it holds it's supporting damage for ages. Either that, or it can be used as fairly effective bait, or even a patsy. After all, it is capable of handling quite a lot of damage, even if it's not doing much of it's own.
Quoting failure.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.23 11:21:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Chssmius This is because HAM's don't benefit from Guided Missile Precision, and using Rage only amplifies this problem.
With rages crap explosion radius, velocity + T2 penalities etc, who on earth uses rages instead of Caldari navy HAMs when you're fighting anything smaller than a battleship (or battlecruiser)?
Anyway, 3 BCS in the lows (or tons of EW mids) is the only way to fly a Drake. The meta-game is such that unless they suspect that something is fishy they'll only target you after they've taken away all other opposition (such as Harbingers, Megathrons, geddons etc). As this is the case, to be of any help to your gang you need to deliver the maximum amount of damage. Fitting your ship for "dying slowly" only means that you'll end up dying slowly for sure once the rest of your gang is dead. This instead of actually having a chance of winning.
Especially fail is people focusing on hitpoint recharge instead of maximum hitpoints. Shield power relays and other such PvE crap. Because once they start shooting, unless you can tank them all which you can't (even just 4 Battlecruisers/HACs are going to deal over 2000 dps) you're going to die before that extra recharge has recharged more hitpoints than that LSEII could add. Especially since you only have your optimal recharge for about 10 seconds while they blaze past your 30-40% shield optimal recharge point. |
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Vampasha
Space Piwates
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Posted - 2009.02.23 12:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ila Overseer The point of the drake dying off slowly is that really, it holds it's supporting damage for ages. Either that, or it can be used as fairly effective bait, or even a patsy. After all, it is capable of handling quite a lot of damage, even if it's not doing much of it's own.
A scram would make it better bait ship -------------- I am Zsa Zsa of Borg. Prepare to be assimilated dahling |
Tybalt Usra
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Posted - 2009.02.23 14:12:00 -
[42]
As with a lot of caldari ships the drake is a good pvp boat, even solo. Personally I would not use HAMs, the pro's over heavies do not outweigh the cons imho.
3 * BCU is a must in order to drag your dps up to the point where you can match other BC's in there tanked setups. Buffer tank rather than regen tank, aiming for the 75k mark really, other BC's will struggle to reach this figure while matching you for dps in most practical setups = advantage drake.
Needs MWD, point, web. ECM drones are uber, warriors are nice too, lots of BC setups these days are either buffer tank or single rep which plays more to ecm drones than dps drones.
Once you have that down it's learning to actually fly it, take advantage of your tracking freedom and range versatility etc..
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Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 09:25:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Elite Qin If your Drake isn't passive, you aren't doing it right :P
Lows: 4x Shield Power Relay IIs Med: 3x Shield Extender IIs 1x Kin Resist Amp II 1x Therm Resist Amp II 1x EM Resist Amp II High: Full rack of missile launchers Rigs: 3x Shield Extenders Drones: 5x Hobgoblin IIs
The point of a Drake is to die slowly, you're a support ship, you're not going to be doing that much DPS, but you're not going to die.
You are an idiot. ___________________
A-WAR, much love. <3 |
Eardianm
Duty.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 13:14:00 -
[44]
EFT *****s itt
Ham Drake sucks. Too slow to catch anything, hams don't hit even same class worth a **** without multi-webs and a painter, let alone dealing with **** range, and that buffer tank is a joke. Any other tier 2 BC will melt your face off with a proper tank. --------------
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Zara Skyray
Caldari The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.25 14:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Eardianm EFT *****s itt
Ham Drake sucks. Too slow to catch anything, hams don't hit even same class worth a **** without multi-webs and a painter, let alone dealing with **** range, and that buffer tank is a joke. Any other tier 2 BC will melt your face off with a proper tank.
Speaking from a LOT of experience flying this ship - you don't know what you are talking about. Faction HAMs will hit for full or nearly full damage on everything cruiser-sized or larger. Rages will hit for full on almost any BC, and certainly every BS.
Is the range poor? Yes, compared to HMs. But compared to Blasters, Autocannons and Pulse Lasers - the other "short range, high dps weapons" - the range is fantastic. For solo PvP, the range is irrelevant since you have to be within 24km and with decent skills, a faction-firing HAM Drake can hit 20km.
Is it slow? Only compared to the Minmatar BCs. This Drake will outpace any BC fitted with a plate.
As for your assertion that any other tier 2 BC will "melt" this Drake - bull. This ship can kite almost any Amarr or Gallente BC, keeping out of the range of their pulses/blasters while throwing well over 600dps their way (more than even a rigged tank can handle with cap boosters). Look at the EHP of a gank-fit Brutix or Harby - they have MUCH shorter range, about equal damage and speed and MUCH less tank. If you look at tank fits of the same ships, they do MUCH less damage, have MUCH less speed, still have shorter range and their tanks still aren't enough to handle the HAMs.
