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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 25/03/2009 10:30:14
Well if you have not herd yet ECM will get nerfed.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1032703
If you read the post the falcon will lose its range bonus and signal distortion amplifiers are losing there bonus to increasing the jam strength to a range bonus. I guess the question is will it be a boost to the optimal of falloff?
If they are making one into a more sniper ecm ship I wish they would make a warp to with in 150 km then so we can be a proper snipping ecm ship. Prolli wont happen but I guess I can wish.
ATM my falcon is set up as such
high
1x cov ops cloak II
3x sm sb II
med
all racial jamers of assorted flava
lows
3x Signal Distortion Amplifier II
riggs
2x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
I get a 10.5 jam strength at 120km optimal. I cant warp to an object past 100km with out making a bookmark any way so whats the point to learning long range jamming. Hence the idea of giving us a warp to object at 150km. Sure jamming is chanced based so intern i put two racial jammers on a single target to keep it perma jammed. I can jam 3 targets threw ought the entire fight.
Sure people my hate it but you wouldnt be complaining if you had one or two of said falcons on your side would you?
A ecm ship a brawler are you serious?
What the heck are we suppose to do with a range of 105 km with heavy missiles on a long range ecm sniping ship?
As well as a drone bay seriously? CCP?
Caldari are suppose to be long range and fight at long ranges so you are taking away the range bonus to ECM?
Seriously CCP? Do you even play you own game?
Ok I'm gunna breath now........... Ok I'm done.... For now.
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Mickey Simon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:29:00 -
[2]
That's a sweet setup, apart from the fact you can't get 3 rigs on a T2 ship.
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:30:00 -
[3]
my bad. i was on a role with my rant.
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TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:30:00 -
[4]
Hah.
That is all.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:32:00 -
[5]
minmatar has artillery pancake on it's head.
your argument is invalid.
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:40:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
minmatar has artillery pancake on it's head.
your argument is invalid.
Wine about that not the falcon. I'm sure you could 2 volley a falcon with a artillery snip BS no problem just need some sensor boosters. Plus falcons have more dangerious ships to jam like amarr ships...lol
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: TimMc
Hah.
That is all.
Reply of the year right here. What did you hahing at exactly?
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:04:00 -
[8]
If CCP dose nerf the falcon the way the intend to do it i will lean long range jamming to 5, still use 3x Signal Distortion Amplifier II, and 2x Particle Dispersion Projector I(20% increase to ecm optimal), sit at 120km and jam people to oblivion all while orbiting the fight at 250 km so turrets will still have a hard time hitting me. Since I'm normally in a balanced fleet people will be tracking disrupted any way.
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GTC seller72
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
If CCP dose nerf the falcon the way the intend to do it i will lean long range jamming to 5, still use 3x Signal Distortion Amplifier II, and 2x Particle Dispersion Projector I(20% increase to ecm optimal), sit at 120km and jam people to oblivion all while orbiting the fight at 250 km so turrets will still have a hard time hitting me. Since I'm normally in a balanced fleet people will be tracking disrupted any way.
How do you jam at 120km and prbit at 250km at the same time?...
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Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:12:00 -
[10]
I personally will love to see the "omg nerf Falcons ffs" threads after the Falcon nerf.
Hahahaha.
- ECM re-designed. Check.
- Falcons nerfed. Check.
- ECCM works. Check.
What now, tank&gank lovers? 
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: GTC seller72
Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
If CCP dose nerf the falcon the way the intend to do it i will lean long range jamming to 5, still use 3x Signal Distortion Amplifier II, and 2x Particle Dispersion Projector I(20% increase to ecm optimal), sit at 120km and jam people to oblivion all while orbiting the fight at 120 km so turrets will still have a hard time hitting me. Since I'm normally in a balanced fleet people will be tracking disrupted any way.
How do you jam at 120km and prbit at 250km at the same time?...
Fixed for ya.
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xXxSatsujinxXx
Ascent of Ages
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
MY FALCON WAS EQUIPPED WITH THE FOLLOWING
Ever heard of stacking? Those rigs are pretty much wasted. Also, with all that, you only get 10.5 strength? You sir, are doing it very, very wrong.
As for the warp to 150km... there is a reason true sniper engagements happen at 150km+, difficulty of warp-ins being a bonus rather than a hinderance. If you could warp in at 150km, then people would just start using 200km range setups, just to **** people like you off.
With regards to the nerf... some interesting changes, i'm all for decreasing the potency of ECM (i'm saying that as a falcon pilot), though CCP seem to have confused the falcon for a rook... 
