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Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.13 09:35:00 - [31] I am completely for fitting any ship you fly with full T2 fits. I am sad whenever I have to put a named mod on my Incursus/Thorax/Vexor (and I have to because of my setups). Isk, especially on Cruiser level, is not an issue. 10M difference in fittings = nothing. I would even accept fitting Rigs on them if you know exactly what you want to do with them, have no other way to do it, are going to have more fun flying it than a bigger thing and have the isk to spend.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.13 09:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Ig Neus I am completely for fitting any ship you fly with full T2 fits. I am sad whenever I have to put a named mod on my Incursus/Thorax/Vexor (and I have to because of my setups). Isk, especially on Cruiser level, is not an issue. 10M difference in fittings = nothing. I would even accept fitting Rigs on them if you know exactly what you want to do with them, have no other way to do it, are going to have more fun flying it than a bigger thing and have the isk to spend. The problem with the full T2 fit is you're reducing the cost difference between the T1 cruiser and a T1 BC even more. Once fittings and insurance are considered, you get a huge increase in effectiveness for a disproportionately small increase in price. Of course the lose/lose side of the "how do I fit my T1 cruiser?" question is that if you don't fit full T2, you end up with a ship that's even more of a comedy option than the barely-worth-flying T2 fit. -----------
Psiri	Posted - 2009.03.13 09:55:00 - [33] Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 09:56:31 Originally by: Ambrosious Martin Merin I still think you are an absolute RE-TARD! A thorax will spend more time trying to MWD into range than it will applying damage. Oh and just to confirm, the pilots name is Gauss Belloid he used to fly with ALTZ( thats the corp ticker) and he killed numerous vagas with ruppie. You can ask RA, Stain Empire, -A-, Xenobytes... they have all receivd killmails in this fashion. Sorry for butting in, whilst Merin can have a stick up his ass and be an absolute ** about some things he's nevertheless absolutely right. There is no way a T1 cruiser should be able to take out a HAC, naturally there are always people that make misstakes but I find HAC pilots to represent a very small portion of those people. A newbie can't afford to blow up his HAC any number of times, and he will. The Thorax can indeed get lucky and get close enough, with ECM drones you can at least hope to disengage if the ** hits the fan and you're tackled outside the range of your guns.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.03.13 10:26:00 - [34] HAC pilots are not better pilots, they just trained longer or more focussed, generally people are stupid and flying a HAC doesn't somehow excuse one from that. Having said that it really depends on the HAC and it's intended strategy but still, a 1600 plate thorax with heavy electrons and ECM drones is about as nasty as T1 cruisers get. Self-proclaimed idiot
Psiri	Posted - 2009.03.13 10:38:00 - [35] Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 10:38:06 Originally by: Tzar'rim HAC pilots are not better pilots, they just trained longer or more focussed, generally people are stupid and flying a HAC doesn't somehow excuse one from that. Having said that it really depends on the HAC and it's intended strategy but still, a 1600 plate thorax with heavy electrons and ECM drones is about as nasty as T1 cruisers get. Just my mere observation, mind you. A properly fitted HAC goes well over 100mil loss per pop, unless you're rich (in which case you're a senior player or got cash to blow on GTC's) that's not something you can throw away easily, it's in essence darwinsism. In addition to this it also takes a hefty investment of SP and is a shiptype geared more towards PvP than anything else. Take a look at various killboards and I think you'll find a higher frequency of failfit battleships and battlecruisers than HAC's.
loldongs III loldongs industries	Posted - 2009.03.13 10:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Psiri Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 10:38:06 Originally by: Tzar'rim HAC pilots are not better pilots, they just trained longer or more focussed, generally people are stupid and flying a HAC doesn't somehow excuse one from that. Having said that it really depends on the HAC and it's intended strategy but still, a 1600 plate thorax with heavy electrons and ECM drones is about as nasty as T1 cruisers get. Just my mere observation, mind you. A properly fitted HAC goes well over 100mil loss per pop, unless you're rich (in which case you're a senior player or got cash to blow on GTC's) that's not something you can throw away easily, it's in essence darwinsism. In addition to this it also takes a hefty investment of SP and is a shiptype geared more towards PvP than anything else. Take a look at various killboards and I think you'll find a higher frequency of failfit battleships and battlecruisers than HAC's. You would be surprised at how bad most hac pilots are.
Dracoknight	Posted - 2009.03.13 10:48:00 - [37] But then again, you dont really use a T1 cruiser VS a HAC, but you still have a lot of targets to kill with it, people seems to forget that you MUST avoid fights you cant win here... If you meet a HAC with your cruiser... RUN! There is no "Can kill everything ship" in EVE, there is a rock, paper scissors system on every fitting out there. My favorite in this discussion so far is the Thorax.. Rawr!
