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Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Nerogk Shorn on 25/03/2009 19:20:38 I have recently had a problem with the armor of my typhoon. This typhoon was fit with 2 1600mm tungsten plates and 3 trimark rigs as well as an EANM II and DCU II. I got it in a trade with a corp mate who assured me after i lost it that it was not damaged. It never once appeared damaged while I was undocked and flying it around, meaning it showed absolutely full armor. While going out with a fleet, we engaged a larger fleet and eventually i was called primary. My shield disappeared rather quickly, but my armor on the other hand almost vanished instantly. I went down in seemingly 15-20 seconds, which i thought was strange as i should have had about 29000 armor. I looked on my lossmail, and would you look at that. I only took 15000 or so damage. This makes absolutely no sense as an unfitted typhoon with my skills has more hit points than that. The speed at which i went down made more sense. I petitioned it under reimbursements. I was going to die anyway, and i wasn't really looking to get my ship back, but i wanted some sort of explanation. Of course i got none, but the "our logs show nothing out of the ordinary" generic comment. At least they said "sorry" this time. Does anyone know what happened? Here is the killmail on my killboard. And here is the hard copy from my loss. 2009.03.24 20:54:00 Victim: Nerogk Shorn Corp: Royal Hiigaran Navy Alliance: SCUM. Faction: NONE Destroyed: Typhoon System: Heydieles Security: 0.3 Damage Taken: 15276 Involved parties: Name: Mallegant VanSaar Security: -9.6 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Navy Issue Weapon: Ogre II Damage Done: 2598 Name: Ulic Vos Security: -9.7 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: Megathron Damage Done: 2087 Name: Deja Thoris Security: -9.1 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Typhoon Weapon: Ogre II Damage Done: 2017 Name: El**** Ethenwe Security: -9.5 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Navy Issue Weapon: Megathron Navy Issue Damage Done: 1705 Name: Aftenbar Security: -9.9 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Damage Done: 1634 Name: BuckWyld (laid the final blow) Security: -8.5 Corp: The Athiest Syndicate Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Navy Issue Weapon: Ion Blaster Cannon II Damage Done: 1559 Name: M4N14c Security: -4.0 Corp: The Athiest Syndicate Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Hyperion Weapon: Hyperion Damage Done: 1137 Name: Sylem Security: -0.6 Corp: The Athiest Syndicate Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Armageddon Weapon: Ogre II Damage Done: 879 Name: Raiven Parker Security: -1.8 Corp: The Athiest Syndicate Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Raven Weapon: Inferno Javelin Torpedo Damage Done: 878 Name: Major Lagg Security: -9.4 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Tempest Fleet Issue Weapon: Tempest Fleet Issue Damage Done: 389 Name: Skar Rynn Security: -9.9 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Armageddon Weapon: 500W Infectious Power System Malfunction Damage Done: 213 Name: Thor75 Security: -9.3 Corp: Back to Yarrr Alliance: SCUM. Faction: NONE Ship: Dominix Weapon: Dominix Damage Done: 180 Name: Megasaxon Security: -8.6 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Raven Weapon: Ogre II Damage Done: 0 Name: Cerebella Security: -2.2 Corp: Center for Advanced Studies Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Apocalypse Weapon: Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I Damage Done: 0 Name: Ipsimus Security: -10.0 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: Warp Disruptor II Damage Done: 0 Name: FALLEN XCALIBER Secu
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:23:00 - [2] Apparently i filled the topic too much and it posted a 1 instead of my complete text. Edited it and now here is the rest of the killmail. Name: FALLEN XCALIBER Security: -0.8 Corp: Noir. Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Curse Weapon: Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I Damage Done: 0 Name: Megasaxon Security: -8.6 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Raven Weapon: Ogre II Damage Done: 0 Name: Ipsimus Security: -10.0 Corp: Invicta. Alliance: Advocated Destruction Faction: NONE Ship: Megathron Weapon: Warp Disruptor II Damage Done: 0 Name: Cerebella Security: -2.2 Corp: Center for Advanced Studies Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Ship: Apocalypse Weapon: Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I Damage Done: 0 Destroyed items: Nanite Repair Paste, Qty: 292 (Cargo) Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Qty: 2 Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo, Qty: 600 (Cargo) Republic Fleet EMP L, Qty: 91 Medium Capacitor Booster II Trimark Armor Pump I, Qty: 3 Siege Missile Launcher II, Qty: 4 Ballistic Control System II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Cap Booster 800 Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Hammerhead II, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay) Dropped items: Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II Gyrostabilizer II Republic Fleet EMP L, Qty: 46 Cap Booster 800, Qty: 9 (Cargo) 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I, Qty: 2 Ballistic Control System II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets F85 Peripheral Damage System I Hammerhead II, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Republic Fleet EMP L, Qty: 1226 (Cargo) Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo, Qty: 643 (Cargo) The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Ginako Southern Cross Empire	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:23:00 - [3] brb still scrolling...
