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Julia Steaz
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Posted - 2009.03.17 21:38:00 -
[61]
It's hard to believe that Eve would be so graphic intensive. I just acquired Call of Duty 4 and the graphics are unbelievable. When I logged into Eve I was disappointed at the lack of detail and realism.
Who figured it would take so much power to render a black screen with a bunch of white dots for stars.
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Elysarian
Minmatar
dudetruck corp
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Posted - 2009.03.17 21:48:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Julia Steaz
It's hard to believe that Eve would be so graphic intensive. I just acquired Call of Duty 4 and the graphics are unbelievable. When I logged into Eve I was disappointed at the lack of detail and realism.
Who figured it would take so much power to render a black screen with a bunch of white dots for stars.
That's actually part of the problem, or so it seems, CoD and other FPS games (other game genre's too) do a lot of processing on your CPU which generate interrupts, slowing down the amount of data sent to the GPU.
Eve does not have CPU overheads in-client so sends a crapton of data to the GPU and, in many cases, overloads it (or at least causes overheating in those cards that either have poor cooling, poor system cooling or crap temperature probes.
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It smells of spoon!
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David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.17 22:09:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Hiro Apropos
Anatal Klep
That was the most succinct posts on Video Card usage I have ever read, and I thank you for increasing my knowledge of the hardware. Kudos.
yer he does tend to troll on about it alot
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.17 22:10:00 -
[64]
Edited by: David Grogan on 17/03/2009 22:11:18
7 hrs since chipset driver update and still no crash running 2 ac from 1 pc both at medium shader - high textures
(15 mins per crash pre driver update running 1 ac at low shader low textures)
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.17 22:14:00 -
[65]
Edited by: David Grogan on 17/03/2009 22:15:02
nvidia based pc lockups is due to 2 things in my opinion
1. physX doesnt work right --- bad driver
2. chipset drivers older than 16 march 2009 also has issues with eve
solution for me and i hope many of ye is disable physX and
update the mobo chipset drivers to the new ones nvidia released yesterday march 16th 2009... no more heating issues no more crashes
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.17 23:29:00 -
[66]
coming up on 8hrs non stop without a crash
defo chipset drivers is the problem --- get nvidia's newest "nforce chipset drivers" if u get lockups
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Danivon
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Posted - 2009.03.17 23:31:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Danivon on 17/03/2009 23:32:14
Eve killed an 8800GTS here. I know EXACTLY why it killed the card as well. Its a combination of interval immediate and anti-aliasing in-station. Turn either one off and listen to the fan spin slower. I replaced the 8800GTS with a Radeon 4870 and the fan runs at full speed in station with interval immediate and AA on - interval one and AA turned off and you can barely hear the fan. If you look at some of the station environments they are largely composed of lots and lots of edges (minnie ones especially) and ALL of those edges are quite likely being anti-aliased by your card.
Of course the station (and most of the rest of Eve) looks rubbish without AA on but that's a different story. HDR doesn't compensate and personally I'd rather have AA than shiny reflections and really bright lighting.
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David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.17 23:35:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Danivon
Edited by: Danivon on 17/03/2009 23:32:14
Eve killed an 8800GTS here. I know EXACTLY why it killed the card as well. Its a combination of interval immediate and anti-aliasing in-station. Turn either one off and listen to the fan spin slower. I replaced the 8800GTS with a Radeon 4870 and the fan runs at full speed in station with interval immediate and AA on - interval one and AA turned off and you can barely hear the fan. If you look at some of the station environments they are largely composed of lots and lots of edges (minnie ones especially) and ALL of those edges are quite likely being anti-aliased by your card.
Of course the station (and most of the rest of Eve) looks rubbish without AA on but that's a different story. HDR doesn't compensate and personally I'd rather have AA than shiny reflections and really bright lighting.
to any ccp programmer reading this.............have the client auto choose interval one by default.............let player decide if the wanna risk a higher setting
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.18 00:39:00 -
[69]
9hrs running with no crash
defo new drivers fixed it
i now can run 3 ac at medium shader high texture from 1 pc
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
joodner
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Posted - 2009.03.18 01:43:00 -
[70]
For all thoses that are crashing or worried about overheating ...