If you insist on holding to your idiocy, then I will be happy to meet you ingame to settle the argument - just bring your tier 2 BC to lowsec and we will have a ball.
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Eardianm
Duty.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 14:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Speaking from a LOT of experience flying this ship - you don't know what you are talking about. Faction HAMs will hit for full or nearly full damage on everything cruiser-sized or larger. Rages will hit for full on almost any BC, and certainly every BS.
And speaking from even MORE experienceness, I laugh every time I come up against a drake. I've popped plenty of these ham drakes because they wilt. Yummy EM AND thermal hole to exploit. As in, whatever BC I want will have an opening with ammo switch.
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Is the range poor? Yes, compared to HMs. But compared to Pulse Lasers - the other "short range, high dps weapons" - the range is fantastic.
lolwat. Your hams are going to get like 12-14km range after missile speed up is figured in. even less with rage, which hopefully you are using so I get even more damage mitigation. But thankfully there isn't a t2 pulse range ammo to hold you at bay...owait!
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Is it slow? Only compared to the Minmatar BCs. This Drake will outpace any BC fitted with a plate.
...and if you're going to load up javs for more range, kiss this plus goodbye. Along with your inflated DPS numbers
Originally by: Zara Skyray
If you insist on holding to your idiocy, then I will be happy to meet you ingame to settle the argument - just bring your tier 2 BC to lowsec and we will have a ball.
Why bother setting up 1 fight when I can have an all day buffet from the people following these crap threads --------------
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.25 14:45:00 -
[47]
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Zara Skyray
Caldari The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.25 16:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Eardianm
And speaking from even MORE experienceness, I laugh every time I come up against a drake. I've popped plenty of these ham drakes because they wilt. Yummy EM AND thermal hole to exploit. As in, whatever BC I want will have an opening with ammo switch.
Having looked up your "experience" I am even more puzzled by your resistance to my fit. Because on the first page of your killboard, the MAJORITY of the kills you've made have been in a HAM DRAKE!!!!
The two HAM drakes you've lost this month, in fact, have been fitted almost IDENTICALLY to the one I've fit (in one case, the only difference is you replaced on Extender Rig for an Anti-Thermal rig - a cheaper fit, but one with a weaker tank)
Why, if this fit is so worthless, do you insist on flying it? If it is so worthless, how have you gotten so many kills in it?
Your Battleclinic Page
Is the reason that you refuse to come meet me is that you'd have to BRING MY OWN FIT to kill me? Or is it that you can't hack it in lowsec?
This is such blatant hypocrisy and trolling that the mind boggles. Apparently HAMs hit well enough for you to solo kill a Sacrilege and to lead the damage numbers against Hurricanes, Prophecies, Hyperions etc. etc.
Go troll somewhere else.
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Tactikill
Caldari Allied Tactical Unit
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Posted - 2009.02.25 17:35:00 -
[49]
Not sure about the MWD. A Drake is a very attractive target in low-sec and 0.0. The majority of these pilots will have scrams fitted which kill an MWD. So, I'd advise replacing the MWD with another LSE II to give you 75K EHP.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.25 17:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tactikill Not sure about the MWD. A Drake is a very attractive target in low-sec and 0.0. The majority of these pilots will have scrams fitted which kill an MWD. So, I'd advise replacing the MWD with another LSE II to give you 75K EHP.
In my experience traveling through lowsec, the MWD comes in handy for getting into range, heading to gate when in trouble and getting out of bad situations against larger ships.
While many ships will have scram, MOST BSs and BCs (the ships that have a good chance of killing you) will use Disruptors for their longer range. If you let a BS or BC get within 9km of you, you've done something wrong... horribly, horribly wrong. With the MWD, you should be able to maintain range on such ships.
Imagine (as has happened to me more than once) that t1 cruiser and a BS gets the jump on you. The cruiser scrams you - negating your MWD - the BS is 17km from you. With this setup, you should be able to pop the cruisers fairly quickly, which will allow you to MWD away from the BS. You get a kill and live to fight another day.
Without the MWD, ANY BS with a AB or MWD that gets the jump on you WILL kill you, since you won't be able to escape. Unless you can kill him first, you are toast.
In all, the MWD is generally going to serve you better "survival-wise" than another 10k EHP.
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Tactikill
Caldari Allied Tactical Unit
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Posted - 2009.02.25 18:00:00 -
[51]
Good points. My experience has been I jump to a gate, jump through gate, gang on other side. You get scramed and webbed and eventually die. With another LSE II, you might have time to kill the scram and warp away. I will have to work with both fits and see which one is better for me.
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.25 18:20:00 -
[52]
Short range weapons systems (HAMS) w/ no MWD is a comedy mail waiting to happen tbh. Actually pretty much any non cap or any non snipe setup w/o a MWD is a fail setup.
