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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.02.24 13:16:00 -
[31]
Originally by: DMF KingBob
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Sounds to me, like a lot of folks heard "respec" and immediately assumed they could min/max their characters every few months.
Hoping to dump a bunch into CHA, train up all the Leadership/Social/Trade skills... and then in a few months they could readjust and power level some other set of skills.
They all made such a big uproar about how awesome it would be, and how they were all excited at the prospect of exploiting the system and getting their epeen as big and powerful as they could manage in those few months...
So CCP, in their infinite wisdom, has taken away the exploit before it truly became one. They've pushed it further off, making it more of what THEY had intended instead of what YOU hoped it would mean for you.
So, everyone can either keep whining and b!tching about how disappointed you are. Or you can appreciate the fact that you get to respec at all. CCP could have left it exactly as it has been these last few years. Until now, you were stuck with what you had, and you were thankful for the implants and skillbooks.
Still want to gripe? Maybe CCP will limit it to brand new characters only. That'd be fun, eh?
whats your problem with faster skilling ?
The problem is that it's another thing you have to do to stay where you are, relatively speaking. CCP have said that they regret introducing the learning skills, because it's the same mechanic. It's not really a choice whether you train them or not (to at least 4/3, going beyond that becomes some kind of payoff), it's not fun and it doesn't really bring anything to the game. While rapid attribute remapping wouldn't be a time sink in the same way that training learning skills is, it does devalue the point of attributes altogether in that you boost a pair of them up to 15/14 (or whatever the sensible maximum is), train the skills that use them, and then respec to the next pair of attributes. In a situation like this you may as well just remove attributes altogether and have everyone train at the same speed.
Additionally, there's the issue of skill inflation - everyone would be training faster, and consequently there's no real boost in a relative sense, but you're able to get prerequisite skills done faster. Personally I don't think that would benefit EVE that much at all; the training times are good and give you something to work towards, while at the same time promoting use of "lesser" ships like T1 and letting you experience a real sense of progression. If training speed was doubled, then for most characters it would cheapen the game (except for the real new players who are still discovering, which coincidentally is exactly what is going to happen).
So - there you go, I don't see any advantage to faster skilling and in the long run think that it'll only make the game more shallow.
And consequently I'm glad that the respec is extremely limited in scope (6 months is too often), so that it lets you change a broad focus and correct mistakes, rather than min-maxing.
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DMF KingBob
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Posted - 2009.02.24 13:34:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: DMF KingBob
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Sounds to me, like a lot of folks heard "respec" and immediately assumed they could min/max their characters every few months.
Hoping to dump a bunch into CHA, train up all the Leadership/Social/Trade skills... and then in a few months they could readjust and power level some other set of skills.
They all made such a big uproar about how awesome it would be, and how they were all excited at the prospect of exploiting the system and getting their epeen as big and powerful as they could manage in those few months...
So CCP, in their infinite wisdom, has taken away the exploit before it truly became one. They've pushed it further off, making it more of what THEY had intended instead of what YOU hoped it would mean for you.
So, everyone can either keep whining and b!tching about how disappointed you are. Or you can appreciate the fact that you get to respec at all. CCP could have left it exactly as it has been these last few years. Until now, you were stuck with what you had, and you were thankful for the implants and skillbooks.
Still want to gripe? Maybe CCP will limit it to brand new characters only. That'd be fun, eh?
whats your problem with faster skilling ?
The problem is that it's another thing you have to do to stay where you are, relatively speaking. CCP have said that they regret introducing the learning skills, because it's the same mechanic. It's not really a choice whether you train them or not (to at least 4/3, going beyond that becomes some kind of payoff), it's not fun and it doesn't really bring anything to the game. While rapid attribute remapping wouldn't be a time sink in the same way that training learning skills is, it does devalue the point of attributes altogether in that you boost a pair of them up to 15/14 (or whatever the sensible maximum is), train the skills that use them, and then respec to the next pair of attributes. In a situation like this you may as well just remove attributes altogether and have everyone train at the same speed.
