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Wormhole Map: Deciphered

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VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 05:23:00 - [1] Using this map: Wormhole Classification Map and a LOT of self research (on behalf of myself and my alliance) and hours of discussions, I'm pretty sure we have deciphered this map in a very easy to read manner. I highly suggest having the Wormhole Classification Map open while reading this. As a warning, sometimes I talk in a roundabout manner, so apologies if that happens. First off, when you right click on a wormhole on the k space side of things, it'll tell you "this leads to unknown space" (class 1, 2, 3) "this leads to dangerous unknown space" (class 4, 5) or "this leads to deadly unknown space" (class 6) Now, we start to utilize the map more(link above) Class 1 is the easiest, and Class 6 is the hardest. It also seems, that reading from left to right, it goes from easiest to hardest (basically an "A" wormhole will be easier than a "Z" wormhole in the same class) From here, you can see the general difficulty of a W space before even entering it, by comparing the number, "W237" for example, with the table given. While it is difficult at this level to measure "difficulty" in a figurative sense, it still gives us an idea. However, there is a bit of a wildcard wormhole, and that is "K162" and from seeing this appear all over the place (0.0, lowsec, highsec) all with varying difficulty of rats, at first frustrated me, until I picked up a pattern. K162 wormholes seem to adopt a sort of baseline principle, as in, a "K162" W space will be harder in a .4 system than a "K162" W space in a .9 system. Now, we pretty much know the difficulty of any wormhole we are about to enter, more or less. Onto the next part, Class 7, 8, 9. This is by chance incredibly easier. Class 7, 8, 9 wormholes are wormholes that lead OUT of W space and into K space. Class 7 leads to highsec Class 8 leads to lowsec Class 9 leads to 0.0 I highly encourage the entire Eve community to get on board with this development. In the search for truth, I hope that more people can come forward with information that either helps assert this opinion or proves it incorrect. -VB Sarge www.the-bastards.com Ask me about recruiting options
NCP Bullet	Posted - 2009.03.18 05:35:00 - [2] sounds like a personal problem
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:04:00 - [3] K162 is not a wild card. It is a wormhole that is spawned after someone goes through a wormhole. If you find a wormhole and it's not K162, the one on the other end will be K162. If you scanned down K162, it means someone already scanned the wormhole on the other end and went through it, spawning the K162 that you found. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Gypsy Overlord Amarr Super French Mining Merchant Surrender Fleet	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Gypsy Overlord on 18/03/2009 06:09:22 The above confuses me.
NCP Bullet	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:09:00 - [5] Edited by: NCP Bullet on 18/03/2009 06:14:06 so you are saying K162 is a tail? or an Exit?
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Aniel Zaar K162 is not a wild card. It is a wormhole that is spawned after someone goes through a wormhole. If you find a wormhole and it's not K162, the one on the other end will be K162. If you scanned down K162, it means someone already scanned the wormhole on the other end and went through it, spawning the K162 that you found. So we have a wormhole the leads from High Sec to Unknown Space that someone is already in, but has not found the wormhole that leads to high sec. I'm in the high sec system and I probe the wormhole. Its got a name of Z647. I go through it, and you claim on the other side it will be named K162? If not, please explain further If yes, what would happen if he had found it first? What would it then be named B247, implying it would lead to high sec? Would it then become named K162 on my side? I guess what I'm saying is I think your post need further clarification, as to me, it does not make a whole lot of sense. _________________
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Kulmid I'm in the high sec system and I probe the wormhole. Its got a name of Z647. I go through it, and you claim on the other side it will be named K162? Yes. In other words, whatever wormhole you go through, if it's not K162 itself, you will find K162 on the other side, connected to it. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Aniel Zaar Yes. In other words, whatever wormhole you go through, if it's not K162 itself, you will find K162 on the other side, connected to it. Does the wormhole on the other side get spawned when you actually probe the wormhole? Lets say hypothetically, I'm in an unknown system, my alliance mate is in high sec, we are both probing wormholes and they happened to be the same wormhole (his leads to me, mine leads to him). We both probe it down, but don't go through, he is in high sec on it, I am in Unknown Space on it. What will they then be named? Then if we each jump through, what will they be named? Basically what I'm asking is, does the wormhole on the other side named K162 spawn when you land on grid, or probe the wormhole spawning it, or when you actually jump through? _________________
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:27:00 - [9] Originally by: Kulmid Does the wormhole on the other side get spawned when you actually probe the wormhole? Lets say hypothetically, I'm in an unknown system, my alliance mate is in high sec, we are both probing wormholes and they happened to be the same wormhole (his leads to me, mine leads to him). We both probe it down, but don't go through, he is in high sec on it, I am in Unknown Space on it. What will they then be named? Then if we each jump through, what will they be named? Basically what I'm asking is, does the wormhole on the other side named K162 spawn when you land on grid, or probe the wormhole spawning it, or when you actually jump through? This is an excellent question. Chances of that ever being discovered are so slim, that I doubt you will ever get a certain answer. I think that the wormhole has no defined wormhole numbers attached to its entrance. When you land on the grid, your side of the exit gets a name (maybe depending on where it leads), and the other end is assigned K162. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:31:00 - [10] Edited by: Kulmid on 18/03/2009 06:34:54 Originally by: Aniel Zaar This is an excellent question. Chances of that ever being discovered are so slim, that I doubt you will ever get a certain answer. I think that the wormhole has no defined wormhole numbers attached to its entrance. When you land on the grid, your side of the exit gets a name (maybe depending on where it leads), and the other end is assigned K162. Yes, going back looking at the few wormholes I've probed since this thread was started, I'm seeing that what you say sounds very plausible, to the point I'd say its true. The last 3 in the chain I've gone through, have been K162 on the side that I jumped to, and a classification name on the side that I probed. Good information. Edit: Also thinking back, I probed a wormhole in low sec, named K162, when I jumped through I there were a few people inside. I asked them if they knew of any wormhole out and they told me they had probed the wormhole I had come though. _________________

VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:35:00 - [11] Edited original post for clarity on the K162 topic, hopefully in an easy to read format. www.the-bastards.com Ask me about recruiting options
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:35:00 - [12] It's hard not to notice when the wormholes with names lead to the K162 every time. I've used this information to get an idea of whether or not someone is on the other side, and if the scanned the exit yet. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:37:00 - [13] Originally by: VB Sarge Edited original post for clarity on the K162 topic, hopefully in an easy to read format. Actually, I think your map gave K162 a very precise name - destination wormhole - only spawns as a destination for another one. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Aniel Zaar It's hard not to notice when the wormholes with names lead to the K162 every time. I've used this information to get an idea of whether or not someone is on the other side, and if the scanned the exit yet. Yeah I agree its something we should have realized, apparently none of us were able to put it together. _________________
Snow Banshee Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:04:00 - [15] WOA!! great job ...
Instrument Dealer	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:37:00 - [16] First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest And it says what K162 is at the top so ...
Gypsy Overlord Amarr Super French Mining Merchant Surrender Fleet	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Instrument Dealer First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest And it says what K162 is at the top so ... You is trollin.
VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:43:00 - [18] i'm sorry, maybe you have done hours and hours of exploration first hand, cataloging every single wormhole you have gone into, and noting trends you find with multiple other people. my apologies that everything that has been discussed previously in this thread has been proven by our research, and, will continue to be proven, until someone can come up with some more factual proof saying that we are 100% wrong. Seeing how, I live in a wormhole, and have had encounters with wormholes in high sec, low sec, and 0.0, and lo and behold, EVERY single wormhole I have gone into falls into play with the explanation of the map I have provided, obviously, because you read it somewhere it has to be true. Proof, or stfu.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Instrument Dealer First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest Completely incorrect. Class 1 are soloable in an Ishtar, class 5 you get slaughtered in RRing BS fleets. I think its bold of you to say Class 6 cannot connect to 7. While I agree it is very highly unlikely, I don't think we can say its impossible. I would say there is a correlation between sec of the known space and the unknown space difficulty. _________________
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:48:00 - [20] As per CCP, every sec has a chance of spawning every kind of w-hole. There are very few impossible scenarios, and they are made impossible for balance - ie no cap ships in high sec, no supercaps in w-space, etc. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.