Seriously, why would you need the COMBAT recon with its higer resists etc AT RANGE? With its 105km(max skills) missiles, and 25m/bit super long range drone bay.... 
Its almost as though they're TRYING to create contradicting setups. Like giving a ship 1 bonus for rails and 1 for torps.
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:50:00 -
[13]
i realize they are stacking penalized.
How would you like me to get more then 10.5?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 25/03/2009 10:30:14
Well if you have not herd yet ECM will get nerfed.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1032703
If you read the post the falcon will lose its range bonus and signal distortion amplifiers are losing there bonus to increasing the jam strength to a range bonus. I guess the question is will it be a boost to the optimal of falloff?
If they are making one into a more sniper ecm ship I wish they would make a warp to with in 150 km then so we can be a proper snipping ecm ship. Prolli wont happen but I guess I can wish.
ATM my falcon is set up as such
high
1x cov ops cloak II
3x sm sb II
med
all racial jamers of assorted flava
lows
3x Signal Distortion Amplifier II
riggs
2x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
I get a 10.5 jam strength at 120km optimal. I cant warp to an object past 100km with out making a bookmark any way so whats the point to learning long range jamming. Hence the idea of giving us a warp to object at 150km. Sure jamming is chanced based so intern i put two racial jammers on a single target to keep it perma jammed. I can jam 3 targets threw ought the entire fight.
Sure people my hate it but you wouldnt be complaining if you had one or two of said falcons on your side would you?
A ecm ship a brawler are you serious?
What the heck are we suppose to do with a range of 105 km with heavy missiles on a long range ecm sniping ship?
As well as a drone bay seriously? CCP?
Caldari are suppose to be long range and fight at long ranges so you are taking away the range bonus to ECM?
Seriously CCP? Do you even play you own game?
Ok I'm gunna breath now........... Ok I'm done.... For now.
First off, you're confusing the rook with the falcon. Rook gets missiles, falcons get... well nothing new.
I'm somewhat disgusted by the figures you're providing. 5 stacking penalized modules to boost ecm strength and you amass... 10.5? That's barely decent for a blackbird, and as for 120km Long distance jamming ... leve one?
As for the close range brawler role, you should compare it to the other recons. with an optimal of 52km, it outranges the pilgrim by 40 km, an arazu by 7km and a rapier with 12km. So by outranging everyone else with the most powerful ewar there is, I would claim they're still long range by comparission. I'm not saying I love the changes, I'm still somewhat undecided, but, as far as close range cloakie brawlers go, I can't argue anything but falcons long range alignment.
Actually, falcons make for pretty boring gameplay. While I enjoy their existance the overuse that's been around lately makes "one or two falcons" more or less an essential counter for hostile falcons than an ace up your sleeve. From a game entertainment perspective it's great as a wildcard here and there but horrible when it turns into whoever brings most falcons and gets the first cycles in wins.
You're supposed to add ample dps and scare of inties with missiles and drones. A velocity bonus does not only add range. All you really care about is getting tacklers off before they get support onto your hiney, a couple of launchers, neuts and 5 warrior II's scare most inties off pretty quickly.
Did I miss anything?
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 935116
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:01:00 -
[15]
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
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putting the gist back into logistics |
GTC seller72
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
Using falloff when a effect is already chance based is just foolish, although this is yet another nice buff to pulse BS as yet another ship gets dragged down to within their reachable range, if not right at optimal with a single tracking comp....
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
Look at the popularity of sniper hacs.
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Warrio
Southern Cross Incorporated
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:22:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Warrio on 25/03/2009 12:23:05
Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx
Seriously, why would you need the COMBAT recon with its higer resists etc AT RANGE?
25m/bit super long range drone bay
contradicting setups.
Like giving a ship 1 bonus for rails and 1 for torps.
A split bonus ala the Typhoon or Rattlesnake is not contradictory, it's complementary since the ship needs both bonuses to utilise its potential. Contradictory would be giving a ship with all missile hardpoints a bonus to laser damage.
That aside the same question could be asked of the Apoc to the effect of "Why give a sniper BS a drone bay"!! Of course, this is because the Apoc can also be used as a close range 'brawler' using its range bonus to extend the range of MF crystals. As always in Eve, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
You may like to try skinning a cat using a rook with ECM and HAMs while sporting sensor damp drones.
sXe |
Valor Anselmo
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:25:00 -
[19]
Id just like to point out the topic should read "Falcon; an up close brawler"
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
Look at the popularity of sniper hacs.
you mean the ones with sensors like 13 ladar (muninn), 13 radar (zealot) and, granted, 18 gravi on the eagle?