Additionally, there's the issue of skill inflation - everyone would be training faster, and consequently there's no real boost in a relative sense, but you're able to get prerequisite skills done faster. Personally I don't think that would benefit EVE that much at all; the training times are good and give you something to work towards, while at the same time promoting use of "lesser" ships like T1 and letting you experience a real sense of progression. If training speed was doubled, then for most characters it would cheapen the game (except for the real new players who are still discovering, which coincidentally is exactly what is going to happen).
So - there you go, I don't see any advantage to faster skilling and in the long run think that it'll only make the game more shallow.
And consequently I'm glad that the respec is extremely limited in scope (6 months is too often), so that it lets you change a broad focus and correct mistakes, rather than min-maxing.
so i was thinking it gives the un-dynamic skill system an little bit dynamic wich effects by the noobs maybe just in hours but by the end-players in weeks
and the remap window means to me that ccp has given up the advanced and elite implants...
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MatStar
Altruism. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.02.24 16:01:00 -
[33]
slightly off topic kinda but, on the neural remap screen it says how much your implants are giving you to your attributes max+5, however on skills it goes upto 14? max you can get exluding learning skill bonus to them is +10. is there some new learning skills? i cant see any on the market
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.24 16:43:00 -
[34]
So CCP introduces the possibility of neutral remap after 6 years and now people are complaining that once every year is not enough...
________________ God is my Wingman |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:30:00 -
[35]
Originally by: DMF KingBob so i was thinking it gives the un-dynamic skill system an little bit dynamic wich effects by the noobs maybe just in hours but by the end-players in weeks
I'm not sure how you see training faster as increasing or decreasing the level of dynamism in the skill system. In fact if anything it decreases it - with frequent remapping possibilities, one would lose out a lot more from a quick switch to something that just came up (e.g. corp just got wardecced, quickly spend a few days training ECM skills and Caldari Cruiser in order to give support in Blackbird). Currently people usually have their attributes fairly even, meaning that putting your current skill plan on hold for a bit and switching doesn't really mean you lose out that much. However, if you were currently min-maxing some Int-Mem skills, and the situation presented itself where it would really benefit your corp to train some Per-Wil (spaceship command) skills, you'd be a lot more reticent to switch with the horrible training speed you'd get.
I don't know if you remember what it was like training learning skills back when you were starting, but that's a similar situation. While there are skills you could train to benefit you now, it's inefficient to do so and the optimal solution in the mid-long term is to finish training the learning skills and then train some actually useful skills. With rapid respecs leading to min-maxing of attributes, we basically get this situation constantly. If you have maximum values in two attributes and minimum values in the others, you have more or less committed yourself to only training those attribute-specific skills, or taking a horrendous efficiency hit that many will shy away from.
Obviously the solution to this is to have the attributes evenly distributed as they are now - even with the remap option. However, as the remapping frequency increases, the penalties in terms of loss of flexibility decrease while the rewards increase (more and more feasible to come up with a sensible plan training just those attributes' skills for that amount of time without resorting to training long skills for the sake of it). And in an environment where almost everyone will be taking advantage of the situation, you have two choices: either to train at a notably slower speed than everyone else, or to give up the flexibility of being able to pick up quick new unplanned skills as the need dictates.
Now I know that EVE is all about choices and this could be portrayed as yet another choice to make; but I don't think this particular one would be good game design. Giving up a ~30% increase in training speed for some hypothetical situation that might make you want to train something else isn't really an option, you'd be quite silly to take the latter really. Consequently it effectively locks people into attribute paired skill training and thus decreases the dynamic nature of skill training progression.
And this is in addition to faster training in general being an undesirable thing, as I mentioned above.
Quote: and the remap window means to me that ccp has given up the advanced and elite implants...
I expect they gave up on those years ago. Besides, I can't see what problem it would solve introducing them or how it would benefit the game (same issue as faster training in general really).
