Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 .. 23 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Captain ULTIMATE
Amarr Maximum Pulsing Golden Laser Geddongs with Lasers
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 02:53:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul Uh.... I would hardly call what happened ôidentity theftö or ôstolenö in the way I think you mean. The BoB name was acquired completely within the scope of game mechanics. The idea that Goonswarm should have the BoB name ôrightfully reversedö is ridiculous and runs counter to everything that makes Eve great.
Previously Eve online GM's have renamed impersonating corporations and individuals and have returned "stolen names" to the original owners. The whole theft of identity theme that came to the fore in this blocking of alliance recreation by sitting on an alt corp is new ground and its never been allowed to stand before. I'd contend that Eve is not "made great" by allowing cheap director emocides to risk the identity of groups of thousands of players with no mechanism to rectify the situation.
Eve is about space opera, politics and clash of arms. Cheesy creation of alt-corps to exploit a weakness in the naming mechanic system is hardly adding much to Eve's mystique.
Goons claiming to have defeated BOB because they cheated and stole their name is not exactly good copy.
Quote: The rest of your answers sort of hinge on this idea of something has been æstolenÆ so IÆll leave one quick comment. Hargooth or whoever it was, did not get forced into anything. He chose to disband BoB. While one may disagree with the ease in which he did this, itÆs not stealing.
You and I and 99.9% of the rest of the server will never know precisely what happened there. We can guess. We can make assumptions, but we'll never know. But the "stealing of identity" is the creation of an alt corp to block the recreation of an established alliance name. It was obvious what was being done and it should have been rectified by the GMs.
Quote: Adding safeguards in the future to the game so that this is harder to accomplish is fine. But whatÆs done is done, and done completely within the game. Not stealing, not theft, not cheating.
I'm afraid I disagree on the naming issue. I consider it an exploit of the naming mechanism in game. Certainly there used to be an explicit eula term that made it against the rules to impersonate other players and organizations. I am also informed that there has been a prior case of identity theft in a similar manner (alliance disbanded due to non payment of fees and recreated by an enemy) that was resolved by renaming the offending parties alliance.
Quote: Sure thing, the reason I asked was I was curious as to your stance on this issue as a CSM representative. I guess that would seem pretty obvious now, so IÆm going assume youÆre in favour of the choice made by CCP
Well as I've said elsewhere I think CCP have not done the correct thing here (which would have been to rename the band of brothers alt corp and allow BOB to recreate their alliance with the correct name.) This would have put the matter to bed months ago and would have avoided all the complication over a sov holding entity being renamed which we now have.
On balance though I think its still a fair compromise (although not one to really satisfy anyone).
But what was really needed was an early decisive resolution that saw Band of Brothers name returned and the past precedent against identity theft upheld and restated.
Look at the reason alliance names have been reclaimed in the past. Now look at the reason Kenzoku was renamed, with the proper timeline of events and facts. Now look dumb.
|
Da Maddness
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 02:58:00 -
[542]
Edited by: Da Maddness on 25/03/2009 02:59:44 As I have asked in another thread which I assume will be flooded with trolls or deleted, I'm curious as to why KenZoku petitioned to have their name changed back in the first place and also why are they defending their new name so much?
After all, the alliance was built on the foundation of the people, not the name....or so I am told.
|
teji
Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 02:59:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Goons claiming to have defeated BOB because they cheated and stole their name is not exactly good copy.
You can't steal what is rightfully yours. An executor of the alliance graciously gave the alliance to goons for their outstanding courteousness. I am not sure where this stealing and cheating rumor started as CCP themselves said that it was fair play. But don't let that stop from typing walls of text.
|
Retepp Nedsmul
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:00:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul N.B. *Once again removed for space sake*
Previously Eve online GM's have renamed impersonating corporations and individuals and have returned "stolen names" to the original owners. The whole theft of identity theme that came to the fore in this blocking of alliance recreation by sitting on an alt corp is new ground and its never been allowed to stand before. I'd contend that Eve is not "made great" by allowing cheap director emocides to risk the identity of groups of thousands of players with no mechanism to rectify the situation.