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putting the gist back into logistics |
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
Look at the popularity of sniper hacs.
you mean the ones with sensors like 13 ladar (muninn), 13 radar (zealot) and, granted, 18 gravi on the eagle?
Yep you sure are gonna jam an entire gang before you pop. 
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GTC seller72
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
Look at the popularity of sniper hacs.
you mean the ones with sensors like 13 ladar (muninn), 13 radar (zealot) and, granted, 18 gravi on the eagle?
Yep you sure are gonna jam an entire gang before you pop.
Very true, especially considering that they have given the falcon extra str to jams if i read the dev blog correctly but are taking away the 20% str boost that SDA's give, so falcons will not have higher jam str than they do now, in fact it will be lower.
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:30:00 -
[23]
My bad. Forgot to add my skills to EFT. 10.5 is really sissy compared to 16
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
i dont see it... since when is 50-60km "short range brawler" - and that's only its optimal range.
i understand you're spoiled by 200+ km racial jamming, but chronotis used that term; so better digest his post twice if not more and get used to terms like falloff
Look at the popularity of sniper hacs.
you mean the ones with sensors like 13 ladar (muninn), 13 radar (zealot) and, granted, 18 gravi on the eagle?
Yep you sure are gonna jam an entire gang before you pop.
gotten used to jamming entire gangs all alone, have we...
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
gotten used to jamming entire gangs all alone, have we...
Yep i got that special falcon with 50 midslots.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
gotten used to jamming entire gangs all alone, have we...
Yep i got that special falcon with 50 midslots.
Ah, the secret special Caldari State Falcon that also comes with 6 free 200Km bookmarks around every celestial object?
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
gotten used to jamming entire gangs all alone, have we...
Yep i got that special falcon with 50 midslots.
Ah, the secret special Caldari State Falcon that also comes with 6 free 200Km bookmarks around every celestial object?
Yep it also has a 100% jamchance, destroys all ECCM modules on enemy ships and force them to jump into my perfectly set up gatecamp.
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Endel
Quam Singulari
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.03.25 14:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Valor Anselmo
Id just like to point out the topic should read "Falcon; an up close brawler"
Thank you! I knew something was bothering me! :)
I don't see why OP and the like are complaining.
First, rook. Missiles are for support damage while keeping yourself safe at range and disabling opponents. Drones are for those fast tacklers that come to disturb you.
Caldari is long range sniper race Isn't 100km long enough range for you?
I like. If I could web or paint people with my huginn from 100km, I'd be happy weasel!
Then, falcon. It can still cloak! Cloak and warp! But now (read: after change) it actually has to pick moments, just as any other recon does. And fit some other stuff in mids then all-out-ecm (buffer, mwd?)
Don't say I haven't flown falcons. I have. Of course I loved the 240km godly range. But I've been on the receiving end too, and I am happy with the upcoming changes.
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arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.03.25 15:21:00 -
[29]
the point is that a falcon can easily pick its targets, just like a arazu or a rapier you have significantly less dps than your normal recons, but the ability to pick targets with infinate easy means thats the payoff. a closerange brawler role makes sense for the falcon, it makes it less usefull in big fleets and still very effectivbe in small gangs qwithout being a be all end all
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.25 15:30:00 -
[30]
null Originally by: Endel
Originally by: Valor Anselmo
Id just like to point out the topic should read "Falcon; an up close brawler"
Thank you! I knew something was bothering me! :)
I don't see why OP and the like are complaining.
First, rook. Missiles are for support damage while keeping yourself safe at range and disabling opponents. Drones are for those fast tacklers that come to disturb you.
Caldari is long range sniper race Isn't 100km long enough range for you?
I like. If I could web or paint people with my huginn from 100km, I'd be happy weasel!
Then, falcon. It can still cloak! Cloak and warp! But now (read: after change) it actually has to pick moments, just as any other recon does. And fit some other stuff in mids then all-out-ecm (buffer, mwd?)
Don't say I haven't flown falcons. I have. Of course I loved the 240km godly range. But I've been on the receiving end too, and I am happy with the upcoming changes.
But, unlike all the other recons, it has 2 unbonused weapons, no secondary EW and no drones...
If CCP want to make it in to a "close range brawler" that's fine. Give it the tools.
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.25 15:36:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Childstar on 25/03/2009 15:42:53
Originally by: arbiter reborn
the point is that a falcon can easily pick its targets, just like a arazu or a rapier you have significantly less dps than your normal recons, but the ability to pick targets with infinate easy means thats the payoff. a closerange brawler role makes sense for the falcon, it makes it less usefull in big fleets and still very effectivbe in small gangs qwithout being a be all end all
Thats the paradox.
The other systems/recons range made them worthless in anything resembling a med sized gang, but ok in very small gangs and for ganking.
The falcons original range and str made it useable and reasonably effective in med sized gangs for jamming priority ships.
But if used in small gank gangs the target (that if they are honest would admit they were going to die anyway) gets jammed and dies, and then flies str8 to the forums with EMO posts about the falcon being overpowered and the bane of "good pvp" instead of just accepting the fact that they would have died anyway with or without being jammed..
And the result is that the falcons range gets nerfed making it as useless as the other recons at med sized gang combat and its already chance based jam str gets nerfed so it is also crap in small gank gangs.....
While the rook gets a double jam str nerf and a range reduction so at the range now normally used by long range jammers on TQ, it will be not only gimped in jam str but also jamming in falloff....
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Endel
Quam Singulari
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.03.25 16:28:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Malcanis
But, unlike all the other recons, it has 2 unbonused weapons, no secondary EW and no drones...
If CCP want to make it in to a "close range brawler" that's fine. Give it the tools.
That's the thing, they are (currently) planning to give it medium hybrid turret optimal range bonus and one more turret.
If ECM jammers optimal and falloff will be swapped, then you would get 50km+ optimal jam range with 100% strength (purely from recon V ).
50km is not that close, is it?
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.25 16:32:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Endel
Originally by: Malcanis
But, unlike all the other recons, it has 2 unbonused weapons, no secondary EW and no drones...
If CCP want to make it in to a "close range brawler" that's fine. Give it the tools.
That's the thing, they are (currently) planning to give it medium hybrid turret optimal range bonus and one more turret.
If ECM jammers optimal and falloff will be swapped, then you would get 50km+ optimal jam range with 100% strength (purely from recon V ).
50km is not that close, is it?
Mega Pulse II + scorch.
Yet another sideways buff to amarr close range BS.
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Endel
Quam Singulari
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.03.25 16:49:00 -
[34]
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Yes, lasers can hit and track good, that's another issue. Cruise missiles can also hit at that range. They do against all recons, not just the falcon-to-be.
I can also say here that the falcon-to-be would still be better then current rapier or lachesis. Webs don't disable guns, ECM does.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 16:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Endel
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Indeed the pile of useless ships needs to grow.
And yea this is my sig. |
GTC seller72
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Posted - 2009.03.25 16:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Endel
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Yes, lasers can hit and track good, that's another issue. Cruise missiles can also hit at that range. They do against all recons, not just the falcon-to-be.
I can also say here that the falcon-to-be would still be better then current rapier or lachesis. Webs don't disable guns, ECM does.
And will you add just how often those other recons are actually used in anything resembling med sized gang vs gang combat?.
I can tell you.......its hovers right around the 0 marker.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2009.03.25 17:14:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
I get a 10.5 jam strength at 120km optimal. I cant warp to an object past 100km with out making a bookmark any way so whats the point to learning long range jamming. Hence the idea of giving us a warp to object at 150km. Sure jamming is chanced based so intern i put two racial jammers on a single target to keep it perma jammed. I can jam 3 targets threw ought the entire fight.
You'll need a MWD so that leaves you with 6 jammers. 4 races. With each jammer you have (best case) a 50% chance (in realaity, it's lower) of jamming a BS/recon each cycle.
Congratulations....you have yourself a 150 million isk bait ship that can absorb 3500 hp.
Unless the falcon gets a significant speed an agilty bonus, you won't see them in fleets any more.
I say make falcons and ECM just like other e-war. Sadly, that won't happen.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2009.03.25 17:18:00 -
[38]
Edited by: GateScout on 25/03/2009 17:19:19
Originally by: Endel
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Yes, lasers can hit and track good, that's another issue. Cruise missiles can also hit at that range. They do against all recons, not just the falcon-to-be.
I can also say here that the falcon-to-be would still be better then current rapier or lachesis. Webs don't disable guns, ECM does.
You don't fly a falcon or a rook, do you? That comparison doesn't work so well.
I'm all for making the falcon and ECM more like other recons and e-war, but that would require making the falcon MUCH faster and more agile. ECM is still racially based and chance limited. Make ECM like a sensor disruptor (or something similar) and you're analogy will work better.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.25 17:29:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Endel
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Indeed the pile of useless ships needs to grow.
