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Are we losing two subsystems per type?

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Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.25 14:36:00 - [61] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 25/02/2009 14:36:46 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Hmm, let me ask it this way; If you had the choice, would you rather the expansion came with all the bells and whistles, or on time? Would you be willing to give another month for the expansion to come? IF you had to choose, would you rather have less content which is "perfected", or more content that is half-donkeyd together? Given that it's the summer expansion that's coming in MARCH, I'd much, much, much rather have them finish what they're working on before putting it out instead of cutting features for EVE's "biggext expansion yet." Hell if it weren't for the fact that this is EVE's retail launch I wouldn't even care if it all gets put out at the same time. I dunno, a lot of the stuff in Apocrypha is genuinely good and exciting. But it feels like a lot of the features and stuff is rushed or getting cut to make room for this big march 10th release, and I think it shows. __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.25 14:44:00 - [62] Originally by: Terianna Eri Given that it's the summer expansion that's coming in MARCH, I'd much, much, much rather have them finish what they're working on before putting it out instead of cutting features for EVE's "biggext expansion yet." Hell if it weren't for the fact that this is EVE's retail launch I wouldn't even care if it all gets put out at the same time. I dunno, a lot of the stuff in Apocrypha is genuinely good and exciting. But it feels like a lot of the features and stuff is rushed or getting cut to make room for this big march 10th release, and I think it shows. That stuff is perfectly fine with me. Give new/older players some time to settle in with the new, and have the rest release a bit later, fine. But then set a timeline, not a soon(tm), and don't freaking announce things half a year earlier saying "this will come". The major issue with CCP is not that they fail to deliver, they always do. It's that they fail to deliver what they promise.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.02.25 14:45:00 - [63] Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 25/02/2009 14:45:25 Checks watch That's funny. I swear that this expansion is 3 months early. Oh wait, they're also releasing WiS and the unknooooooown expaaaaaansssiooooon this year. I can forgive CCP for scaling down one aspect of the content. ________________________________________________
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.02.25 14:49:00 - [64] Very disappointing. No one forced CCP to do a summer expansion in spring or to set expectations that high ("combinations in the literal thousands blablabla"). Why not start with some understatement and then suprise people? Modesty i guess can be useful for designers too... -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:12:00 - [65] Originally by: Terianna Eri Yeah, I know game design and coding are two different divisions, but maybe if you hadn't had people coding some dueling arena instead... Wait... what? An arena for duels? Please say this is a cruel and obnoxious joke. Pleeeaaase.... -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Mal'ol Soddo	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:23:00 - [66] Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: Terianna Eri Yeah, I know game design and coding are two different divisions, but maybe if you hadn't had people coding some dueling arena instead... Wait... what? An arena for duels? Please say this is a cruel and obnoxious joke. Pleeeaaase.... On sisi there a shortcut, and possibly a station button to enter the "combat simulator". Apparently it was later cut due to technical constraints.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:30:00 - [67] Originally by: Mal'ol Soddo Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: Terianna Eri Yeah, I know game design and coding are two different divisions, but maybe if you hadn't had people coding some dueling arena instead... Wait... what? An arena for duels? Please say this is a cruel and obnoxious joke. Pleeeaaase.... On sisi there a shortcut, and possibly a station button to enter the "combat simulator". Apparently it was later cut due to technical constraints. You guys need to check this. Apparantly CCP was working on a 1v1 duel arena that'd be ranked.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:43:00 - [68] reads link vomits I am not even going there... But shame on you guys at CCP if that is how it is. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Misanth Apparantly CCP was working on a 1v1 duel arena that'd be ranked. That actually doesn't say exactly what the final design iteration and constraints of the "Arena" would be. But anyone it isn't happening. Are we losing two subsystems? Well, are we gaining T3 hulls and 3 subsystems? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:51:00 - [70] Another failed expansion is forming... Wtf.. since after trinity CCP has raising the bar of fail quite a lot. Empyrean crap, NErfign rise and now , ApoCRAPta
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:56:00 - [71] Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans In the initial release of Apocrypha on March 10th, three subsystem types will be available per subsystem per race. Number of possible permutation per race = 555 = 125. Total number of new ship permutations in game = 4 (races) * 125 = 500. Fourth variation will be released in Apocrypha 1.1. Release date to be determined. We have a fixed amount of resources working on the subsystems. We decided to opt for quality rather than quantity for the March 10th release, thus scoped down to have better looking graphics and are introducing more assets later once we're finished with the graphis. Meaning SOON(TM). you forgot to ass that its pre nerfed.. like the blackops.. :\| www.garia.net
Wazamaan	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Polinus Another failed expansion is forming... Wtf.. since after trinity CCP has raising the bar of fail quite a lot. Empyrean crap, NErfign rise and now , ApoCRAPta You can always play WoW / other generic MMORPG Polinus. Then when you realise that only CCP read their forums, and try their best to include unique additions to the game that mix things up a bit, and keep us thinking, you can come crawling back to Eve Online. If you don't like change, play WoW, it's been the same since it's first day. I'd love to see your face when you get banned from the WoW forums for whining about how limited WoW is.