Have you run a system stress test and monitored all temps ?
e.g run Prime on all Cores and a GPU Benchmark for 2-3 hours while watching all system temps ?
Run MEMTEST ?
Now if your getting Blue screens, follow up on the errors or post the exact error code here.
I will bet that 95%+ of all Blue screens will be hardware faults or crap drivers loaded somewhere (not the main drivers norm, but a crappy chipset / printer/scanner etc that was installed ages ago and fogotten about).
If your really worried about killing any compnent in your PC , then get pro active about it, start monitoring all temps and STRESS TEST THE SYSTEM outside of EVE. Double check all fans in the case are working / cleaned of dust and gunk. Are all the fans operating the correct way ? (fronts should pull in clean air from outside. Back and top fans should be pushing hot air from inside out).
Without more information, its hard to track down and resolve any issue.
So if you crash/lockup/bluescreen...
What make / model /driver version GPU ?
What Make / Model CPU ?
What is GPU Temp IDLE ?
What is CPU Temp IDLE ?
What was Max GPU Temp in EVE before Crash ?
What was Max CPU Temp in EVE before Crash ?
What was MAX GPU Temp when Stress Testing ?
What was MAX CPU Temp when Stress Testing ?
If bluescreen, what is the error code ?
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David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.18 03:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: joodner
For all thoses that are crashing or worried about overheating ...
Have you run a system stress test and monitored all temps ?
e.g run Prime on all Cores and a GPU Benchmark for 2-3 hours while watching all system temps ?
Run MEMTEST ?
Now if your getting Blue screens, follow up on the errors or post the exact error code here.
I will bet that 95%+ of all Blue screens will be hardware faults or crap drivers loaded somewhere (not the main drivers norm, but a crappy chipset / printer/scanner etc that was installed ages ago and fogotten about).
If your really worried about killing any compnent in your PC , then get pro active about it, start monitoring all temps and STRESS TEST THE SYSTEM outside of EVE. Double check all fans in the case are working / cleaned of dust and gunk. Are all the fans operating the correct way ? (fronts should pull in clean air from outside. Back and top fans should be pushing hot air from inside out).
Without more information, its hard to track down and resolve any issue.
So if you crash/lockup/bluescreen...
What make / model /driver version GPU ?
What Make / Model CPU ?
What is GPU Temp IDLE ?
What is CPU Temp IDLE ?
What was Max GPU Temp in EVE before Crash ?
What was Max CPU Temp in EVE before Crash ?
What was MAX GPU Temp when Stress Testing ?
What was MAX CPU Temp when Stress Testing ?
If bluescreen, what is the error code ?
sadly i never got bluescreens i just got freeze n sound loop until reboot.......... the new nvidia chipset and i stress chipset not graphics card, drivers work for me
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Apollo Gabriel
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Posted - 2009.03.18 06:15:00 -
[72]
sadly my laptop video card fried. I have never overclocked it that I know of, not do I know about my video settings since I can't run eve now or anything else.
I was so excited that I passed the shader 2 test.
How can I make sure my system doesn't fry?
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Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.18 06:36:00 -
[73]
Originally by: David Grogan
almost 5hrs now still running with 2 ac on medium shader high texture no crashes since new nvidia chipset (nforce 750a sli driver package) released yesterday march 16th 2009.
they release new chipset drivers for many of the 7 series 8 series and 9 series chipsets
if u get lockups i suggest you try this
thanks for the headsup mate, cant wait to try it when I finish work 
Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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Avaleric
Amarr
SC Special Circumstances
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Posted - 2009.03.18 08:15:00 -
[74]
The previous large update used to cause a complete meltdown when I ran EVE and another 3D application, be that another EVE or some other game. Complete stystem crash. What I did, was to send log and diagnostics files to ATI, using the analyzers they aked me to, and a couple of weeks later, a new driver came out (was Catalyst 8.2) that fixed everything.