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Bacabachaui
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:49:00 -
[36]
1 year is just fine, maybe even too often imo. It is just supposed to be a chance to do what you would have done in the first place if you knew then what you know now. When you start playing Eve you don't even know what you don't know you needed to know-but yet you still make some of the most important decisions about your character anyway. By the time you realize what you're doing, you have invested way to much time in your character to start over. So 1 time is fine as far as I am concerned. The only good decision I feel I made and that I would never change was to be Gallente! :) It should be restricted to characters 6 months or older so they have to wait until they know what they are doing, then 1 change after that for the life of the character.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.02.24 19:07:00 -
[37]
1 year is so much better than 6 months, I'm not sure I can even put it into words here.
6 months was going to result in spamming the ability to max out skills for 6 months, switch, max out, switch, rinse repeate.
It would have effectively given everyone the same damn stat line (give or take a point or two for imps depending on how rich you are).
They are already completely obliterating the reason to choose any given race/bloodline with the new skill and remap rules as it is...at least with it at one year cool down, it will force people to actually choose something and deal with it instead of just letting them put 40 in two attribute types every 6 months.
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.24 19:07:00 -
[38]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/02/2009 19:10:08
Originally by: Venatoris Portucalis Edited by: Venatoris Portucalis on 22/02/2009 22:07:31 Tbh, 6 Months sounded like a perfect time, long enought so u dont tend to switch on a whim, and short enought so u can adapt and take the most advantage on your skill plan. 1 year was way too long IMHO.
That was the idea...
It's nice right now that a lot of us don't even have to think about attribs except sticking implants in now and then.
I doubt too many older players want to have to start playing stupid min/maxing games out of remaining competitive because you can effectivly double your skill training time if done correctly.
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Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.24 19:20:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Hypnotic
Originally by: DMF KingBob
Originally by: Furb Killer The idea behind neural remapping isn't that you can train your skills faster without downsides.
for what is it then ?
We should all remember, attribute respec was introduced so we could remove the assigning of attribute points from character creation. This way new players could make these choices after being properly educated about what the attributes actually do for them. The happy side effect of creating this new code and interface was that we were able to offer the feature to current players, allowing them to fix mistakes made in character creation as well as facilitating the optimization of long term skill plans. Since Sisi is an environment for us to try different options and settings we've been working on our definition of "long term." Originally it was 6 months, it is now 1 year.
"fix mistakes made in character creation" - you need *one* chance for this.
"facilitating the optimization of long term skill plans" - why?
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.02.24 20:21:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar
"facilitating the optimization of long term skill plans" - why?
because keeping EXISTING customers happy when they realise that the stat build they have is now sub optimal a year or more into the game due to a change in how they play or changes made to the game by the developers introducine something new to the game > trying to convince new people to play the game.
Or in other words, its a once a year deal. Given EvE subscriber turnover (~ 8 months is the average subscription lenght) the odds are you will not be playing EvE a year from now anyway So why the hell are you worried about it?
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
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Erika Bronz
Gallente The Wyld Hunt
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Posted - 2009.02.26 15:27:00 -
[41]
If this remapping is redistributing those few points in character creation every once in a year, I don't like it. They should rather call it character evolving, and let you change attribute points from your base stats every now and then, with unlimited longterm result. Say, 1 point every 6 or 12 month sounds nice. Of course I can foresee that some combat pilots will remove their base charisma all together, but it's rather natural that all the fighting will harden a man and weaken his abilities to train social skills, and vica verca.
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Arren Lark
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Posted - 2009.02.26 17:46:00 -
[42]
Originally by: MatStar slightly off topic kinda but, on the neural remap screen it says how much your implants are giving you to your attributes max+5, however on skills it goes upto 14? max you can get exluding learning skill bonus to them is +10. is there some new learning skills? i cant see any on the market
I was curious about this as well, though the maximum is actually 13 from skills (15 base + 5 implants + 10 stat learning skills = 30, 10% learning 5 bonus = 3, hence 13 points from skills)
But 14? Where are we gonna get 10 new points from? Base increase? +15 implants? Implementer can't count? |
Flinchey
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.26 18:12:00 -
[43]
12 months is quite fine by me
i set up a skill plan that i actually wanted for the next 12 months
i went from 340 days to 250... really... having a respec every 6 months would just make things stupid... you'd have virtually halved training times accross the board.