Well obviously I was referring to the freedom players have when dealing with each other in eve, not one Director emocide. But I hardly think the Band of Brothers identity is tied to a name. The Ex-BoB players define their identity by their many actions in Eve, the name doesnÆt mean much to them by their own admission. The Goons took it fair and square, emocide or not. It now belongs to them to do with as they see fit. If Ex-Bob wants it back, theyÆre gonna have to get REALLY creative.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Eve is about space opera, politics and clash of arms. Cheesy creation of alt-corps to exploit a weakness in the naming mechanic system is hardly adding much to Eve's mystique.
I hardly call the inability to create to corps with the same name a weakness in the naming mechanic. And give the new BoB a chance, maybe the new BoB will eventually add to the mystique of Eve.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You and I and 99.9% of the rest of the server will never know precisely what happened there. We can guess. We can make assumptions, but we'll never know. But the "stealing of identity" is the creation of an alt corp to block the recreation of an established alliance name. It was obvious what was being done and it should have been rectified by the GMs.
Well if youÆre suggesting that Hargooth (or whoever) was forced in some manner, thatÆs pretty ridiculous statement to make without evidence. I could make a claim that YOUÆRE A CCP EMPLOYEE or something suitably ridiculous without evidence. But both are meaningless and are just cluttering up the argument. And BoB was not an established alliance name when the Goons took it. Emocide man pressed the big red button. Solve the ease of which he did that. Not the result of it. Originally by: Jade Constantine Well as I've said elsewhere I think CCP have not done the correct thing here (which would have been to rename the band of brothers alt corp and allow BOB to recreate their alliance with the correct name.) This would have put the matter to bed months ago and would have avoided all the complication over a sov holding entity being renamed which we now have. On balance though I think its still a fair compromise (although not one to really satisfy anyone). But what was really needed was an early decisive resolution that saw Band of Brothers name returned and the past precedent against identity theft upheld and restated.
Good to know, thanks.
|
Yarik Mendel
Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:10:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Jade Constantine You and I and 99.9% of the rest of the server will never know precisely what happened there. We can guess.
Or you can shut up, and we can ask CCP to clear the confusion.
Real easy.
|
Joakim Saxon
Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:15:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Previously Eve online GM's have renamed impersonating corporations and individuals and have returned "stolen names" to the original owners.
[citation needed]
|
George Clinton
Minmatar Mothership Connection Inc. GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:17:00 -
[547]
identity theft lmbo
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:26:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Yarik Mendel
Originally by: Jade Constantine You and I and 99.9% of the rest of the server will never know precisely what happened there. We can guess.
Or you can shut up, and we can ask CCP to clear the confusion.
Real easy.
They never will because they aren't going to discuss a players circumstances with the general Eve public (and nor should they.) Hence any comment on the Haargoth affair is simply speculation at best. We will never know precisely what happened there.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
Jack Gates
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:32:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/03/2009 01:00:30
Originally by: Palmer Eldritch Just to clarify for those who don't know, KenZoku wasn't called KenZoku because of any identity theft.
It was created, and named, in August 2008, while the original Band of Brothers was still in existence.
When Band of Brothers was disbanded by one of its directors, corporations which had been members of BoB chose to join KenZoku of their own free will, instead of making a new alliance (for example, an alliance named Band of Brothers Reloaded).
They did this because getting straight into a pre-existing alliance gave them an advantage - a legal, within the rules advantage - in the ongoing war in 0.0 space.
I imagine they did it because the initial petition didn't yield the expected result of having the goon alt corp "band of brothers" renamed to "evecorp 239013909" thereby allowing the BOB leaders to establish another band of brothers alliance immediately.
The fact that this was the established protocol in cases of identity theft following alliance disbands previously appears not to have entered into the calculations this time.
Now admittedly BOB themselves muddied the waters by moving to the kenzoku identity but since CCP weren't exactly going to freeze the server and hold the ongoing war while the gms were investigating the petition you can understand why they did it.
The current compromise solution is something that won't likely please anyone 100%. Band of Brothers corporation in Goonswarm should be renamed. BOB should be offered their original alliance name back. GM's should offer them the straight choice between continuing with the current partial sovereignty holding Band of Brothers reloaded or a clean start with the original Band of Brothers name once its removed from goon blocking.
Whether this can possibly happen admist all the shouting tears and threadnaughting is unlikely.
You roleplay a space hooker.
|
Jack Gates
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:35:00 -
[550]
Jade Constantine: all man, all space hooker
|
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:36:00 -
[551]
Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul Well if youÆre suggesting that Hargooth (or whoever) was forced in some manner, thatÆs pretty ridiculous statement to make without evidence.