Yes there's nothing like making yet another ship useless to make all the currently useless ships exactly as useless as they were before.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2009.03.25 19:41:00 -
[40]
Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 19:46:52
Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 19:42:20
[Falcon, Close range brawler]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
Invulnerability Field II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender II
1.6kms (more then my plated arazu)
42k ehp (twice as much then my plated arazu)
51% chance to jam a BS overloaded with a racial with current strength, as they are gonna buff both base ecm module sensor strength AND falcon bonus it will probably get a bit higher. 75% if there are two ships that fit your racial jammers. It will negate more dps then my arazu thats certain.
about 100dps (my arazu has about 200dps)
55-60km operating range? (arazu 48km if it want to use its disruptor bonus)
100dps tank (my arazu only has buffer) In a gang that 100dps passive tank along with the buffer will be enough to handle sentry fire for quite some time.
Cap stable with MWD? No - neither is my arazu, but can trade tank or ewar for cap stability.
can downgrade to 4 jammers, but will then only have
28k ehp (still more then my arazu)
Probably not the best fit this, did it in a few minutes, but its way better ewar support for a gang the an arazu thats for sure. It lacks 100dps compared to arazu but its not that much in a gang.
Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.25 19:55:00 -
[41]
Originally by: General Coochie
[Falcon, Close range brawler]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
Invulnerability Field II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender II
1.6kms (more then my plated arazu)
42k ehp (twice as much then my plated arazu)
51% chance to jam a BS overloaded with a racial with current strength, as they are gonna buff both base ecm module sensor strength AND falcon bonus it will probably get a bit higher. 75% if there are two ships that fit your racial jammers. It will negate more dps then my arazu thats certain.
about 100dps (my arazu has about 200dps)
55-60km operating range? (arazu 48km if it want to use its disruptor bonus)
100dps tank (my arazu only has buffer) In a gang that 100dps passive tank along with the buffer will be enough to handle sentry fire for quite some time.
Cap stable with MWD? No - neither is my arazu, but can trade tank or ewar for cap stability.
can downgrade to 4 jammers, but will then only have
28k ehp (still more then my arazu)
Probably not the best fit this, did it in a few minutes, but its way better ewar support for a gang the an arazu thats for sure. It lacks 100dps compared to arazu but its not that much in a gang.
1. Do you fly your arazu or any other recon in gang combat now, and i do not mean ganking noobs and solo ships i mean gang combat with other gangs or ressonable numbers?.
2. Why only 3 ecm their are 4 races....
3. Why fly that failcon fit in gang combat after the nerf as a tanked dmg dealer or RR/dmg dealer will be much more useful, after all its not like you will need to worry about being jammed......
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2009.03.25 20:03:00 -
[42]
Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 20:05:59
Originally by: Childstar
1. Do you fly your arazu or any other recon in gang combat now, and i do not mean ganking noobs and solo ships i mean gang combat with other gangs or ressonable numbers?.
2. Why only 3 ecm their are 4 races....
3. Why fly that failcon fit in gang combat after the nerf as a tanked dmg dealer or RR/dmg dealer will be much more useful, after all its not like you will need to worry about being jammed......
1. No rather not cause they suck, especially the arazu.
2. A close range brawler needs tank more then ewar, I wish I could get 40k on my zu while being somewhat useful.
3. I totally agree and I could say the same for my arazu.
4! Thank you for helping getting my point across.
4 b. Still that falcon above would be MORE useful then the arazu. Something to think about?
Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
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stopdropandlol
Gallente
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 20:06:00 -
[43]
why dont we give emc scripts? longer range means less jam strength. more strength means closer range.
worked so well for sensor dampners
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2009.03.25 20:07:00 -
[44]
Edited by: maralt on 25/03/2009 20:08:40
Originally by: General Coochie
Originally by: Childstar
1. Do you fly your arazu or any other recon in gang combat now, and i do not mean ganking noobs and solo ships i mean gang combat with other gangs or ressonable numbers?.
2. Why only 3 ecm their are 4 races....
3. Why fly that failcon fit in gang combat after the nerf as a tanked dmg dealer or RR/dmg dealer will be much more useful, after all its not like you will need to worry about being jammed......
1. No rather not cause they suck, especially the arazu.
2. A close range brawler needs tank more then ewar!
3. I could say the same for my arazu.
Exactly...you can post all the theory and fits you like but anybody with a ounce of sense knows that a range nerf will kill it just like it did all the other recons, and unlike the other recons it does not have a gaurenteed effect that good tactics can be developed from for use in 2-3 man gank teams or solo work...so its dead.
You have no point to get accross unless its that ALL recons suck at gang combat apart from the falcon and now that is getting nerfed and it does not even have the solo gank abilities the others have.....