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.03.13 10:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Psiri Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 10:38:06 Originally by: Tzar'rim HAC pilots are not better pilots, they just trained longer or more focussed, generally people are stupid and flying a HAC doesn't somehow excuse one from that. Having said that it really depends on the HAC and it's intended strategy but still, a 1600 plate thorax with heavy electrons and ECM drones is about as nasty as T1 cruisers get. Just my mere observation, mind you. A properly fitted HAC goes well over 100mil loss per pop, unless you're rich (in which case you're a senior player or got cash to blow on GTC's) that's not something you can throw away easily, it's in essence darwinsism. In addition to this it also takes a hefty investment of SP and is a shiptype geared more towards PvP than anything else. Take a look at various killboards and I think you'll find a higher frequency of failfit battleships and battlecruisers than HAC's. But that doesn't neccesarily make them a better pilot. BC's and BS's are more failfit because of 3 reasons; 1) the player is new 2) BC's and BS's allow for a number of fittings/uses/strategies 3) player is stupid. HAC players aren't new and most hacs are very much molded/focussed towards a certain strategy so reason 1&2 can be discarded, but #3 still counts. Besides; BC>HAC unless that HAC has a strategy that counters 'normal' ships. Zealot can be killed by any decent frigate, same thing for an Eagle. Self-proclaimed idiot
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.03.13 11:23:00 - [39] I love my Vexor. Great buffer tank, decent speed, ACs & EMP for sexy goodness, and of course the drones... Oh yes, my pretty pretty little drones. A truly fantastic little ship. Much prefer it over the Thorax's range and tracking issues. Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.03.13 11:39:00 - [40] Solo/duo: the traditional combat cruisers, Vexor, Thorax, Rupture, Arbitrator. Gang support: cruiser that perform specific roles that other ships cannot: Blackbird, Caracal, Arbitrator.
Elurilmar	Posted - 2009.03.13 11:47:00 - [41] Edited by: Elurilmar on 13/03/2009 11:47:24 Originally by: Merin Ryskin The only way a T1 cruiser is going to win against a HAC, short of the HAC pilot screwing up impressively, is to jam it with ECM drones. And guess what that means: 50m3 drone bay, minimum, and the Thorax is the only T1 cruiser that can carry a full set of ECM drones and still have enough dps from guns to actually kill the HAC once it's jammed. Obviously range is a problem, that's why the Thorax is really just the least-bad option, not a good one. It's borderline suicidal no matter how you look at it, but at least the Thorax might get lucky. Sorry to burst your ambitious bubble but vagabonds do pretty bad against arbitrators.
Khanoonian Singh Ramshackle Industrial Unity Thru Aggression.	Posted - 2009.03.13 12:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Tara Wilde LOL sweetie, I think you are the idiot. An Omen will win against a Rupture every time. I have mined a lot in belts in low security systems (0.5 or 0.6), and I have not been attacked by people pirates ever. Including your fabled Ruptures. You realize why this is? I will let you figure it out I think I know why...could it be because .5 and .6 arent low security? so there was no way to engage barring can flipping or suigank? could that be it did I win? for for cruisers I dont know about the omen but the Rupture is mean and a Blackbird makes for nice support.
NurseBob	Posted - 2009.03.13 13:33:00 - [43] wow i have to agree with alot of these points you guys are making, but as a Deimos/Phobos pilot i have to go with the Thorax for its right in ya face attitude web point and a nice big fat plate. I also think this should be turned into a poll of some kind, and change it to most favored voted cruiser, that might give Smokeyblood the answer he is looking for. Awesome question btw Smokey :)
Anira Minmatar Chrysohelios	Posted - 2009.03.13 13:36:00 - [44] Voting Rupture
Garat Mant Moons of Pluto Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2009.03.13 13:58:00 - [45] Minmatar pilot reporting in. Rupture: gank + buffer + utility highs. Stabber: hit and run or blackbird killer (with eccm fitted) Bellicose: fffffffuuuuuu. I really want to love the bellicose. I do. Split weapons without the tank or grid to use utility highs = meh. Needs 2 extra lows :) -- CEO, Moons Of Pluto industrial corporation. Recruiting casual, mature players!
ry ry	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:15:00 - [46] Edited by: ry ry on 13/03/2009 14:15:47 Originally by: Aurora IV Depends on what you want. Sniper: Rupture Raw DPS: Thorax / Vexor / Rupture Utility: Blackbird Solo: Vexor / Rupture This is how they rank IMO. Rupture is a beast, and so is the Vexor /w T2 drones. I use the Rupture in just about every situation. Load up the barrage and you have like 15km falloff, or load up the hail and do like 600+ dps. As mentioned above if you can afford upgrading to a battlecruiser, then do so. The Hurricane, Harbinger, and Mymidon are far better in nearly every situation. Outside of the Blackbird, battlecruisers are where its at. As for the Stabber, it works nice as a solo boat since you should be able to stay at range, but your dps is horrid. Better off just busing in there with a Rupture and hoping for the best. sniping rupture is a total failboat. either you don't fly them or you're getting it mixed up with the muninn. plated AC ruptures on the other hand are hardcore.
TimMc Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:16:00 - [47] I wub thorax, but everyone seems to love rupture and stabber.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:18:00 - [48] SHC assures me stabb0rz are now rubbish, but i'm fairly certain they're still brill. :)
Psiri	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 14:25:05 Originally by: Tzar'rim But that doesn't neccesarily make them a better pilot. BC's and BS's are more failfit because of 3 reasons; 1) the player is new 2) BC's and BS's allow for a number of fittings/uses/strategies 3) player is stupid. HAC players aren't new and most hacs are very much molded/focussed towards a certain strategy so reason 1&2 can be discarded, but #3 still counts. Besides; BC>HAC unless that HAC has a strategy that counters 'normal' ships. Zealot can be killed by any decent frigate, same thing for an Eagle. Like you say, BC and BS's are more commonly displayed on lossmails with poor fits because they are popular ships with new players who are lacking in experience. A person who cannot fit his ship properly can't fly it well either because he doesn't understand the game mechanics or the environment that he's flying in. I fail to see however what this has to do with my observation on HAC pilots being better on average? As for BC vs HAC I fail to see how isk aside a BC is an any more effective killing machine? I'd take a Vagabond or Ishtar any day of the week over a Cane or Drake, oh and if you get tackled in your Zealot/Eagle by a frigate you deserve to die. Quote: Sorry to burst your ambitious bubble but vagabonds do pretty bad against arbitrators. And what exactly keeps the Vagabond from staying on the field if he feels that he can't nail the arbitrator in time?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Psiri Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 14:25:05 Originally by: Tzar'rim But that doesn't neccesarily make them a better pilot. BC's and BS's are more failfit because of 3 reasons; 1) the player is new 2) BC's and BS's allow for a number of fittings/uses/strategies 3) player is stupid. HAC players aren't new and most hacs are very much molded/focussed towards a certain strategy so reason 1&2 can be discarded, but #3 still counts. Besides; BC>HAC unless that HAC has a strategy that counters 'normal' ships. Zealot can be killed by any decent frigate, same thing for an Eagle. Like you say, BC and BS's are more commonly displayed on lossmails with poor fits because they are popular ships with new players who are lacking in experience. A person who cannot fit his ship properly can't fly it well either because he doesn't understand the game mechanics or the environment that he's flying in. I fail to see however what this has to do with my observation on HAC pilots being better on average? As for BC vs HAC I fail to see how isk aside a BC is an any more effective killing machine? I'd take a Vagabond or Ishtar any day of the week over a Cane or Drake, oh and if you get tackled in your Zealot/Eagle by a frigate you deserve to die. Quote: Sorry to burst your ambitious bubble but vagabonds do pretty bad against arbitrators. And what exactly keeps the Vagabond from staying on the field if he feels that he can't nail the arbitrator in time? neuts, scram, web, tracking disruptors, drones and a fat plate mean the vaga will be in a heap of trouble when it comes in to attack.
UMEE Tactical Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.13 15:05:00 - [51] it's obvious to me that you havent fought a good vaga pilot. he'll stay outside of scram/web range while picking off your drones.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.13 15:37:00 - [52] Originally by: loldongs III Originally by: Psiri Edited by: Psiri on 13/03/2009 10:38:06 Originally by: Tzar'rim HAC pilots are not better pilots, they just trained longer or more focussed, generally people are stupid and flying a HAC doesn't somehow excuse one from that. Having said that it really depends on the HAC and it's intended strategy but still, a 1600 plate thorax with heavy electrons and ECM drones is about as nasty as T1 cruisers get. Just my mere observation, mind you. A properly fitted HAC goes well over 100mil loss per pop, unless you're rich (in which case you're a senior player or got cash to blow on GTC's) that's not something you can throw away easily, it's in essence darwinsism. In addition to this it also takes a hefty investment of SP and is a shiptype geared more towards PvP than anything else. Take a look at various killboards and I think you'll find a higher frequency of failfit battleships and battlecruisers than HAC's. You would be surprised at how bad most hac pilots are. And the irony is, is that they think because they fly a leet ship that it somehow makes them a better pilot! Gotta love Eve. -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin
lljkDeathscythe Carebear Poachers plc SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.13 15:46:00 - [53] Originally by: Ambrosious Martin Originally by: Ig Neus A Thorax with 1600mm Plate, a full set of Medium Electrons II and 5 medium ECM Drones is the king of solo. The effect of 5 tech 2 medium ECMs on a normal Tech 1 Cruiser means that you will not even need your tank in most cases. However, since solo Cruiser PvP is a relatively rare thing and it is hard to name a Cruiser best overall, here is a small list (order is just my preference) 1) Vexor (this is my personal favorite for gangs, provided you can use Ogres II) 2) Thorax (best solo with ECM Drones, great Tank + Damage for gang with HH II) 3) Rupture (If your skills do not let you fly a Thorax this is the closest thing, but smaller Drone Bay and less damage at close range) 4) Arbitrator (Amarr's version of Vexor, cannot use Heavy Drones but still a nice ship) 5) Blackbird (Poor or young man's Falcon) Post with your main, so we know what idiot is behind the picture. You cant fit a thorax with 1600plate and MED blasters without using a fitting mod, and if your putting a ACR on a T1 cruiser your really dumb. If your sacrificing the lowslot for it your stupid but understood. WTB T2 ECM drones!!! Last I checked, which was just before new expansion, there was no T2 ewar drones. Now lets get all technical, your thorax is slower than the rupture. With a scram and web, youll still not be able to keep up. And Oh yeah you'll cap out real fast! The rupture easily outpaces the thorax, puts down more DPS at better range. And has 2 utility highs for all those good things to reek havoc on your opposition, such as NOS and NUETS, smartbombs, missles, tractor and salvager, what ever you feel nessacary. For the one who says that theres no bast cruiser just best pilots, your right! Thats why all the best pilots say the Rupture is just pure evil in the cruiser world. How many other T1 cruisers have a chance to beat a T2 HAC? I believe this man is correct.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.03.13 16:14:00 - [54] He probably meant tier 2, instead of T2. 5 EC-600 drones will really mess up any normal cruiser unless he's lucky and can take out those drones quickly. Self-proclaimed idiot
Kingwood Amarr Defile.	Posted - 2009.03.13 16:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Tzar'rim He probably meant tier 2, instead of T2. 5 EC-600 drones will really mess up any normal cruiser unless he's lucky and can take out those drones quickly. EC-300 drones are enough. Was fighting a Rupture in a Pilgrim with a mate in a Vexor. Rupture made the Vexor warp out, then got a jam in on my Pilgrim and warped out in structure. Awesome ship, tbqh. Also: Nerf ECM.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2009.03.13 17:19:00 - [56] Well, you can kill a HAC with a cruiser with relative easy ... the thing is you have to know which HAC in advance and fit pretty much specifically against it ... but your regular day to day pvp fit is most likely to get squished outta space ...
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.03.13 17:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Drek Grapper And the irony is, is that they think because they fly a leet ship that it somehow makes them a better pilot! Gotta love Eve. I can tell you right now, with honesty in my words, I suck at PvP. I have two combat characters that, between em, can fly all races HACs, Command Ships, Recons and all the small stuff. Even after almost 3 years of Eve I get EXCITED when people start shooting at me in game. Thank god I have a little voice in my ear yelling "SHOOT THE GOD DAMNED PRIMARY YOU DUMB **!" along with "Ask for the ransom BEFORE killing the mission runner next time. OK? Friggen idiot". Thank god for vent. *********************************************** I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.03.13 18:23:00 - [58] Originally by: UMEE it's obvious to me that you havent fought a good vaga pilot. he'll stay outside of scram/web range while picking off your drones. You clearly havent met a good arbi pilot then.
heslookinatu	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:20:00 - [59] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: UMEE it's obvious to me that you havent fought a good vaga pilot. he'll stay outside of scram/web range while picking off your drones. You clearly havent met a good arbi pilot then. A smart vaga pilot will always rock a smart arbi pilot.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.13 20:49:00 - [60] The Vaga greatly outdamages the Arbi, while it fields an roughly comparable EHP to a 1600mm plated cruiser...it's not like It can either move to point blank and chop him, or dominate range and diminish tracking issues...a smart vaga pilot would never just orbit an arbi, at least not for long... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!

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