Who knows really? Maybe he sold the account? Maybe a "friend" accessed his computer? Maybe he got bought off with aluminium-stocks or something? Nobody knows and its all irrelevant anyways. What happened with the disband happened and CCP decided to let it stand.
But what should not have stood was the alt corp "band of brothers" created with the express intention of blocking the recreation of the band of brothers alliance in a clear exploit of the naming system.
Its clear we'll disagree on this point and I hope you can appreciate that strong feelings exist on either side of the discussion.
I (and many others who play this game) feel that the identity of our corporations and alliances is something that is sacrosanct to our continued subscription and participation. From the moment we attend real world meets and build friendships, print tee-shirts, commission artwork and build web-infrastructure around our corp and alliance identities we have placed a claim of ownership over the names we've chosen to build.
I contend that identity should not be a spoil of war in Eve Online. When Band of Brothers dies it should be because they have been defeated in war and decide to surrender and disband of their own choice.
I certainly would fight/petition/argue and debate most strongly to have "The Star Fraction" name returned to my alliance if it was ever stolen in a similar identity theft.
CCP do need to consider this matter very carefully in the future because as things stand they have left a nasty metagaming exploit open that endangers much of the alliance identity building game they have previously traded on.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
Retepp Nedsmul
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 03:50:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul Well if youÆre suggesting that Hargooth (or whoever) was forced in some manner, thatÆs pretty ridiculous statement to make without evidence.
Who knows really? Maybe he sold the account? Maybe a "friend" accessed his computer? Maybe he got bought off with aluminium-stocks or something? Nobody knows and its all irrelevant anyways.
Yes, we don't "know" but those maybes are very irresponsible. as you've got nothing to base them on. While we do have something to base the current theory on. You really shouldn't throw trash out there like that.
Otherwise yeah it's clear we disagree, and I can appreciate strong feelings, but just as you view your name as sacrosanct, know that I and many others view our freedom in Eve as sacrosanct. In the end, you were elected to represent what you feel is best I guess.
Just remember to protect your own corporation from Emo Directors. Whatever that share stuff that was mentioned, I don't really know much about that.
|
spinarax
Caldari Method of Destruction Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:00:00 -
[553]
Edited by: spinarax on 25/03/2009 04:02:01
Originally by: Jade Constantine
But what should not have stood was the alt corp "band of brothers" created with the express intention of blocking the recreation of the band of brothers alliance in a clear exploit of the naming system.
I named my ships xxxx`s ship to mislead ppl, is that an exploit? And what about all those corp/alliance names with a dot"." at the end? there`s no copyright law on player created names.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Its clear we'll disagree on this point and I hope you can appreciate that strong feelings exist on either side of the discussion.
Apparently, you don't appreciate it enough
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I (and many others who play this game) feel that the identity of our corporations and alliances is something that is sacrosanct to our continued subscription and participation. From the moment we attend real world meets and build friendships, print tee-shirts, commission artwork and build web-infrastructure around our corp and alliance identities we have placed a claim of ownership over the names we've chosen to build.
And all that were destroyed by a single director and goonies... booowhoooo
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I contend that identity should not be a spoil of war in Eve Online. When Band of Brothers dies it should be because they have been defeated in war and decide to surrender and disband of their own choice.
I think everybody can agree that the BOB alliance itself is pretty much defeated now, GBC is still there though
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I certainly would fight/petition/argue and debate most strongly to have "The Star Fraction" name returned to my alliance if it was ever stolen in a similar identity theft.
And I doubt you would get it
Originally by: Jade Constantine
CCP do need to consider this matter very carefully in the future because as things stand they have left a nasty metagaming exploit open that endangers much of the alliance identity building game they have previously traded on.
Metagaming exploits? lolwut. If CCP does deem corporate espionage as an exploit, they have rollback all the way to back GHSC...
|
ThorTheGreat
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:02:00 -
[554]
A quick newsflash for the stupid in this thread... CCP owns everything in Eve including the corporation and alliance names. You agree to it every time you sign on. The only people who can have "identities stolen" in this case is CCP. Sorry to burst your usual long winded and ignorant bubbles.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:04:00 -
[555]
Originally by: spinarax
I named my ships xxxx`s ship to mislead ppl, is that an exploit? And what about all those corp/alliance names with a dot"." at the end? there`s no copyright law on player created names.