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stopdropandlol
Gallente
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 20:14:00 -
[45]
the nerf might make falcons specialized ewar ships like the rest of the recons. instead of now where you bring them to EVERY engagement period.
right now falcons and lag are the only thing that make me not engage when i normally would. they prevent pvp.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 20:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: stopdropandlol
the nerf might make falcons specialized station spinning ships like the rest of the recons.
Fixed.
And yea this is my sig. |
stopdropandlol
Gallente
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 20:32:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: stopdropandlol
the nerf might make falcons specialized station spinning ships like the rest of the recons.
Fixed.
some have their place but not when you could have brought a falcon or battleship instead.
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TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.25 20:48:00 -
[48]
New scorpion fit when this patch hits?
[Scorpion, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
100MN Afterburner II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 20:49:00 -
[49]
My nano was taken, now it's your falcons turn.
--
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Drummle
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Posted - 2009.03.25 21:48:00 -
[50]
Too bad if falcons become less win, Caldari would have to fly their HACs and HICs to be useful instead....kinda like the rest of us.
Or better yet just fly a logi, they aren't chance based and also effectively remove enemy dps. They are harder to kill too.
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Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 22:17:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Drummle
Too bad if falcons become less win, Caldari would have to fly their HACs and HICs to be useful instead....kinda like the rest of us.
Yea lets all get in the same ships to make it more fun.
And yea this is my sig. |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 22:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Endel
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Indeed the pile of useless ships needs to grow.
Or they might be useless simple by the fact that the Falcon did(and still does) the job better in 99% of the possible Combat situations.
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Melina Quaid
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Posted - 2009.03.25 22:43:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Melina Quaid on 25/03/2009 22:44:10
Actually, as I saw in CCP Chronotis' thread in the Game Dev forum :
Quote:
Falcon & Rook
The falcon is the "sniper" of the two ECM roles having less ECM strength and more ECM range.
Falcon:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
12.5% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal & Falloff Range per level
10% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Attribute Changes:
+1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint
The rook operates at shorter ranges, able to launch a stronger ECM attack and whilst having shorter ECM range can lay some real damage on its target gaining a heavy/heavy assault and standard missile velocity bonus in addition to a small drone bay for additional utility.
Rook:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% Bonus to Light & Heavy, Heavy assault Missile Velocity per level
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per Level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
5% bonus to heavy, heavy assualt and light missile kinetic damage per level
Attribute Changes:
+25m3 drone bay
+25mbit drone bandwidth
So...
Quote:
[Rook, ECM Change]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
Domination Warp Disruptor
Large Shield Extender II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Improved Cloaking Device II
Recon Probe Launcher I, Spook Scanner Probe I
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Just don't look at EFT's Recon Probe Launcher nor the Spook probe as they got changed in AP and I don't have the tiniest clue about what they got changed to.
+ 127 Defence efficiency, allowing you to tank drone fire while your HAMs melt them down.
+ SDA's get changed, but I assume not the rigs, so go for the rig and swap SDA's for PDU's to enhance your tank, cap, and make this setup over 11 minutes long cap stable.
+ Domi Disruptor allows you to get a point on your target while staying out of range of Heavy Neuts and staying well into ECM optimal range.
+ Can now field 5x Light Drones ( Moar ECM ? )
+ Enough tankability to allow you to warp off when it gets hot.
- Lack of a speed mod to dictate the tight range between 25-29km.
- Weak EM Shield resistance.
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Khandahar Bob
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Posted - 2009.03.25 22:49:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: stopdropandlol
the nerf might make falcons specialized station spinning ships like the rest of the recons.
Fixed.
Are you sure we're both playing the same EVE Online? Because In my time in Providence, Pure Blind and Curse, as well as various low-sec areas, I've seen plenty of Arazus, Pilgrims and Rapiers; granted, not as many as I've seen of Falcons -- but when every ship you see is the same, it's time to change it in some way.
This is more of a burf than a nerf; it's a change that will make people fly them differently, not a change that will cause them to instantly die should they undock.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.26 00:32:00 -
[55]
First things first, let me first state that I believe they are attempting to nerf the *RANGE* of the Falcon (and ECM in general). They simply don't want them sitting so far out of anyone else's range and jamming quite so effectively.
I think that ultimately they're looking for jamming strengths to remain about what they are now, with the 'close range' ships jamming even more powerfully than they currently do, and the long range ships jamming less powerfully than they do currently. I've asked for clarification on this in the feedback thread - we'll see what they say.