The situation you describe is very rare, as generally you'll be pointed by multiple ships anyways. Your best bet is still to fit an MWD, burn back to the gate and hope everyone that can tackle aggro's you, then jump back through.
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Tactikill
Caldari Allied Tactical Unit
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Posted - 2009.02.25 19:54:00 -
[53]
Right, often there is more than one tackler on a gate camp. I agree. But doesn't your point of multiple tackler's reinforce my point that a MWD is useless? I feel that if you can remain on the offensive, then an MWD works. If you fight more defensive battles then I think more tank is better.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.25 20:42:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tactikill Right, often there is more than one tackler on a gate camp. I agree. But doesn't your point of multiple tackler's reinforce my point that a MWD is useless? I feel that if you can remain on the offensive, then an MWD works. If you fight more defensive battles then I think more tank is better.
Maneuverability is life.
Dictate range you win - enemy dictates range, they win.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Zara Skyray
Caldari The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:10:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tactikill Right, often there is more than one tackler on a gate camp. I agree. But doesn't your point of multiple tackler's reinforce my point that a MWD is useless? I feel that if you can remain on the offensive, then an MWD works. If you fight more defensive battles then I think more tank is better.
Originally by: Tactikill Right, often there is more than one tackler on a gate camp. I agree. But doesn't your point of multiple tackler's reinforce my point that a MWD is useless? I feel that if you can remain on the offensive, then an MWD works. If you fight more defensive battles then I think more tank is better.
Two possible scenarios at a gatecamp: 1) Single tackler w/ webber - MWD wins, because you'll get back to the gate (1 web still = 500m/s = 20s to return to gate). Without MWD, you are going 100m/s which means 100s to return to gate, and thus are much more likely to die 2) Multiple tacklers, multiple webbers - Both are probably going to die because, no matter what, you are receiving loads of damage and going VERY slowly. However, the MWD gives you a CHANCE to get back by aligning to gate and hitting MWD immediately (you'll get off a cycle or so before you are locked down), while the extra 10k EHP isn't likely to buy you more than a few seconds before you die.
Here's my point - without MWD, you will be unable to escape from ANY BS with an afterburner and point, and the BS will almost always kill you as a result. The extra 10k EHP will rarely save you from anything, in practical terms, only buy you more time.
Plus, for a pirate (which I am), I need to be able to close range to a target before they warp off and maintain range long enough to kill them. Without MWD, I'm not going to kill many people. And the point of ANY pvp ship is (primarily) to kill people, not just "avoid death." This makes an MWD pure win for me.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:20:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Eardianm
And speaking from even MORE experienceness, I laugh every time I come up against a drake. I've popped plenty of these ham drakes because they wilt. Yummy EM AND thermal hole to exploit. As in, whatever BC I want will have an opening with ammo switch.
Quit trolling. For a guy that thinks ham drakes suck they're the only drakes you fly - going back over the last year you haven't killed a single one.
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Eardianm
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
Originally by: Eardianm
And speaking from even MORE experienceness, I laugh every time I come up against a drake. I've popped plenty of these ham drakes because they wilt. Yummy EM AND thermal hole to exploit. As in, whatever BC I want will have an opening with ammo switch.
Quit trolling. For a guy that thinks ham drakes suck they're the only drakes you fly - going back over the last year you haven't killed a single one.
Oh I figured I would stretch way more out of this too
Yes, the fit is fine, and it will eat almost all other BCs just fine (and you can look back way further than 6 months if you want ). Just a bit tired of seeing the same threads over and over --------------
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AFTERMARKET
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Posted - 2009.02.26 07:19:00 -
[58]
"No-one primaries a Drake first," Everyone says this like its a good thing, but if they have DPS its going to be pointed at something in your gang, so its not really such a good thing, so i might be wrong. Don't have a lot of PvP experience, mostly just "hey they have a gang of seven bc/cruisers on a gate and we have a gang of 12 BC/BS , lets go f them up"
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.26 07:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: AFTERMARKET "No-one primaries a Drake first," Everyone says this like its a good thing, but if they have DPS its going to be pointed at something in your gang, so its not really such a good thing, so i might be wrong. Don't have a lot of PvP experience, mostly just "hey they have a gang of seven bc/cruisers on a gate and we have a gang of 12 BC/BS , lets go f them up"
What they mean by that is that there's no point in fitting your Drake so it can tank God, Lucifer and Bill O'Reilly at the same time since it doesn't help you in any way. They will just 'peel' off the others first and kill you last. So you might as well NOT tank it like mad and actually fit for damage and possibly some Ewar to be useful while the fight is going on and perhaps make a difference.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Tactikill
Caldari Allied Tactical Unit
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Posted - 2009.02.26 14:59:00 -
[60]
This I agree with. I have a PvP fitted Drake that's fit for damage dealing and scramming, had a decent tank but is slow as hell. I'll try fitting an MWD and see what happens! Wish it had one more mid-slot and a bit more CPU. T2 Drake anyone?
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