Funnily enough there used to be. And of course you'll get a warning if you rename your ship certain things.
Quote: metagaming exploits? lolwut. If CCP does deem corporate espionage as an exploit, they have rollback all the way to back GHSC...
GHSC took their money not their name.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
OldPueblo
Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:29:00 -
[556]
Oh hey here's a crazy idea, let's just ask Har since he's in our alliance now and all. Then we shall know the answer to the mystery that is no mystery at all.
|
Gail Sohmbadi
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:36:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Who knows really? Maybe he sold the account? Maybe a "friend" accessed his computer? Maybe he got bought off with aluminium-stocks or something? Nobody knows and its all irrelevant anyways.
This is why you should never again hold a position that represents the views of others.
Haargoth knows. CCP knows. BoB knows. Goons know. Pubbies know. Anyone who has followed the events of early February knows that Haargoth willfully disbanded the alliance within legitimate game mechanics. Your aversion of the facts in order to sound *cough* knowledgeable about the subject merely cloud the facts, and cast doubt on your abilities to speak truthfully. They also add undue confusion to a simple matter.
Had anything like you suggest happened, CCP would have reversed the disbanding immediately, and banned those involved.
It is also extremely relevant to the discussion at hand, despite your feeble attempts to direct the focus of discussion elsewhere. You can't claim it's irrelevant in this post, but then cry "exploit" in the next sentence, attempting to justify the current Alliance renaming fiasco.
But please, keep posting, and contradicting your own arguments in this thread. Anyone capable of rational thought will quickly see that your "arguments" fall apart at the first test of logic or constancy.
|
Morning Mist
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:38:00 -
[558]
Just for everyone in here not associated with any of the large powerblocks and is voting during the CSM elections: Jade thinks it's ok that BoB got the rules bent for them and their name changed free of charge with none of the negative consequences. Remember that during the voting period.
|
Da Maddness
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:39:00 -
[559]
Question to the people who has said things along the lines of "It's only a name change, it's not that big of an issue" I ask a simple question. Why not have the name changed back to appease the masses? After all, it's only a name change and not that big of an issue.
Sure you guys may have websites with the BoB logo and T-Shirts saying "We once owned Delve now all I have is this shirt" what CCP didn't force you to do that. You guys would have done that on your own back. Get with the times and jazz things up a little, try the new name that you choose. See what funky logos you can make and maybe you can style some wicked new t-shirt that'll make you look that little bit for stylish.
I don't see why CCP should have changed your alliance name because you guys have a heap of spare shirts (which could now be sold as collectors items!) and are to lazy to design a new alliance logo. If there is a reason behind how the name change effected your corp then I'm all ears.
|
Gail Sohmbadi
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:41:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Gail Sohmbadi on 25/03/2009 04:41:19
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Heh, you do realize there is a pretty healthy "anti-goon" vote out there to be harnessed right
This is the sort of statement that can (and should) come back to foil your chances for CSM candidacy. If you thought there were an "anti-space-prostitute" vote out there to be harnessed, you would most likely turn in your pals at LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS in your very next post.
|
|
Sugar Ray
Caldari Quam Singulari PuPPet MasTers
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:41:00 -
[561]
Ahhhhh poor Goonies
|
Gail Sohmbadi
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:46:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: spinarax
there`s no copyright law on player created names.
Funnily enough there used to be.
Please show us a single recorded case of copyright successfully being extended to cover the name of a player in a game, oh wise & truthful space prostitute?
Just link one judicial verdict, since you claim there is such a thing. I mean, you would never claim something to win an argument that you didn't actually know to be true, would you?
|
Petar Quaresma
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:48:00 -
[563]
One thing the less intelligent members of the forums (i.e. Jade) seem to miss (despite feverishly supporting the "sandbox" concept of Eve like god damned zealots) is that most wars are total wars. The point of these wars is to totally and completely destroy your enemy. If given the chance, BoB would have sent us to empire, camped us in, stolen our assets and continued to call some of our homes to harass us. That's Eve Online.
BoB lost their sovereignty and name not because of a hack or exploit but because they were massively incompetent in how they handled roles in game. They were massively incompetent in how they handled assets in game. Yea, they were rich. Yea, they had players that were **** socking, all or nothing suppporters of their pubbie cause. They were also overly trusting of their members; largely inept metagamers; incompetent tacticians (lol medium armor reppers) and all around bad posters.