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:25:00 - [4] Originally by: Ginako brb still scrolling... Yeah i know i got ganked by a lot of ships, but i still figured it may be necessary to post the whole mail... The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:25:00 - [5] ask for the petition to escalated to a higher gm and for an explanation as to it possibly being a bug that may effect other players in the future.
Tandori Tanaka Tanaka Stuff and Supplies	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:29:00 - [6] I bet the plates went offline when someone else piloted the ship instead of the original owner. You probably have passive modules hidden so you didnt noticed it ?
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII ask for the petition to escalated to a higher gm and for an explanation as to it possibly being a bug that may effect other players in the future. Do you think i should refile it under something else? Or continue with the reimbursement petition? The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:30:00 - [8] Edited by: Nerogk Shorn on 25/03/2009 19:31:10 Originally by: Tandori Tanaka I bet the plates went offline when someone else piloted the ship instead of the original owner. You probably have passive modules hidden so you didnt noticed it ? Nah, i got the ship unfitted with exception for the stuff in the cargo, the rigs, and the drone bay. I still should have taken more damage even if both the plates were offline, though you are right in that i had passive modules hidden. Edit: Meaning i fitted the sucker myself. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII ask for the petition to escalated to a higher gm and for an explanation as to it possibly being a bug that may effect other players in the future. Do you think i should refile it under something else? Or continue with the reimbursement petition? If your not bothered about getting it reimbursed try another category, you'd be doing the game a service by discovering another bug.
Agent Known	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:42:00 - [10] EFT shows 87k effective HP (mind this is all skills at V). Even unskilled it has 21k....
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Agent Known EFT shows 87k effective HP (mind this is all skills at V). Even unskilled it has 21k.... Yeah but effective HP is different, it means how much pure damage you need to take. In actuality you take less real damage cause of your resistances which are factored into your Effective HP. However, if you add up the shields, the armor and hull hit points, it should come out to around 40,000 with gang skills. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Agent Known	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: Agent Known EFT shows 87k effective HP (mind this is all skills at V). Even unskilled it has 21k.... Yeah but effective HP is different, it means how much pure damage you need to take. In actuality you take less real damage cause of your resistances which are factored into your Effective HP. However, if you add up the shields, the armor and hull hit points, it should come out to around 40,000 with gang skills. Excuse me, I didn't say...type that clearly. I meant 21k armor unskilled. My bad
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII ask for the petition to escalated to a higher gm and for an explanation as to it possibly being a bug that may effect other players in the future. Well I've done this now, so i will wait until i get a response. Has anyone else had a problem like this? I have recently seen some other suspect losses on our boards where ships have taken way less damage than they should have. I don't, however, know the stories behind those losses, so they could be normal issues with pre-damaged ships or jumping after taking damage only to be caught on the other side. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:01:00 - [14] Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 25/03/2009 20:02:23 Could there be an error of some kind in the damage_taken information on ship kills. I lost 5 identically fit ships below and the damage reported is different on each one. Could some specific type of damage be being excluded from the total? I noticed if you add up the individual reported damages it doesn't always equal the total damage listed. Perhaps this is just a latency, lag, packet-loss, or otherwise intarweb related issue? EFT shows I should have 19,771 EHP with this setup. 1 - 12401 dmg received 2 - 9587 dmg received 3 - 9594 dmg received 4 - 12675 dmg received 5 - 7321 dmg received