Since EVE now is just about the only modern game that (again) can't handle anti-aliasing, I suspect the same action is required. CCP obviously use some unstandard coding or something, that the GPU people had to adapt to. Hopefully it will pan out nicely eventually, like it did the last time around.
I am contacting ATI myself today, by the way...
- Ignorance is bliss... |
Apollo Gabriel
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Posted - 2009.03.18 15:22:00 -
[75]
I wish graphics drivers would help, my card is dead, using software to render now, at least I was able to get my work off the machine.
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:03:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Elysarian
1. TTL = 5v applied to switch "on" a transistor, CMOS = 0v applied to switch "on".
LOL. Actually TTL inputs float high so one does not need to apply any voltage to get logic 1 and 0v is circuit ground so one is not applying any voltage there either.
I was talking about the current needed to drive a logic state. That current travels between transistors and it is the main source of heat because the connecting lands are much longer than the path between the power rails through the transistor itself. No current flows when the transistor is in the default logic state for the logic family. IOW, my perspective for "on" was the circuit's, not the transistor's.
Quote:
2. Modern devices (CPU and GPU) have embedded temperature probes that are supposed to either shut them down or lower the clock speed if thermal runaway is a possibility.
You explanation of thermal runaway is just one of the ways a card can suffer heat damage.
Those "probes" you are talking about are on the power rails so they only respond to overall temperature and that with substantial delay. When the OS shuts down or the card resets, it is usually responding to that overtemperature. If there are local hot spots they may not trigger a shutdown/reset at all and, even if they do, the card may be damaged before they trigger.
[Trying to predict hot spots for placing probes locally is an exercise in futility; at best an educated guess. The gate density will be close to uniform so local hot spots will depend on what gates are likely to be on most often during operation. That, in turn, depends significantly on what is being displayed.]
Also note that repeated thermal shutdowns can result in damage in the long term anyway because the card is being highly stressed each time and damage can be cummulative. (Obviously a card reset for overtemperature is an emergency, last-resort step to avoid immediate damage.) FYI, one reason that ICs are only sample tested for load testing is so the sampled ICs can be withdrawn from the lot prior to actual use. Statistically they will have shorter life than the rest of the ICs in the lot even though they passed the load test.
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:34:00 -
[77]
Originally by: David Grogan
Originally by: Hiro Apropos
Anatal Klep
That was the most succinct posts on Video Card usage I have ever read, and I thank you for increasing my knowledge of the hardware. Kudos.
yer he does tend to troll on about it alot
True. I have been described in other contexts as somemone who can describe any picture in a thousand words. Its an age thing.
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Othran
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:34:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Othran on 18/03/2009 19:37:18
Actually this isn't new by any means. If any of you in the UK remember the summer of 2003 we hit 35C in August and back then I had a Radeon 9800 card which despite having a 20" fan pointing at it (case off) got so hot that smd caps FELL OFF the back. The card kept working to my amazement.
I think that I see the problem with Eve and anti-aliasing. It is in fact that you'd have to redesign the environments COMPLETELY isn't it? It really doesn't have anything to do with HDR does it? Its simply that it would require a MASSIVE redesign of all the station environments - in and out - and you can't do it in a cost-effective way.
THAT is the reason that Eve "doesn't support anti-aliasing" and that is the reason that Eve looks (bar the stupid lighting that blinds you) like a 6 year old game.
I await a dev response detailing why that actually isn't the reason. I'll be willing to bet that this does not happen - not on an official basis anyway.
I'm just feeling very stupid that its taken me the best part of SIX YEARS to work this out.
Edit - and before we get the "can I haz ur stuff" posts - no you can't. I will be renewing for 6 months. It would just have been very nice had I worked this out before instead of listening to the muppets :(
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BBQ
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:36:00 -
[79]
I think alot of the failures could be due to the lovely nVidia fiasco that befell their laptop GPU's as a large percentage of the graphics chips are used on both laptop and desktop cards with a BIOS that reports them as different versions depending on the market.
Basically nVidia told the card and laptop makers that their chip would put out 50W of power and work at a specific themperature at maximum load and the card / laptop designers added a heatsink that ran the chip a small bit away from its maximum temp at that power output. nVidia then supplied the chips BUT they actually ran at 60W of power at full load rather than the 50W specified and they could not withstand the temperature they were rated for over extended time, this means the chips overheat due to the extra power which stresses the internal connections which were already weaker than originally planned and eventually something breaks, usually after a few months or a couple of years. The fix from people like Dell and HP was to turn the fans up higher to reduce the temperature of the chip when running to offset the extra heat produced and its now lower maximum rated temp. A similar thing happened with Intel a few years back when they tried to ramp up the very old P4 chips to 3.6GHz. The power output of the chip was on the maximum line for its rated power output and caused more than 1 system to throttle itself to protect the CPU from death (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/p4,919.html), in this case the design of the chip by Intel made sure that the CPU came to no damage as it did not overheat and stayed within its rated power.
It is not possible to overload a GPU or CPU as they have a maximum rated speed (MHZ), voltage and power output (Watts). These are tested and confirmed (sometimes wrongly, see above) and these design specs are then fed to the designers so they can design cooling systems to cater for this heat, some instructions can stress the silicone more than other, in this case CCP and DirectX seem to be using some that are pretty stressful but they will still fall within the maximum power output of the chip by design, the same as above is also done with CPU's. If the designers want to save a few pennies by using a slightly smaller heatsink and gambling on the end user not using their hardware to its limits then this can cause problems.
All modern GPU and CPU chips have the ability to lower their processor speed and voltage when the load on them is reduced, this lowers their heat output and enables them to run cooler when not needed and allows the fan to slow down and reduce its noise. When they are required to do a lot of work they will again ramp up to their design speeds and the power they put out will rise towards their maximum power output (unless overclocked, over voltaged or wrongly tested they cannot exceed their rated power output). If, for any reason, the design of the cooling is relying on the chip not running at 100% of its load all the time then eventualy the chip will overheat as it saturates the heatsink and cannot transfer this power / heat to the air quickly enough.
The short version is that all chips inside a PC should operate and be cooled within their maximum rated abilities, providing cooling that cannot cope with the maximum heat output of the chip is a false economy that will save a few bucks but in the long run can cause problems. The trouble is that people like HP, Dell etc try and reduce the airflow around things like graphics cards and CPU's to the lowest amount allowed to reduce noise and cost the upshot of which is that if you install a bigger graphics card or CPU the chances are you may need a bigger or faster intake or exhaust fan to shift the extra heat it produces out of the case. Trying to cool a hot graphics card with warm air that is stuck inside a case is not good and will cause overheating.
----
God gave us a brain, he also gave us a voice.
Shame some people have yet to connect them.
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Maevic
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Posted - 2009.03.18 21:14:00 -
[80]
Hmm anyone any ideas?? I dont have nVidia chipset in my laptop (I have that itegrated Intel GMA950 chipset). I tried to reinstall eve, still I have the same problem (computer will be shut down cause there is a possibility of damaging your stuff...)...
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Jephir
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Posted - 2009.03.18 21:42:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Jephir on 18/03/2009 21:42:37
EVE is not graphics intensive. That is not the problem.
What is causing these issues is that EVE does not cap framerates by default. Because of this, EVE will stress video cards beyond their limit because it forces the card to pump out hundreds of frames per second. Even the most demanding games (e.g. Crysis, etc.) will not kill video cards simply because the maximum framerate is capped (usually 30/60 fps). Running EVE on interval immediate (the default option) does not limit the maximum framerate, which can easily go into the hundreds and fry video card memory.
So, always run EVE on interval one. It should really be configured like this by default.
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Apollo Gabriel
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:04:00 -
[82]
Good to know if I get another working laptop
I have an ATI Radeon 600 and I dont' know about the interval settings, I will pay more attention to it. I was getting the highest frame rates I had ever gotten and was very excited.
The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long...
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Maevic
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:09:00 -
[83]
Hmm Ive made some 'research';]
I can run Eve all normally, I can fly from station to station, thats not a problem. I see BSOD when it comes to fight. I don know why. It happends at the moment of destroying enemy ship.
After that, error KERNEL_MODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED_M occurs (took from windows event log), and eve has some problems with ntdll.dll file (version 5.1.2600.5512).
Any ideas?
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Grez
Minmatar
Core Contingency
Ignition.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 02:44:00 -
[84]
All interval one does is turn vsync on. EVE cannot push your graphics card faster than it is rated without over clocking it - something which it is not doing (I left ATT open the entire session today, and not once did the numbers jump).
Forcing vsync on for everyone in EVE would **** the majority off - it is not an issue with vsync, it is an issue with some peoples cards being fault and/or their cards not being cooled properly. It could also just be down to driver issues.
Those with an NVidia card:
Update your drivers
Disable PhysX
Disable SLI
You can set a custom profile for EVE so that on start-up it will do this for you.
Those with Intel chips - you are most probably having issues with overheating - GMA's are not the speediest of things, and 99% of the time they don't even bother putting a fan over the GPU - just a naff heatsink. With crappy cooling, it's still possible to overheat these.
All you are doing by setting interval one, is enabling vertical sync. Read about V-SYNC here.
More specifically, see : "Computer games often allow vertical synchronization as an option, because it delays the image update until the vertical blanking interval. This can cause lowered frame rates due to latency (the period of the refresh rate at maximum), which might be undesirable in games that require fast response (e.g. first person shooters)."
Key word being delay - all it's doing is slowing down the output of your card. If vsync is off, all EVE is doing is requesting 100% of your graphics card - ANY modern game does this.
---
Have a rawr on me. |
RunForYourLives
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Posted - 2009.03.19 03:19:00 -
[85]
Hey everyone,
Every time I do something in EVE that involved loading (jump gate, undock, jump bridge, etc.) my computer crashes. I have uninstalled and reinstalled everything on my computer. Undates, new drives, everything. And it still does it. If im just sitting in space of docked it works just fine. This has only started with the new patch. Anyone know if they are still working out some bugs or is the new patch just F#@*ing my computer in the A$#.
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joodner
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Posted - 2009.03.19 03:25:00 -
[86]
Originally by: RunForYourLives
Hey everyone,
Every time I do something in EVE that involved loading (jump gate, undock, jump bridge, etc.) my computer crashes. I have uninstalled and reinstalled everything on my computer. Undates, new drives, everything. And it still does it. If im just sitting in space of docked it works just fine. This has only started with the new patch. Anyone know if they are still working out some bugs or is the new patch just F#@*ing my computer in the A$#.
How does it crash ? complete lockup or just eve crashes ?
What event log entries are associated with the crash ?
What are you system specs
What OS ?
Have you monitored the GPU/CPU temps just prior to a crash ?
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Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:58:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Grez
Those with an NVidia card:
Update your drivers
Disable PhysX
Disable SLI
You can set a custom profile for EVE so that on start-up it will do this for you.
.
Cool! I hope it works
I have filed a petition, though I guess it wont be answered for weeks, possibly over a month. How do I set up a profile, I take it is with nvidia software?
Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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Othran
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:24:00 -
[88]
BBQ - have you read Charlie's explanation of the bump problem?
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/378/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective
For those that are still in denial you may wish to ask yourselves why Apple would post the following on their website (note the bit where Apple basically say that NVidia are liars) :
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377
Oh and Grez - you're wrong. Totally.