So, we caught a break because of their massive stupidity (this is a very critical point because the Band of Brothers alliance was poorly run) they lost their name and assets. We took the name, legitimately, and we took their assets, again, legitimately. We then took their space, legitimately.
So now, despite everyone agreeing that Eve is about total wars where the only meaningful conclusion is the complete destruction of your enemy, we want to crap all over that idea and allow KenGoku the privilege of reclaiming some of their namesake and identity with no penalties at all (something no one else is allowed to do) all because we gee golly feel bad for them GOSH DARNIT!
Do you pay back every pilot you kill in game because you destroyed everything they own? No, you laugh about it. You revel in it. Do you feel that someone should get back items they willingly gave to you in a scam? No, you don't. They were stupid and they got burned. In the future, they will wise up or they will lose their items again. There is no justification for receiving special benefits here and since this is a total war, their opponents shouldn't tolerate third parties at CCP giving them pity handouts unjustified by the rules of the game.
|
DeBleu14
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 04:58:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Jack Gates Jade Constantine: all man, all space hooker
oh god why did I click that link
|
ThorTheGreat
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:12:00 -
[565]
Originally by: DeBleu14
Originally by: Jack Gates Jade Constantine: all man, all space hooker
oh god why did I click that link
What's wrong? It's where politics and pleasure meet!!! The hours are as whim dictates, the service as one's heart does bid, the rewards as rich as risk may find when staked in peril in the game of love and fine desire.
|
Gail Sohmbadi
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:14:00 -
[566]
Originally by: Petar Quaresma One thing the less intelligent members of the forums (i.e. Jade) seem to miss (despite feverishly supporting the "sandbox" concept of Eve like god damned zealots) is that most wars are total wars. The point of these wars is to totally and completely destroy your enemy. If given the chance, BoB would have sent us to empire, camped us in, stolen our assets and continued to call some of our homes to harass us. That's Eve Online.
BoB lost their sovereignty and name not because of a hack or exploit but because they were massively incompetent in how they handled roles in game. They were massively incompetent in how they handled assets in game. Yea, they were rich. Yea, they had players that were **** socking, all or nothing suppporters of their pubbie cause. They were also overly trusting of their members; largely inept metagamers; incompetent tacticians (lol medium armor reppers) and all around bad posters.
So, we caught a break because of their massive stupidity (this is a very critical point because the Band of Brothers alliance was poorly run) they lost their name and assets. We took the name, legitimately, and we took their assets, again, legitimately. We then took their space, legitimately.
So now, despite everyone agreeing that Eve is about total wars where the only meaningful conclusion is the complete destruction of your enemy, we want to crap all over that idea and allow KenGoku the privilege of reclaiming some of their namesake and identity with no penalties at all (something no one else is allowed to do) all because we gee golly feel bad for them GOSH DARNIT!
Do you pay back every pilot you kill in game because you destroyed everything they own? No, you laugh about it. You revel in it. Do you feel that someone should get back items they willingly gave to you in a scam? No, you don't. They were stupid and they got burned. In the future, they will wise up or they will lose their items again. There is no justification for receiving special benefits here and since this is a total war, their opponents shouldn't tolerate third parties at CCP giving them pity handouts unjustified by the rules of the game.
qtiyd
|
DeBleu14
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:24:00 -
[567]
*welcomes new patron to Maison*
*pleasures pubbie*
*puts words between asterisks to make a pretend action in a video game*
|
Gail Sohmbadi
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:26:00 -
[568]
Originally by: DeBleu14 *welcomes new patron to Maison*
*pleasures pubbie*
*puts words between asterisks to make a pretend action in a video game*
*gets on eve voice and reveals that JC is a MAN!*
|
Das Brute
Minmatar Celestial Pillagers
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:34:00 -
[569]
I had some veldspar stolen from me, can I get some veldspar reloaded in return? Whats the going refine rate for that? Thanks in advance.
|
Chadley Bradley
Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 05:34:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Petar Quaresma We took the name, legitimately
As a matter of consequence, what is GoonSwarm planning to do with the corporation, Band of Brothers? I mean, I dunno why they didn't like the name--I think it's pretty cool. Reminds me of the HBO series... Ooo! Why don't you all petition to rename GoonSwarm to Band of Brothers! I mean, since you guys own the name and all, they should let you, right?
-Chadley |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 .. 23 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |