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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:19:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kulmid Edited by: Kulmid on 19/03/2009 12:57:34
Originally by: Kolmogorow
Originally by: Antara Oblique I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971.
So the K162 theory is falsified! I heard the same (both ends of WH were NOT K162) from another person. But it seems to be very rare and raises the question even more what the "special" WH code K162 wants to tell us. I can't see a reason anymore at the moment why this K162 special code exists at all and why not every WH has "normal" codes on both ends.
While I understands what I am about to say sounds absolutely ridiculous. It sounds like when you jump through the other side becomes K162. But if its probed before someone jumps through, it is given a real name.
Basically my theory now is:
When a wormhole is created, it has 2 sides, linking two systems. On the grid where the wormholes are there is no actual wormhole, just placeholders. When you probe the wormhole and load the grid, it is spawned and assigned a name which corresponds to the system on the other side. If you jump through, and force the wormhole on the other side to be spawned by you jumping through, it is assigned K162. If you warp away without jumping through, and someone probes the wormhole in the other system. They will spawn that wormhole by loading the grid, and not jumping through. This wormhole will now be assigned a name corresponding to its destination system. If that second pilot now jumps through, because the wormhole on the other side has already been spawned, it will not be assigned the name K162, and keeps the name it has.
Sorry for the wall of text, I hope it makes sense.
Edit: Clarified a few words.
Yes, this could an explanation, especially why those WHs with other names than K162 on both sides are so rare (by far the most people will jump through when they find a WH). But whether it makes sense? I don't know. I'm starting to think that the discussion is only about technical implementation details (hidden in the dark of the dev brains) without any content-wise meaning.
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3Bird
Gallente Star Fox Corp.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:38:00 -
[62]
Ok my understand of W-space and wormholes is limited, iv found 4 totle and been in 2 of them, now i have no idea about class because i didnt look (didnt know to look but do now so thanks to the OP)
but from where im looking, no one will be able to crack wormholes and understand them without a much bigger data set, even if you find 4 wormholes a day it would still take over 250 day to get a data set worth anaylising, im not saying it cant be done, what im saying is why not work together on this. if every1 in this topic posted all the data for each wormhole they find and travel through, we would end up with a much bigger data set, i think your right about the classifactions of w-space but untill the K162 theory fits into place this theory on wormholes wont be accepted by the masses.
on the other hand if your happy with the data and findings you have already no worrys :P
every so often ill post up data on what ever wormholes i find, you can look and see if it fits in with your theory, and if it doesnt use the information to help adjust it.
rambal aside, its good info and alot of help to me and im sure many others who will read this. |
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
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Posted - 2009.03.19 15:17:00 -
[63]
Originally by: 3Bird on the other hand if your happy with the data and findings you have already no worrys :P
The data in the map with the wormhole class information doesn't come from observation, instead it comes directly from the EVE client's very own data files, so there is really no point in discussing it.
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Enkidu Uruksen
Wakizashi Renaissance
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Posted - 2009.03.19 23:53:00 -
[64]
There's an IRC bot somewhere that has more database-looking wormhole space information... I don't know where the bot is: a guy took my J1234567 name and read off the information about my wormhole to me.
The additional information has to do with "anomalies" about a wormhole-space system. Not the anomalies you scan, like Perimeter Hangars and so on, but different effects the wormhole system has on your ship: shield boosting, top speed, etc. Does anybody have that information in a usable form?
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Matterick Boon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.20 01:02:00 -
[65]
so if i find a wh in kspace and it's labelled k162 how am i supposed to figure out the tier? because if i find any other wormholes in that w-space and pass threw them the exits i just came out of are all gonna say k162 aren't they? unless someone else found it in k-space first... right? o_O |
Aniel Zaar
Gallente Light of Orion
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Posted - 2009.03.20 01:39:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Antara Oblique Well, I liked the K162 theory until tonight.
I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971.
I call your bs. Fraps or it didn't happen. I've gone through over 60 wormholes, and they all had K162 on one of the sides. *-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones. |
Kulmid
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.20 02:30:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Matterick Boon so if i find a wh in kspace and it's labelled k162 how am i supposed to figure out the tier? because if i find any other wormholes in that w-space and pass threw them the exits i just came out of are all gonna say k162 aren't they? unless someone else found it in k-space first... right?
Exactly. There is no way to find out definitively what class of wormhole you are in if you come in through a wormhole named K162. You would have to wait until someone probes it from the outside in, and then go through the wormhole and check the name on the other side.
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Anopheli
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.03.20 04:00:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Curiouser and curiouser. So it's possible to have NO exits? I wonder if there is a per day limit on WHs in a W space system. Or if its completely and utterly random. That might mean you would go extended periods without an exit.
The possibility of having no exits is an acknowledged bug, supposed to be fixed by the last patch applied to TQ. The dev's have unequivocally stated that a W-space system will -always- have a wormhole present in it. Now, this may lead to another W-space system, which does you no good at all if that's not what you're looking for. There is a difference between not finding one, and there not being one. GMs can apparently easily see if there's a wormhole, if there isn't, quite a few people have been moved.
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Does anyone know if the WHs in W space always lead to other systems in the same cluster (clusters being the groups of W systems shown on the map)? If so, it should be possible to map the clusters fairly easily by referring to the map and using some puzzle-solving skills (Games magazine anyone?). If not, OMG that would be incredibly complicated.
Finally, I have entered most wormholes from Minmatar space. So far, when I've exited from W space through some other wormhole into hisec space, its been Ammar and Ammatar Mandate. Is anyone finding a correlation between your race or system entry point and the exit WH? Or is it just complete coincidence?
Don't get too hung up on the map. How the systems are arranged in the map is by convenience. Basically, they grouped all the systems of similar difficulty together. It's like putting all the 1.0sec systems in one region, all the 0.9s in another and so on. The game engine requires that every system have a physical position, which is how things like ISCS Jumpplanner, and the map work. Since in W-space you cannot use jump drives, have no map, and there are no static connections between systems, this doesn't really matter.
There appear to be factors influencing where wormholes open, for example I know of one system that has consistently spawned a C247 wormhole to a secocnd system, which the majority of which have exits in some very narrow areas. On the other hand, An Anarcht, of Goonswarm, described a situation he encountered where a wormhole linked to the same system it was already in - like a wormhole in Jita linking to another spot in Jita. Obviously, there's some randomness involved, perhaps a great deal. Wether it is totally random is open to debate, as the system is absolutely enormous, large enough to accommodate a huge number of freak coincidences just by virtue of the sheer number of players, systems, and wormholes opening.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.03.20 04:01:00 -
[69]
Found X702 (Class 3?) in Croleur just a minute ago, presumably this means it's as yet unexplored?
(Incidentally I've left a bookmark to it in a can outside Croleur 3-1 station, if anyone wants it they're welcome to it)
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Cameron Freerunner
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Posted - 2009.03.20 05:47:00 -
[70]
Wow. Some good info since my last question. To the poster claiming to find a WH with no K162, let's see proof. I've never seen a WH without K162 one one side. Still it might just be really rare. Vulmid's theory sounds reasonable. The whole thing seems a little Schroedinger's Cat to me.
What's this IRC bot that was mentioned? Is it real?
Raltage has inadvertently reminded me that the OP still hasn't acknowledged the original map thread, so here it is. |
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NCP Bullet
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Posted - 2009.03.20 06:11:00 -
[71]
sounds like a personal problem
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Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.03.20 06:21:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 20/03/2009 06:21:54
Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load.
Lets for the moment assume that when a side of a WH is not scanned but only "found" by jumping through from the other side its named K162. Only when scanned and grid-loaded for the first time will it have a real name. To prove that were the case you could try this:
- put and leave a (alt)character in a w-system and keep scanning for new WHs. Make sure that when you find a new WH you don't go through it. You want somebody else to find the other side. - remember the WHs that are not K162 and connect to K-space - wait/dir scan until somebody else comes from any of these new WHs to your W-system - now go through the WH and see if the other side if called K162 or not
It will be interesting to see if above assumption is correct. If it is then it will be very rare for a WH to not have one side called K162 but it won't be impossible.
Just some food for thought.
Regards,
M.M.
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Aniel Zaar
Gallente Light of Orion
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Posted - 2009.03.20 06:54:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Miss Moonwych Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load
Interesting idea. I see one problem with it though. You might spend hours/days sitting on one end of a wormhole when someone may have already found it from your side and jumped through it, spawning K162...
Like I said before, no proof - it didn't happen. If it would happen to me, I would fraps it, screen shoot it, take a video/pictures with my camera, call people in my corp/current system to witness it/fraps it and come here to back it up.
If it did happen and the person didn't document it - tough luck. If you would have seen an alien for real, nobody would believe you too. *-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones. |
Zalmoxes
Haita de lupi Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2009.03.20 11:52:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Zalmoxes on 20/03/2009 11:52:53
Originally by: Aniel Zaar
Originally by: Miss Moonwych Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load
Interesting idea. I see one problem with it though. You might spend hours/days sitting on one end of a wormhole when someone may have already found it from your side and jumped through it, spawning K162...
Like I said before, no proof - it didn't happen. If it would happen to me, I would fraps it, screen shoot it, take a video/pictures with my camera, call people in my corp/current system to witness it/fraps it and come here to back it up.
If it did happen and the person didn't document it - tough luck. If you would have seen an alien for real, nobody would believe you too.
there is nothing wronk with M.M.'s ideea , if someone scaned it in K-space and jumped, in the wh-space it will be called k162 and you would see this
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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
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Posted - 2009.03.20 12:55:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Aniel Zaar Interesting idea. I see one problem with it though. You might spend hours/days sitting on one end of a wormhole when someone may have already found it from your side and jumped through it, spawning K162...
I think the important point of the test is to scan and find NEW wormholes if I understand the idea correctly. So you have to make sure that you scan a WH that wasn't there before (perhaps immediately after downtime) at a moment when noone else is in the W-system (who could have scanned it before and jumped through). But yes, some uncertainty remains: Someone could have been extremely quick (or lucky) and hidden to find the hole and jumped through.
Originally by: Zalmoxes there is nothing wronk with M.M.'s ideea , if someone scaned it in K-space and jumped, in the wh-space it will be called k162 and you would see this
So you really assume that the WH is suddenly renamed while you watch at it? Of course not impossible but the last possibility I would expect.
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Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2009.03.20 13:11:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Miss Moonwych Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 20/03/2009 06:21:54
Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load.
Lol.. These are actions that cuold making nodes go down and DB too failover. (It's not a real failover btw). I wonder if CCP have though of this, or will DB crash with duplicate IDs getting pushed in somewhere ?
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MarcusD
Maersk Incendia Tempestas
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Posted - 2009.03.20 13:31:00 -
[77]
Edited by: MarcusD on 20/03/2009 13:33:21 I feel safe saying that if you find a wormhole with K162 it has been scanned and used from the side you find K162 at.
Example,
Last night I found 3 wormholes, each wormhole had a name like X702 in k-space space, But once I jumped through into w-space it was named K162 and in all those system there where people in it already.
So I beleive that the K162 is the exit wormhole name.
I've found K162 first in k-space. So I think someone had already found the original wormhole in w-space and the K162 is the exit to the wormhole found in w-space. --
You can't guarantee that after down time it will be a new wormhole, I've had wormholes booked marked, waited until down time logged back on and went to my bookmark and the wormhole was still there with the same name.
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Lijhal
FrEE d00M Fighters
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Posted - 2009.03.20 13:36:00 -
[78]
K162 - This wormhole is always the destination of another wormhole type
sad ccp has given us the data bump ... now we can see the entire stats of each wormhole out there ... making "discovery" pointless ...
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MarcusD
Maersk Incendia Tempestas
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Posted - 2009.03.20 13:38:00 -
[79]
Where is this data dump?
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Aniel Zaar
Gallente Light of Orion
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Posted - 2009.03.21 00:36:00 -
[80]
Originally by: MarcusD Where is this data dump?
*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones. |
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Anopheli
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.03.21 04:12:00 -
[81]
http://www.eveonline.com/community/toolkit.asp Resources for the data dump. http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/data/Apocrypha_1.0.0.84609_db.zip And the DB dump for the current version of Apocrypha on TQ. Because CCP hasn't updated the page. Bear in mind it's not exactly easy to work with.
Basically this confusion stems from how the server addresses the wormhole in the game world. K162 is the name of link in the opposite direction of a wormhole with another name. Basically, in the system that originally spawned a wormhole, like X702, you have an object named "Wormhole X702" At the other end, you have a wormhole named K162. Both objects are placed when the wormhole link is generated and tied together. No scanning is necessary to make the K162 exist - you are perfectly capable of scanning either end of the wormhole out all by your little lonesome self, without anyone else being there or involved.