CCP t0rfifrans	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:05:00 - [73] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans In the initial release of Apocrypha on March 10th, three subsystem types will be available per subsystem per race. Number of possible permutation per race = 555 = 125. Total number of new ship permutations in game = 4 (races) * 125 = 500. Hmm, something is odd here. So you say that each of the subsystems(Propulsion, defensive, offensive, etc) will have 3 different types each? Because the math(5^3) does give 125. But that assume there's just 3 subsystems(Propulsion, defensive and offensive) with 5 different each. But if there's 5 subsystems with 3 different modules(for a lack of better word) each, that's 3^5 according to my math, giving 243 ships for each race. I must assume the latter is the case in terms of consistency, since it would then be the case that the last 2 subsystems then are fixed until 1.1. It would be the same amount of work(3 * 5 = 5 * 3) however it would leave out the last 2 tiers of subsystems rather than the last the last 2 sets of full tiers. Military experts are calling this an epic maths fail on my behalf. You are right. However, the fourth variation has been mostl designed and almost made it into M10, so getting it in is a matter of 3-9 weeks after M10. The time the fifth variation will be launched is dependant on the interest and pick-up of T3 ships. Would I have liked to have all five at M10? Of course? But considering the life time of assets in EVE, I want what goes in there to be polished and smooth rather than rushed so the decision was taken to focus on the three and make them awesome, which they certainly are.

Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Wazamaan Originally by: Polinus Another failed expansion is forming... Wtf.. since after trinity CCP has raising the bar of fail quite a lot. Empyrean crap, NErfign rise and now , ApoCRAPta You can always play WoW / other generic MMORPG Polinus. Then when you realise that only CCP read their forums, and try their best to include unique additions to the game that mix things up a bit, and keep us thinking, you can come crawling back to Eve Online. If you don't like change, play WoW, it's been the same since it's first day. I'd love to see your face when you get banned from the WoW forums for whining about how limited WoW is. the fact remains that CCP should not promise stuff when they clearly had no clue if they could do it in time! That way they would have a small set of stuff for expansion, but COMPLETE and workign stuff. I very much doubt (based on current sisi status and improvments on last few weeks) that march 10 we will have something usable.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:25:00 - [75] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 25/02/2009 16:31:14 Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans The time the fifth variation will be launched is dependant on the interest and pick-up of T3 ships. Isn't this backwards? You have the potential to make a feature really awesome, widely used, and change the face of New Eden altogether and then surely build on that success (well, finish) it at a later date. The fact it seems that your not confident in the features interest is deeply worrying. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:34:00 - [76] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 25/02/2009 16:31:14 Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans The time the fifth variation will be launched is dependant on the interest and pick-up of T3 ships. Isn't this backwards? You have the potential to make a feature really awesome, widely used, and change the face of New Eden altogether and then surely build on that success (well, finish) it at a later date. The fact it seems that your not confident in the features interest is deeply worrying. The can have all the confidence they want in it, but the basic fact is they aren't the majority of players and can not in fact read minds. If you seem to think that the success or failure depends on one extra subsystem, then I don't really know what to tell you. But it makes more sense to see if a feature becomes super popular before deciding how far up the importance chain it is. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Finnroth Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:42:00 - [77] Edited by: Finnroth on 25/02/2009 16:42:55 A fourth variety sounds promising in this time frame, could make T3 actually interesting. Originally by: An Anarchyyt If you seem to think that the success or failure depends on one extra subsystem, then I don't really know what to tell you. But it makes more sense to see if a feature becomes super popular before deciding how far up the importance chain it is. You have to consider, that there're vastly more possibilitys for fittings with each group of modules added on top of that. Adding "just another couple" equates to seriously a lot more ships, and not just on paper but in acutal options to put them together (in a useful manner). This stuff is all about choices and customizability, so i have to agree wirth Pattern Clarc. If you cut it down, you make it less appealing wich leads to less use ig which projects a feel of non interest in this feature. And this is basically wrong - one just has to read the forums to see they were pretty much anticipated.