E150d	Posted - 2009.03.18 10:13:00 - [21] Having found K162 wormhole from k-space and w-space, I'm still unsure on something. Does the naming of the wormhole indicate that someone has travelled through it, or juts discovered it. Theoretically it could be either. 1. Person probes a wormhole, and warps to it. As they are the first person to load it on their grid, it is properly spawned there and then, and the corresponding wormhole is spawned and named appropriately on the other side 2. Person probes wormhole as above, wormhole created. The corresponding wormhole on the other side is not spawned until the person travels through this wormhole - at this time it is then named appropriately as an "exit wormhole" - K162. These options are based on the assumption that the wormholes are named as they spawn and then have a fixed name for their duration. I think it would be an unlikely implementation for them to be spawned nameless and then detect which one of the pair is loaded on a grid first before naming both of them.
VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 10:26:00 - [22] I think the fact that the whole disagreement so far has just been on the K162 convention, means we're pretty spot on with having this whole worm hole thing figured out, heh, good times. From our experience, I would say that my edited version on the K162 phenomena is 95% correct, giving some room for error. I believe wormholes are spawned with their name in place, and then "tagged" K162 on whichever end is appropriate once "discovered" This would not only have a less of a load on the server, but also is the more logical method.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 11:03:00 - [23] Edited by: Kulmid on 18/03/2009 11:02:49 Originally by: E150d Having found K162 wormhole from k-space and w-space, I'm still unsure on something. Does the naming of the wormhole indicate that someone has travelled through it, or juts discovered it. Theoretically it could be either. 1. Person probes a wormhole, and warps to it. As they are the first person to load it on their grid, it is properly spawned there and then, and the corresponding wormhole is spawned and named appropriately on the other side 2. Person probes wormhole as above, wormhole created. The corresponding wormhole on the other side is not spawned until the person travels through this wormhole - at this time it is then named appropriately as an "exit wormhole" - K162. These options are based on the assumption that the wormholes are named as they spawn and then have a fixed name for their duration. I think it would be an unlikely implementation for them to be spawned nameless and then detect which one of the pair is loaded on a grid first before naming both of them. It would be nearly impossible to verify 100%, but the assumption would be, the wormholes don't actually spawn until you load the grid its on. Until you load that grid, there is just a place holder on grid, as all exploration/missions currently work if I'm not mistaken. At the point the grid is loaded, a wormhole is spawned, named appropriately, and the other side is named K162. Edit: Fixed spelling _________________
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2009.03.18 13:02:00 - [24] Originally by: VB Sarge Using this map: Wormhole Classification Map Does somebody know where this map comes from? Is it based on empirical data (a lot of exploration) or is it some kind of API download from the database? Are the map and the WH codes complete? (For instance I am missing a wormhole with code "F..." while all other letters are there.) Originally by: VB Sarge It also seems, that reading from left to right, it goes from easiest to hardest (basically an "A" wormhole will be easier than a "Z" wormhole in the same class) I'm in doubt about this assumption, especially when I consider the wormholes going to a known space system. So far I had the following WHs to K-space: - U210 leading to a 0.3 system (but U210 is the last of class 8 codes, so I would expect it should go to a 0.1 system (hardest low sec type)) - A239 leading to a 0.3 system (but A239 is the first of class 8 codes, so I would expect it should go to a 0.4 system (easiest low sec type)) - N110 leading to a 0.5 system (N110 is one before the last of class 7 codes, this could confirm your theory) - U210 leading to a 0.4 system (but U210 is the last of class 8 codes, so I would expect it should go to a 0.1 system (hardest low sec type)) - R051 leading to a 0.2 system (R051 is one before the last of class 8 codes, maybe this could be OK again) In total there are too many exception from the rule imo. Perhaps the relation between the code ordering and the difficulty of the target system is only applicable to W-space but it would seem a little bit inconsequent to me.
Midnight Firestarter State War Academy	Posted - 2009.03.18 13:23:00 - [25] So ...... I'm in system J1000000 I jump into J130000 (Dangerous system) using gate X877. In system J130000 I appear next to a gate labled K162. I find a gate labled C247 (Unknown system). So what information can I conclude becuase the only thing I understand is that I'm moving from a Dangerous (level 3-4-5)to a Unknown system (level 1-2-3) and the exit gate is always called K162. Sorry for being thick and thankyou
Loki L'Odin Gallente Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.18 14:45:00 - [26] Originally by: VB Sarge Edited by: VB Sarge on 18/03/2009 06:34:41 As a warning, sometimes I talk in a roundabout manner, so apologies if that happens. He's being modest here, usually on Vent he speaks absolute garbage ♥ you
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:29:00 - [27] 1. OP should give credit to the individual who first posted that map. (I'll edit this post when I get home to link to the original thread. No it wasn't me, but I've been passing it around because it's such good info) 2. The hypothetical with two pilots scanning the same WH from opposite sides: I'm pretty sure both pilots would get a classification/ID appropriate for the system on the other side. As soon as one of them jumps through, the name on the side of the WH he jumped to would change to K162. 3. Just in case there's any doubt: If you see K162, it means someone has ALREADY jumped from the far side to your side. If you are in W space and find a WH other than the one you came through AND it's named K162, then someone else has come into that system. I'm not sure yet whether more than one WH can exist in a W space system at the same time. If not, then it would also indicate that your original WH has collapsed. Finally, if two people were in a system, found the same WH, and went through separately, they would never know from just WH information (though if one of them was as big as an Orca, etc. then the message about how much traffic has passed through might tell you something).
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:39:00 - [28] This may sound like a silly question (but we had some weird results in Sisi some weeks ago so thats why I ask) but does anybody know if both sides of a wormhole (always) collapse at the same time? Has somebody checked this on TQ? Regards, M.M.
Murasaki Ryujin	Posted - 2009.03.18 18:42:00 - [29] Is there anything that forces a WH to be linked before it is jumped through? Is there any test to determine if it is? To envision this you must seperate the concept of WH (entarance) from the link (connection between two systems). When you scan down a WH you either find a used WH or an new WH. A used WH has a link to a specific other system, has k162 on one side and another designator on the other dependant on the class of the system it connects to. A new WH on the other hand has no link as yet, just a class designator which will determine the type of system it will go to (and the info that shows up in the show info tab). When the first ship jumps through, alink is created in a system that matches the predetermined class of the WH and a new WH (gate) with a class of k162 is created in the chosen destination system. This means that no WH can be detected from both sides before it is transited and seems to me to require less overhead of the servers maintaing all of the possible WHs at the same time. It also means tha no type name needs to be changed, which doesn't sound very tidy to me. thoughts? evidence? experiments?
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2009.03.18 18:47:00 - [30] Originally by: Murasaki Ryujin Is there anything that forces a WH to be linked before it is jumped through? Is there any test to determine if it is? To envision this you must seperate the concept of WH (entarance) from the link (connection between two systems). When you scan down a WH you either find a used WH or an new WH. A used WH has a link to a specific other system, has k162 on one side and another designator on the other dependant on the class of the system it connects to. A new WH on the other hand has no link as yet, just a class designator which will determine the type of system it will go to (and the info that shows up in the show info tab). When the first ship jumps through, alink is created in a system that matches the predetermined class of the WH and a new WH (gate) with a class of k162 is created in the chosen destination system. This means that no WH can be detected from both sides before it is transited and seems to me to require less overhead of the servers maintaing all of the possible WHs at the same time. It also means tha no type name needs to be changed, which doesn't sound very tidy to me. thoughts? evidence? experiments? This is exactly how I envisioned it. It's very similar to the phenomenon of being the first person to enter a system after downtime. Until a system is entered, it is not "turned on". _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database

Instrument Dealer	Posted - 2009.03.18 18:51:00 - [31] Ok i'm wrong found a wormhole that is consistent with your theory, dang. Kinda eliminates some of the adventourus nature when you have an idea of what you're getting into before you do anything though ...