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Imertu Solientai
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Posted - 2009.02.26 21:03:00 -
[44]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt "Hey you should give us attribute remapping"
"Now that you're giving it to us, it is way too long. Give it to me so I can do it every day."
"Oh look, a thread"
"Hey, now that I've read the thread and don't have anything constructive to post I'll just troll it."
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Solomon XI
Kult of Kaos R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2009.02.27 00:20:00 -
[45]
Just my two-cents:
I liked the whole *six month* attribute re-spec. As most plans I have are four-to-six months in length. The one year per re-spec is a tad excessive. Six months was by far, better.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.27 00:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai
Originally by: An Anarchyyt "Hey you should give us attribute remapping"
"Now that you're giving it to us, it is way too long. Give it to me so I can do it every day."
"Oh look, a thread"
"Hey, now that I've read the thread and don't have anything constructive to post I'll just troll it."
"Oh look, a post"
"Hey, now that I've read the post and don't have anything constructive to post I'll just troll it."
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.02.27 01:23:00 -
[47]
I would have been happy with a single respec for each char....but once a year is not a bad compromise.
Its long enough that will keep most chars, at least mains, from min/maxing so they can retain at least some flexibility.
Although I will point out that once your char is old enough, you can easily fill a year with just per/will skills and not have to worry too much, since you have all the other skills you need all done....and you are just topping off some b!ching lvl5s.
Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
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Flinchey
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.27 07:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Imertu Solientai
Originally by: An Anarchyyt "Hey you should give us attribute remapping"
"Now that you're giving it to us, it is way too long. Give it to me so I can do it every day."
"Oh look, a thread"
"Hey, now that I've read the thread and don't have anything constructive to post I'll just troll it."
"Oh look, a post"
"Hey, now that I've read the post and don't have anything constructive to post I'll just troll it."
THEY SEE ME TROLLIN' inbe4 troll post of a troll post. /back on topic guys, come on, this is a good topic, dont kill it.
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Hobgoblin ll
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Posted - 2009.02.27 08:20:00 -
[49]
People should pay a PLEX for remapping.
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Candace Wolf
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Posted - 2009.02.28 07:27:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar
"facilitating the optimization of long term skill plans" - why?
because keeping EXISTING customers happy when they realise that the stat build they have is now sub optimal a year or more into the game due to a change in how they play or changes made to the game by the developers introducine something new to the game > trying to convince new people to play the game.
Or in other words, its a once a year deal. Given EvE subscriber turnover (~ 8 months is the average subscription lenght) the odds are you will not be playing EvE a year from now anyway So why the hell are you worried about it?
Exactly.. this char here was created as a leadership character.. but now in a few days i have Wing Command 5 and i want her to be more than just the char sitting in a pos and having 7 mods running.. and because i have overdone it, her perception sucks.. i thought about selling her.. but i love her somehow :P
Now with the respec i can finally make a balanced char out of her and have a little bit of fun for my 15 euros / month
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.28 07:44:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Arren Lark
Originally by: MatStar slightly off topic kinda but, on the neural remap screen it says how much your implants are giving you to your attributes max+5, however on skills it goes upto 14? max you can get exluding learning skill bonus to them is +10. is there some new learning skills? i cant see any on the market
I was curious about this as well, though the maximum is actually 13 from skills (15 base + 5 implants + 10 stat learning skills = 30, 10% learning 5 bonus = 3, hence 13 points from skills)
But 14? Where are we gonna get 10 new points from? Base increase? +15 implants? Implementer can't count?
if i rember you could made amarr amarr with 16 base will |
James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.28 09:12:00 -
[52]
6 month respecs seemed better then yearly to me, and from the new player experience perspective they make a hell of a lot more sense - if you're average burn out time is 8 months, then giving people an opportunity to correct defects in their character creation 6 months in seems like it might hit right about the time those 30+ day skill trains start to dominate and help with the burn out (by letting them say, get out of mining and into combat ships - the mistake so many of us made).