Let's first look at the way jamming strengths work right now:
3.6 Base strength
* (1 + .05 * 5) (Sig Dispersion)
* (1 + .20 * 5) (BS5/Recon5)
* (1 + .57 * 1) (3x SDA II)
>>> 3.6 * (1 + .05 * 5) * (1 + .20 * 5) * (1 + .57 * 1)
14.129999999999999
For the newly adjusted Falcon (they now want the falcon to be ranged, 7.5% optimal+falloff/level, 10% hybrid optimal, 15% bonus), we might see something like this (this keeps SDAs because I think the goal is for jamming strengths to remain roughly the same):
>>> 3.6 * (1 + .05 * 5) * (1 + .15 * 5) * (1 + .57 * 1)
12.36375
For the newly adjusted Scorpion/Rook (brawlers), we'll see something like this:
>>> 3.6 * (1 + .05 * 5) * (1 + .25 * 5) * (1 + .57 * 1)
15.896249999999998
Remember, I think they're going for the overall jamming strength itself to remain roughly the same... and there's plenty of evidence in the OP that shows this (such as them saying they want to boost either the module or the ship bonuses to make up for the lack of SDAs). I think they're telling us '15% bonus' and '20% bonus' for better/clearer communication.
BUT, even without SDAs, it looks like we're looking at this for strength (before they make any adjustments or move anything around):
3.6 Base strength
* (1 + .05 * 5) (Sig Dispersion)
* (1 + .25 * 5) (BS5/Recon5)
* (1 + .195) (2x rigs) [Optional]
>>> 3.6 * (1 + .05 * 5) * (1 + .25 * 5)
10.125
Rigged:
>>> 3.6 * (1 + .05 * 5) * (1 + .25 * 5) * (1 + .195)
12.099375
12 is the bare break even point for me being willing to fly the ship, and it just barely exceeds this. If they don't do anything to the ship or module strengths.... I might fly a Scorp. Maybe. :|
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.26 01:22:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 26/03/2009 01:22:26
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Meaningful contribution, etc
-Liang
Man, this thread just got un-funny 
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.03.26 01:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Esmenet
Yea lets all get in the same ships to make it more fun.
We're all flying ****ing falcons right now, so we'll actually see MORE diversity, not less.
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Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
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Posted - 2009.03.26 06:23:00 -
[58]
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 19:46:52
Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 19:42:20
[Falcon, Close range brawler]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
Invulnerability Field II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender II
1.6kms (more then my plated arazu)
42k ehp (twice as much then my plated arazu)
51% chance to jam a BS overloaded with a racial with current strength, as they are gonna buff both base ecm module sensor strength AND falcon bonus it will probably get a bit higher. 75% if there are two ships that fit your racial jammers. It will negate more dps then my arazu thats certain.
about 100dps (my arazu has about 200dps)
55-60km operating range? (arazu 48km if it want to use its disruptor bonus)
100dps tank (my arazu only has buffer) In a gang that 100dps passive tank along with the buffer will be enough to handle sentry fire for quite some time.
Cap stable with MWD? No - neither is my arazu, but can trade tank or ewar for cap stability.
can downgrade to 4 jammers, but will then only have
28k ehp (still more then my arazu)
Probably not the best fit this, did it in a few minutes, but its way better ewar support for a gang the an arazu thats for sure. It lacks 100dps compared to arazu but its not that much in a gang.
The Arazu is way better then this. Do you wanna know why? The Arazu's damps arent chance based. once you click on the damps they instently work until you turn them off or you die. The falcon will still work at long ranges.
From what Ive read they are going to make it more agile, possibly more turrets, a turret bonus, make there jammers more powerful and make signal distortion amplifiers add to range instead of increasing the jam strength.
Falcon
High
1x covops cloak II
3x 250 mm rail II
Med
An assortment of racial jammers
Lows
3x signal distortion amplifier II
Riggs
1x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
1x Particle Dispersion Projector I
With long distance jamming to 5 the distance might be close to 100km or so and the jam strength might not be as strong but it will still work. At least for me b/c jamming at 200km is just a lil nuts b/c i dont have the time to get the 200km book marks were ever I go nor a inty to get them for me.
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Foulque
|
Posted - 2009.03.26 06:28:00 -
[59]
Originally by: TimMc
Hah.
That is all.
________
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Endel
Quam Singulari
PuPPet MasTers
|
Posted - 2009.03.26 10:11:00 -
[60]
In fact I do fly falcon, not on this name, but I do. Not every day, but I know very well how it works.
You people seem to forget the recons are tactical support ships with cruiser hulls. They are not meant to work in every situation, especially the force recons. Thus the cloak- you watch and wait your moment.