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:52:00 - [78] Originally by: Polinus the fact remains that CCP should not promise stuff when they clearly had no clue if they could do it in time! That way they would have a small set of stuff for expansion, but COMPLETE and workign stuff. I very much doubt (based on current sisi status and improvments on last few weeks) that march 10 we will have something usable. CCP has always told us that anything and everything can change before the release. I think you would know by now that CCP talks a lot about features they want to tinker with BEFORE they decide to put it in the game for good. At fan fest, they told us that they wanted to bring us 5 subsystems with 5 different parts each. As the deadline looms, they are probably realizing that they must prioritize certain features over others. They already had 3 parts done, so they probably decided that they would wait and see how T3 plays out before finishing the other 2.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.25 17:20:00 - [79] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 25/02/2009 17:22:20 Originally by: Finnroth Edited by: Finnroth on 25/02/2009 16:42:55 A fourth variety sounds promising in this time frame, could make T3 actually interesting. Originally by: An Anarchyyt If you seem to think that the success or failure depends on one extra subsystem, then I don't really know what to tell you. But it makes more sense to see if a feature becomes super popular before deciding how far up the importance chain it is. You have to consider, that there're vastly more possibilitys for fittings with each group of modules added on top of that. Adding "just another couple" equates to seriously a lot more ships, and not just on paper but in acutal options to put them together (in a useful manner). This stuff is all about choices and customizability, so i have to agree wirth Pattern Clarc. If you cut it down, you make it less appealing wich leads to less use ig which projects a feel of non interest in this feature. And this is basically wrong - one just has to read the forums to see they were pretty much anticipated. However, in its current iteration, there are still a significant amount of numbers. Yes, to make up some numbers 50,000 is more than 5,000. But 5,000 is still a lot. Frankly, I can see a lot more possibilities in seeing how these play out and possibly adding different types of bonuses to the ships. Ones that are possibly more unique, so we don't just end up with 5 subsystems of 1bil ISK Hac/Recons. I'd like to perhaps see subsystem 4 or 5 be something like "99% percent reduction in CPU/PG for ______ (Focused Warp Disruption, etc etc)." Maybe then with some sort of drawback. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.25 17:45:00 - [80] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Misanth Apparantly CCP was working on a 1v1 duel arena that'd be ranked. That actually doesn't say exactly what the final design iteration and constraints of the "Arena" would be. But anyone it isn't happening. Are we losing two subsystems? Well, are we gaining T3 hulls and 3 subsystems? Quoting that post exactly; "These in fact were "virtual" combat arenas where you could engage in one-on-one consensual ranked PVP combat. The code had to be shelved as the server code doesn't allow for anything virtual within EVE. For instance, every ship that gets destroyed, is destroyed in "reality"." a) "one-on-one" = 1v1 b) "combat arenas", "consensual", "ranked" = there's the design and constraints for you c) you see why it was dropped.. because EVE doesn't allow anything virtual. d) also, speaking of dropped, it was "shelved".. which doesn't mean they killed the whole idea. They had FW shelved for years for example, and the removing of local is an idea that's been shelved, removal of nano was shelved, etc. Now, case c) should get you really worried, because.. well, let's say 100% of EVE wanted a 1v1 ranked arena in game. Fine. But having a virtual environment is going against the whole backbone of EVE. Sandbox. Risk vs reward. The economy, industry, and hell even the PvP would take a hit from this. Essentially the idea of anything virtual in EVE is wrong. The very fact that they had been working on this should be very disturbing for everyone that plays this game. The very fact that they didn't even say it was stopped because of the absurdity, but rather a technical reason, is disturbing. Either way, as for t3 etc.. I already spoke my mind above. It's all fine and dandy with me if they put in less of what's promised and chestbeated about. It's the way they present it that is the major issue. Not the content itself.
Irida Mershkov Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.02.25 17:57:00 - [81] Originally by: Malcanis Even if there are only 3 or 4 "optimal" and 5-6 more "viable-but-niche" combos for each race, that more than doubles the number of >T1 cruisers. Yeah more lego would be great, but I think we'll have enough to keep us entertained for a while tbh. This. Although what we're getting is a little less than originally seen, we're still getting a solid expansion overall. So what? There isn't as many combo's as before? there is still plenty, and the .1/.2 patches etc are usually pretty speedy in pursuit, or so I believe. Although the lack of completed subsystems is a bit sadface. We have got a lot to **** about with.
Antonia Frak Republic University	Posted - 2009.02.25 17:58:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans The time the fifth variation will be launched is dependant on the interest and pick-up of T3 ships. Would I have liked to have all five at M10? Of course? But considering the life time of assets in EVE, I want what goes in there to be polished and smooth rather than rushed so the decision was taken to focus on the three and make them awesome, which they certainly are. Nonono, it's the expansion that is going to be rushed. Apocrypha is being rushed and this is a reality check. What we are trying to tell you is that the last 1-2 years of expansions where full of hype, expectations and reality crashes, all because marketing and trying to get many more players. It's frustrating to discover the "what" and the "why" of all this. You are cheating people, the current customers, and inducing us to write nice and warm reviews, like if we were "fans" or followers, and look, we are customers. What you need is to tone down the hype and level it with reality and expectations as well.
Aya Sin	Posted - 2009.02.25 18:01:00 - [83] Success or failure of Apocrypha? ... If anything, it depends on the new player experience and that first epic arc new players will be sent on as well as shiny graphics and marketing. Nothing else will have anything close to this impact on how well the box sells. T3 would be about the last thing to have any impact on sales at all (except for contributing to the shiny graphics). For that matter, I don't quite understand the fuzz about numbers here. Quality > quantity. I think starting out small and expanding on that is the best thing they can do. Helps them to make the deadline and reduces initial balancing issues.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.25 18:18:00 - [84] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 25/02/2009 18:19:54 So in reality we have hundreds of new ships coming in, and yet we still complain. Gotta love the EVE community. I would suggest you listen to that video from fanfest again, very carefully. While he said we would like to have 5 different subsystems in place for release, the actual number to make it in at release was still up in the air. Eventually we will have 5, it just may take awhile to flesh the concept out, and that is fine as long as the new subsystems are well conceived. Delays, changes, and unexpected issues are the nature of the beast when it comes to software. Frustrating perhaps, but a fact. From the most involved operating system right down to the simplest of applets. Get a little perspective here. No one is thrilled when these things happen, but lets not get carried away and start making accusations implying lies or dishonest of any type on CCP's part. Its simply not true. We are going to have one hell of an expansion to work our way through as it stands, and frankly by the time production of T3 is up and running in game to the point where the majority of the EVE population will have a chance to fly them the 4th subsystem should be ready to be released (soon to be followed by the 5th.) Just relax and show a bit of courtesy. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.25 18:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Ranger 1 Just relax and show a bit of courtesy. Wow. Just wow. You really didn't bother to read mine and some other posts that are extremely positive to CCP and this game as a whole. We're just negative to aspects of it, which is constructive critisism, filled with courtesy it inself. Either way, what the poster above you typed is damn true tho. The boxes and new player experience will have alot more impact on EVE then anything else. Or at least should. If we purely look at content, and compare with other MMO's, we see that most of them have very little "content" added. Hell, many new Xbox games (take one big seller like Gears of War) just "last" for 8-10 hours. MMO expansions, even if they are small, have alot bigger impact. QR hardly added anything, but still have a major impact on PvP. T3/Wormhole is expected to have very little impact on industrialism/PvP, but it adds another flavour. In the light of that, Apo-cry