Balph Eubank	Posted - 2009.03.18 18:58:00 - [32] The only evidence I have to add to this is that I was in an unknown system where the wormhole collapsed and no new wormholes appeared to get back out. There were 11 Signatures in the system and I scanned down all of them. All were Gravimetric mining or Ladar cloud sites and none were Wormholes. I know how to use the scanner. One big scanner bubble showed there were only 11 Signatures. I had found them all. I even moved it up to 64 AU away to see if I was missing a signature way out is space, away from the solar system (even though they all seemed to be within 2AU of the solar plane) This lasted for over a day and no new signatures. No way out. A bug? does someone have to scan a wormhole in before the signature appears on my side? If a bug, perhaps this demonstrates something about the creation process of the wormhhole process.
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.03.18 19:04:00 - [33] Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 18/03/2009 19:04:42 Originally by: Balph Eubank The only evidence I have to add to this is that I was in an unknown system where the wormhole collapsed and no new wormholes appeared to get back out. There were 11 Signatures in the system and I scanned down all of them. All were Gravimetric mining or Ladar cloud sites and none were Wormholes. I know how to use the scanner. One big scanner bubble showed there were only 11 Signatures. I had found them all. I even moved it up to 64 AU away to see if I was missing a signature way out is space, away from the solar system (even though they all seemed to be within 2AU of the solar plane) This lasted for over a day and no new signatures. No way out. A bug? does someone have to scan a wormhole in before the signature appears on my side? If a bug, perhaps this demonstrates something about the creation process of the wormhhole process. What happened on Sisi was that a Wh in w-space collapsed while the other end (I believe it was high sec) didn't. In the end the person in the w-system had to self-destruct (or was moved by a dev not sure anymore). And when I went to the WH in k-space myself it was still there but not jumpable. At the moment things were still quite buggy on Sisi and the server was being overloaded so we attributed it to those factors. But I wonder if the same happened to you. Do you know what happened to the other side of that WH? Regards, M.M.
Induc	Posted - 2009.03.18 19:08:00 - [34] Edited by: Induc on 18/03/2009 19:09:15 Quote: This is exactly how I envisioned it. It's very similar to the phenomenon of being the first person to enter a system after downtime. Until a system is entered, it is not "turned on". That sounds possible. I once logged of inside a wh and when I tried to login a few hours later I first got something close to this: "Character selection failed - node/server/system not loaded" Was able to get in on my 2nd attempt, and the system seemed very empty.
Forte Hauler	Posted - 2009.03.18 19:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Balph Eubank ... This lasted for over a day and no new signatures. No way out. A bug? does someone have to scan a wormhole in before the signature appears on my side? If a bug, perhaps this demonstrates something about the creation process of the wormhhole process. Hi Ya... I was wondering about this as well...over the weekend we were able to scan down wormholes all over the place, but have yet to find one for the past couple of days and your question prompted me to ask this: Do Wormholes only spawn around the solar plane and orbiting gates, or will they also spawn in "deep space" a ways out from the star on any part of the grid? I was just wondering because I found three different wormhole over about 12hour period that all spawned in pretty much same place in the system and all were going to or coming out of different systems which means the previous ones had already collapsed and a new one had taken it's place in relatively the same spot...but now nothing in those same spots. I don't mind having to scan down deep space in a system if there is a WH payoff at the end of it...but I also don't want to waste our time if WHs are only going to spawn closer to the system's star(s). L8r, Forte Hauler
Yalezorn Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:05:00 - [36] There was a thread on the general forums about this with a Dev reply clarifying some things, if anyone cares to find the link. Basically there will always be a wormhole open in w-space, you either didn't find it or it was bugged. Also, the 4au limit no longer applies, there is still a limit but it's bigger now.
Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2009.03.18 22:23:00 - [37] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner I'm not sure yet whether more than one WH can exist in a W space system at the same time. If not, then it would also indicate that your original WH has collapsed. A w-system can have multiple wormholes active at the same time. I've seen systems with 3, (entrance WH + 2 exits) and I'm sure more are probably possible. BTW I've seen 4 wormholes active in a hi-sec system that I probed the other night.
Anopheli Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.03.18 22:28:00 - [38] My understanding is that both ends of the wormhole spawn simultaneously. This comes from Sisi experience, but I doubt this mechanic has changed on TQ. My reasons for this are basically the following: SiSi starts up. I log on, load up my scan ship and decide to find some wormholes. Several systems later, (with the obligatory node not loaded messages), I've yet to find anything. No signatures, not even anomalies. There is much griping in the Singularity channel. Approx 45-60 minutes after startup, someone with GM privs (forgot to take down the name, could've been CCP or an ECAID relaying) says that sites should be spawning. At this point, I'm in Lamadent, in Sinq Laison. I am the only one here, and the only one who has been here for since the node loaded to let me in. I scan down the wormhole, and it's a K162. Basically what seems to be happening is that the server is deciding what exploration content to spawn within a system. It does so according to some criteria that aren't really known. If it decides to create a wormhole, it spawns it, and places the K162 'other end' wormhole in an appropriate system.
Anopheli Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.03.18 22:29:00 - [39] Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen Originally by: Cameron Freerunner I'm not sure yet whether more than one WH can exist in a W space system at the same time. If not, then it would also indicate that your original WH has collapsed. A w-system can have multiple wormholes active at the same time. I've seen systems with 3, (entrance WH + 2 exits) and I'm sure more are probably possible. BTW I've seen 4 wormholes active in a hi-sec system that I probed the other night. The highest I've seen is a W-space system with two wormholes to K-space and two to other W-space systems, for a total of four. The only real restriction that seems to exist is that a W-space system must have one wormhole in it at all times.
Aryen Striker Anger Management	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:25:00 - [40] Edited by: Aryen Striker on 19/03/2009 00:28:24 Edited by: Aryen Striker on 19/03/2009 00:25:42 This is from personal experience ... Fleet Setup 3 x Coverts (Rigged) with all with Sister Expanded Probe Launchers and Sister Deep Space / Core Probes. (All skills at level 5) 1) jumped into system (Dangerous) and appeared at Wormhole (K162) 2) Several minutes later Wormhole Collapses. 3) All Cosmic Signatures Scanned and not a single Wormhole found. 4) Downtime 5) Wormhole found on Basic Scan as "unknown" with 3-5 mins. All I can say is "in my experience there was no wormhole" until downtime .. That was 3 x 8 Probes on a small system and nothing was found. This has happened to me twice in the two Dangerous systems I have visted and not in the normal Unknown. Am I losing the plot ;-)

Telete	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Aniel Zaar K162 is not a wild card. It is a wormhole that is spawned after someone goes through a wormhole. If you find a wormhole and it's not K162, the one on the other end will be K162. If you scanned down K162, it means someone already scanned the wormhole on the other end and went through it, spawning the K162 that you found. pff.. just when I thought I figured it all about wormholes
Anopheli Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Aryen Striker Edited by: Aryen Striker on 19/03/2009 00:25:42 All I can say is "in my experience there was no wormhole" until downtime .. That was 3 x 8 Probes on a small system and nothing was found. This has happened to me twice in Dangerous systems only. Aryen, has this happened sense the last mini patch? As there was supposedly an issue where wormholes were not immediately respawning in some systems after one collapsed. Supposedly it's fixed now.