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:07:00 - [15] Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 25/03/2009 20:08:39 Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 25/03/2009 20:07:53 Couple of concord kills that i could not post to battle clinic, bu they also show weird damage taken discrepancies. I was flying the exact same fit as above. Quote: 2009.03.25 17:19:00 Victim: Ris Dnalor Corp: Sebiestor tribe Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Vexor System: Amarr Security: 1.0 Damage Taken: 2743 Involved parties: Name: Sarum Surveillance General Major / Sarum Family (laid the final blow) Damage Done: 2743 Name: CONCORD Police Captain / CONCORD Damage Done: 0 Destroyed items: Hobgoblin I, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay) Damage Control I Small Energy Neutralizer I Insulated Stabilizer Array I Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 196 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Ogre I, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay) Large Shield Extender I Heavy Electron Blaster I, Qty: 3 Dropped items: 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates I Insulated Stabilizer Array I Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 196 Warp Disruptor I Heavy Electron Blaster I Quote: 2009.03.22 23:52:00 Victim: Ris Dnalor Corp: Sebiestor tribe Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Vexor System: Amarr Security: 1.0 Damage Taken: 9151 Involved parties: Name: Sarum Surveillance Officer / Sarum Family (laid the final blow) Damage Done: 6478 Name: Amarr Sentry Gun / Amarr Navy Damage Done: 1988 Name: CONCORD Police Captain / CONCORD Damage Done: 685 Destroyed items: Damage Control I 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates I Insulated Stabilizer Array I Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 100 Ogre I, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay) Large Shield Extender I Heavy Electron Blaster I, Qty: 2 Dropped items: Small Energy Neutralizer I Insulated Stabilizer Array I Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 100 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor I Heavy Electron Blaster I, Qty: 2
konjev Minmatar Ray of Matar Assembly	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:50:00 - [16] clearly a fake, SCUM. doesn't undock
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:35:00 - [17] Edited by: Nerogk Shorn on 25/03/2009 21:41:52 Originally by: Ris Dnalor Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 25/03/2009 20:11:11 Could there be an error of some kind in the damage_taken information on ship kills. I lost 5 identically fit ships below and the damage reported is different on each one. Could some specific type of damage be being excluded from the total? I noticed if you add up the individual reported damages it doesn't always equal the total damage listed. Perhaps this is just a latency, lag, packet-loss, or otherwise intarweb related issue? EFT shows I should have 19,771 EHP with this setup. (edit: I know EFT != EVE, however it gives a point of reference, regardless) 1 - 12401 dmg received 2 - 9587 dmg received 3 - 9594 dmg received 4 - 12675 dmg received 5 - 7321 dmg received That is pretty interesting. First of all, the small changes could be differences in shield recharge amounts as you were dying. The bigger changes (between 9600 and 12400) could potentially be gang skills. The last one, however, is really messed up. It says that the lone attacker did 5721 damage, yet you took 7321 damage... Also Effective hit points are differen than real hitpoints. Read one of my previous posts, where i try to explain it. Edit: I also want to mention that my ship seemed to go down faster than it should, so I personally don't think it is simply an error in the recording of the killmails. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:39:00 - [18] Originally by: konjev clearly a fake, SCUM. doesn't undock Honestly i wasn't sure how to deal with this. I thought about just asking a Board Moderator to delete it for trolling, however, i tried to understand why you trolled in the first place. Do you want to see a rise out of me? Do you want me to try to defend my alliance as a whole, as you certainly generalized us through some probably rare occasions. I will simply say that i don't recall ever fighting Ray of Matar, or even seeing them. I have heard, on the other hand, that Ray of Matar hot-drop at every chance they get. As to my mail being a fake, it certainly isn't, and i'm not exactly trying to profit off it or turn it into some sort of advantageous opportunity. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Zebler Space Chimps	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:43:00 - [19] I am guessing that what is happening is more likely a logging issue of who did what and when, rather than you actually not need to take as much damage as necessary for you to be killed. Remember that armour repair modules cycle quite slowly. If one cycled at the right time(s) it may have given you more armour just when you needed it. Making it harder for them to kill you, and you therefore took more damage. This will be an interesting one to follow as you are not the only person to notice that dmg done on killmails is not always what it should be.