Don't compare ECM to other types of EW. They are all different with pluses and minuses of their own.
Again, I love the falcon as it is now, able to totally change the tide of the battle, being virtually invulnerable if used correctly. But I also accept the changes, be it nerf or balancing.
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente
The Avalon Foundation
|
Posted - 2009.03.26 11:09:00 -
[61]
Originally by: General Coochie
[Falcon, Close range brawler
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
Invulnerability Field II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender II
if you are going to go for close in jamming then maybe multispecs will be better than missing a racial type.
so long as the falcon can warp cloaked, and have reasonable range to manouevre and jam you will still see a lot of them, it will still be much better than the arazu, pilgrim and rapier (sob sob) in a gang. the ability to lock down whole ganags from 151km abve a gate are going, and tbh thats no bad thing at all.
i've done plenty of jamming of people inside 40km you can't always control range as much as you would like.
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:29:00 -
[62]
Originally by: fivetide humidyear
if you are going to go for close in jamming then maybe multispecs will be better than missing a racial type.
so long as the falcon can warp cloaked, and have reasonable range to manouevre and jam you will still see a lot of them, it will still be much better than the arazu, pilgrim and rapier (sob sob) in a gang. the ability to lock down whole ganags from 151km abve a gate are going, and tbh thats no bad thing at all.
The pilgrim arazu and rapier are not used in gang v gang combat because they lack range.
At 151km you are way way into falloff reducing jam chance to 50% before you apply the jam str vs sig str modal.
Originally by: fivetide humidyear
i've done plenty of jamming of people inside 40km you can't always control range as much as you would like.
Nobody jam at 40km unless they absolutly have to and its against a single ship or so for a gank ect.
I find it highly amusing that one of the biggest whines was that falcons are always used at long ranges and now they are getting range nerfed the same ppl making those claims are saying how often they use the same falcon at close ranges effectivly...
The other recons are dead to gang combat because of their available range, this nerf just adds falcons to the scrap pile.
And its not like falcons have the ability to solo or run in 2-3 man gank teams like the other recons do, because after the range nerf they will STILL be chance based effects unlike the other recons effects that can be relied upon and planned for.
Boost ECCM instead, give it a secondary effect and make SDA modules effect damps, TD's, TP's ect and give the recons that use those other modules range modifyers. At the very least that will add new dimentions of detail'd and complicated tactical gang pvp, instead of putting another ship on the scrap heap and pushing the combat in game more towards total gank/tank fits instead.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2009.03.26 12:32:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
...
Nice post
...
I might fly a Scorp. Maybe. :|
-Liang
You have nice numbers in there. However as far as Scorpion goes it is currently one of the best ECM platforms for your regular everyday zerozero blob. In combination of lag, DD's and being primaried more often than not ECM platform just needs that hp buffer to do it's job out there. Forcing a battleship out of that role and forcing recon ship into that role just seems wrong.
Not to mention that their 'short range brawler' Scorpion concept seems as bright as Navy Ospresy does. Those are useful ships ... right ? Only problem is they are somewhat outclassed by caracal. They can ofc pull it off, but at that range your gang is better off with Torpedo Raven than with somewhat untanked (bcos of ECM + low number of lowslots) Scorpion.
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Chav Queen
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.26 13:01:00 -
[64]
I think alot of this nerf is aimed at the low sec pirates who have Falcons sitting outside sentry gun range at stations and gates.
It seems every pirate has a falcon close by these days, and if the nerf means they risk sentry gun fire im all for the change.
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gnshadowninja
Caldari
Baptism oF Fire
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:43:00 -
[65]
Actually if you don't plate or shield tank a falcon it can be insta popped by a sniper tempest, trust me i found that out the hard way.
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Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.26 15:40:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Esmenet on 26/03/2009 15:46:06
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Endel
And again I will bring the fact that other recons operate within the same, 50km range.
Indeed the pile of useless ships needs to grow.
Or they might be useless simple by the fact that the Falcon did(and still does) the job better in 99% of the possible Combat situations.
They are useless by the simple fact that their ewar capabilities are not worth it compared to a normal dps ship (hac or bs depending on gangtype), and that their range is too short to be a part of some types of gangs.
Thats why you never see the other recons outside of the "solo" gank and very small gank squads.
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
We're all flying ****ing falcons right now, so we'll actually see MORE diversity, not less.
Ecm ships + dps ships is more varied than 100% dps ships. But hey just keep whining, it sounds better when you dont base it on anything close to the pvp reality on tq.
And yea this is my sig. |
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