Aryen Striker Anger Management	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:32:00 - [43] Quote: Aryen, has this happened sense the last mini patch? As there was supposedly an issue where wormholes were not immediately respawning in some systems after one collapsed. Supposedly it's fixed now. It happened last night (Tuesday 22:00 GMT Onwards) and I found the wormhole / left system today within 5 mins after DT. I have only noticed this in "Dangerous" Systems
Oracle Jo	Posted - 2009.03.19 02:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Anopheli My understanding is that both ends of the wormhole spawn simultaneously. This comes from Sisi experience, but I doubt this mechanic has changed on TQ. My reasons for this are basically the following: SiSi starts up. I log on, load up my scan ship and decide to find some wormholes. Several systems later, (with the obligatory node not loaded messages), I've yet to find anything. No signatures, not even anomalies. There is much griping in the Singularity channel. Approx 45-60 minutes after startup, someone with GM privs (forgot to take down the name, could've been CCP or an ECAID relaying) says that sites should be spawning. At this point, I'm in Lamadent, in Sinq Laison. I am the only one here, and the only one who has been here for since the node loaded to let me in. I scan down the wormhole, and it's a K162. Basically what seems to be happening is that the server is deciding what exploration content to spawn within a system. It does so according to some criteria that aren't really known. If it decides to create a wormhole, it spawns it, and places the K162 'other end' wormhole in an appropriate system. it could be because the wormhole was 'linked' before the downtime... Anyway this tread is gold. thanks
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.03.19 03:22:00 - [45] if u get stuck always carry deep space probes put em over every planet at 16au then go down to 4au by process of elimation. They can show u site types u can narrow down the sig - unknown ( wormholes in wspace only) also ded and drone combat in k space. Pull out the cores and away u go. If u get stuck petiton it and if the devs reply there is a wh there then there is if not they will most likley move u out
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.19 03:27:00 - [46] Originally by: ollobrains2 if u get stuck always carry deep space probes put em over every planet at 16au then go down to 4au by process of elimation. They can show u site types u can narrow down the sig - unknown ( wormholes in wspace only) also ded and drone combat in k space. My deep space probes don't tell me what kind of signatures there are...? Am I missing something? _________________
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.03.19 04:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Anopheli Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen Originally by: Cameron Freerunner I'm not sure yet whether more than one WH can exist in a W space system at the same time. If not, then it would also indicate that your original WH has collapsed. A w-system can have multiple wormholes active at the same time. I've seen systems with 3, (entrance WH + 2 exits) and I'm sure more are probably possible. BTW I've seen 4 wormholes active in a hi-sec system that I probed the other night. The highest I've seen is a W-space system with two wormholes to K-space and two to other W-space systems, for a total of four. The only real restriction that seems to exist is that a W-space system must have one wormhole in it at all times. Yesterday I was in a W-system that also had 4 WHs. All of them to k-space. One to high-sec, two to lo-sec and one to null-sec. It was a normal unknown (a X702 to be exact). Regards, M.M.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.19 04:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Miss Moonwych Yesterday I was in a W-system that also had 4 WHs. All of them to k-space. One to high-sec, two to lo-sec and one to null-sec. It was a normal unknown (a X702 to be exact). Would I be correct in assuming that, from the inside, they were all named K162 except for the high-sec one (or perhaps even all of them)? But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.19 05:45:00 - [49] Originally by: Wet Ferret Would I be correct in assuming that, from the inside, they were all named K162 except for the high-sec one (or perhaps even all of them)? They would only all be named K162 if someone had already probed that wormhole from the other side and jumped through to the w-space system. If he was, on the other hand, the first one to probe all of those wormholes, they would be given names that correspond to High Sec, Low Sec, and Null Sec. They would all be named K162 on the other side. _________________
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.03.19 05:55:00 - [50] I made some notes. This was J114627, a normal unknown, class 3 (X702) Wormholes and their names on either side: - WH in high sec named X702, named K162 in W-system - WH in low sec named X702, named K162 in W-system - WH in low sec named K162, named U210 in W-system (low sec system was Asakai, 0.3, Black Rise) - WH in null sec named ????, named K162 in W-system (didn't go there) Regards, M.M.

Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2009.03.19 06:22:00 - [51] Curiouser and curiouser. So it's possible to have NO exits? I wonder if there is a per day limit on WHs in a W space system. Or if its completely and utterly random. That might mean you would go extended periods without an exit. Does anyone know if the WHs in W space always lead to other systems in the same cluster (clusters being the groups of W systems shown on the map)? If so, it should be possible to map the clusters fairly easily by referring to the map and using some puzzle-solving skills (Games magazine anyone?). If not, OMG that would be incredibly complicated. Finally, I have entered most wormholes from Minmatar space. So far, when I've exited from W space through some other wormhole into hisec space, its been Ammar and Ammatar Mandate. Is anyone finding a correlation between your race or system entry point and the exit WH? Or is it just complete coincidence?
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.19 06:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Curiouser and curiouser. So it's possible to have NO exits? I wonder if there is a per day limit on WHs in a W space system. Or if its completely and utterly random. That might mean you would go extended periods without an exit. Does anyone know if the WHs in W space always lead to other systems in the same cluster (clusters being the groups of W systems shown on the map)? If so, it should be possible to map the clusters fairly easily by referring to the map and using some puzzle-solving skills (Games magazine anyone?). If not, OMG that would be incredibly complicated. Finally, I have entered most wormholes from Minmatar space. So far, when I've exited from W space through some other wormhole into hisec space, its been Ammar and Ammatar Mandate. Is anyone finding a correlation between your race or system entry point and the exit WH? Or is it just complete coincidence? I'd say that is just coincidence. We first entered a wormhole system in from Minmatar space and found our way into another wormhole system. Then found an exit into Amarr Space. We stayed in that second unknown system since the day of the patch until today. At first most of our exits to known space went to Amarr Space. Then we had them near Jita for a while, a few near Gallente, then a few near Minmatar. It seems like where the wormhole will exit is random, but does have cycles of areas they seem to exit. _________________
Ralitge boyter Minmatar Scalar Federation	Posted - 2009.03.19 09:38:00 - [53] A dev is crying in the corner of the CCP office right now. It seems very much like this map has pretty much worked out the way wormholes work and how they are clasified as being dangarous or not. So far the description of the OP seems to be spot on, all I can say is poor little dev he/she must be having a bad day today. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.19 09:57:00 - [54] Edited by: Wet Ferret on 19/03/2009 10:02:30 Edited by: Wet Ferret on 19/03/2009 10:00:53 Originally by: Kulmid Originally by: Wet Ferret Would I be correct in assuming that, from the inside, they were all named K162 except for the high-sec one (or perhaps even all of them)? They would only all be named K162 if someone had already probed that wormhole from the other side and jumped through to the w-space system. If he was, on the other hand, the first one to probe all of those wormholes, they would be given names that correspond to High Sec, Low Sec, and Null Sec. They would all be named K162 on the other side. That's just speculation, isn't it? We don't really know that the K162 isn't spawned until someone jumps through it. Do we? What I mean is, "destination system" could mean something entirely different. Like perhaps the WH spawned from the non-K162 side for a specific reason. edit2- Apparently I was right about 3/4 of the WHs in that system being K162s. The reason I was thinking that sounded stupid when trying to put into words, though. Probably just a coincidence. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Antara Oblique	Posted - 2009.03.19 10:52:00 - [55] Well, I liked the K162 theory until tonight. I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971. From my findings I don't think anybody had ever been inside. Otherwise I think they would have ran the 15 BS spawn cosmic anomolies we found. Not to meantion mined the 6 ladar sites. Best of my finding so far!!
Nisstyree Chimera Raiders	Posted - 2009.03.19 10:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Instrument Dealer First of all you're reading the map wrong in no way would class 6 (deadly destination) jump to class 7 (high sec destination). Class 1 is in the center therefore is a "core" site therefore hardest and this has been said before. Class 6 is easiest And it says what K162 is at the top so ... You sir are reading it wrong... I can confirm first hand that a class 6 WH (deadly) connected to a class 7 (highsec) and thanks to that we got our loot and fleet home easely.