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da Hawk
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Posted - 2009.03.19 18:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Haraldhardrade
Originally by: Maevic
Hi there
I have really similiar problem. After few seconds of play, game freezes, then the sound loops, and after few seconds I get nice blue screen saying that computer will be reboot cause there's risk of hardware damaging. (I dont know if it is important, but word 'serial.sys' was there among many strange digits;])
Im playing on samsung q35 laptop (with GMA950 integrated graphic chipset) on Win XP SP3.
I had almost no problems with that. I played Apocrypha and it was ok. Yesterday those problems occured. I dont know why now.
I think I had some cooling problem (there was a time I wasn't able to run computer after long operation, cause it was too hot). Temperature is about 90 degrees, but as I checked it is normal operating temperature.
Right now I dont think its a problem with cooling - I can start laptop, and when it's still cold, when I run eve, everything crashes...
My problem exactly, I get blue screen too. My PC is more than powerful enough to run EVE.
Intel Quad Core QX6850 3GHz @ 3.73GHz
Nvidia GeForce 8800GTX 768MB x2 in SLi
4096MB DDR2 800MHz RAM @ 1066MHz
2x 160GB 10,000RPM Raptor HDD's
1x 96GB 10,000RPM Raptor HDD
1x 500GB 7,200RPM Seagate HDD
SoundBlaster X-Fi XtremeMusic
PhysX Card 128MB PCI Edition
1000Watt Dell PSU
same happend to me, i have a Dell XPS 1330 Laptop with Nvidia 8400...
Was playing eve, got bluescreen (hardware damage ...) and now the card is fried :(
Dell said the will send a technican to repair it.
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:03:00 -
[90]
Originally by: BBQ
It is not possible to overload a GPU or CPU as they have a maximum rated speed (MHZ), voltage and power output (Watts).
Grrr. This urban legend keeps coming up again and again.
Output power is almost completely irrelevant. The output power is fully determined by what is directly connected to the output pins. Thus I could take the outputs of the board's last gates and connect them to a bank of SCRs that would pump out hundreds of amps at KVs. But the heat generated in the card itself would be unaffected. What counts is the power consumed by the card as it operates; that is what gets converted into heat. (That's also why the failsafe sensors are on the power rails, not the outputs.)
Nobody overvoltages inputs or power rails; that is a guaranteed disaster. Some computers overclock, but not very many.
The power consumed depends primarily on how many gates are being driven and for how long. That, in turn, depends on what the card is actually doing (i.e., how its inputs are being stimulated). And it will also depend on how the overdriven gates are distributed on the card (local hot spots).
That is generally not predictable for any complex digitial hardware, even with todays advanced simulators. So designers make an educated guess, add a safety factor, write a load spec for peak and sustained loads, and put some sensors on the power rails. Those educated guesses are usually pretty good so it is very difficult to overdrive a graphics card for sustained periods in normal applications. BUT IT CAN BE DONE, especially if the application software has a bug so that it is not making "normal" requests.
Quote:
All modern GPU and CPU chips have the ability to lower their processor speed and voltage when the load on them is reduced, this lowers their heat output and enables them to run cooler when not needed and allows the fan to slow down and reduce its noise.
True. But the primary purpose is to allow heat that was generated during peak load to dissipate quickly to the heat sink when the load is not as great.
Quote:
The short version is that all chips inside a PC should operate and be cooled within their maximum rated abilities, providing cooling that cannot cope with the maximum heat output of the chip is a false economy that will save a few bucks but in the long run can cause problems. The trouble is that people like HP, Dell etc try and reduce the airflow around things like graphics cards and CPU's to the lowest amount allowed to reduce noise and cost the upshot of which is that if you install a bigger graphics card or CPU the chances are you may need a bigger or faster intake or exhaust fan to shift the extra heat it produces out of the case. Trying to cool a hot graphics card with warm air that is stuck inside a case is not good and will cause overheating.
Note that outside of laptops, modern high-performance graphics cards usually provide their own heat sinks and fans. So the computer designers really can't be blamed for cooling problems any more.
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