is actually adding something of value that might last for a bit (the mission arc and wormholes will, even if a small part, affect the game in a longer run - it's just like adding levels/instances to fantasy mmo's, or new maps to a fps). Again, I keep repeating myself, but the main issue is how CCP is addressing their customers. It goes back a long time. t20? CSM? Ghost training? Nano-talk back/forth? Promises with each expansion that falls short time and again? And recently this arena project that goes against the very soul and essence of the sandbox EVE. CCP are dreamers. That probably is part of why they are innovative and makes this game great, but it also makes them really good liars and horrible at customer relations. They could probably 'fix' all these problems by removing the CSM altogether, take that cost and invest it in a single PR-guy and whoa, the achilles heel of this game could be cured. Common courtesy would be to listen to people that are constructive and give CCP credit for all the good stuff that is, and try add some constructive feedback to solve the less good. It doesn't make them whiners, rude, etc or whatever.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.25 19:05:00 - [86] If I was directing this specifically at your posts, I would have quoted you nubbins. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.02.25 19:24:00 - [87] Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans The time the fifth variation will be launched is dependant on the interest and pick-up of T3 ships. Would I have liked to have all five at M10? Of course? But considering the life time of assets in EVE, I want what goes in there to be polished and smooth rather than rushed so the decision was taken to focus on the three and make them awesome, which they certainly are. I agree with you that it is better to release something polished than not. However, that is not the case. I would ask you guys to lower the expectations and hence the HYPE, I am sure that had we heard from you that there would be three lego pieces from the get-go, there would be no disappointment. Maybe you could've surprised us with more features had you managed to finish the fourth (and fifth)? You know the mentality, if you tell your kid he'll get a PS3 and you give him a crappy XBOX360, he will be disappointed. If you however tell him from the getgo that he'll receive a silly Microsoft-console he will have more time to cope with the fail of it, and thus have more time to adapt. You were bragging about 5^54 types, we were anticipating them, they were part of the design you let slip out for the forumites to speculate about. Until this very moment there has been no indication that there would be any less than 5^54, so please don't give us the BS about waiting to see if they reach any kind of popularity before getting more out the door. I'm asking myself now: What else will be cut? "Oh, there will be only 200 systems for the wormholes, we wanted less systems because we wanted them to be more polished... oh, and there will be local in wormholes, it was too much of a hassle to set it to delayed mode... oh also, we boosted the falcon and nerfed minmatar some more, we found that it put less of a load on the server if people simply stopped using minmatar" :D
Akor Flandres	Posted - 2009.02.25 19:28:00 - [88] I'd rather have CCP tell us what they're working on, even if they promise too much and need to cut back a little, than tell us little or nothing at all. The trolls on this forum drive me wild.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.25 19:29:00 - [89] I will point out he said the timing on "when" the 5th subsystem will be released would depend on level of interest after release... not "if". Nothing has been cut. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.02.25 19:30:00 - [90] Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans Military experts are calling this an epic maths fail on my behalf. You are right. However, the fourth variation has been mostl designed and almost made it into M10, so getting it in is a matter of 3-9 weeks after M10. * The time the fifth variation will be launched is dependant on the interest and pick-up of T3 ships. Would I have liked to have all five at M10? Of course? But considering the life time of assets in EVE, I want what goes in there to be polished and smooth rather than rushed so the decision was taken to focus on the three and make them awesome, which they certainly are. Translation Wether or not we actualy waste resorces on T3 depends on how badly T3 bombs or how well it succeeds We should have stuck to the usual release dates and not pushed it to may 10 just to get a whoopeee! at fan fest. ***hey at least I did not use devspeak terms like Epic or Revolutionary well at least now you guys know better. . . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence.

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