CCP Tuxford	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:07:00 - [20] Edited by: CCP Tuxford on 25/03/2009 22:06:59 First time I hear of anything like this. What might have happened is that it's simply targeting. For the first shots maybe half had you targeted but by the time your shield was getting depleted everybody had you locked and let rip. As for damage messages not adding up to the sum of the damage needed then I'm pretty sure that the client gets all the damage messages but it is definitely not displaying all of them as they'd just become a blur of messages and even more useless than they are right now (and I think they are pretty useless). I'm not sure how the log handles it tbh. And finally when it comes to logging. We could theoretically log everything you do in the game. The thing is logging isn't free so we have to choose very carefully what we want to log and what we can skip. Of course when it comes to your petition then it's never the stuff you're interested in that is being logged In conclusion: I really doubt there was anything out of the ordinary happening there except maybe damage messages not being fully logged but I will certainly keep my ears open for other reports of what appears to be erratic behaviour. Personally I think we should handle damage messages a bit differently but that's an entirely different story. Best regards tuxford ps. you got ganked dude _______________

The Riddik	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:07:00 - [21] lol nice one. 29k armor is eaten thru fast if the guys shooting at you have things like correctly fitted ships, damage mods, and level 5 skills, you nublet.
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:12:00 - [22] Originally by: The Riddik lol nice one. 29k armor is eaten thru fast if the guys shooting at you have things like correctly fitted ships, damage mods, and level 5 skills, you nublet. He didn't take issue with how fast it got chewed up but with the fact that the KM showed less than should have been necessary to destroy him. Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:27:00 - [23] Not sure when it started but all killmails i recieved during the last 2 weeks or so had suspiciously low hp. i think there is some bug in the km system or smthg. many friends have noticed the same. i think there was also another thread about it but i cba to find it. -- Originally by: Jasper Dark I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
Jack Dant Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Myra2007 Not sure when it started but all killmails i recieved during the last 2 weeks or so had suspiciously low hp. i think there is some bug in the km system or smthg. many friends have noticed the same. i think there was also another thread about it but i cba to find it. Yes, I posted a thread about how pod killmails since apocrypha had unusually low damage. Where a normal pod has around 300-400 hp, I've been seeing KMs with under 100 reported damage. There is also this post, about a fully fitted Kronos taking under 3k damage (killmail is on battleclinic if you want to check).
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:35:00 - [25] I thought by now everyone knew, killmails are bugged since apocrypha. I have been on plenty for 0 damage while my logs tell me i did do damage. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:44:00 - [26] Did you jump through a gate or dock and undock or anything like that? Because a session change will wipe out all damage done. IE if you jump through a gate with 10% hull left and you get killed, it will show as you only received that 10% hull damage. I've noticed that kms have started to spew out really low damage done numbers, maybe they aren't counting drone damage or something. You should look in your game logs (my docs -> eve-> gamelogs) and manually count the total damage was done to you. Oh yeah and it isn't an armor bug, you were within range of 10 BS (and a bunch of them are faction BS) and if they all primary correctly and have short range ammo and T2 skills, you are gonna die in 30 seconds. Not an armor bug at all, but a km damage calculation bug yeah maybe. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
Soi Mala	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:47:00 - [27] I have seen instances of this... battleships taking 9000damage total etc... i figured it was merely a cosmetic thing, the killmails being malformed or something, rather than seeing any real decrease in HP... I'l keep my eyes peeled for any future instances and try to bugreport it.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:48:00 - [28] Originally by: CCP Tuxford Personally I think we should handle damage messages a bit differently but that's an entirely different story. I'd love it you could simply turn off the on screen messages but still have the log show them. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman
Major Deviant	Posted - 2009.03.25 23:38:00 - [29] Edited by: Major Deviant on 25/03/2009 23:42:59 Killmails are broken atm. I had a 1v1 which I won surviving with 25% structure left, then I docked, repaired, undocked and got into a new 1v1 which I lost. In my loss killmail, my first victim shows up as doing damage to me in the second engagement where he was not even in the system, let alone that my ship was fully repaired.
D'ceet State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.03.25 23:55:00 - [30] tuxford made this thread 10 times better with the "PS, you got ganked dude!" Originally by: Popperr I resent the insinuation that we have intelligence, artificial or otherwise.

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