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Candace Wolf
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Posted - 2009.02.28 10:17:00 -
[53]
Yeah.. 6 months sounded great..
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Lady d'Lay
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.28 11:39:00 -
[54]
Originally by: DeadDuck So CCP introduces the possibility of neutral remap after 6 years and now people are complaining that once every year is not enough...
Yep, I am also "impressed" about the level of greedyness and ignorance.
1st there was nothing compareable. Now CCP allows for slight adjustments once a year, which is great ! And people are still moaning.
Guys, come on, this is no "fast food game" like in other games where you play 10h a day and reach the last level after 1 year. And this new feature is not intended to be a general multi purpose skill training booster.
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Suga H
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.28 19:20:00 -
[55]
I'd be really happy with some sort of SP based time limit. Say, for someone <500k SP, a month until next remap. 500k-1m, 3 months. 1m-2m, 6 months. 2-4m a year. 4-10m 2 years. >10m 5 years.
Gives new chars more flexibility, takes away from skill farming later on. Personally, at 30m sp, I would be completely happy with a single remap, and would only use more remaps for sp farming. But a year until your next remap seems a bit harsh to those that are just getting into the game.
Also maybe make the remap cost as much sp as you have, or free. Having it cost 5m would be harsh on a new char, but is reasonably/cheap for someone playing for 6 months.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.02.28 20:52:00 -
[56]
right, awesome feature - but 1 year instead of 6 months remap timer has two problems: 1. The average playing time of people in eve is less than 1 year (old stats, might have changed). 2. 1 year remap is actually better for older player than younger players. Why? Because older players already have the "support" skills pretty much trained out meaning they can max the attribs required for specialization. For example - I've finished all my cap, armor and shield skills and can now just max perc/will and go for all the ships, missiles and guns without having to look back.
As a "means" to fixing old attribute assignment mistakes - it also gives training time bonus to older players over younger players.
Fix suggestion: Allow less skilled players to remap more frequently. More skillpoints means its more difficult to remap, it'd be like the jump timer that takes the number of skillpoints into consideration when counting down to the next remap. . |
Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:41:00 -
[57]
1 year cooldown is good to prevent the "optimal" plans you guys are thinking.
6 months would make it too easy to have max attributes all the time.
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Rhohan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.01 02:13:00 -
[58]
The purpose of the remap should not be to maximize your training for any char. It is meant to either correct errors made during creation(new chars) or to change professions(older chars).
Once per 6 mo is too quick, once per 1 yr might be ok, once per 2 yr is probably too long.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.01 02:46:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Barkaial Starfinder 1 year cooldown is good to prevent the "optimal" plans you guys are thinking.
6 months would make it too easy to have max attributes all the time.
I don't really see a problem with people having max attributes all the time. This is what people should have, and a lot of us have min/maxed alts for exactly this reason. Not allowing more frequent remaps hurts newbies a hell of a lot more, and well, they're more important really.
The point is, over the 6 months you min/max, you're going to be punished for training outside what you've chosen to do and there's no ship in EVE which solely needs Per/Will to fly effectively.
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Dreamwalker
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Posted - 2009.03.02 06:56:00 -
[60]
Originally by: CCP Hypnotic We should all remember, attribute respec was introduced so we could remove the assigning of attribute points from character creation. we've been working on our definition of "long term." Originally it was 6 months, it is now 1 year.
Thank you for letting me fix my starting mistake from over 4 years ago. And thank you for letting me fix some of my other mistakes from over 2 years ago.
I don't care if its a one time thing or it takes a year, just to be able to fix it without having to reroll a char that is years(more than one) is good enough for me.
Originally by: CCP Whisper Local chat in known 0.0, low sec and empire space will remain as it is today, in all it's insta-intel giving, afk cloaker panic inducing, jita trade spamming glory.
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