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2009.03.19 12:33:00 - [57] Originally by: Antara Oblique I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971. So the K162 theory is falsified! I heard the same (both ends of WH were NOT K162) from another person. But it seems to be very rare and raises the question even more what the "special" WH code K162 wants to tell us. I can't see a reason anymore at the moment why this K162 special code exists at all and why not every WH has "normal" codes on both ends.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.19 12:57:00 - [58] Edited by: Kulmid on 19/03/2009 12:57:34 Originally by: Kolmogorow Originally by: Antara Oblique I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971. So the K162 theory is falsified! I heard the same (both ends of WH were NOT K162) from another person. But it seems to be very rare and raises the question even more what the "special" WH code K162 wants to tell us. I can't see a reason anymore at the moment why this K162 special code exists at all and why not every WH has "normal" codes on both ends. While I understands what I am about to say sounds absolutely ridiculous. It sounds like when you jump through the other side becomes K162. But if its probed before someone jumps through, it is given a real name. Basically my theory now is: When a wormhole is created, it has 2 sides, linking two systems. On the grid where the wormholes are there is no actual wormhole, just placeholders. When you probe the wormhole and load the grid, it is spawned and assigned a name which corresponds to the system on the other side. If you jump through, and force the wormhole on the other side to be spawned by you jumping through, it is assigned K162. If you warp away without jumping through, and someone probes the wormhole in the other system. They will spawn that wormhole by loading the grid, and not jumping through. This wormhole will now be assigned a name corresponding to its destination system. If that second pilot now jumps through, because the wormhole on the other side has already been spawned, it will not be assigned the name K162, and keeps the name it has. Sorry for the wall of text, I hope it makes sense. Edit: Clarified a few words. _________________
Nisstyree Chimera Raiders	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:12:00 - [59] No, once the WH is spawned and names are assigned they no longer change.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:14:00 - [60] Originally by: Nisstyree No, once the WH is spawned and names are assigned they no longer change. If you are replying to my post, I must have explained it poorly, as my theory supports this statement. _________________

Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:19:00 - [61] Originally by: Kulmid Edited by: Kulmid on 19/03/2009 12:57:34 Originally by: Kolmogorow Originally by: Antara Oblique I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971. So the K162 theory is falsified! I heard the same (both ends of WH were NOT K162) from another person. But it seems to be very rare and raises the question even more what the "special" WH code K162 wants to tell us. I can't see a reason anymore at the moment why this K162 special code exists at all and why not every WH has "normal" codes on both ends. While I understands what I am about to say sounds absolutely ridiculous. It sounds like when you jump through the other side becomes K162. But if its probed before someone jumps through, it is given a real name. Basically my theory now is: When a wormhole is created, it has 2 sides, linking two systems. On the grid where the wormholes are there is no actual wormhole, just placeholders. When you probe the wormhole and load the grid, it is spawned and assigned a name which corresponds to the system on the other side. If you jump through, and force the wormhole on the other side to be spawned by you jumping through, it is assigned K162. If you warp away without jumping through, and someone probes the wormhole in the other system. They will spawn that wormhole by loading the grid, and not jumping through. This wormhole will now be assigned a name corresponding to its destination system. If that second pilot now jumps through, because the wormhole on the other side has already been spawned, it will not be assigned the name K162, and keeps the name it has. Sorry for the wall of text, I hope it makes sense. Edit: Clarified a few words. Yes, this could an explanation, especially why those WHs with other names than K162 on both sides are so rare (by far the most people will jump through when they find a WH). But whether it makes sense? I don't know. I'm starting to think that the discussion is only about technical implementation details (hidden in the dark of the dev brains) without any content-wise meaning.
3Bird Gallente Star Fox Corp.	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:38:00 - [62] Ok my understand of W-space and wormholes is limited, iv found 4 totle and been in 2 of them, now i have no idea about class because i didnt look (didnt know to look but do now so thanks to the OP) but from where im looking, no one will be able to crack wormholes and understand them without a much bigger data set, even if you find 4 wormholes a day it would still take over 250 day to get a data set worth anaylising, im not saying it cant be done, what im saying is why not work together on this. if every1 in this topic posted all the data for each wormhole they find and travel through, we would end up with a much bigger data set, i think your right about the classifactions of w-space but untill the K162 theory fits into place this theory on wormholes wont be accepted by the masses. on the other hand if your happy with the data and findings you have already no worrys :P every so often ill post up data on what ever wormholes i find, you can look and see if it fits in with your theory, and if it doesnt use the information to help adjust it. rambal aside, its good info and alot of help to me and im sure many others who will read this.
Catari Taga Centre Of Attention Rough Necks	Posted - 2009.03.19 15:17:00 - [63] Originally by: 3Bird on the other hand if your happy with the data and findings you have already no worrys :P The data in the map with the wormhole class information doesn't come from observation, instead it comes directly from the EVE client's very own data files, so there is really no point in discussing it.
Enkidu Uruksen Wakizashi Renaissance	Posted - 2009.03.19 23:53:00 - [64] There's an IRC bot somewhere that has more database-looking wormhole space information... I don't know where the bot is: a guy took my J1234567 name and read off the information about my wormhole to me. The additional information has to do with "anomalies" about a wormhole-space system. Not the anomalies you scan, like Perimeter Hangars and so on, but different effects the wormhole system has on your ship: shield boosting, top speed, etc. Does anybody have that information in a usable form?
Matterick Boon Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.20 01:02:00 - [65] so if i find a wh in kspace and it's labelled k162 how am i supposed to figure out the tier? because if i find any other wormholes in that w-space and pass threw them the exits i just came out of are all gonna say k162 aren't they? unless someone else found it in k-space first... right? o_O
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.20 01:39:00 - [66] Originally by: Antara Oblique Well, I liked the K162 theory until tonight. I probed a WH named D382. Jumped through. The name on the other side was Z971. I call your bs. Fraps or it didn't happen. I've gone through over 60 wormholes, and they all had K162 on one of the sides. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.20 02:30:00 - [67] Originally by: Matterick Boon so if i find a wh in kspace and it's labelled k162 how am i supposed to figure out the tier? because if i find any other wormholes in that w-space and pass threw them the exits i just came out of are all gonna say k162 aren't they? unless someone else found it in k-space first... right? Exactly. There is no way to find out definitively what class of wormhole you are in if you come in through a wormhole named K162. You would have to wait until someone probes it from the outside in, and then go through the wormhole and check the name on the other side. _________________
Anopheli Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.03.20 04:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Curiouser and curiouser. So it's possible to have NO exits? I wonder if there is a per day limit on WHs in a W space system. Or if its completely and utterly random. That might mean you would go extended periods without an exit. The possibility of having no exits is an acknowledged bug, supposed to be fixed by the last patch applied to TQ. The dev's have unequivocally stated that a W-space system will -always- have a wormhole present in it. Now, this may lead to another W-space system, which does you no good at all if that's not what you're looking for. There is a difference between not finding one, and there not being one. GMs can apparently easily see if there's a wormhole, if there isn't, quite a few people have been moved. Originally by: Cameron Freerunner Does anyone know if the WHs in W space always lead to other systems in the same cluster (clusters being the groups of W systems shown on the map)? If so, it should be possible to map the clusters fairly easily by referring to the map and using some puzzle-solving skills (Games magazine anyone?). If not, OMG that would be incredibly complicated. Finally, I have entered most wormholes from Minmatar space. So far, when I've exited from W space through some other wormhole into hisec space, its been Ammar and Ammatar Mandate. Is anyone finding a correlation between your race or system entry point and the exit WH? Or is it just complete coincidence? Don't get too hung up on the map. How the systems are arranged in the map is by convenience. Basically, they grouped all the systems of similar difficulty together. It's like putting all the 1.0sec systems in one region, all the 0.9s in another and so on. The game engine requires that every system have a physical position, which is how things like ISCS Jumpplanner, and the map work. Since in W-space you cannot use jump drives, have no map, and there are no static connections between systems, this doesn't really matter. There appear to be factors influencing where wormholes open, for example I know of one system that has consistently spawned a C247 wormhole to a secocnd system, which the majority of which have exits in some very narrow areas. On the other hand, An Anarcht, of Goonswarm, described a situation he encountered where a wormhole linked to the same system it was already in - like a wormhole in Jita linking to another spot in Jita. Obviously, there's some randomness involved, perhaps a great deal. Wether it is totally random is open to debate, as the system is absolutely enormous, large enough to accommodate a huge number of freak coincidences just by virtue of the sheer number of players, systems, and wormholes opening.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.03.20 04:01:00 - [69] Found X702 (Class 3?) in Croleur just a minute ago, presumably this means it's as yet unexplored? (Incidentally I've left a bookmark to it in a can outside Croleur 3-1 station, if anyone wants it they're welcome to it)
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2009.03.20 05:47:00 - [70] Wow. Some good info since my last question. To the poster claiming to find a WH with no K162, let's see proof. I've never seen a WH without K162 one one side. Still it might just be really rare. Vulmid's theory sounds reasonable. The whole thing seems a little Schroedinger's Cat to me. What's this IRC bot that was mentioned? Is it real? Raltage has inadvertently reminded me that the OP still hasn't acknowledged the original map thread, so here it is.

NCP Bullet	Posted - 2009.03.20 06:11:00 - [71] sounds like a personal problem
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.03.20 06:21:00 - [72] Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 20/03/2009 06:21:54 Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load. Lets for the moment assume that when a side of a WH is not scanned but only "found" by jumping through from the other side its named K162. Only when scanned and grid-loaded for the first time will it have a real name. To prove that were the case you could try this: - put and leave a (alt)character in a w-system and keep scanning for new WHs. Make sure that when you find a new WH you don't go through it. You want somebody else to find the other side. - remember the WHs that are not K162 and connect to K-space - wait/dir scan until somebody else comes from any of these new WHs to your W-system - now go through the WH and see if the other side if called K162 or not It will be interesting to see if above assumption is correct. If it is then it will be very rare for a WH to not have one side called K162 but it won't be impossible. Just some food for thought. Regards, M.M.
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.20 06:54:00 - [73] Originally by: Miss Moonwych Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load Interesting idea. I see one problem with it though. You might spend hours/days sitting on one end of a wormhole when someone may have already found it from your side and jumped through it, spawning K162... Like I said before, no proof - it didn't happen. If it would happen to me, I would fraps it, screen shoot it, take a video/pictures with my camera, call people in my corp/current system to witness it/fraps it and come here to back it up. If it did happen and the person didn't document it - tough luck. If you would have seen an alien for real, nobody would believe you too. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Zalmoxes Haita de lupi Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:52:00 - [74] Edited by: Zalmoxes on 20/03/2009 11:52:53 Originally by: Aniel Zaar Originally by: Miss Moonwych Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load Interesting idea. I see one problem with it though. You might spend hours/days sitting on one end of a wormhole when someone may have already found it from your side and jumped through it, spawning K162... Like I said before, no proof - it didn't happen. If it would happen to me, I would fraps it, screen shoot it, take a video/pictures with my camera, call people in my corp/current system to witness it/fraps it and come here to back it up. If it did happen and the person didn't document it - tough luck. If you would have seen an alien for real, nobody would believe you too. there is nothing wronk with M.M.'s ideea , if someone scaned it in K-space and jumped, in the wh-space it will be called k162 and you would see this
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2009.03.20 12:55:00 - [75] Originally by: Aniel Zaar Interesting idea. I see one problem with it though. You might spend hours/days sitting on one end of a wormhole when someone may have already found it from your side and jumped through it, spawning K162... I think the important point of the test is to scan and find NEW wormholes if I understand the idea correctly. So you have to make sure that you scan a WH that wasn't there before (perhaps immediately after downtime) at a moment when noone else is in the W-system (who could have scanned it before and jumped through). But yes, some uncertainty remains: Someone could have been extremely quick (or lucky) and hidden to find the hole and jumped through. Originally by: Zalmoxes there is nothing wronk with M.M.'s ideea , if someone scaned it in K-space and jumped, in the wh-space it will be called k162 and you would see this So you really assume that the WH is suddenly renamed while you watch at it? Of course not impossible but the last possibility I would expect.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:11:00 - [76] Originally by: Miss Moonwych Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 20/03/2009 06:21:54 Here is a possible test to figure out whether the name of a side of a WH is given at the time of first grid-load. Lol.. These are actions that cuold making nodes go down and DB too failover. (It's not a real failover btw). I wonder if CCP have though of this, or will DB crash with duplicate IDs getting pushed in somewhere ?
MarcusD Maersk Incendia Tempestas	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:31:00 - [77] Edited by: MarcusD on 20/03/2009 13:33:21 I feel safe saying that if you find a wormhole with K162 it has been scanned and used from the side you find K162 at. Example, Last night I found 3 wormholes, each wormhole had a name like X702 in k-space space, But once I jumped through into w-space it was named K162 and in all those system there where people in it already. So I beleive that the K162 is the exit wormhole name. I've found K162 first in k-space. So I think someone had already found the original wormhole in w-space and the K162 is the exit to the wormhole found in w-space. -- You can't guarantee that after down time it will be a new wormhole, I've had wormholes booked marked, waited until down time logged back on and went to my bookmark and the wormhole was still there with the same name.
Lijhal FrEE d00M Fighters	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:36:00 - [78] K162 - This wormhole is always the destination of another wormhole type sad ccp has given us the data bump ... now we can see the entire stats of each wormhole out there ... making "discovery" pointless ...
MarcusD Maersk Incendia Tempestas	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:38:00 - [79] Where is this data dump?
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.21 00:36:00 - [80] Originally by: MarcusD Where is this data dump? -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.

Anopheli Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2009.03.21 04:12:00 - [81] http://www.eveonline.com/community/toolkit.asp Resources for the data dump. http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/data/Apocrypha_1.0.0.84609_db.zip And the DB dump for the current version of Apocrypha on TQ. Because CCP hasn't updated the page. Bear in mind it's not exactly easy to work with. Basically this confusion stems from how the server addresses the wormhole in the game world. K162 is the name of link in the opposite direction of a wormhole with another name. Basically, in the system that originally spawned a wormhole, like X702, you have an object named "Wormhole X702" At the other end, you have a wormhole named K162. Both objects are placed when the wormhole link is generated and tied together. No scanning is necessary to make the K162 exist - you are perfectly capable of scanning either end of the wormhole out all by your little lonesome self, without anyone else being there or involved.
Syriana Luna Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2009.03.21 09:17:00 - [82] could the confusion be that the wormhole 'gate' has a different name for each side? Visual example with random name chosen except for K162 (Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162 (Known Space) I concur that any K162 is the exit to a wormhole, adding that K162 is the named side of the exit gate leading to known space. This might have been a general knowledge thing but I felt compelled to put it on paper so to speak. *few minutes later: I know I had a point in there somewhere..but its 5:16 am and I lost the train of thought lol.
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.21 09:45:00 - [83] Originally by: Syriana Luna could the confusion be that the wormhole 'gate' has a different name for each side? Visual example with random name chosen except for K162 (Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162 (Known Space) I concur that any K162 is the exit to a wormhole, adding that K162 is the named side of the exit gate leading to known space. This might have been a general knowledge thing but I felt compelled to put it on paper so to speak. *few minutes later: I know I had a point in there somewhere..but its 5:16 am and I lost the train of thought lol. K162 is will also be on the opposite side of a wormhole you find that goes w-space to w-space. _________________
Syriana Luna Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2009.03.21 09:53:00 - [84] Originally by: Kulmid K162 is will also be on the opposite side of a wormhole you find that goes w-space to w-space. so you are saying that: (Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162>>-----Wspace----<<M609()K162(Known Space) is possible?
VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.21 10:05:00 - [85] You're misunderstanding a little bit. K162 is going to be the opposite side of a discovered wormhole. K162 can be on either side, either the W space or K space side of the wormhole, that part is irrelevant. K162 will always exist on one side of a wormhole, depending entirely on which side was probed out, either the W space side (in which case K162 appears in K space) or the K space side (in which case K162 appears in W space. So to be more accurate, an example would look more like this: (K space) H121<->K162 (W space) A641<->K162 (K space)
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.21 12:52:00 - [86] Originally by: Syriana Luna so you are saying that: (Known space) R943()Z971>>-------W Space-------<<Y683()K162>>-----Wspace----<<M609()K162(Known Space) is possible? Yes, except the Z971 would be K162. I have also witnessed a situation exactly like the one you have modeled, besides the flaw I previously pointed out. _________________
Flax Volcanus Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2009.03.21 14:43:00 - [87] Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:44:09 Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:43:43 As far as there always being an exit, that seems to be relative. My group has worked our way into a dangerous system whose exits to easier systems (including k-space) have been down for a couple days. The only wormhole our uber-prober was able to find was one that leads into deadly space. Going into the deadly system, the only wormhole out was the one through which we'd come. (Unfortunately, I didn't note the names and I'm not online atm.) So, although there is a way out of each of the two w-systems, together they comprise a closed loop. No real point here except that I am ****ed to be wasting a few days of valuable playtime probing out the same, already-run grav and ladar sites, over and over and over...