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Syriana Luna
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:17:00 -
[82]
could the confusion be that the wormhole 'gate' has a different name for each side?
Visual example with random name chosen except for K162
(Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162 (Known Space)
I concur that any K162 is the exit to a wormhole, adding that K162 is the named side of the exit gate leading to known space. This might have been a general knowledge thing but I felt compelled to put it on paper so to speak.
*few minutes later: I know I had a point in there somewhere..but its 5:16 am and I lost the train of thought lol. |
Kulmid
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:45:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Syriana Luna could the confusion be that the wormhole 'gate' has a different name for each side?
Visual example with random name chosen except for K162
(Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162 (Known Space)
I concur that any K162 is the exit to a wormhole, adding that K162 is the named side of the exit gate leading to known space. This might have been a general knowledge thing but I felt compelled to put it on paper so to speak.
*few minutes later: I know I had a point in there somewhere..but its 5:16 am and I lost the train of thought lol.
K162 is will also be on the opposite side of a wormhole you find that goes w-space to w-space.
_________________
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Syriana Luna
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:53:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Kulmid
K162 is will also be on the opposite side of a wormhole you find that goes w-space to w-space.
so you are saying that:
(Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162>>-----Wspace----<<M609()K162(Known Space)
is possible? |
VB Sarge
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:05:00 -
[85]
You're misunderstanding a little bit. K162 is going to be the opposite side of a discovered wormhole. K162 can be on either side, either the W space or K space side of the wormhole, that part is irrelevant. K162 will always exist on one side of a wormhole, depending entirely on which side was probed out, either the W space side (in which case K162 appears in K space) or the K space side (in which case K162 appears in W space.
So to be more accurate, an example would look more like this: (K space) H121<->K162 (W space) A641<->K162 (K space)
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Kulmid
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.21 12:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Syriana Luna
so you are saying that:
(Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162>>-----Wspace----<<M609()K162(Known Space)
is possible?
Yes, except the Z971 would be K162. I have also witnessed a situation exactly like the one you have modeled, besides the flaw I previously pointed out.
_________________
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Flax Volcanus
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.03.21 14:43:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:44:09 Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:43:43 As far as there always being an exit, that seems to be relative. My group has worked our way into a dangerous system whose exits to easier systems (including k-space) have been down for a couple days. The only wormhole our uber-prober was able to find was one that leads into deadly space. Going into the deadly system, the only wormhole out was the one through which we'd come. (Unfortunately, I didn't note the names and I'm not online atm.)
So, although there is a way out of each of the two w-systems, together they comprise a closed loop.
No real point here except that I am ****ed to be wasting a few days of valuable playtime probing out the same, already-run grav and ladar sites, over and over and over... |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.21 18:14:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Flax Volcanus Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:44:09 Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:43:43 As far as there always being an exit, that seems to be relative. My group has worked our way into a dangerous system whose exits to easier systems (including k-space) have been down for a couple days. The only wormhole our uber-prober was able to find was one that leads into deadly space. Going into the deadly system, the only wormhole out was the one through which we'd come. (Unfortunately, I didn't note the names and I'm not online atm.)
So, although there is a way out of each of the two w-systems, together they comprise a closed loop.
No real point here except that I am ****ed to be wasting a few days of valuable playtime probing out the same, already-run grav and ladar sites, over and over and over...
So spend your time collapsing the gate instead of probing useless sites.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
S3dINSTBE
EXPLORATIS Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.22 01:15:00 -
[89]
Originally by: VB Sarge and a LOT of self research (on behalf of myself and my alliance) and hours of discussions, I'm pretty sure we have deciphered this map in a very easy to read manner.
I call shenanigans on this comment. __
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VB Sarge
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 08:10:00 -
[90]
While I appreciate the bump, can you please take your trolling elsewhere?
I would like to thank the contributors to this thread so far, and hope that there's some more good discussions in the future.
The fact that the only debate has been on the topic of K162, I think that means we pretty much got it right when we went public with our theory. On the topic of K162, it's interesting how there seems to be 2 main camps in the discussion "how K162 is actually created" but I'm happy that we have reached a consensus on the more important "what" it is and how it functions as a cartography tool.
-VB Sarge
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