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.21 18:14:00 - [88] Originally by: Flax Volcanus Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:44:09 Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 21/03/2009 14:43:43 As far as there always being an exit, that seems to be relative. My group has worked our way into a dangerous system whose exits to easier systems (including k-space) have been down for a couple days. The only wormhole our uber-prober was able to find was one that leads into deadly space. Going into the deadly system, the only wormhole out was the one through which we'd come. (Unfortunately, I didn't note the names and I'm not online atm.) So, although there is a way out of each of the two w-systems, together they comprise a closed loop. No real point here except that I am ****ed to be wasting a few days of valuable playtime probing out the same, already-run grav and ladar sites, over and over and over... So spend your time collapsing the gate instead of probing useless sites. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
S3dINSTBE EXPLORATIS Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2009.03.22 01:15:00 - [89] Originally by: VB Sarge and a LOT of self research (on behalf of myself and my alliance) and hours of discussions, I'm pretty sure we have deciphered this map in a very easy to read manner. I call shenanigans on this comment. __
VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.22 08:10:00 - [90] While I appreciate the bump, can you please take your trolling elsewhere? I would like to thank the contributors to this thread so far, and hope that there's some more good discussions in the future. The fact that the only debate has been on the topic of K162, I think that means we pretty much got it right when we went public with our theory. On the topic of K162, it's interesting how there seems to be 2 main camps in the discussion "how K162 is actually created" but I'm happy that we have reached a consensus on the more important "what" it is and how it functions as a cartography tool. -VB Sarge

JanoMark ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 10:10:00 - [91] After reading the thread fully, we all know trolls don't real the entire thread, this turned out to be a very intresting thread =) I'm going to try to explain a few things that make the most logical sense to me, which I think after a little thinking to those who a first disagree, will reverse they're preemptive denial. From a design perspective in-order to create the least train to their equipment, ultimately reducing lag, have to go with the fewest DB R/Ws, would design wormholes that make the fewest calls. Quote: ALL WHs are randomly placed and are temporary. Quote: If a WH closes there are only 2 ways to get out - find another WH or self destruct. Quote: If your WH closes the new WH you find may lead to ANYWHERE (even deep 0.0) in EVE, it may also be another WH deeper into W-Space. Quote: There are no gates in W-space, the only way to get to another WH solarsystem is via another WH. This is the criteria that CCP had set forth to do, and with the fewest DB calls, because if you reduce the amount of time it takes to go from your action request to actually happening, you reduce lag, which we all know we hate. CCP uses Python which is an object oriented programming language meaning CCP most likely load every system on the server as an object, and this is why EvE will never allow you to fly the ship with your mouse, other than giving it directions by clicking. object(planet,x,y){ Size=x; position=y; etc;} Object(Neesher){ object(planet,x,y) object(planet,x1,y1) ::This is also where you would include POSs, your ship, which includes, current direction,speed, and action.::} I know some of you may see that and not quite understand what I'm trying to say, and I apologize, I'm high atm and my thoughts may not exactly come forth clearly, but the overlying reasoning and logic are correct. Creating an instance of systems allows all of EvE's current Universe be as one server without needing an enormous amount of computational power and additional Data Bases, which tend to be about reliably storage more than speed, by dumping all of it's data into RAM. Each node uploads z amount of systems, with x amount of planets, and y amount of moons. Each of these systems have parameters, for which planets to put in place with x amount of moons. Now say your ship jumps in, so it writes as a new ship object, which includes position, guns, size,etc.. You decide your just going to warp straight through, you right click and select, 'warp to 0', so now your client sends it's request to the server which now writes what your ship object is doing. So your client must request that the server changes what you ask your ship to do. This means, in order to get realtime control of your ship, the client would have to update the server every x amount of frames, remember we're trying to limit lag, so this wont do. With that underlining principal in place you can know understand how wormholes work. Many people in this thread were on the right idea, but this will hopefully clarify. The DB has all the information for each system that will be loaded into RAM, each system has an amount of objects. For wormholes, an example will be x amount of signatures, y amount of anomalies, z amount of planets. This will always include 2 wormhole signatures, though where they connect to will not be written until someone lands on grid. This creates 3 benefits to CCP. 1: CCP does not have to load unneeded information like, where each wormhole connects to, when no one will even see unless they go looking, 2: Randomness, and 3: it creates PvP by giving the players information of whether someone may be on the other side. CCP can randomize certain parameters into how wormholes connect, while not needing to stress the server further than necessary. So as others have said, WH signature is spawned in a system, though where that WH leads is still not certain. Now you probe it out and when you get to grid the server now decides, randomly,
JanoMark ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 10:10:00 - [92] so we now have(Quoted from VB) Quote: (K space) H121<->K162 (W space) the server loads the W-space system into RAM now. Now if someone probes the other WH signature and in W-space, the server would then create a new random link, so we have Quote: (K space) H121<->K162 (W space) A641<->K162 (K space) Though one thing that hasn't been seen yet is (K space) K162<->H121 (W space) A641<->K162 in which both K-space wormholes return to W-Space, perhaps someone will confirm this. Through logical reasoning one will see that this makes the most sense logically and for those who failed to understand I apologize a second time and hope someone will clarify. Jano
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2009.03.23 00:46:00 - [93] Originally by: JanoMark ...I'm high atm... ...So as others have said, WH signature is spawned in a system, though where that WH leads is still not certain. Now you probe it out and when you get to grid the server now decides, randomly... (Lol, sorry to quote just this between all your explanations.)But I really don't understand your final conclusion. At some point the target of a wormhole must be decided and written into the database, at least when the second one probes it out and jumps through, otherwise every fleet trying to jump through the same WH would be disrupted and land in different random system. Why should this assumed random assignment of WH-targets have any benefit regarding lag and loading stuff into client memory? I could imagine that the target is nothing more than some database identifier as long I am on the other side. Whether this target identity is created as soon as the source WH spawns or when the first one probes the source seems to make no difference to me with respect to performance. Well, this random assignment of the target at the moment of the first probeout (or jump through) could be a correct theory or not. But this technical lag minimization argument isn't convincing for me. (Or I don't understand it ... I'm tired atm ... need to stop here.)
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:58:00 - [94] Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 23/03/2009 02:58:17 Originally by: JanoMark Though one thing that hasn't been seen yet is (K space) K162<->H121 (W space) A641<->K162 in which both K-space wormholes return to W-Space, perhaps someone will confirm this. This scenario is only possible when the probed entrance is collapsed and then the wormhole has two exits probed from inside. I'm not sure a lot of people experienced this. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
JanoMark ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.23 06:42:00 - [95] Edited by: JanoMark on 23/03/2009 06:44:28 Originally by: Kolmogorow Originally by: JanoMark ...I'm high atm... ...So as others have said, WH signature is spawned in a system, though where that WH leads is still not certain. Now you probe it out and when you get to grid the server now decides, randomly... ...At some point the target of a wormhole must be decided and written into the database, at least when the second one probes it out and jumps through, otherwise every fleet trying to jump through the same WH would be disrupted and land in different random system.... I apologize for my confusing post, but as I am not high this time, hopefully I will be able to clarify. The Database has templates of all the systems, including K- and W-space, which are loaded into RAM as objects, and contain other objects, or items. When the server first loads this system object it will assign, randomly, how many signatures it will have, as well as the included 2 wormhole signatures. Now the server at this point would NOT know where these wormholes would lead to, because at this point there is no need for it to know, meaning you save some amount of memory space. Now when someone does indeed probe out this wormhole and loads the grid the server would at this point randomly generate a target system for it to land at, with a certain amount of parameters limiting where it will actually land. The server will also most likely load a new w-space system, based on a database template, into a node. This wormhole that links these two systems, k-space>w-space, is assigned an amount of time to exist, at which point it will then collapse and the whole process will thus again repeat. So this makes it very difficult to land in the same w-space system because the server is randomly generating wormhole links to systems, though there is a criteria it does follow. Hope that clears things up a bit but should explain how wormholes most likely work, as I'm not a Dev and they will probably never go into this much technical detail about it, we will never know for sure, but at least this is the most efficient way of accomplishing the task. Jano Edit: Originally by: Aniel Zaar Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 23/03/2009 02:58:17 Originally by: JanoMark Though one thing that hasn't been seen yet is (K space) K162<->H121 (W space) A641<->K162 in which both K-space wormholes return to W-Space, perhaps someone will confirm this. This scenario is only possible when the probed entrance is collapsed and then the wormhole has two exits probed from inside. I'm not sure a lot of people experienced this. Correct, that is what I was getting at but didn't accomplish the task =P
Janine Ramsey	Posted - 2009.03.23 11:09:00 - [96] Originally by: JanoMark The server will also most likely load a new w-space system, based on a database template, into a node. i can confirm that as i noticed some significant lag while trying to jump through an so far untouched WH.Happened always from inside a WH system to K-space.
Catari Taga Centre Of Attention Rough Necks	Posted - 2009.03.23 12:19:00 - [97] Originally by: Aniel Zaar Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 23/03/2009 02:58:17 Originally by: JanoMark Though one thing that hasn't been seen yet is (K space) K162<->H121 (W space) A641<->K162 in which both K-space wormholes return to W-Space, perhaps someone will confirm this. This scenario is only possible when the probed entrance is collapsed and then the wormhole has two exits probed from inside. I'm not sure a lot of people experienced this. If you are living in w-space you get this quite a lot (because you know when your wormholes despawn and can probe the next WH immediately before someone from the outside does). The interesting part about the WH properties to me is that they also depend on which side is discovered first. In particular when talking about class 1 or 2 w-space you get much better WHs (more mass allowance) when probing from the inside out than doing it the other way around. For example, probing into class 1 w-space you can only find WHs between 100 and 500 mil kg total mass allowance. However, probing out from class 1 w-space to get back to highsec you will find a WH with a minimum 1000 mil kg total mass allowance up to the maximum possible value. So it entirely depends on which side of a WH is found first to decide on the quality of the connection.
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2009.03.23 18:48:00 - [98] Originally by: VB Sarge The fact that the only debate has been on the topic of K162, I think that means we pretty much got it right when we went public with our theory. I will take the opportunity to point out AGAIN that neither the theory nor the map were yours. The original thread predates yours by several days. It also made the point much more succinctly and with less swagger. Here's the original thread AGAIN. Give credit where it's due.
tonks950	Posted - 2009.03.24 05:57:00 - [99] Edited by: tonks950 on 24/03/2009 05:56:55 Sorry to bump this thread again everybody, but Freerunner if you're going to have an attitude about who posted what when then the thread you linked is hardly the original thread. The earliest I can find is on the 13th which also predates your link. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1022369/page/1#17
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:12:00 - [100] Originally by: Cameron Freerunner I will take the opportunity to point out AGAIN that neither the theory nor the map were yours. The original thread predates yours by several days. It also made the point much more succinctly and with less swagger. Here's the original thread AGAIN. Give credit where it's due. And to be honest, that thread doesn't have a whole lot of accurate information. It seems agreed in that thread that Class 1 wormholes are the hardest and Class 6 are the easiest, which is actually completely backwards. But yes, that is where the wormhole map was originally linked, thank you. _________________

JanoMark ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:42:00 - [101] Bumped for great justice! Lots of useful info in the OP and it's a shame for it to reach the second page.
VB Sarge Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:30:00 - [102] To be even more completely honest, I had never read a thread on wormhole exploration before this one, and I had no clue where the map had come from. It was linked to me in corp chat and we started to pour over the details and probe out as many wormholes as possible. We didn't even start out trying to be front runners in the race of figuring out wormholes, and if we were first, or second, or whatever, I think we still did pretty damn good, and like I said earlier, a massive part of that is the Eve community and the general participation given. Things just sort of started to come together, and I didn't notice a thread on the Eve-O forums about it, so, I made one. I've made some edits to the front post based on updated information. -Sarge
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:05:00 - [103] 7, 8 and 9 can lead from K-space to K-space as well. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Hostage Ballinger	Posted - 2009.04.11 08:00:00 - [104] Found a rather unexpected WH suprise today. 0.8 system K162 WH. Jumped and landed in 0.0 Goonswarm Sov with an Outpost @ 5.0 AU. Needless to say I left fast. I was not aware that some WH don't lead to W-Space. Anyone else had a similar experience.
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2009.04.11 11:14:00 - [105] Originally by: Hostage Ballinger ...I was not aware that some WH don't lead to W-Space. Anyone else had a similar experience. Yes, some wormholes are simply shortcuts within K-space. I also had 2 or 3 of this kind like - Heimatar low sec <-> Metropolis high sec or Derelik low sec <-> Heimatar high sec. Well, 0.8 <-> 0.0 seems to be a very long jump, probably rare.
Mayobe Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.06.06 11:33:00 - [106] It's so funny watching all these people give such complex theories about how these things work. Especially when they then cite evidence that they don't even have.
Ta'jek Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.06 13:26:00 - [107] you can also find high sec shortcuts... never to where I want to go but they are there
Ashmira Wintereyes Caldari Free Spirits	Posted - 2009.06.08 15:54:00 - [108] Although a portion of information on this thread's been outdated i have a few questions on my own concerning the wormholes Decyphering part. Being a pretty active explorer the passed 2 months (i've always been explorer, but had a break of a year and got back 2 months ago) i still havent found answers to some of my thoughts. Wormhole space has been announced as 3 times bigger then K-space, still i find about 12 different wormholes, all with the same content (i even found the same class 1 for the 2nd time with the awesome core gravity site worth a ****load of isk with the same magneto site with the same can's and shipwreck) so, 1) Does every W-space have it's own grid of solar systems it can spawn in? meaning if i move to another region i get 'new' w-spaces to explore. 2) Any idea on how often a dangerous unknown space spawns in a region? since patch 1.2.2 i hardly found any dangerous wormholes but could be shear coincidental. 3) radar/magento sites, is their content fixed for in which system they spawn. To clarify question 3, say i find a class 1 W-space j131234, i scan it down and find 9 combat sites, 3 gravity, 1 ladar and a magneto site. I clear the magneto site which yields part X & Y and the site despawns. 3 weeks later a new wormhole forms in a solar system nearby and also carries the name j131234 which supprisignly is also a class 1 W-space. I scan and find again a magneto site in it, clear the site from spawns and loot the cans... will there be parts X & Y again, or could it be parts E & Y , or whatever other combination. If thats the case, the 'exploration' and 'discovery' will be soon out of the game as everything is known beforehand then.
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.06.08 18:18:00 - [109] When I click on the link for the map, I dont get a map of any kind.
Trustworthy Joe	Posted - 2009.06.09 04:43:00 - [110] Originally by: Milla Jovo When I click on the link for the map, I dont get a map of any kind. the nag is cooler tbh _______________________ with a name as trustworthy as mine, i cant POSSIBLY be an alt Originally by: CCP Navigator I locked this thread BECAUSE OF FALCON

Calleb	Posted - 2009.06.09 07:41:00 - [111] OK - for me my thoughts are simply that - I do not have enough personal data to prove or disprove my theories - but they are not just random thaughts. I have tried to distill from other peoples posts relevant data which may be usefull. I beleive that each w-space system has a set number of encounters within it. so for example j130000 will have 9 sites - but by my understanding there is a small chance to have a severely difficult encounter in a class 1 system - so this implies to me that all encounter types that spawn within a system are random. Also for me JanoMark makes some good points (through the waffle lol) about wormholes. My feeling is like his that when you find a wormhole the exit location is unknown. My feeling is though that not every k-space system has wormhole potential even though every w-space sytem does. I seem to find wormholes in the same few systems near me but the locations they lead to are RANDOM. My main thought for the random link is that the exit end of a wormhole is always K-162 - If the wormhole link was known before you found it you may as well give both ends the same name. I also think that this accounts for the delay when you are the first person trying to navigate a wormhole. I also however beleive that maintaining a presence in w-space affects the random element in some way - which I havn't yet figured out. But if players are managing to find the same systems over and over again (especially with a POS in it) there must be some sort of connecting element to make this possible. Anyhoo - just my random waffle - but I hope it adds to peeps being able to figure out how this works.


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